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Old 02-08-2009, 05:13 PM   #1
Jeremy Hulley
Dojo: Seattle School of Aikido Shinto Ryu/Seattle Icho Ryu
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How are you hitting/punching?

This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:31 PM   #2
Budd
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

I think of stretching and compressing portions of the body to maximize the ground/hand connection and using gravity directed by the middle to coordinate and amplify all those things so that the body moves (delivering these 'forces') as one unit - the main thing being the gravity/ground powers with the other things as additives. Because there's so much going on - I'm not really worrying about how "hard" I'm hitting, but more how "right".
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:26 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.
If I told you, I'd have to kill you, Jeremy. Nah.... the problem is that like a lot of things it's not all that complicated, but you'd have to understand the background. Sorta like a certain riff on the guitar in A-minor is simple logically... as long as you have some basic background in guitar and music theory. That sort of thing.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:38 PM   #4
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Because there's so much going on - I'm not really worrying about how "hard" I'm hitting, but more how "right".
I'm trying to continue to do things more slowly so that I can focus on what's "right".

I'm working on doing the same stuff in sword. Its a challenging transition.

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:12 AM   #5
phitruong
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.
Jeremy
Jeremy,

If you have not already, you might want to waltz over to Ledyard sensei's dojo and bring a yellow page phone book with you. on second thought, if you weighted less than 200 lbs, you might want to bring two phone books. when Ledyard sensei see you with the phone books, then he knows your question. Try not to eat anything before, because it is a bad form to make the local dojo cleaning up the mess.

I got my phone book experience at the seminar with Ledyard sensei last weekend. and no, I did not make a mess.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:57 AM   #6
Jeremy Hulley
Dojo: Seattle School of Aikido Shinto Ryu/Seattle Icho Ryu
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:32 AM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.
Incidentally, I have to be in Seattle for a few days at the end of July (to accompany my wife while she goes to a meeting). If the times work out I'll be happy to meet for a bit with a few people to shoot the breeze and see what they're doing. P.m. me if anyone is interested.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:52 AM   #8
phitruong
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best
Don't know if you have heard of this phrase: It has to be felt. my suggestion was so that you can feel what it's like of the effects. I guaranteed you that it feels completely different between the normal kind of hitting/punching versus the one that you are asking. one kind penetrates the phone books, the other kind, does not. My suggestion was genuine. Ledyard is a great guy, and I doubt that he would withheld the information from you.
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:10 PM   #9
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

I'm really trying to keep from getting off topic but...

I've been to George's dojo. We have trained together. We are friendly. I don't think that he is with holding information.

It has to be felt applies to lots of things.

Would you talk aobut how your experience with George has changed how you are hitting?

Thanks
Jeremy

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:46 PM   #10
phitruong
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post

Would you talk aobut how your experience with George has changed how you are hitting?

Jeremy
my experience with George only changed my hitting approach just a little bit. It's not really related to what you are asking. I telegraphed my intention too much and wasn't moving smoothly. sort of if you are going to punch, then punch and don't contemplating out it.

most of the things you described so far are what i have been doing as well. i also add a down-shifting of my center with my strikes. relax through the entire range of my strikes, i.e. not tensing at the point of impact. not cocking my arms or body parts for the strike, i.e. hitting from wherever my hands or body parts at the moment which required building up a good connected body and focus intention on the purest path between my power source through pass my target point(s). keep your mind calm and clear (very hard when the other blokes are also trying to pack you in). and some reverse breathing.

my experience with systema folks and Mike changed the way I strike, not George. sometimes you have to feel the effects of the strike to understand the nature of the strike and to produce it.

mind you, I started on this path only recently and don't have a clue where it will lead, but the journey is quite interesting so far.

*wonder if i gave away common secrets which folks might hunt me down*
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:13 PM   #11
Howard Popkin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

As long as you don't give away my tuna fishing secrets, you are safe
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:18 PM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
*wonder if i gave away common secrets which folks might hunt me down*
I wouldn't worry about it, Phi. Most people couldn't pour water out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. What I mean is that most of the word-descriptions won't tell anyone how to do anything. There's too much that simply has to be shown and explicitly detailed.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:33 PM   #13
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
As long as you don't give away my tuna fishing secrets, you are safe
Nice catch...
So Jealous

Jeremy Hulley
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:10 PM   #14
eyrie
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Man, that's a LOT of sashimi...

Ignatius
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:45 PM   #15
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Mike,
When are you going to be up here? I am afraid it might just be when I have to be in CO for Summer camp but I would hope not... Let me know the dates, I'd love to get together again.
- Geo

George S. Ledyard
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:06 PM   #16
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best
Hi Jeremy,
My own experience with Ark helped immensely with a number of mechanical issues that have considerably increased my power while requiring a lot less effort. I can't pursue many of his conditioning exercises as my knee is really shot for many of them but I am working around that as much as possible and finding things I can do.

I got quite a bit from Ushiro as well but more on how ones attention effects things.

Mike gave me a lot to work on during the brief time I saw him a couple years ago but I still try to do what I remember he told me. With no supervision its a bit hit or miss.

But my strikes have certainly changed so something is happening. I hit Phi (with two yellow pages on his chest) with the strongest boxing style hook to the midsection I could muster... lots of hip power and weight shift... while I don't think most folks would want to be hit with that (I am a super heavy weight after all) it wasn't anything that rocked his world with the phone books there. My attempt at duplicating something more along the lines of Mike's strike had far more effect with a fraction of the effort. It easily could have been a fight-ender without the phone books. But having actually felt what Mike can do, I'd say I am quite a ways off from that as yet.

Ark, Mike and Dan are helping folks a lot. The Systema folks as well, although there strikes are different. The dual emphasis on correct posture and proper structural conditioning can produce changes very quickly, especially when you first start the program. Like anything else, it takes a lot of work to take it out to the limits of what is possible. I encounter a number of people who have been training with these teachers in my Aikido. I can pretty much tell immediately when I touch them that they've been doing something different from the rest of their Aikido peers.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:15 PM   #17
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy,
In addition to the same things you have been working on, like Ark's instruction particularly, I've been playing with some other things. The wave that the Daito Ryu folks generate with their body for throwing, which you've experienced with Popkin Sensei is something I've been working into my striking and it is changing things dramatically. I actually started with static contact a la Systema, then created the wave but very slowly and deep,simply moving the partner's body while staying completely relaxed, then moved to running the same wave in an actual strike. I couldn't say without some feedback whether this is on the same track as what these other teachers are doing or is different but I am happy with the results so far.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:30 PM   #18
William Kaminsky
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Please pardon me if the following question is ignorant, but what role---if any--does tameshiwari play in these internal-oriented approaches to striking? I'm not so much thinking of tameshiwari of the usual brute-force type (i.e., "What's the maximum number of boards or bricks can I break when they're nicely arranged on firm supports?"). Rather, I'm thinking those types of tameshiwari which---at least in several schools of karate---are considered very stringent tests of proper focus (e.g., breaking a free-falling board with a descending knife-hand strike).
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:13 AM   #19
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Thanks George. Good stuff..

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:02 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Mike,
When are you going to be up here? I am afraid it might just be when I have to be in CO for Summer camp but I would hope not... Let me know the dates, I'd love to get together again.
- Geo
Hi George:

I'll be in Seattle from at least the 29Jul-01Aug. At the moment I'm trying to sort things out because my wife and I haven't decided whether to come in early for side-trips, etc. I'll p.m. you as things settle down.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:51 AM   #21
phitruong
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
William Kaminsky wrote: View Post
Please pardon me if the following question is ignorant, but what role---if any--does tameshiwari play in these internal-oriented approaches to striking? I'm not so much thinking of tameshiwari of the usual brute-force type (i.e., "What's the maximum number of boards or bricks can I break when they're nicely arranged on firm supports?"). Rather, I'm thinking those types of tameshiwari which---at least in several schools of karate---are considered very stringent tests of proper focus (e.g., breaking a free-falling board with a descending knife-hand strike).
Don't think in term of what the maximum number of boards/bricks to break or the speed test (a la breaking free-falling board). Think in term of which brick/board in the middle of the stack that i can break (Jean-Claude VanDam movie). Don't know if you noticed when i mentioned the strike where Ledyard sensei's power went through the book and attempted to go through my body. had i not used the breathing technique that i picked up from Mike, it would have gone through my body and i would have lost my breakfast and lunch on the spot. and i hate losing my foods just as i hate the smirk look on Howie face standing there by the big fish. it just make you want to grab a sharp knife, green mustard, pickled ginger and go sashimi. although, grilling on hot coals with light lime juice and garlic and a side of mango salsa would work too.

*i hate you Howie! you just know how to hurt a guy from a distance. now i have to go to the fish market. *
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:22 AM   #22
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it just make you want to grab a sharp knife, green mustard, pickled ginger and go sashimi. although, grilling on hot coals with light lime juice and garlic and a side of mango salsa would work too.
Damn, "Foo" I had no idea you might go postal... I'd have done it with someone safer... I was inches from death and didn't even know it.
- Georege

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Aikido Eastside
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:40 PM   #23
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Quote:
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Damn, "Foo" I had no idea you might go postal... I'd have done it with someone safer... I was inches from death and didn't even know it.
- Georege
Just be glad he didn't go egg "foo" yung on you!
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:12 PM   #24
Howard Popkin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Oh Phi,

Hate is such a strong word. Well, next time I'm in NC - we go to the coast catch a Giant Bluefin and some really big amberjack and have ourselves a sushi fest.

Looking forward to it, and some training too

Howard
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:44 PM   #25
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: How are you hitting/punching?

Phi,
I have plenty of phone books.....perhaps you and Patrick can stop by for some testing. If all else fails we can tape 2 phone books to your back and I'll punch you to see if I can make the books scream.

Mark J.

PS. I made slight adjustment to my striking recently it is more consistent and much deeper than the last time we met.
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