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Old 02-12-2009, 09:42 AM   #26
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

I have become vary interested recently in the striking methods of Aikido. In my searching online I found this interveiw with Yutaka Kurita Shihan-

http://www.aikidoonline.com/index2.a...res/Kurita.htm

-specifically the small discussion on proper striking for Aikido. I would be very greatful for insights on this and further information. Also while we are near the subject. I remember reading (I believe in one of Shioda Sensei's books; I can't be sure) that O'sensei himself "demonstrated powerful kicks" but that since it is easier to teach rooting ones center to the ground through two legs, after he died, Aikikai abandoned teaching them. Or something along those lines. ANY information on this would be AWSOME. Thank you.

Cpl. P. N. Wallace

Kijinkan school founder & instructor
Aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:41 AM   #27
ChrisMoses
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Disclaimers: I'm no master at any of this, this is just what I'm working on now, I don't claim to get all of the deep underlying concepts, I will probably not state this very clearly... blah, blah, blah...

Jeremy and I were actually talking about this a couple weeks ago, so he knows what I'm going to write here, but I figured I'd throw this out to the board since he started this thread.

A lot of my current take on striking has come from the Aunkai spearing/punching exercise. I've been playing with different versions of this exercise to try and focus in on the actual mechanism of the strike. However I'm doing the exercise (slowly, fast as possible, repeating strikes, single strikes/spears, with bo, without bo...) I have been trying to focus on the sensation of weight through the heels just before the strike followed by a tension/stretch through the lower abdominal area that I try to 'fly' the arm out and forward. There is no waist or hip twist going on (other than a very slight squaring if I'm transitioning from the back leg to the front) while the arm goes out. The sensation is that of pressure building (typically) from the rear heel and kind of connecting with the abdomen, then the pressure seems to allow the arm to fly out with minimal muscular intent in the arm itself. At the end of the strike I feel a kind of pressure echo between the fist and the heel of the rear leg (if I did it right). This pressure would be analogous to a rubber band reaching the end of it's stretch and beginning to contract inwards. Or perhaps a better analogy would be a balloon. If you push down on the top of the balloon quickly and forcefully, it expands outwards equally 90 degrees from the push and then contracts back equally to its relaxed state.

So that's what I'm working on. I try to steer clear of any of the CMA terms since I never seem to use them right. As my daughter says, "Daddy's not very good at Chinese..."

Anybody out there playing with striking and the basic kettlebell swing? I wouldn't call that an IMA thing, but it's interesting too.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:45 PM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Paul Wallace wrote: View Post
I have become vary interested recently in the striking methods of Aikido. In my searching online I found this interveiw with Yutaka Kurita Shihan-

http://www.aikidoonline.com/index2.a...res/Kurita.htm

-specifically the small discussion on proper striking for Aikido. I would be very greatful for insights on this and further information. Also while we are near the subject. I remember reading (I believe in one of Shioda Sensei's books; I can't be sure) that O'sensei himself "demonstrated powerful kicks" but that since it is easier to teach rooting ones center to the ground through two legs, after he died, Aikikai abandoned teaching them. Or something along those lines. ANY information on this would be AWSOME. Thank you.
Nice interview, Paul. Thanks. I tend to agree that Ueshiba did things (in terms of hitting/striking) differently than Tohei and some others. There's a video taken in about 1935 in which O-Sensei is doing some demo's in fairly formal garb, including tachiwaza, kenjutsu (with bokuto), etc. During the kenjutsu portion you can see that he's been taught (somewhere; I have no idea where) how to use the classic store-and-release techniques to some degree. Undoubtedly he would have used that same foundation for atemi. I have never seen any video of Tohei doing that sort of release and my personal *guess* (that's all it is) is that Tohei was never taught this sort of thing. In later life videos of O-Sensei it's very difficult to deduce much from his movements because he had by then ingrained them closer to the point of "stillness in motion; motion in stillness", so it would have been hard for a post-war student to perhaps grab this method.

I don't know what to say about the purported powerful kicks. I was watching a video (on a DVD) yesterday that showed me a striking example of just how powerful O-Sensei's legs were. So were his kicks from strong legs and technique or were they because he also knew how to use breath exercises to boost the power of his kicks? We'll probably never know.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:00 PM   #29
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Jeremy,
There are many types and methods of striking. Different methods result in different results. A starting question would be what result are you attempting to accomplish? The answer to that question will direct the answers.

Mark J.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:29 PM   #30
xuzen
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy
I did try some Krotty (Shorin-Ryu) and the way they thought me how to punch was ..... very stiff and not lively.

However I think the western style type of boxing is very good way of learning how to punch.

Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:34 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
I did try some Krotty (Shorin-Ryu) and the way they thought me how to punch was ..... very stiff and not lively.

However I think the western style type of boxing is very good way of learning how to punch.

Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times.
That was pure heresy, Boon. You have betrayed your heritage!

Mike
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:08 PM   #32
xuzen
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That was pure heresy, Boon. You have betrayed your heritage!

Mike
Mike,

I don't care as I found out that Western Style boxing is a very good methodology of learning how to punch.

My punches are faster, more powerful with lower recovery time, in a nut shell: very efficient.

Also, the footwork is very good as oppose to krotty which advocate rootedness. Standing there rock solid like a mountain is just plain invitation to receive punishment (punches). Moving around, bobbing and weaving in and out is better to avoid getting punched.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:16 AM   #33
Upyu
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times
Man,
If I got a nickel for every time I hit a grappler using only "arm", no hips, and flooring them... (From a feet parallel stance)

Actually someone I know recently (that hits like a dump truck) said:
Him: You know humans only have two legs right? Well what if you had three legs, and had Tripod like balance

Me: You'd totally pwn people due to the "power" derived from the superior balance

Him: Right, but you don't have three legs.
<downs his beer>
But actually you do.
Oops...think I said too much. If you can figure that one out..well I'll give you +1 for not having a vacuum inside that thing you call a head.
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Old 02-13-2009, 08:01 AM   #34
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Boxing punches are one method of striking. One big advantage is the relative ease of gaining some degree of proficiency in a short period of time.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
My punches are faster, more powerful with lower recovery time, in a nut shell: very efficient.
As for efficiency I guess that is in the eyes of the beholder. Correct me if I am wrong but after a boxing style strike the striker must retract his fist/arm before striking again. I do not see that as overly efficient.

Nor do I see the power delivery method in a boxing style strike as being overly efficient. Test: stand on one leg in front of your partner, place you fist about 12 inches from his chest or midsection. Without retracting the fist and or placing the other foot on the ground strike him and see the results. IMO, an efficient method of striking can deliver a powerful and penetrating punch within these parameters. None of the boxes I have done this with can generate anything of substance.

There are many methods for striking, each with it's advantages, disadvantages and uses.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:32 AM   #35
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Mark,
Thanks for asking. Nice to hear from you and I hope that you are doing well.

I have not been much of a puncher during my time in martial arts...too much aikido

I'm interested in in hitting as practice that allows me to examine and refine other parts of my training.

If I choose to hit how do I cause the most disruption with the least effort and still maintain the ability to grapple/control my opponent.

I've been working on the Aunkai type strikes that come out of spear thrusting and still spending most of that time working on form, and connection to the ground.

best
Jeremy

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:50 AM   #36
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I don't know what to say about the purported powerful kicks. I was watching a video (on a DVD) yesterday that showed me a striking example of just how powerful O-Sensei's legs were. So were his kicks from strong legs and technique or were they because he also knew how to use breath exercises to boost the power of his kicks? We'll probably never know.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Which video? Arigato

Cpl. P. N. Wallace

Kijinkan school founder & instructor
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Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:40 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Paul Wallace wrote: View Post
Which video? Arigato
Starting around 7:25 on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Mike
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:48 PM   #38
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
Mark,
Thanks for asking. Nice to hear from you and I hope that you are doing well.
Jeremy, I am doing well, thanks for asking. Very busy as my company was sold on December 30th, hence all of us need to reprove our worth to the new masters. Plus many of the deals I had in progress are coming to fruition, hence lots of travel. But no complaints it is fun to see months and years of work turning into success.

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I'm interested in in hitting as practice that allows me to examine and refine other parts of my training.
You are reading my mind on this one. That was my focus for 2008 and still. My focus in 2008 was how to make the mechanics and principles of striking, stand up grappling and ground grappling the same. That way I could train and improve in all three at the same time. I decided a few years ago to strive for laziness, hence I want everything to be as similar as possible to cut down on the work and effort.

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
If I choose to hit how do I cause the most disruption with the least effort and still maintain the ability to grapple/control my opponent.

I've been working on the Aunkai type strikes that come out of spear thrusting and still spending most of that time working on form, and connection to the ground.
I believe there are multiple methods for causing disruption with the least amount of effort. To some degree this is a personal preference item, to another degree it involves the opportunity to learn from someone of knowledge.

For the method you are pursuing I am of no help. My understanding of the Aunkai spear method is limited to one seminar which means I understand nothing of their method. I will say their frame, form, structure is very similar if not the same as what I do but how that frame, form, structure is used and to what affect seems to be different. But to be honest I do not have the knowledge or experience of the Aunkai method to make any clear distinction.

One profound result of my experience to the Aunkai method was the position Ark continually moved my hips into. The position was the exact same that Vladimir had been doing for years. At this point I said to my self "Dumb axx, you now have two top notch guys showing you the same thing. Perhaps it is time you actually pay attention." For me, by focusing on this correction for a period of time I was able to access many other aspects of my training at a higher level.

The interesting thing to me is that the more I learn about frame, form, structure, the more I learn how to create it from any position, shape or place. I had to learn first by learning from a perfect frame, form, structure, but the more I feel the connections through the body and how to build them easier it is to build that connection regardless of the frame, form, structure.

I will be out in Portland for a day or two next month but unfortunately it does not look like I will make it up your direction. Otherwise I would be happy to strike you. For educational purpose of course.

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:12 PM   #39
TomW
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
I will be out in Portland for a day or two next month but unfortunately it does not look like I will make it up your direction.
Mark,

You're welcome to come play with us when you're in Portland.

PM me if you're interested.

Tom Wharton

Kodokan Aikido - Puttin' the Harm in Harmony,
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