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Old 02-17-2009, 09:21 AM
Peter A Goldsbury AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
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Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

INTERLUDE
V: The Danger of Words or,
The Elephant in the Dojo: Distinguishing the Jumbo from the Mumbo
Part 1: Morihei Ueshiba's Elephant
...
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Last edited by akiy : 02-16-2009 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:27 AM   #50
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
I put a response up on the Training forum so this wouldn't drift.
- George
Hi George
I am extremely hesitant to discuss anything on the general forum. What frequently is debated and questioned endlessly- somehow magically ends in about a minute and half in person. I'm tired of debating both what aiki is and what it can do with someone who is incapable of demonstrating anything other than more aikido waza. While that has proved to be an exercise in futility -it also explains quite succinctly Peter's examples of the failure in understanding much of Ueshiba's physical concepts in translations offered. And the reasons they are re-interpreted rather than translated by others into something actually useful to know. They are -regardless of their expertise in the language- never the less struggling to even understand the nature of the concepts they are attempting to translate! So the results may be catch as catch can.
So, what fits perfectly into the framework of Peter's column on translations also blends seamlessly with your observations of what has become a modern post-Ueshiba "form" of aikido.
I made a simple observation that many of the concepts that I had seen translated, made perfect sense, and others seemed anathema to what I know aiki to be. It stands to reason that Ueshiba's thoughts (many of which appear to match perfectly the type of training he would have undertaken in his studies with Takeda) would be entirely foreign and a mystery to those both in and outside of Japan, and that to include his own deshi. Again, I am increasingly of the opinion that Ueshiba- while maybe a bit "out there"- was not being as obscure as was previously believed.

Translation of a concept.
Peter's examples and my discussion of the ushiro aspects demonstrate a blatant and serious shift in focus between the two translations. One that just so happens to address much of the recent talk of internal aiki training so pervasive on the boards, and increasingly taking over the focus of people in the art. The Beiri's nail the concepts that rear techniques demand that type of training. Stevens offers the typical "step in the wrong direction" technique oriented view as practiced by many in the modern "form' of aikido.

Other things like "The divine cross of aiki" (again an actual training tool expressed in a T or an X) while colorfully called divine, none-the-less impart crucial information gone completely ignored in all available manuals and teaching in the larger aikido community.
I believe that Ueshiba was conveying ideas that perhaps properly translated, explained and trained would prove to be a foundational shift in the thought process and focus for training -even for his present deshi and what they seem to be practicing to this very day.
Hence, modern aikido form
Hence poor translation of concept and focus.

I hope you can see how this would lead me to be almost completely disinterested in a "form" developed and figured out by his deshi. Judging by what I have seen and felt I am convinced this form should be reworked and or as a focus of training-abandoned altogether.
IME, as "a form," it has little to do with what Ueshiba was doing in the first place. Since I had little investment in carrying it forward- I had no regrets at setting it aside either and getting on with the real work. In fact I think the "form" being preserved is by and large nothing more than a search by his deshi to mimic the effects he created on them and they fashioned that into the form seen today. Thankfully some pretty bold teachers are stepping outside of aikido to learn the way of aiki and in turn making their practice in aikido a study of real aiki once more..
If one truly understands the nature of what caused aiki to happen with those who fought Ueshiba, they would both understand more of what Ueshiba was doing and then in turn they could start to do themselves, and this would unlock the concepts that were nothing more than mysteries in the translated works. Hopefully, in time that may lead to capable men giving us more accurate translations of concepts they finally understand.
Neither of which has anything to do with aikido as a form. Something which Ueshiba repeatedly tried to free himself from.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-22-2009 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 02-22-2009, 04:59 PM   #51
Allen Beebe
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Ah . . . but the plot thickens! If Takada passed along Aiki to a few, and a bunch of recognizable forms to many, (Yeah, yeah, there are a bunch of Daito Ryu's but most of the stuff I've seen matches one for one with the Daito Ryu that my teacher was taught . . . so there are recognizable forms.) and Ueshiba passed along Aiki to even fewer, and bunch of recognizable forms to many, and if all of the confusion between one and the other could be "magically ended in about a minute and a half in person," why didn't they?

BTW, I think it perfectly possible to pass along the "concept" bereft of the content as well. One need not look farther than other related "internal arts" to see that that is possible.

Perhaps there ought to be reproducibility rules:
Rule #1: An individual must be able and willing to demonstrate the things he/she claims to know or do.
Rule #2: An individual must be able to create the conditions whereby another individual can pass Rule #1 before he/she can be recognized as a teacher.

Sounds simple to me!
Allen

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Old 02-22-2009, 06:31 PM   #52
stan baker
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Hi Allen,

Dan is one of the few people in rule#1 maybe the only one.

stan
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:16 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Hi Allen
Hope to hook up some day
I'll try to keep my answers relevant to the thread.
Quote:
and if all of the confusion between one and the other could be "magically ended in about a minute and a half in person," why didn't they?
Of course there are recognizable forms. But there is a reason why those who know always discuss aiki as being formless. There is no confusion.
And the better you get at the later the less you really care about the former. I think you need to review your history. The "they" you are referring to- being Takeda and Ueshiba? They not only managed to do just that- they themselves differentiated the two constantly to the point of talking about them as separate things and stressing the difference. Other unique DR teachers managed to pull of some VERY stunning displays of power sans waza as well. But I don't want to talk about that anymore.
If you were having a bit of fun with me over the "settled in a minute and half" comment regarding debates about aiki with those who focus on waza and discount aiki's immediate applicability and power? You're right. That comment wasn't accurate...it usually doesn't take that long.
And I'm not going to talk about that anymore either.

Quote:
BTW, I think it perfectly possible to pass along the "concept" bereft of the content as well. One need not look farther than other related "internal arts" to see that that is possible.
I agree completely with you. But I think you're making an addtional or separate point over the one Peter was making or alluding to and I expanded on.
1. We're are not talking about your example of student having someone explain those concepts and then expound on them- framed in context to their training method along with principles in-use which the student can't do yet as he may be just learning.
Instead
2. We are talking about men from another country reading about concepts a) they were not told about, b) were never explained to them c) were never framed in context to their direct training....and then having to try and figure out what that person meant and make it applicable...in another language.
Make sense? I think it's a different set of circumstances than the "educated idiots" we occasionally run into in the ICMA and so many other arts.
In closing and going back to aiki as a method distinct from waza. Stop and think, many of Takedas and Ueshiba's students were koryu people, military people, judoka,...men who had experience and exposure to some pretty significant heavyweights.
To my knowledge what impressed those educated men most about Takeda and Ueshiba....wasn't technique. It was their aiki power, stated over and over. and that came from the body method-"the concepts" referred to here in our discussion. The "concepts" either rarely if ever talked about publicly, or as Peter so clearly demonstrated....that can get "Translated" into uselessness.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-22-2009 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:27 PM   #54
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Allen,

Dan is one of the few people in rule#1 maybe the only one.

stan
Stan,
No one disputes Dan's ability but you need to be careful about drinking the Cool Aid.
- George

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Old 02-22-2009, 07:28 PM   #55
Allen Beebe
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Dan is one of the few people in rule#1 maybe the only one.
Oh darn! And here I thought I was "the one."

While admirable in the sense of "testifying," and most assuredly well intended, this is the very sort of statement that plagues Dan and others.

Virtually anyone can claim *here* to do or understand just about anything. It is virtually impossible to prove that understanding *here.* Furthermore, others can support the claims of others but everything carries about the same weight *here.* Hence the miracle of 1 1/2 minute understanding IN PERSON.

At any rate your statement assumes too much I think. It assumes that you know what Dan claims to know or do. (In other words, Dan isn't making the statement for himself, you are.) It assumes that either I know what Dan claims to know or do or that I trust that you do. It assumes that you are qualified to judge if Dan can do what he claims to know or do and it assumes that I trust your judgement. I think a reasonable person could see why just about any of these assumptions could be called into question.

Finally, the phrase "maybe the only one," while provocative, also implies the counter phrase, "or maybe not." While far better than claiming that he IS the only one, which would imply that you know of all others, it still isn't that strong of a statement.

All that having been said, we are straying far off of the subject of this thread. That certainly was not the intent of my post.

So, assuming that Takeda and Ueshiba, Ueshiba being the subject of this thread . . . or his writing at least, satisfied Rule #1 and seemingly Rule #2 with some, were his writings (which ones?) intended for the consumption of the chosen few, for everyone but "Aiki Content Free," or for everyone but only those Rule #2 recipients would truly realize what he was saying?

Allen
(BTW Stan, I would enjoy meeting Dan someday and would certainly hope to benefit from the meeting. )

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 02-22-2009 at 07:35 PM. Reason: bad typing

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Old 02-22-2009, 07:40 PM   #56
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Oh for Petes sake
Hey...for ...Petes sake can we "can" these referrences to me. This has nothing to do with the thread.
Stan, how does this possibly relate to the topic? I avoided Allen's comment all together as I don't think it was on point to the thread in the first place.
In the second place his comment doesn't involve me anyway....gees.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:57 PM   #57
Allen Beebe
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Allen
Hope to hook up some day
Let's! I'm always ready to learn . . . or at least I try to be.

I'll try to keep my answers relevant to the thread.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Of course there are recognizable forms. But there is a reason why those who know always discuss aiki as being formless. There is no confusion.
And the better you get at the later the less you really care about the former.
Agreed

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think you need to review your history.
Pretty much always.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The "they" you are referring to- being Takeda and Ueshiba? They not only managed to do just that- they themselves differentiated the two constantly to the point of talking about them as separate things and stressing the difference.
Yes, but you have the know the difference to recognize it for the most part.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Other unique DR teachers managed to pull of some VERY stunning displays of power sans waza as well. But I don't want to talk about that anymore.
Feel free to PM me. I love a good story!

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you were having a bit of fun with me over the "settled in a minute and half" comment regarding debates about aiki with those who focus on waza and discount aiki's immediate applicability and power? You're right. That comment wasn't accurate...it usually doesn't take that long.
I wasn't poking fun, in this rare instance, but I'm sure you are right.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We are talking about men from another country reading about concepts a) they were not told about, b) were never explained to them c) were never framed in context to their direct training....and then having to try and figure out what that person meant and make it applicable...in another language.
Well that assumes a lot, but for the most part I tend to agree.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In closing and going back to aiki as a method distinct from waza.
Are you sure you want to use the word "distinct?" How can the Aiki body be distinct from your waza?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Stop and think, many of Takedas and Ueshiba's students were koryu people, military people, judoka,...men who had experience and exposure to some pretty significant heavyweights.
To my knowledge what impressed those educated men most about Takeda and Ueshiba....wasn't technique. It was their aiki power, stated over and over. and that came from the body method-"the concepts" referred to here in our discussion. The "concepts" either rarely if ever talked about publicly, or as Peter so clearly demonstrated....that can get "Translated" into uselessness.
Actually, you are virtually quoting me here from years back so we are certainly in agreement.

Still, I enjoy the academic discourse (I learn from it) while maintaining the opinion that nothing much will be resolved conclusively here even if I thought conclusiveness were achievable . . . which I don't.

BTW, sorry if this is incomprehensible . . . it is bed time in the Beebe houshold and my kids are climbing on me and singing in my ears.

Not that I mind that much!

Allen

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Old 02-22-2009, 08:36 PM   #58
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Still, I enjoy the academic discourse (I learn from it) while maintaining the opinion that nothing much will be resolved conclusively here even if I thought conclusiveness were achievable . . . which I don't.
Are we saying that the conversation with a tradition, of whatever vintage, is pointless? But the fact remains the old man wouldn't shut up, nor would those who he spoke to and trained. How then does one converse on such a topic -- if not with what was given? I dare say they -- and he -- took more than a minute and a half in trying to provoke -- not end -- that conversation -- because the subject is worth more than that -- and contains more than that. IHTBF is a given -- as the beginning and recurrent recourse of the discussion -- not the end of it. There is a certain impatience in proceeding that will deny the full measure of the process. Is that not the problem, throughout, from both a physical bias, as well as an intellectual or emotional one. ?

I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid.

G.K Chesterton

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:00 PM   #59
stan baker
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

I am not the one drinking the cool aid, I think the aikido world is in a dream. What I said has to do with this thread, transmission, inheritance, emulation and I will add one more important thing, teaching. I just say it the way I see it I donot have a dream to protect.

stan
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:26 PM   #60
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Since we agree on most everything lets skip to the one thing more substantive and interesting-aiki.

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Are you sure you want to use the word "distinct?" How can the Aiki body be distinct from your waza?
Not quite what I meant.
There are many great MAers or fighters with no aiki.
I was pointing out (in response to your post) that these two men were known for their aiki-power. And that it was distinct, and impressive enough to set these men apart from some incredibly talented Budo men as judged by some incredibly talented Budo men. In an age when being "the teacher" didn't nearly cut it.

Here's a little thought that also ties in with Peters column, that is probably going to fall as flat as most everything else I said.
Again going back to concepts, and translations.
I just do not think that the majority of men get it anymore. I think most guys have never felt or faced men with world class power, real power- not dojo nonsense. For that reason, they neither see, nor feel, any compelling reason to believe that these two guys were truly giants, and...that they had an understanding of a concept that was beyond their reckoning. Hence, in their minds there is nothing unusual to be researched, had or understood- so they don't even look for it.

I also think its the reason we are losing our heritage from these arts that being...aiki. Aiki power is real, it is formidable, it is formless and transends all the arts, into modern grappling. Most not having that experience, just assign that "aiki stuff" they felt from their local aikido teacher as aiki power and check it off as "done." So its hard to get folks to understand here is something substantial, and unsual, in our heritage to be had in the first place and then once believed to train in it. And that if they trained it they could stand in rooms with the best Aiki men Budo has to offer and have them try and take their measure of you and have it come to naught. And it can be had without the twenty year apprenticeships everyone is requiring to "get it.".
Just a thought.
Quote:
BTW, sorry if this is incomprehensible . . . it is bed time in the Beebe houshold and my kids are climbing on me and singing in my ears.
Not that I mind that much!
Allen
God I miss those days. Enjoy them bud.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-22-2009 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:55 PM   #61
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Mr Skaggs,

Thank you for your post. Hre are a few thoughts by way of an answer.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Professor Goldsbury,

What is your opinion of the following thoughts.:

.1. The illness and death of O'Sensei's father as a major influence in changing his budo(?) journey from a search for maximum martial effectiveness to an expression of his religious beliefs.
PAG. I think you would need to connect the death of his father with the meeting with Onisaburo Deguchi in Ayabe. After the great fire in Shirataki, Ueshiba set about rebuilding, but at some point word reached him of his father's illness and he set out to return to Tanabe. There is evidence that he had already heard about the Omoto religion and so, making a detour to Ayabe was not quite so unexpected as it might appear. However, I do not think you can consider his father's death in isolation from this.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
2. An ongoing change in usage and meaning of the words he used, because of the ongoing developement of his religious thoughts, as a source of confusion to his students.
PAG. I think this might be possible if we could date the discourses with any degree of certainty. We can do this to some extent with Deguchi (and with Kisshomaru Ueshiba, after the war), but I think it very difficult to do this with Morihei Ueshiba, partly because of the enormous editing process that has already taken place.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 02-23-2009, 12:32 PM   #62
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Peter
If those discourses have been edited to death than what's the point of even starting...oy!! Is there no means to access the original writings? Or did Ueshiba not write anything out and it was subject to "on the spot interpretation" of a largely ignorant audience?

I was always less interested in the form of his religious conversion and all the lectures attached to it, and more interested in where and how the physical result was manifested. In addition to that, where, in the midst of his long winded dissertations was he perhaps offering concrete advice on how to's to a largely disinterested crew, and the information was going right over their heads.
I can see discussions of "being one with the expanding universe" and "breathing in tune with universe" as his version of discussing (or trying to discuss) Daito ryu's aiki in yo ho a breath power training method. But the breath-power is is just a part of some other serious prior training in order to make it even viable. In other places where people are struggling to gain an understanding, of all the varous training methods Ueshiba himself went through and used, reveals that many of his thoughts and words regardning physical training are not in fact difficult to understand and are pointing in the direction every student needs to arrive at.
Example:
Quote:
Peter writes:10. 己が身をかはす為に敵が倒れる様に練習を積む事が必要である。
Onore ga mi wo kahasu tame ni teki ga taoreru yo ni renshu wo tsumu koto ga hitsuyo de aru.
[To accomplish this] it is necessary to gain training experience until you are able to take him off balance when you turn your body.
NOTES:
A. Again, Ueshiba stresses the importance of training and this is underlined by his use of the verb 積む tsumu, which generally means to pile up, stack, load something on to a vehicle, or accumulate by means of repeated activity. The sense here is of constant and repeated training until the response is completely second nature—in the same way that Ueshiba himself was able to discern the intentions of the attacker. He is definitely not talking about waza here, though he does use the term 術 in the next section.
B. Teki ga taoreru敵が倒れるis translated here as ‘take him off balance' and this is closer to the original meaning than the Stevens translation (see below). The real sense of the Japanese is that you train in order to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the enemy ‘falls'. This might well involve ‘taking his balance'—but does not necessarily involve throwing or executing waza. To see the issues here, consider the Aikido Journal interview with Minoru Inaba, about projecting power, and also the classic way that Gozo Shioda projects ‘power', in such a way that the uke simply bounces off him, as mentioned above. Of course, in some sense Shioda ‘throws' his uke, but in my opinion he responds to his uke's attack—and uke falls, as is stated in this section. The additional element here is that the attacker is behind, not in front, but the dynamics are the same.
The real key is the nature of the trained body that turns and how it affects those trying to move it. The normsl person trying it would recult in nothin happening. Hence the misunderstanding. As one of my teachers used to say when a normally traind person tried some of these things?
Dooo..esn't work!

I would not necessarily join those two practices; the Shioda bump and the body turn- together. Although they are sides of the same coin, there are different methods to train them. The straight bump is easier and comes sooner than training cross-line bodywork in drawing and turning the body as a unit. You're right that the chest bump isn't necessarily "a waza or technique" but it does involve waza aspects of timing and entry in a way that "simply turning your body and they turn" does not. The later example of "turning and they turn" will not work without all the attributes of the former in place but it's a purer aspect of the body quality. Some guys fall apart as the control goes out from center to hands-the connections fail. Again though kind of sides of the same coin.
Training
Ueshiba correctly pointed, and you correctly translated that it is in training the body. (Again we see the idea of focus on the body and mind instead of technique) It was his focus of training the body as a prerequisite for what he discusses later-that being to be able to manage rear attacks. That they, by their nature, demanded that body training. You are right in stating / interpreting/ translating (good God Peter better you than me) that the term "take him off balance" is more than technique. It is more correctly considered or viewed as the result of "matching" your trained body, with their energy / intent. The more correct translation is as an effect in carrying the trained body that causes an affect on the person grabbing pushing etc and not in a technique. Some aspects in feel is the negative side feels very ghosty and magnetic and the positive side is soft power that is compelling and hard to source to counter it. It is the combination of the two happening at the same time that is quite controlling on the uke.

So yes Peter I agree that your translation correctly expresses Ueshiba's idea; that one needed to train the body in order to unify the mind / body spirit in movement and it is that body that creates that effect of them turning when he turns. NOT doing waza to try and make it happen
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-23-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:16 PM   #63
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Quote:
武道練習Budo Renshu, Translated by Larry & Seiko Bieri, Japan Publications Trading Company, 1978. (Alas, this bilingual edition is no longer in print and the only second-hand copy I have seen was priced at over US$ 750. A ‘bowdlerized' edition, shorn of all the Japanese, is available, entitled Budo Training in Aikido.)
FYI -- A note for those out there who are truly craz... [cough] passionate and wish to own a copy of the above bilingual edition; there is one available on e-bay right now. [about 14 hours to go and with a "buy it now" price below the one Peter quotes above.

-Doug Walker
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:27 PM   #64
DH
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

I can't find it in the search category
It was under Budo trainng in aikido

http://cgi.ebay.com/DELUXE-BUDO-TRAI...3A1%7C294%3A50

Dan

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Old 02-23-2009, 07:07 PM   #65
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Hello Doug,

If the book is the same as the one that Dan has pointed to, it is $2,000. The one I saw on Amazon Japan's site was 68,000 yen, which is just over $700. Alas, this book is no longer available--perhaps there are some Japanese readers of this column. So I am so glad that I bought my copy when I did. It cost 10,000 yen, which is just over $105 at the present exchange rate and it has been signed. Not, alas by the author himself, but by a Hombu shihan who knew him well (and who gives the 'secret' meaning of , and ).

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
FYI -- A note for those out there who are truly craz... [cough] passionate and wish to own a copy of the above bilingual edition; there is one available on e-bay right now. [about 14 hours to go and with a "buy it now" price below the one Peter quotes above.
PAG

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Old 02-23-2009, 07:08 PM   #66
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

I sent you [dan] the item # and link in a PM.

This is a different listing.

Last edited by Walker : 02-23-2009 at 07:10 PM. Reason: clarified for Peter & Dan's benefit

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Old 02-23-2009, 09:04 PM   #67
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Got it
Thanks Doug
Still way too much. I see it as a curiosity only and a nice addition to my library. It's just not worth that much money to me.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:13 PM   #68
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

I understand that.

So, in case anyone else is interested and since it seems to be hard to find the listing here is the link for item #180329740595:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

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Old 02-23-2009, 10:02 PM   #69
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Professor Goldsbury,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to write these wonderful articles. I literally laughed out loud when I read, "How to open your stone door by listening to the gods", it just seems so absurd when taken at face value in English. I do have a question or more likely a topic of discussion I would like to ask about.

Quote:
武人は常に神に祈りを忘れず、鎮魂帰神法による技を会得し言振れせずに悟り行うことである。小戸の神業(おどのかむわざ)とは、舌三寸の天之村雲[FONT=Times] (あめのむらくも)の神剣である。言霊(ことたま)で人を生かす事も殺す事も自由に使えるという。言霊は神剣である。舌の奥に心あり。精気のこもった言霊は、相手の技をも 止める事ができるという。神秘の技ともいえ るのである。
A man of budo never fails to pray to the deities. He can become skilled in waza by means of calming the soul and returning to the deity, and reach enlightenment without the use of language. The divine waza of the small door (= mouth?) is the divine sword of Ame no Murakumo, which is an eloquent tongue. It is said that word-spirit can be used freely to kill people and give life. Kotodama is the divine sword. One's tongue is filled with the spirit. The word spirit that is full of energy is said to be able to stop the waza of the opponent—we can say that these are mysterious waza.
What is the divine waza of the small door? I am assuming that (=mouth?) is your addition. From the description it is kotodama. Or possibly kiai? There are all those mythical stories of birds being taken out of the air by a well timed kiai.
I was also curious about the eloquent tongue, as if someone is charismatic enough to stop someones waza. Or that it takes some skill with the tongue to use kotodama?
I have been trying to find another reference in another doka but sadly all I own are the Stevens translations and my Japanese ability is not enough to hold decent a conversation let alone go searching on Google. I was hoping you had some more insight into the matter or that you know of a source that discusses it. I already looked through Gleason's first book to no avail and Amazon still hasn't delivered his second.

Thank you again for you time and effort. As well as your candor in contrast to the deification of O sensei and his heirs espoused by some.

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Old 02-24-2009, 02:20 AM   #70
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

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Professor Goldsbury,

What is the divine waza of the small door? I am assuming that (=mouth?) is your addition. From the description it is kotodama. Or possibly kiai? There are all those mythical stories of birds being taken out of the air by a well timed kiai.
I was also curious about the eloquent tongue, as if someone is charismatic enough to stop someones waza. Or that it takes some skill with the tongue to use kotodama?
I have been trying to find another reference in another doka but sadly all I own are the Stevens translations and my Japanese ability is not enough to hold decent a conversation let alone go searching on Google. I was hoping you had some more insight into the matter or that you know of a source that discusses it. I already looked through Gleason's first book to no avail and Amazon still hasn't delivered his second.
Hello Brad,

There is another reference to odo no kamuwaza in the writings collected in the Takemusu Tsugen blog. It appears in the section entitled Budo Misogi no Maki (Buro Misogi Scroll) and its provenance is stated to be 伝書 (written transmission) from Morihei Ueshiba to Michio Hikitsuchi. (However, I doubt whether it is a direct quotation.) In Budo Misogi no Maki 7, there is the following reference to odo no kamuwaza (in bold):

合息が合気と生まれ、火風水がアオウエイと結び合せて言魂となりて、合気道が世にヒビキ即ち小戸の神業(おどのかむわざ)となりしもの也。地上現界の争いのない道を示す為に、また弋(ほこ)を止どめる武の道を世人に示す為に素盞嗚尊(すさのおのみこと)の御分身として生まれられたのではないかと思われる 開祖植芝翁は神の化身にましますのではないだろうか。即ち武神の大手力王尊(たじからおのみこと)と現われ給う。翁は人として、この世に生まれられた以上は人並以上の修行 の道をふませられたのである。

The sentence in bold reads: Aikido ga yo ni hibiki sunawachi odo no kamuwaza to narishimono... = Aikido is a hibiki to the world. In other words, it is divine operation of the odo.

Hibiki has a wide range of meanings, all to do with sounds, the type of sound depending on what causes it (e.g., boom, peal, explosion, reverberation, hoofbeat, echo, vibration, hence, accoustics). A transferred meaning is the effect of the sound. The example given is the vibrations of an avalanche: 雪崩の響きが全身に伝われてきた。The vibrations [thunder] of the avalanche shook (were transmitted through) my whole body.

I hope this explains the phrase a little more.

Best wishes,

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Old 02-24-2009, 07:31 PM   #71
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

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Peter
If those discourses have been edited to death than what's the point of even starting...oy!! Is there no means to access the original writings? Or did Ueshiba not write anything out and it was subject to "on the spot interpretation" of a largely ignorant audience?

Cheers
Dan
Hello Dan,
I am racing to meet Jun's deadline for Column 12, due on Mar 1, so I will be brief.

I am pretty certain there is a lot of 'raw' material. When Sadateru Arikawa died, for example, tons of stuff were taken away from his house and I gather that all this is in a safe place. The present Doshu once told me that there are archives in the Hombu that no one has time to touch. So I am scratching the surface of what will be a very longterm undertaking.

I think that, for better for worse, aikido is still going through a maturation process and that its scope will be clearer when Mitsuteru is 4th Doshu than it is now. We are still too close to O Sensei, in a sense, and people panic if we deviate too far from the party line. People in high places need to settle down and relax more.

Best,

PAG

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Old 02-24-2009, 10:46 PM   #72
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Hello Brad,

Well, as a start here are three douka relating to odo no kamuwaza and iwato biraki, only one of which is discussed by Prof Stevens.

かんながら赤白玉やますみ玉合気の道は小戸の神技

たたえてもたたえ盡せぬさむはらの合気の道は小戸の神技

三千世界一度に開く梅の花二度の岩戸は開かれにけり

As for a translation, I have a prior duty to Japanese students of this forum, to see what they can come up with .

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:
Brad Darr wrote: View Post
Professor Goldsbury,

I have been trying to find another reference in another doka but sadly all I own are the Stevens translations and my Japanese ability is not enough to hold decent a conversation let alone go searching on Google.

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Old 02-25-2009, 02:43 PM   #73
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Professor Goldsbury,

Thank you for your reply. The quote about hibiki was very insightful.
Quote:
The sentence in bold reads: Aikido ga yo ni hibiki sunawachi odo no kamuwaza to narishimono... = Aikido is a hibiki to the world. In other words, it is divine operation of the odo
.
Could it also mean that Aikido is an echo of the world or that Aikido is an echo of the kotodama SU that created the world?

As for the doka I need to really dig in and put my Japanese skills to the test but from a cursory glance the first references the red and white jewels. The third talks about opening the stone door and 3000 worlds and plum blossoms. Hopefully some other people can help with the translation, I will post what I come up with as soon as I pin it down. I also noted the difference between 小戸の神技, from the doka and 小戸の神業 from your online sources. This is the same change that you mentioned in the article for ushirowaza.

Also I have been looking through various online dictionaries (wwwjdic etc. ) for 小戸 and all I can come up with are place names Odogawa etc.

I still wonder what exactly is this "small door", is it the mouth as was mentioned in the original article. Is it an analogy to the stone door from the Kojiki? Or is the sound of the stone door? Or SU.

In light of quote above it seems that Aikido is the divine operation of the small door. Which to me seems important. I realize you are busy polishing what will most assuredly be another thought provoking article but I was hoping you could explain what, if any importance you find in 小戸の神業.

Thank you again for you time and effort.

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no one knows which is which
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Old 02-25-2009, 04:55 PM   #74
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Re: Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 11

Hello Brad,

Indeed. In a number of places, Ueshiba refers to kotodama as involved in creation. The quote below is from Masahisa Goi, but Morihei Ueshiba believed the same thing.

2. 五井先生は、言霊とは、文字や音声にいずる想念以前のひびき、即ち光そのもののひびき、神である、音声や文字に出た時はすでに言霊の役目、働きが果たされあとのものである、と説明して下さいました。
Goi Sensei wa, kotodama to wa, moji ya onsei ni izuru sonen izen no hibiki, sunawachi hikari sonomono no hibiki, kami de aru, onsei ya moji ni deta toki wa sudeni kotodama no yakume, hataraki ga hatasare ato no mono de aru, to setsumei shite kudasaimashita.
Goi Sensei bestowed on us the explanation that word-soul was prior to words and voiced sounds, in other words, that word soul was the deity that vibrated light itself, and that the time that it came forth in sounds and letters was the remains of the previous working of word-soul.

PAG

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