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Old 01-31-2009, 09:01 PM   #26
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Isn't it funny how the names we give techniques change or mean different physical movements depending on the dojo/organization/region we are in. Keeps us on our toes, or our bottoms depending on the technique.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:39 AM   #27
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Isn't it funny how the names we give techniques change or mean different physical movements depending on the dojo/organization/region we are in. Keeps us on our toes, or our bottoms depending on the technique.
Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do.

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc.

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache.
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical.
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed."

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:00 PM   #28
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do.

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc.

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache.
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical.
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed."
Guess you'll have problems with "returning the tree leaf", "hand mirror throw", "heaven and earth throw", "aiki drop", "boulder drop", "eighth light grip" and others...
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:24 PM   #29
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do.

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc.

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache.
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical.
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed."
Actually, on this point the Japanese names serve a purpose -- in non-Japanese tongues they are names, not descriptives -- and names are most often descriptives that have lost that function and gained a new one -- unless "Johnson" really means one is the "son of John" and Dalen means one is or relates to the "great tide."

Names are place holders for fundamentally irreducible things like a person or a principle. In Aikido outside of Japan, the techniques themselves stand as narrow exemplars of broader, deeper principles -- the fact that we wrestle with the essence of the thing named, rather than simply assuming the validity of a bare nominal description, is actually pretty helpful. We do not allow the naked descriptive boundary to interfere with grasping the commonality of principles across those boundaries, so that we can concentrate on other indigenous interferences and impediments. How those names function in Japan is another subject.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:16 AM   #30
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
unless "Johnson" really means one is the "son of John" and Dalen means one is or relates to the "great tide."
Your close to it...
My great-grandfather who immigrated from Norway was John.

(As far as Norwegian naming conventions back then, he was a farmer, so probably picked the name up from the farm he worked on. I dont know as I cant find that much info out.)

Dalen, on the other hand, (a name passed down from his son to mine), has the meaning "dum spiro spero", while I have breathe I have have hope.

But your point is taken about the changing meaning of names.

My little chat was really much lighter, wasnt trying to convince anyone of anything...
For some, like myself, who is learning in a language not there own - (Hungarian) having to add in there more terminology is just another hassle...in my eyes...

Truth be told, mirror hand wrist turn, etc., says more than enough.
Migi (right), Hidri, (left), just basic things.

Again, its not an argument over if Im right...what I feel for me is right - and for you, what you feel is. We all function differently.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-02-2009, 01:54 AM   #31
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Well, back to Yokomenuchi Tenchinage,

I had my exam yesterday...(many hours of daily practice went into preparing for this - along with silly questions here...so thanks.)

Interestingly enough, I was matched with an uke not from my dojo.
(All my test have been that way, ironically enough.)

This uke did Yokomenuchi Tenchinage like how has been discussed here and shown on links...well sort of. It was more like a fast 'clothesline' wrestling move.

He was about a head taller and had a lot more weight to his advantage - and quite honestly it hurt when he delivered the technique.
(The disadvantage of testing with people you have never trained with, that also are are disproportionally larger than you are - while both being still at a lower lvl with techniques needing to be honed.)

Anyway, that wasnt the point...
The point is that the other technique, the spin & turn then toss would not have worked with this dude at all. He would not have known what I was doing and would havent taken ukemi...

...which brings up the point of the necessity to figure out the best techniques in the best situations - as its nice to flow and have a good uke, but if a technique doesnt really work in a given situation - you must know this and adapt.

Anyway, the story of Tenchinage Yokomenuchi is put to a rest.
At least as far as the original question. My goal now is to become better at it so that I do not 'clothesline' someone.

Sometimes its easier to forget your strength when your larger than someone...your moderate pace and push, might be to much for another.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-02-2009 at 01:57 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:21 AM   #32
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Congratulations on your test, since I assume you passed!!
Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
The point is that the other technique, the spin & turn then toss would not have worked with this dude at all. He would not have known what I was doing and would havent taken ukemi...
Well... if it had not worked... then the execution is not that right. It's not the technique, but how well can you perform it. If you mean tenchinage ura then, man it works very good with big ukes indeed!

Again, congrats, and keep working .
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:10 AM   #33
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Congratulations on your test, since I assume you passed!!

Well... if it had not worked... then the execution is not that right. It's not the technique, but how well can you perform it. If you mean tenchinage ura then, man it works very good with big ukes indeed!

Again, congrats, and keep working .
Yes, I did pass - thanks for the congrats.

My head is still spinning from all of this:
(I went into intense training mode at home the past couple of weeks to prep for the test.)

I've said it before, and I suppose Ill say it again - but every time I think I have the basics of one technique 'mastered', I realize there is still a whole new dynamic of it to be learned in order for it to be effective in various situations.

Suppose nothing brings this out clearer than training/testing with a new 'uke', like at seminar when you can really see what is working - when is it working - and why does it work in the situations it does.

Got some good insight from other Aikidoka in the training before the test.

Well - time to prep for the next test.
(A little less 'cramming' this time...)

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-02-2009 at 04:13 AM.

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Old 02-03-2009, 05:49 AM   #34
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Hi,

Quote:
Likewise, a crosshand grab can be turned into a tenchi nage outside the arm if he grabs or blocks nage's atemi to the face,
Hm, I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a tenchi nage by beeing held in kosa dori and delivering atemi with my free hand. If uke blocks/grabs this atemi with his free hand while holding on my other hand, how will this become tenchi nage?
But: I never tried this.
And: Anyway I am in front of uke.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Iriminage works perfectly well inside of the arm, ... you ARE outside the arm, and the tenchinage proceeds.
Sure it works. Don't focus on the arm alone:

For tenchi nage you stay in front of uke, for iriminage you enter behind him.

The throwing movement and the throwing direction in irimi nage or tenchi nage are the same to my understanding.
But can you do irimi nage without enterin in ukes blind spot behind him? Or can you do tenchi nage from there?

Quote:
What is happening to uke's structure is the distinction.
I think the three ways you describe the dinstinction between kokyu nage, irimi nage and tenchi nage can all be applied in each technique, in tenchi nage aswell as in irimi nage:

Quote:
you gather him up and then collapse him
We have versions of tenchi nage and irimi nage which do that. But in our irimi nage this is more basic.

Quote:
you cut him open and walk through him
This are nearly exactly the words in which our basic tenchi nage is described.
But you can do it in iriminage aswell.

Quote:
you splay him and he splats.
This can be used agaiin in both: irimi and tenchi nage. But for both of them we don't use this structure.

@ dalen:
Congratulations!

And you are wright: The learning never ends.

Carsten
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:58 AM   #35
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
The throwing movement and the throwing direction in irimi nage or tenchi nage are the same to my understanding.
But can you do irimi nage without enterin in ukes blind spot behind him? Or can you do tenchi nage from there?
Sure .
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:02 AM   #36
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Sure .
Ok then.
The distinction proposed by Ercik (by ukes structure) doesn't work either because you (or we) can work the same technique in very different ways.

So there's no distinction between both of them?

Interesting!

Carsten
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:10 AM   #37
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Ok then.
The distinction proposed by Ercik (by ukes structure) doesn't work either because you (or we) can work the same technique in very different ways.

So there's no distinction between both of them?

Interesting!
Uhh! I think I missquoted. Yes, the distinction Erick did does make a lot of sense. Collapsing uke is not the same as entering though him, even when it can look similar to the lego.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:41 AM   #38
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Uhh! I think I missquoted. Yes, the distinction Erick did does make a lot of sense. Collapsing uke is not the same as entering though him, even when it can look similar to the lego.
You are right: It is not the same and normaly doesn't look the same.
But can't we do tenchi nage in very different ways?
Can't we do irimi nage in different ways?

(In brackets our use of the possibillities)

You can throw uke by just delivering atemi straight to the face. (used in ten chi and irimi nage, but not as basic form nowadays. When I began this was basic.)

You can throw uke by "lifting" him up, directing his ki to the sky until he comes down by himself. (more often used in irimi nage, but also possible in tenchi nage)

You can throw uke, by opening him with kuzushi and then going right through him. (more often used in tenchi nage than in irimi nage)

You can throw uke by directing him using his neck and the side of the head. (used in tenchi nage and in irimi nage)

You can throw uke by "blocking / stopping" his head/chest and accelerate (?) his hips (so he "runs" through under your arm and comes down on his back.)
(possible in tenchi nage but in fact only used in irimi nage)

These are different ways to apply the same technique(s). The structure of uke is very different in each way, but it's the same technique.

Maybe I totally misunderstand you and Erick?

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 02-03-2009 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:35 AM   #39
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hm, I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a tenchi nage by beeing held in kosa dori and delivering atemi with my free hand. If uke blocks/grabs this atemi with his free hand while holding on my other hand, how will this become tenchi nage?
But: I never tried this.
And: Anyway I am in front of uke.
I'll diagram it for you.

Uke grabs kosa to the right hand.

Nage advances slightly on the right foot and pviots the left foot to uke's right side maintaining neutral connection on the right hand now facing about 90 deg to uke's front. (IOW -- not a full sokumen step, ans the right foot stays for the moment)

The left hand rises up toward uke's face as the step is performed,

Uke blocks or grabs the striking arm with the left hand.

This is natural because nage's pivoting step entry with the hand neutral induces uke into kuzushi forward with slight turn to the right, and he very often is in the process of striking with the left hand already as he is trying to step around to regain his balance. If this does not occur the entyr is wrong -- kuzushi must be had at the first movement of contact -- the eventual tenchi simply reverses the kuzushi taking advantage of his attempted recovery.

So at his point nage is connected to both sides of uke's body and is off to his right side, feet at shoulder width or so (Hachiji-dachi) with uke's balance slightly broken slightly forward and now turning right. Nage's left hand is in uke's face slightly above shoulder level -- the right hand is at about waist level.

Drop the hara, as the lower and upper hands extend into tenchi (pay attention to the spiral of the arms -- it has very powerful effect from this position) Then you may throw by stepping out slightly to his front (omote) or rear (ura) and then simply pivoting on that leg.

If he turns away from you instead of toward you to strike this dictates a step to his front and pivot for the throw and vice versa if he turns further toward to pursue his strike you step to his rear and pivot on that leg -- and if he stalls in the tenchi kuzushi you can go either way.

Of course, if he is more on the ball and aggressive in his follow on strike from the initial entry nage simply goes with and slips the punch using his own striking arm to carry uke's striking arm through and around, and bringing up uke's grabbing arm into the juji-garame.

If you step through him more directly in the throw, you can drop him over your hip in more of an aiki-otoshi or koshinage (depending on whether you press the front or back hip into connection in the movement -- which is also what you could do if you are not able to get your striking hand over his grabbing arm into the shomen ate - or men-tsuki (as you prefer) in the first place.

Hope it helps.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:22 PM   #40
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
You are right: It is not the same and normaly doesn't look the same.
But can't we do tenchi nage in very different ways?
Can't we do irimi nage in different ways?

(In brackets our use of the possibillities)
...
You can throw uke by "blocking / stopping" his head/chest and accelerate (?) his hips (so he "runs" through under your arm and comes down on his back.)
(possible in tenchi nage but in fact only used in irimi nage)

These are different ways to apply the same technique(s). The structure of uke is very different in each way, but it's the same technique.

Maybe I totally misunderstand you and Erick?

Carsten
Nope. I think we grok. Been there, done that. [Non-English-speaking Geek Alert: "Grok." like "splinch" is a literary invention, in this case of Robert Heinlein, from the Martian, meaning "... to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed". End Geek Alert ]

The last example you gave requires very strong kokyu ho if you start from a static position. Beginners have a very hard time using kokyu to snatch uke off his base without so much movement on their part -- but it is spectacular when they do it and the dawn of comprehension breaks through the clouds of frustration.

Tenchi is the principle of dividing left and right into up and down such that no matter which of those he tries to resist or flee from he creates potential rotation. Splinched. Another kokyu ho arranges support for one side and not the other, such that when uke moves off of or is lifted off his support he swings into an unavoidable rotation, which is joined with and added to. Another kokyu ho displaces him in torque left to right and right to left, leaving neither side adequately supported, forcing a fall or a choice of support, which then creates an inevitable torquing rotation -- again joined with and added to. Another draws all of uke lofting into a single point of support, unloading him, buckling him off that support in tension (aiki-age) snapping him out like a cut tension wire -- another drives uke into a single point of support and loading him up -- buckling him off that support in compression (aiki sage) popping him out like a sprung pole.

One uses those kokyu manipulations to eliminate structural stability directly (Ki of Earth, using chi no kokyu where breath drives action) -- or exploits the reflexive compensations after inducing the structural changes to do so indirectly (Ki of Heaven, using ten no kokyu where action drives breath). This is one way to more concretely understand those sometimes abstract terms (there are others).

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:30 PM   #41
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post

@ dalen:
Congratulations!

And you are wright: The learning never ends.

Carsten
Thanks...

- dalen

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