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Old 01-27-2009, 03:53 PM   #1
dalen7
 
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Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

I already have a thread here at aikiweb about Tenchinage...was about to put this in there, but seeing my issue is that this technique doesnt feel remotely similar to Tenchnage, I thought I would start a new thread.

1) Uke strikes using Yokomenuchi
2) Nage, for all intents an purposes, slides directly in front of uke and strikes attacking arm down.
(Doesnt feel like enough 'space' this way...suppose its just down to needing to practice it more.)
3) Then, the non attacking/blocking hand of Nage goes to the waist of Uke and you do kind of an ushiro Tenkan move...like your are turning around and tossing him. (Whats up with the toss...this is where I get stuck, and feels unrealistic...even with someone smaller.)

The move feels like a messed up iriminage.
No doubt my instructor knows how to do it - but Im not catching on to it...partly this is due to how I know Tenchinage is done with all the other moves. (as well as that toss...just wont work unless Uke falls on purpose.)

Below is how I see it would work...

1) It would seem that you would slide in and put your free arm up to ukes neck, as your defending arm strikes down ukes attacking arm.

2) Then you would step in behind uke and 'knock' them down.

Even that is not the typical position to do Tenchinage, though it did work when I tried it on uke - vs. the other one, if uke doesnt fall, it looks like two clowns who doesnt know what they are doing.

Anyway, this move is a bit frustrating, seeing I havent been able to find any other references on this, and I haven't been able to get any more insight, at the dojo, into how to truly get this technique to be executed.
(Right now it feels like a kokyu-nage, a move that uke just needs to go with, or there is no point in doing it...which I know there is more to it.)

Your take on Yokomenuchi Tenchinage?
Anyone have videos to point to - my Aikido 3D didnt have this technique either, unfortunately. (Time is ticking down as my test is coming up. Unfortunately we dont really practice Yokomenuchi much...go figure.)

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 01-27-2009 at 04:03 PM.

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Old 01-28-2009, 07:55 AM   #2
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Your take on Yokomenuchi Tenchinage?
Anyone have videos to point to
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13.

Carsten
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:38 AM   #3
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13.
Doesn't entering like this exposes the nage to uke's tsuki with the other (left) hand?

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:01 AM   #4
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

No, it works fine!

I can't describe it in english very well, but you control uke at his yokomen arm (there is a little kuzushi) and you yourself immediately fill the space between tori and uke with your second arm going directly in the direction of the chin of uke.
It really works.

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:09 AM   #5
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
... this technique doesnt feel remotely similar to Tenchnage, I thought I would start a new thread.

1) Uke strikes using Yokomenuchi
2) Nage, for all intents an purposes, slides directly in front of uke and strikes attacking arm down.
(Doesnt feel like enough 'space' this way...suppose its just down to needing to practice it more.)
3) Then, the non attacking/blocking hand of Nage goes to the waist of Uke and you do kind of an ushiro Tenkan move...like your are turning around and tossing him. (Whats up with the toss...this is where I get stuck, and feels unrealistic...even with someone smaller.)

The move feels like a messed up iriminage.
No doubt my instructor knows how to do it - but Im not catching on to it...partly this is due to how I know Tenchinage is done with all the other moves. (as well as that toss...just wont work unless Uke falls on purpose.)

Below is how I see it would work...

1) It would seem that you would slide in and put your free arm up to ukes neck, as your defending arm strikes down ukes attacking arm.

2) Then you would step in behind uke and 'knock' them down.

... Unfortunately we dont really practice Yokomenuchi much...go figure.)
Let me address what is occurring in tenchi nage and maybe it will help with this -- which is harder to see because it does SEEM to take place in two parts. Actually, it is only one part, like a single wave but with a double peak. If you treat it like two whole pulses it will not work, and that is what I see in your problem.

Tenchi nage works by exploiting a whole body torquing shear -- which is vastly different from leverage or "cranking" a limb.

If I take ryotedori tenchnage on the left side and take it up at 45deg. and the right side and take it down 45 deg. that sets up a diagonal tension across uke's upper torso girdle. This does two things -- it creates a compensating compression in the opposed 45 degree diagonal, pinning weight on the low side leg, with a torsional shear.
That structural shear spirals around the whole body and effectively lifts weight off the leg on the tension spiral, and drops weight on the leg on the compression spiral. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239

In yokomenuchi iriminage the emphasis on the attacking hand is not to strike it down, but to carry it up and then let it fall past while entering through it. It is a suriage -- in other words -- not a kiriotoshi, in sword terms. In this mode it creates the aikiage I described above, through the tension channel, and then the move connecting with the opposite hip (or with torso with an atemi, which is a permissible alternate), and cutting down the torso, or down onto the hip girdle or even a groin strike or extension past the inside of the opposing thigh -- further drives the tension channel axis into the throwing torque shear. The point is to effect that stretching or striking tension down and out along the same axis as the suriage going up and out. The throw just happens as you step through.

It is hard for uke to place the source of this structurally because he is being stretched and compressed in two different axes in one movement. Statically, any movement by nage is pivoting uke like a refrigerator poised on one corner. But dynamically, uke typically has begun by weighting the back foot to drive the attack, so lifting weight off it by shear in this way causes that weight-bearing extension of the leg to overactuate, driving uke off his own base. The throw is essentially trivial at that point.

There are nifty some reflex arcs that come into play to bypass uke's conscious control over what is happening if it is done in the correct rhythm (Google "Jendrassik maneuver trigger stepping" and see what you find. There much of interest on these points.)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:41 AM   #6
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Let me address what is occurring in tenchi nage and maybe it will help with this -- which is harder to see because it does SEEM to take place in two parts. Actually, it is only one part, like a single wave but with a double peak. If you treat it like two whole pulses it will not work, and that is what I see in your problem.
Let me just say, in response to all that you have written, that this is the type of knowledge/understanding I would like to have with Aikido.

You show a pretty grounded knowledge of what works and why with your Aikido...Im still waiting for it to click - though it is coming together piece by piece.

Thanks for the post.

dAlen

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Whoa...that is exactly what I tried to describe in my second description - of how I got it to work with my uke.

But...it is not, unfortunately the method I was shown, which is what I cant get to work.

hmmm...well, I will work with what I can get to work - and try to figure out the other method in the meantime.

Thanks for the link...

Peace

dAlen

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Old 01-28-2009, 09:51 AM   #8
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Isn't that Irimi Nage??
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:14 AM   #9
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Isn't that Irimi Nage??
Funny you say that...one guy said that was iriminage when I did it.
(Though the instructor showed something else for iriminage.)

But the way my instructor is showing me tenchinage, is more like an iriminage - at least to me, as there is definitely a turn in direction and hip shift.

Anyway, to be quite honest with you at this point in time - Im happy to find the aspects that work with me...and really not too concerned about the names. (Though some clarity would be nice, I realize there are many forms to some of the techniques.)

Peace

dAlen

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Old 01-28-2009, 10:14 AM   #10
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Is it possible that you are confusing this technique with kata garuma?
To me, the one shown on the video does look more like irimi nage.

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Old 01-28-2009, 10:30 AM   #11
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Doesn't look tenchi to me (lacks heaven, imho), but if Tissier S. Says it is, then for your purposes it is.
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #12
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Is it possible that you are confusing this technique with kata garuma?
To me, the one shown on the video does look more like irimi nage.
You know - it could be.
Im starting to think that certain techniques hold different names across dojos...and even ironically can get intermingled in the dojo itself.

Suppose I was always aware of the various naming differences - but never popped up like this before.

Oh well, I figure all is good...at least the one method does work, regardless the name. (Now for that awkward ushiro twist and toss version... lol )

Peace

dAlen

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Old 01-28-2009, 12:05 PM   #13
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

I think I know which tenchinage you're describing, Dalen7 - does this sound like it?:

Uke attacks yokomen with his right hand. I enter with my right foot and engage uke's attacking arm with my left hand while my right gives an atemi to uke's face, drawing his left, usually, in defence (the standard 5th kyu yokomenuchi engagement). My left hand comes to my waist as I tenkan around beside uke on my left foot. My left "earth" hand sweeps downbehind uke's right leg as I step forward with my right leg, switch my hips, and throw uke. Uke's trailing hand may or may not keep kokyu, but the feeling of "heaven" is still there.

If this is the one you're having trouble with, I think the key points are:
a) the initial irimi and atemi to take uke's balance. The irimi is necessary to invade uke's sphere and the atemi is necessary to break their posture. Once you get really comfortable, the irimi itself can be almost an atemi, but it's always best to learn techniques using broad atemi as training wheels (because they're still there even when you don't see them!)
b) keeping a strong magnetic-feeling kokyu with your drawing "earth" hand - I think of it like leading a partner when you're waltzing
c) the "earth" hand should never come up. You are turning the initial yokomenuchi into the top of a lazy "S". The weight of the "earth" hand and their attention to the "heaven" hand keep uke unbalanced through the whole technique.

The throw itself is a lot like iriminage, in that one hand goes up while one goes down, there is some centripetal aspect to the throwing force, and uke falls the same way. Indeed, like in iriminage, your "heaven" arm should not clothesline uke, nor are you stepping all the way through to trip uke.

I hope this helps at all,
voitokas

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Old 01-28-2009, 12:53 PM   #14
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
I think I know which tenchinage you're describing, Dalen7 - does this sound like it?:

Uke attacks yokomen with his right hand. I enter with my right foot and engage uke's attacking arm with my left hand while my right gives an atemi to uke's face, drawing his left, usually, in defence (the standard 5th kyu yokomenuchi engagement). My left hand comes to my waist as I tenkan around beside uke on my left foot. My left "earth" hand sweeps downbehind uke's right leg as I step forward with my right leg, switch my hips, and throw uke. Uke's trailing hand may or may not keep kokyu, but the feeling of "heaven" is still there.

If this is the one you're having trouble with, I think the key points are:
a) the initial irimi and atemi to take uke's balance. The irimi is necessary to invade uke's sphere and the atemi is necessary to break their posture. Once you get really comfortable, the irimi itself can be almost an atemi, but it's always best to learn techniques using broad atemi as training wheels (because they're still there even when you don't see them!)
b) keeping a strong magnetic-feeling kokyu with your drawing "earth" hand - I think of it like leading a partner when you're waltzing
c) the "earth" hand should never come up. You are turning the initial yokomenuchi into the top of a lazy "S". The weight of the "earth" hand and their attention to the "heaven" hand keep uke unbalanced through the whole technique.

The throw itself is a lot like iriminage, in that one hand goes up while one goes down, there is some centripetal aspect to the throwing force, and uke falls the same way. Indeed, like in iriminage, your "heaven" arm should not clothesline uke, nor are you stepping all the way through to trip uke.

I hope this helps at all,
voitokas
Thanks for your time and reply.
For the most part it does sound very similar - and the part about not stepping all the way through to trip uke holds here, which is kind of the part that threw me at first.

Just got finished practicing the version in the video linked toward the beginning of this thread...but definitely want to get a better flow with the other one.

In a way, the hard part simply is this:
After the atemi, and as your turning to switch directions, the hand is actually on the Ukes waist and 'pushing' to toss/throw - vs. being in heaven position. (This is what confused me, as any resemblance to heaven and earth was kind of gone...no stepping behind uke with earth hand, and no hand up by the neck...instead by the waist and pushing as you turn to the opposite direction.)

An interesting note to add:
I just went back through my training video I made with my instructor a couple weeks ago. We did not have the time to go into detail through all the techniques for my kyu levels as I would have liked, and toward the end some were rushed.

I bring that up because Yokomenuchi was one of the techniques in the rush pile. We didnt go through the full technique.
Instead he showed that the entering was the same for all of them.
(A direct entry) and from there you executed the techniques as you would in any other position.

And in that, the direction for Tenchinage was the same as listed here by other members, and what you would expect.

However, in our last training class, when trying to prep for our test, he showed this other way to me and my uke - and that is where the confusion came in... (seeing I dont speak Hungarian, it was hard for me to clarify what was going on - and it confused my uke as he cant pull the technique off that way either.)

Anyway - I chalk it up to just one of those things.
Funky things happen when your not able to clearly communicate because of language.

Suppose a lot of this could have been averted, if we had practiced more of the requirements the past months. There are some techniques in our test that were barely touched upon at all. (Have to admit, I have been quite disappointed with this.)
It could be because at a certain lvl you can easily apply the base knowledge between techniques and forget its not quite the same way in the beginning stages.

Either way, I have enjoyed and appreciated the responses, and learned from them.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 01-28-2009 at 01:07 PM.

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Old 01-29-2009, 05:51 AM   #15
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13.
Doesn't look tenchi to me (lacks heaven, imho), but if Tissier S. Says it is, then for your purposes it is.
In our nomenclature for irimi nage you have to step into the blind angle or blind spot of uke (shikaku 死角 ).
That means you place yourself behind uke. And on the outside of ukes arm.

(Some people say that would be an entry or a position which was originally invented by O Sensei. I don't know wether that's true.)

From that point you can throw directly (omote) or you can cut down uke and throw him when he comes up again (ura).

Compare this video of irimi nage.

To do tenchi nage you have to place yourself in front of uke and on the inside of ukes arm.
You can see the different position very clearly here.

Now let uke raise his earth-hand (yokomen) and move nages contact from the wrist to the inner side of the elbow. et voilà: You've got the form of tenchi nage shown in the above video.

That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke.

Carsten
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:18 AM   #16
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Compare this video of irimi nage.

That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke.

Carsten
I agree with the above as far as making a distinction between the two. Only if there were more of a consistency in the usage of terminology, not only between dojos...but within the dojo itself between students - at least the higher ranks.

As far as irminage - check out this piece of Steven Seagal - looks more like some wrestling move...no blending at all, just pure force forward and down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJm8y...eature=related

Peace

dAlen

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Old 01-29-2009, 09:04 AM   #17
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
In our nomenclature for irimi nage you have to step into the blind angle or blind spot of uke (shikaku 死角 ).
That means you place yourself behind uke. And on the outside of ukes arm. ... That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke.
I dunno about that as the distinction, exactly. Iriminage works perfectly well inside of the arm, the entry just has to be keenly aware of attaining immediate kuzushi because the opposing arm and leg are able to initiate a second attack, if not.

Likewise, a crosshand grab can be turned into a tenchi nage outside the arm if he grabs or blocks nage's atemi to the face, and then you ARE outside the arm, and the tenchinage proceeds. Some might call this a kokyu nage, but there is a distinction my book, even though the position is the same. Kokyu nage raises the whole structure inhaling and drops through him with whole structure the cycle of breath exhaling in a full circular spiral. Tenchinage is splinching him (for the Harry Potter fans)

To put it in more colorful terms -- in kokyunage you gather him up and then collapse him -- in irminage you cut him open and walk through him -- and in tenchi nage you splay him and he splats. What is happening to uke's structure is the distinction.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:33 AM   #18
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

I'm very sorry but I only get the half of your statement. (If it is a half at all ...)

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
a crosshand grab
Do you refer to ai hanmi or kosa dori?

Quote:
there is a distinction my book
To which book do you refer?

Quote:
Tenchinage is splinching him (for the Harry Potter fans)
My dicitionaries don't know "to splinch".

Quote:
in tenchi nage you splay him and he splats.
What my dictionaries give me for "splay" and "splat" doesn't make sense here in my opinion.

Can you help me?

The way you describe irimi nage - to open and walk through - is our description of doing tenchi nage.

Carsten
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:09 PM   #19
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I'm very sorry but I only get the half of your statement. (If it is a half at all ...)

Do you refer to ai hanmi or kosa dori?
Kosa dori. the step is to the outside of the grabbing hand and the atemi is to the face with the free hand -- if he fails to lock or grab it, the atemi progrewsses through a sokumen iriminage, -- if he does grab it or block it, it can be either kokyunage or tenchinage, depending on whether you "splinch" (see below) him in place (tenchi nage) -- or roll him over himself (kokyunage)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
To which book do you refer?
The metaphorical one existing only in my addled brain... apologies -- English is not as concrete in its references as German -- or so I'm told by my cousin who is living there. My favorite definition of English is: "Bad German, spoken by Welshmen, with a Latin inferiority complex."

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
My dicitionaries don't know "to splinch".
I know, neither do mine, and they are in English, but it is a wonderful word invented by Ms. Rowling.
Quote:
Splinching, or the separation of random body parts, occurs when the mind is insufficiently determined. You must concentrate continually upon your destination, and move, without haste, but with deliberation…
Basically that captures the image of tenchinage for me -- the body suddenly disarticulates into loose parts -- structurally speaking, of course. [For our German friends -- swords are, of course, necessary for the more concrete forms of bodily separation ... ]

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
What my dictionaries give me for "splay" and "splat" doesn't make sense here in my opinion.
As I said they were "colorful" and "color" is notoriously hard to translate -- and I couldn't do German if my life depended in it.

My dictionary refers to "splay as "To spread (the limbs, for example) out or apart, especially clumsily." "Splay" in this context means to widely spread the structural elements of support, creating an open hinge so that it buckles and collapses -- "splat." When I do tenchinage properly, my uke typically feels this "hole" open up under and in front of them (or in the kosa variant above, under and behind) -- they teeter on the brink of it, and I simply lead them over and into it.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Can you help me?
That remains to be seen. Let me know if it does.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-29-2009 at 12:16 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:59 PM   #20
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Well, it does very well.

Carsten
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:56 AM   #21
Flintstone
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Thank you Erik. Pretty solid argument.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:47 PM   #22
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Got a bit of clarification today...it appears that the pivot and toss version is for when you enter late.

Either way, both versions seem to be acceptable for Tenchinage as far as our test is concerned.

I got a better feel for the toss version, properly executing it seems a bit hard - but it makes for a nice quick get away to recoup or get out of there.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
I will add, the terminology is still a bit tricky.
It appears if you enter and push the head back this is iriminage vs. entering and throwing your arm up in heaven position, which is Tenchinage.

For all intents and purposes, the only difference is you lower your hand to push the face, vs. having it outstretched. I would have thought this would just be a play off of Tenchinage, but then again, its easy to get lost in words...the point is - does it work? If so, the terminology is secondary...at most.

Last edited by dalen7 : 01-30-2009 at 01:53 PM.

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Old 01-30-2009, 03:49 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face!

B,
R

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Old 01-30-2009, 04:10 PM   #24
Flintstone
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face!

B,
R
See? I would call that shomen ate
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:48 AM   #25
dalen7
 
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Re: Yokomenuchi Tenchinage

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face!

B,
R
Yes, actually quite effective and easier to pull off.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
...I would call that shomen ate
I like that one.

Peace

dAlen

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