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Old 11-17-2008, 06:57 PM   #126
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

...you know Daito ryu lists seven forms of aiki and atemi is on the list.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:58 AM   #127
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Not always. There are one punch knock outs.
Yup...I have had the bruises and I agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zh1P...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAL24D04t0&NR=1

Yes there are and if one can find someone like Oyata Shihan to teach them the basics no one will ever question the effectiveness of your Atemi.

We're very fortunate to have Robert Bryner Sensei who is both a long time student of both Nishio Aikido and Ryu Te Kempo living in LA. He has blended the two very effectively.

knowing how and where to use Atemi in Aikido is of the upmost importance.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-18-2008 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:31 AM   #128
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

I agree

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:43 PM   #129
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Paul Wallace wrote: View Post
I must admit though, I'd hit 'em. lol
Me too. I also agree with you and Kevin.

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Old 11-19-2008, 08:31 PM   #130
salim
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Yup...I have had the bruises and I agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zh1P...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAL24D04t0&NR=1

Yes there are and if one can find someone like Oyata Shihan to teach them the basics no one will ever question the effectiveness of your Atemi.

We're very fortunate to have Robert Bryner Sensei who is both a long time student of both Nishio Aikido and Ryu Te Kempo living in LA. He has blended the two very effectively.

knowing how and where to use Atemi in Aikido is of the upmost importance.

William Hazen
Awesome. Sounds like excellent training exposure. Good Aikido, with excellent atemi, awesome combination. I enjoyed the videos.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:07 PM   #131
Lionel Mendez
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Re: Atemi weaknesses

May be nobody will ever read this thread again but I felt really really compelled to reply.

Dear Mr. Stenudd: I disagree completely with you. From my point of view your opinion conforms a very irresponsible comment in the context of the martial art of Aikido. I understand that you agree with Mr. Alexander Silva since I disagree with his comments as well. I will reply to his comments soon.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Alexander points out what I tried to explain in my posts.

Atemi is no guarantee of anything at all - it is just as difficult to learn as regular aikido pinnings and throws. Honestly, I have seen a lot of "waving of hands" pretending to be atemi that uke is supposed to react to. Naah... Just as with basic aikido techniques, kokyu is needed, and you have to practice hard and long before you have learned to do efficient and trustworthy atemi.
If you have seen "waving hands" it is because in those cases you have witnessed Aikido poorly executed. That doesn't mean that ATEMI IS not effective...that means that THEIR ATEMI was not effective. Oddly enough you don't state that difference.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Also, I have seen a lot of what I believe Alexander points out: People halt in the middle of a technique to make an atemi, and the only thing they accomplish is time for uke to counter. If you are on the way to complete a perfectly solid aikido technique, why interrupt it with an atemi?
If you are in the middle of a perfectly solid aikido technique, then how an atemi could interrupt it...since it is perfectly solid? If the technique is perfectly solid it can or cannot include an atemi and it should be your choice to perform atemi or not to perform it...if you're in control all the way...it is a matter of choice, of expression of the self...

Atemi should never interrupt a technique if executed properly, if by applying it, it does interrupt...then the technique is not "solid" enough. Atemi must complement it, amplify it, harmonize with it. The principle of atemi does not interrupt a technique, the poor execution of atemi will.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Maybe atemi is so much an established part of aikido that people do it without thinking about it - kata style: "There should be an atemi here, so I have to make sure to do it."
And is not the same for any other Aikido technique?
"There should be a kotegaeshi so I hold here, let me catch that hand...there must be a tenkan here so let me place the foot to pivot around...there's an Irimi here so let me enter and place the feet this way, put my hand here and move to this side so I can take off his balance...there's a nikkyo here so let's wait uke grabs my hand or lapel then I get his hand etc, etc..."

Or how anyone learn the basics of Aikido if not by thinking about it - kata style?

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I am often surprised by finding among aikidoists a disbelief in the aikido techniques
Quite frankly you are one of them, if one considers Atemi as a part of an aikido technique. Believe me, it is not hard, but sad for me to find a disbelief in the Atemi in aikido, especially from a person with your trajectory in aikido.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
so that they feel they must add something "trustworthy", like a punch in the face
First, to me is not rare to find a technique including a "punch in the face" in a martial art. In a tennis or ping-pong match may be, but not in a martial art.

Second, is not just for the sake of adding something "trustworthy"...if you look at it that way...you are telling me that you don't understand Atemi at all. Atemi is not a "punch in the face", to certain people it may look like that, but it depends on your view of YOUR aikido.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Trust the aikido techniques, and don't let atemi be an excuse to stop perfecting them.
Trust the atemi effectiveness...and don't let the lack of commitment and/or practice to be an excuse to not include it in your technique...continue to perfect those techniques...so well, so thorough, that you can seamlessly execute atemi without interrupting them. Practice diligently until the atemi blends with the technique and there is no breaking of flow, then you decide the level of "explicitness" you want for it.

Bottom line of my reply:

May be YOUR atemi interrupts your techniques, but that doesn't mean that Atemi interrupts aikido techniques. May be YOUR atemi doesn't work...but that doesn't mean Atemi is not effective.
I think you say that since it is not guarantee of anything at all you don't include it in your techniques...but I believe that since you don't want to include it in your techniques, then you say is not guarantee of anything at all.

And this is something you should be very clear and honest about. Even more so if you have taken teaching assignments.

Respectfully,

Lionel Mendez
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:52 PM   #132
Lionel Mendez
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Dear Mr. Silva,

I disagree with you.

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
Atemi is not needed, it's a waste of time.
That is a very bold statement.

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
The quicker you can get the person to the ground with a throw or pin the better. What's the saying..."crap or get off the pot." Using atemi breaks flow and timing for a good technique.
YOU using atemi may brake YOUR flow and timing for YOUR good technique. Atemi is as effective as the person who executes it.

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
The more time you waste on a person the more time you give them to respond. If you use an atemi there is not telling what his response is, he may react in a way you don't know.
Then you are not applying it properly. If by using atemi you fear the "uke" will react in a way you don't expect...then YOUR atemi is lacking something. If you don't apply atemi would you know invariably how "uke" will react?

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
What if the other person IS a marital artists and proceeds to respond in his style.
Then YOUR EGO could be shattered so I suppose you don't want to risk that.
You should be prepared for everything.

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
You're better off redirecting the situation before he can regain balance and coordination, at least in countering your flow you can counter back with a different flow.
Are you serious? It sounds like a formula or recipe..."and if he counteracts your counteracting flow then you counter-counteract that flow with a different flow..."

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
Besides, if you're using atemi you might as well just stick to striking until he's knocked out or on the ground; don't call it Aikido, it's just self-defense.
Why not calling it Aikido? What prevents the use of strikes to be called YOUR Aikido? Is it not possible to deliver a strike as a part of YOUR Aikido? What is the difference between self-defense and Aikido...just because you defended yourself NOT using fancy stuff...you ceased to be an Aikidoka?

If an intruder breaks in your home threatening your family, would you put your shotgun aside and engage him hand-to-hand to disable him with a pin and throw to say you used Aikido? Would you use the shotgun to blow the guy off but then for you it wouldn't be Aikido, you would stop from being and Aikidoka and put the Budo aside to just act in self-defense by pulling the trigger?

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
So my message: Perfect your technique and timing so you don't have to use atemi.
Why not: perfect your technique and timing so well that you can use Atemi without affecting your technique...then you can CHOOSE to use it or not use it at will as a matter of expression.

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
If you need it, you could not complete the technique but you defended yourself.
Why not? So if you use atemi you cannot complete the technique properly? But defended yourself succesfully but at the expense of not being an Aikidoka?

Quote:
Alexander Silva wrote: View Post
Congratulations. The point of Aikido is to learn to harmonize with attackers and find a peaceful resolution between both people, not enact violence because you fear for your life.
Really? IS THAT THE POINT?

Respectfully,

Lionel Mendez..
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:23 PM   #133
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Atemi weaknesses

Lionel Mendez,

I was thinking about replying, but it seems to me that you quote enough of my post for my views and my arguments to be evident.

Through the years, I've done my share of atemi, and it still happens. I notice, though, that I tend more and more to work on solutions where they are not necessary parts.
I find that rewarding.

Others come to other conclusions.

Yours,
Stefan

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:35 AM   #134
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Hello
It is a bit like arguing what colour is the fence between your respective properties. It is clear that you have not painted then in the same colour but nonetheless it is the same fence.

From my modest experience, in medieval fencing and wrestling and in aikido, comparing the virtue of atemi or non atemi does not mean much without context.

We could say that the more symmetrical the contest is, the more you will need your atemi to connect.
The more asymmetrical the context is the more the attacks of the opponent tend to be committed or at least in movement, in that case the less you will need your atemi to connect because the more you are committed the hardest it is for you to change what you are doing and the easier it is for your opponent to unbalance you.

I would say that If your opponent is waiting to snipe (counter) your, unless there is a great difference in skills, you will need connecting atemi.
I you opponent is more running or charging at you, you not need atemi that much.
pretty much the same as controlling with your point in german medieval fencing.

That being said
Timing and distance alone will never ever be sufficient when you are not using a weapon.
It works fine, even with sub-standard weapons like rapier or small sword, for example with a void (dodge) and strike to the wrist or counter thrust in the elbow articulation.

In open hand, you will be able to grab the hand using the same principle but you can not guaranty the immediately and the intensity of the damage inflicted, even when compared not very effective weapons.
As well most of the fencing manual you will find, do not advocated pure timing and distance, there will be a closing the line or angles that makes defence and attack difficult for your opponent.
Atemi is just a way to get that 3rd pieces, you can get it in other way, leading or pushing pulling in order to accentuate or create that in your opponent

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:24 AM   #135
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Atemi weaknesses

Quote:
Lionel Mendez wrote: View Post
Dear Mr. Stenudd: I disagree completely with you. From my point of view your opinion conforms a very irresponsible comment in the context of the martial art of Aikido. I understand that you agree with Mr. Alexander Silva since I disagree with his comments as well. I will reply to his comments soon.
I'm not sure what Sensei Stenudd's views are on the exact wording Mr. Silva used, but I'm pretty sure he supports the use of atemi and is simply arguing against relying on it too much at the expense of other aspects of aiki-waza. The momentary disruption atemi provides in our partners' structures certainly makes it easier to penetrate their structures further. However, I can see where from a training standpoint one might want to attempt control purely through other means. In katate tori or kata tori situations, for example, I might want to work on controling through that "grab" since I could conceivably be otherwise held in check. We cannot necessarily count on any one aspect of our training, and that is, i think, the message here...even something as dynamic and helpful as atemi.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-24-2009 at 10:29 AM.

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