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Old 01-15-2009, 06:45 PM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Richard Haight wrote: View Post
I do not, however, think that Daito-ryu in principle is the same as what Kuroda does (although there is overlap).
Well, fair enough. However, I think the principles are the same. For instance when you see Ueshiba bounce someone off of his chest or thigh, when you see Ueshiba do a good "aiki" technique, or when you see Ueshiba sit seiza and have an Uke push on his head... these are all the same principle. When Kuroda does his two tricks at the end of :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMS...ext=1&index=45

or you see Okamoto do his demonstrations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJm3Sn4K-I

These are all the same principles.

What I'm saying is that from my perspective it just seems a little short-sighted to take the position that the principles in some ryu-ha are so different that that ryu-ha is some preferable way to approach a Dao. The "cultivation of the body" that is called for in the major schools is all part of this same Dao. There are many Dao's but there is only one Dao. However, if your Dao means being part of a singular club/group/organization, that is up to you.
Quote:

If I could give any advise to any aiki practitioner that I think would be generally helpful yet not break my oath to my ryu-ha, it would be this: do whatever it takes to develop awareness of the body (yours and others - at distance and close up), the logical mind (yours and others - at a distance and close up), the emotional mind (""), the "reflex responses" of those three things as well as develop the ability to control things like heart-rate, bloodpressure, breath, thought, etc simply by slight intention. The goal being to be able to flow in all these areas without locking up or having negative reflexive responses.
Once I was invited to join a select and supposedly discerning group to study Taoism. My first thought was, "Do Taoists join groups?". Sometimes you have to choose.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-15-2009, 09:01 PM   #152
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Thanks for the response Mike.

I suppose I am heading in the following direction: if "I" go into these dojo's thinking they are all doing the same thing, then it becomes inherently more difficult for me to notice the actual differences. The end result is that I will not be learning the art that the teacher is teaching.

After much time with these teachers and much time to reflect later, I realize that there are distinctions that are important to the arts in terms of strategy, intention, form and finally principle. There is also overlap, which I state above.

These are Kobujutsu, so there is a lot more that goes along with them than just body skills. If I am not careful to see them separately while studying, I may well miss some important things. It would be better to get the Menkyo in them all and then reflect back on them to see if it was the same or not, in my opinion.

From your previous post, it seems that you and I have somewhat different goals in our training (but there is overlap - we both want to improve and have living, effective skills). I think it is the differences in our intentions that makes our perspectives necessarily different in regards to how we observe arts.

I can give you an example based on publicly accessible (non-secrets) of Yanagi-ryu (the little that I know of it). Yanagi-ryu tends (not always) to use a lot of linking to progressively lock the skeletal structure then use a sudden drop in body weight to finish the movement. This is not the case with many other aiki dojos and high level teachers. There are other ways used to break balance and other ways to finish the movement.

If I had freedom to speak more precisely, I could give a better example, but basically, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but in the end we are all skinning cats as it were.

Finally, I agree that it is a mistake to assume that the arts are totally different things. But going the other way, I also think it is a mistake to view them as being the same. The reasoning I am using here is that not every teacher explains where you are misunderstanding (althought some certainly do) and will expect you to learn through the awareness that comes with a clear and open mind. In fact, in Japan most do not explain much at all. As I don't want to miss anything, I just prefer to keep them separate in my mind until I am at the top of the mountain. I guess from a training perspective (in a formal dojo), I don't see the advantage of holding the view that it's all one thing - yet.

Last edited by R H : 01-15-2009 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:34 PM   #153
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Oh, Mike, sorry, I forgot to address the videos that you linked regarding the principles of Kuroda, Ueshiba and Okamoto. I have personally felt both Okamoto, Kuroda and some Shihan from Nishikido's dojo do the arm-wrestling thing. The one similarity is that in all three cases the movement is 'Silent' (ie it can't be felt by the other person), but the way that each of them does this arm-wrestling (and the principles that they apply to it) are quite different. They are not doing the same thing from a technical perspective. As far as an unknowing uke is concerned, they are exactly the same thing (because they are complete unable to feel anything and they are unable to pick out the details of the movement because it is so "ghostly" to use a word that has been popular here.

The reason they are using different principles is because the purpose of each art is different and so the context of training is different.

Take for example Oshiki-uchi of Daito-ryu, which is the training that comes through the Aiki No Jutsu. The purpose of this training (as I understand it) was to make body-guards who could most effectively protect a feudal lord, his advisors and family primarily inside a Japanese castle (Aizu specifically). If you've ever been inside a some of these Japanese castles, you will find that the hallways tend to be very narrow and the ceilings tend to be very low. They are designed this way to limit the possibility of weapons usage inside the castle. Swing your sword and it hits the ceiling or wall before it makes it to its intended target. This dictates that the movement of Daito-ryu aikijutsu incredibly small. Furthermore the art was designed (as I understand it) to neutralize multiple attackers on first contact (instantly) as it assumes that there would be multiple assassins. If the body-guard got stuck in a wrestle with one assassin, the other could just run by slay your King. If you try to substitute other arts into this same body-guard position, you might find a lot of things need to be changed in order for some of the other arts to fit that particular venue.

Regards,
Richard
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Old 01-16-2009, 07:21 AM   #154
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Richard Haight wrote: View Post
I have personally felt both Okamoto, Kuroda and some Shihan from Nishikido's dojo do the arm-wrestling thing. The one similarity is that in all three cases the movement is 'Silent' (ie it can't be felt by the other person), but the way that each of them does this arm-wrestling (and the principles that they apply to it) are quite different.
Forests and trees, Richard. In the two videos I posted, Kuroda's basic principles were the same basic principles that Okamoto used. They just look different. Sometimes they feel different, but that depends on the skill and approach of the exhibitor and doesn't mean that the core principles are different.

But anyway, nice to chat with you.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:53 AM   #155
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Interesting...Kuroda Sensei and Okamoto Sensei, who are friends, both seem to disagree with you, Mike. I believe this because they have both been asked (in my presence) whether they are doing essentially the same thing. Their answers were rather similar, "Because humans live under gravity and have a common body structure, mind, etc, there is a certain degree of principle overlap, but there is also a lot of difference." I suppose a good metaphor might be that they are two distinct colors in a rainbow. If you care to ask them directly, I am sure they would both be happy to discuss this with you if you visit them. Better do it soon though, as Okamoto Sensei is well into his 80's.

As I am no expert on their arts, it would seem improper for me to disagree with them both. For now, at least, I will just keep an open-mind as to what they are teaching and save a definite answer for a day when I am standing at the top of the mountain as a result of climbing it with my own two feet. Maybe you are already high enough to see clearly for yourself, but in the end, each of us has to make a personal decision about how we wish to approach our training. As I have come to Japan to train with an instructor in traditional training, I will submit myself to their system of training whole-heartedly.

I too am enjoying this chat quite a bit. But unfortunately, I am not one who has many answers. I have my opinions, of course, but I think those will change over time as they always have. Not all that much point in me engraving them in stone at this point.

I do greatly respect your point of view, Mike. Thank you for sharing it.
Regards,
Richard

P.S. on possible point of misunderstanding is how we are defining principles. If you care to clarify what you mean by it in regards to MA, that may be of help.

Last edited by R H : 01-16-2009 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Add an afterthought
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:12 AM   #156
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

What is it you mean when you say basic principles. As I have not taken part in these conversations I may well be lacking a certain vocabulary to understand what you are referring to. Seems to me, that a lot of this stuff is quite difficult to describe in words - no substitute for hands on - but maybe you have some effective way to communicate these things over the internet.
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:52 AM   #157
David Orange
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Richard Haight wrote: View Post
...I may well be lacking a certain vocabulary to understand what you are referring to. Seems to me, that a lot of this stuff is quite difficult to describe in words - no substitute for hands on - but maybe you have some effective way to communicate these things over the internet.
It's a problem many people have encountered in these discussions.

I found this site very helpful:

http://unleashingfong.com/martialmov...itle=Main_Page

It's Tim Fong's wiki on internal strength. It compiles a lot of information to help provide a common vocabulary.

In particular, you might want to read through Mike's articles on internal strength here:

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/peng-index.htm

If you try to link through the wiki, it doesn't work because the url is like this:

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/peng-index.htm:

If you remove the final colon, as I did above, you can see the articles.

Another good link is to an archive of the old neijia mailing list:

http://www.jangchoe.name/neijia/

It's mainly oriented to Chinese arts but it goes into a good bit of how-to detail on internal power.

Also, Mike hosts the qi/jin forum. It's private, so you'll need to get in through him.

Thanks for your interesting insights.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-16-2009, 10:43 AM   #158
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Richard Haight wrote: View Post
Interesting...Kuroda Sensei and Okamoto Sensei, who are friends, both seem to disagree with you, Mike. I believe this because they have both been asked (in my presence) whether they are doing essentially the same thing. Their answers were rather similar, "Because humans live under gravity and have a common body structure, mind, etc, there is a certain degree of principle overlap, but there is also a lot of difference."
I'm not sure how that's any different than what I said. Ask Kuroda what he means by "gravity" (or just look at the two ki demo's at the end of that video, because that's what he's talking about, then ask him if those demo's show "gravity") and you might understand what I mean by the core principles being the same. I mentioned that there were superficial differences, but I stand on my statement (which they seem to support) that at core they are doing the same thing.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:09 AM   #159
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I think I also have to state that Mike has proved time and again, in person and on the net, that these basics form the basis for all of these different usages.

Many people (including some posting here) at one point in time or another took the tack being expressed here, or even took offense at some of these statements (myself included). But time has bourne out the truth of the perspective that these things are basics, and inter-related, in spite of the different approaches to usage in different arts.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:56 PM   #160
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
, in spite of the different approaches to usage in different arts.
It's confusing. Different approaches, different terms, different levels of the full abilities, different "purity" (some are "harder" due to the admixture of muscle to the process), and so on. But at heart it's all the same thing. When you see the Yin-Yang symbol, "Five Elements", "Eight Gates", and so on and so on, which you do in pretty much every Asian martial-art... that's the giveaway that they're talking about the same core principles of movement, despite any superficial differences.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:17 PM   #161
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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David Orange wrote: View Post
If you try to link through the wiki, it doesn't work because the url is like this:

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/peng-index.htm:

If you remove the final colon, as I did above, you can see the articles.
There are other approaches to this as well that track the same principles in different terminology. Review this:
Specifically this:
Quote:
,;... storing power in the spine refers to an antagonistic relationship deliberately developed in the back. This "storing" of power is similar to the tension buildup in your finger just before you flick something away.
The mechanical word for what was just described is "shear" -- and when developed as a result of the poised moment in the lower lordosis curvature of the spine, it looks like this:

Click image for larger version

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Quote:
"…the ch'i adheres to the back and permeates the spine" is a reference in the T'ai Chi Classics which refers to the storing of power in this manner.

The "storing" can be described as restraining an opening move with a closing move and then releasing it. Hence, the contradictory designation.
. Opening and closing are ways of looking at the reciprocal rotations of limbs used to create leverage in the use of ordinary strength (curl or press, in the case of arms). In the case of the subject being discussed (however it is termed), the principle is not to use the resulting tension or compression effect of the leverage around the joint to do work, but to fix both ends of the set-up lever, not allowing those rotations but letting the reciprocal moments develop without the movement, and then use the shear, instead, when it is released to drive movement in progressive (vice reciprocal, i.e.- push-pull) rotations of the segments of the body and limbs. It is the motion of cutting with the sword as well, or alternatively, of gathering with the arm.

That is what is described here, in the source cited [ http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren...e-1/how-to.htm ]
Quote:
Without using any shoulder or arm tension, straighten directly toward your partner... relaxedly straightening into their push.
This is letting the moments at release propagate through the body in a progressive shear movement -- unfurling, if you will, without using direct leverage. "Windings," I believe, is the term the source uses.

Similarly, Asagao -- a term I have heard used by some DTR folks -- is another way of describing that progressive shear in either expansion and retraction of structure -- equivalent to the description in the source quoted [ http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren...aining-tip.htm ]:

Asagao is the morning glory blossom -- seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuJfh...eature=related

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:33 PM   #162
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Just to be clear, since some old articles of mine from the early 90's are being used, part of the question was and is how to say something so that people can understand the concept in order to get their foot in the door. The problem with "shear" forces (they're referred to as "contradiction forces" or "antagonisitc forces" in the old literature) is that the way Erick presents it conflates the meaning with simple muscular tension. There's more to it than that; how you train for "contradiction", etc., has a lot to do with breathing techniques and "jin" forces and conditioning the body. If it was simple, everyone would be doing it. "Shear forces" is enough misleading that I would personally discard it.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:13 PM   #163
David Orange
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There's more to it than that; how you train for "contradiction", etc., has a lot to do with breathing techniques and "jin" forces and conditioning the body. If it was simple, everyone would be doing it. "Shear forces" is enough misleading that I would personally discard it.
I did like this description of yours:

",;... storing power in the spine refers to an antagonistic relationship deliberately developed in the back. This "storing" of power is similar to the tension buildup in your finger just before you flick something away."

I could immediately feel that when I thought of delivering a xingyi punch. It seems it would just be much "smaller" in a tai ji application. And sort of halfway between in bagua's dropping palm strike.

As for asagao, I can see that relationship, especially with the video, but I understood it to refer to the way the hand is held. Of course, if that's priming the whole suit, then it could apply to the whole body.

Anyway, I think using those articles plus some of Rob's stuff (basically, everything on Tim Fong's site), plus the aunkai site, would help immensely to developing a common understanding from which various effective approaches could be discussed with much less friction.

Thanks.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-16-2009 at 04:16 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:22 PM   #164
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, since some old articles of mine from the early 90's are being used, part of the question was and is how to say something so that people can understand the concept in order to get their foot in the door. The problem with "shear" forces (they're referred to as "contradiction forces" or "antagonisitc forces" in the old literature) is that the way Erick presents it conflates the meaning with simple muscular tension.
And to be equally clear the shear is the result of opposed contradictory moments caused by a pinned lever in the structure. Osae waza are creating and directing shear INTO a target structure to disorganize its material (potentially damaging , like snapping a pencil), whereas other techniques and principles of movement are directing shear through or from a target structure to disorganize its stability, like tipping out the haunch of a block arch so it collapses.

That pinned lever in the body is not necessarily caused by local muscular tension. There need not be (although there can be) local muscular exertion involved in creating the situation in question. I can analogize with the already mentioned finger-on-the-table example, which can be created either by extending the finger against the table ( local muscular tension, or by holding the finger in a set position and shifting the weight of the arm or body to bear more on the finger (taijuuido) in a direction that creates a high lateral shear ( attention to "angles," I believe was mentioned in the text). They are similar in appearance, and yet different in both the cause and the effect. The muscular action we are discussing is core-driven, not local. The rest of the structure just propagates what is set up and then driven from the core.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There's more to it than that; how you train for "contradiction", etc., has a lot to do with breathing techniques and "jin" forces and conditioning the body. If it was simple, everyone would be doing it. "Shear forces" is enough misleading that I would personally discard it.
I am describing the mechanical principle that is acting, and described plainly in other terms in the works and traditional concepts cited -- what is done, not how to train to do it. I have only one prescription for that and it is the one I have trained in -- which is not to say it is the only or even the best or to derogate others that are effective in using related physical principles. .

I only made the point simply because the discussion was teetering on issues of not disclosing terms of art or concepts that are proprietary to a traditional system. Mechanics is not proprietary (nor even culturally restrictive, these days) and should not cause the same concern to our kobujutsu buddies. I mentioned asagao becuas eit may provide a DTR template that is already "out there" for the Roppokai and others to address or key off of without treading on their oaths.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-16-2009 at 04:31 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:44 PM   #165
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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I did like this description of yours:

",;... storing power in the spine refers to an antagonistic relationship deliberately developed in the back. This "storing" of power is similar to the tension buildup in your finger just before you flick something away."
I liked it, too. Notice that I said "similar too", because there are some factors that only surface after a fair amount of practice. Very important factors. I don't say that in any smug or secretive way, but as a caution (that is needed, very often) that the superficial and obvious is simply not it. I.e., I'm trying to save someone a mistaken journey into a cul de sac.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Mechanics is not proprietary (nor even culturally restrictive, these days) and should not cause the same concern to our kobujutsu buddies.
I agree and that's the point I've tried to make a number of times. I know enough "secrets" to know that it should be fairly easy to discuss the level of skills and skill-training that have been generally discussed on this forum without much concern for having been unfaithful, etc. I also know for a fact that unless someone really has true skills they can't piece together much from the discussions... they're more likely to simply go down a wrong path (seen it happen many a time).

My point being, again, that there's no reason not to talk and a lot of reason for more people to engage in the discussion if they really are serious about the arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 05:43 PM   #166
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how that's any different than what I said. Ask Kuroda what he means by "gravity" (or just look at the two ki demo's at the end of that video, because that's what he's talking about, then ask him if those demo's show "gravity") and you might understand what I mean by the core principles being the same. I mentioned that there were superficial differences, but I stand on my statement (which they seem to support) that at core they are doing the same thing.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, Mike, but if you go back over my posts, I always say there is some overlap. I also talk about gravity, the body and mind being the same so there is some commonality. I am not so sure we are actually saying such different things now, if that is what you are referring to as basic principles. If that is what you are referring to as basic principles, then I am in fact in agreement with you.

Where the differences lay (I will leave out any teacher's names here because this may well be breaching my promise) is in things like the following example: of the 5 schools I have mentioned so far, 2 train and stress "breath power", and three say that "breath power" is not a part of IT and have no training in kokyu-ho. This is just one of a few distinctions that I have seen and heard about from the teachers. Is not breath power a principle in your book?

Last edited by R H : 01-16-2009 at 05:52 PM. Reason: took out a misleading word
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Old 01-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #167
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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I am not so sure we are actually saying such different things now, if that is what you are referring to as basic principles. If that is what you are referring to as basic principles, then I am in fact in agreement with you.
OK.
Quote:

Where the differences lie (I will leave out any teacher's names here because this may well be breaching my promise) is in things like the following example: of the 5 schools I have mentioned so far, 2 train and stress "breath power", and three say that "breath power" is not a part of IT and have no training in kokyu-ho. This is just one of a few distinctions that I have seen and heard about from the teachers. Is not breath power a principle in your book?
Well, I'm not sure what "breath power" you mean. That's part of the point of the discussion. Can you tell me what you mean by "breath power"? And then I can tell you what I mean by "breath power" and then we begin to get a commonality of terms, more people get into the discussion and at the very least the baseline discussion moves upward, which benefits the arts.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 05:59 PM   #168
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Thought of another example that I think would be fair to use as it is publicly accessible information. Okamoto Sensei states the three main principles of his art are breath-power, circular movement and conditioned reflex. Several of the schools that I have mentioned above do not use breath power or circular motion. Would the three things Okamoto Sensei listed as his 3 main principles constitute principles in your estimation?
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Old 01-16-2009, 06:08 PM   #169
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK. Well, I'm not sure what "breath power" you mean. That's part of the point of the discussion. Can you tell me what you mean by "breath power"? And then I can tell you what I mean by "breath power" and then we begin to get a commonality of terms, more people get into the discussion and at the very least the baseline discussion moves upward, which benefits the arts.

Best.

Mike Sigman
1. Breathing in on reception of another's power and out on the release of that power was one of the breath power methods.

2. Of a different school, is to NOT breath in during the other person's attack and to breath out on yours (contradictory to the first example).

3. To match breathing with the partner (which I think happens naturally when you simply relax), so whether or not a school trains in this intentionally or not, if they are relaxing it is naturally occuring phenomenon in my opinion. Note: there are varying degrees of relaxation, so what is one person's "relaxed" may be another person's "strained".

All three examples are termed "Breath Power".

Last edited by R H : 01-16-2009 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:08 PM   #170
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Mike, I had an idea to help clarify whether or not we are indeed referring to the same principles. By restricting our options of movement we can see if we are talking about the same thing or not.

Test one:
Uke stands next to a vertical iron pole or smallish tree that is firmly in the ground, and grabs onto it with one hand firmly, while standing erect and firmly grabs on to your lightly extended finger (your arm is extended lightly). You are standing erect and directly in front of the uke. He grabs your finger firmly and does his best to prevent you from moving. You are not allowed to move your body in any way, nor your feet (no turning either - even a fraction of an inch) and you must lightly hold your breath (to prevent a breath method application). Your only allowed movement is to bring your finger horizontally to the side (opposite direction of the pole), SLOWLY. You are not allowed to move your hand towards the ground in any way (do not break the horizontal plain). The questions are, can uke resist this and hold onto the pole? Is he sent flying without you even intending to throw him? Does your finger hurt or feel strained in anyway. Is there any sense of heaviness? If done correctly using only aiki, the uke's grip will be ripped from the pole easily and he will be sent tumbling off to the side effortlessly and not even be able to hold on to your finger when he falls.

I've got a few other tests which I would like to pose, but I have to run now.

Last edited by R H : 01-16-2009 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:23 PM   #171
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Richard Haight wrote: View Post
1. Breathing in on reception of another's power and out on the release of that power was one of the breath power methods.

2. Of a different school, is to NOT breath in during the other person's attack and to breath out on yours (contradictory to the first example).

3. To match breathing with the partner (which I think happens naturally when you simply relax), so whether or not a school trains in this intentionally or not, if they are relaxing it is naturally occuring phenomenon in my opinion. Note: there are varying degrees of relaxation, so what is one person's "relaxed" may be another person's "strained".

All three examples are termed "Breath Power".
Well, if all 3 are termed "breath power", but they're all different, which one is it? Or do you have any different meaning yourself? I.e., what do YOU mean by "breath power"?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:28 PM   #172
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Richard Haight wrote: View Post
Mike, I had an idea to help clarify whether or not we are indeed referring to the same principles. By restricting our options of movement we can see if we are talking about the same thing or not.

Test one:
Uke stands next to a vertical iron pole or smallish tree that is firmly in the ground, and grabs onto it with one hand firmly, while standing erect and firmly grabs on to your lightly extended finger (your arm is extended lightly). You are standing erect and directly in front of the uke. He grabs your finger firmly and does his best to prevent you from moving. You are not allowed to move your body in any way, nor your feet (no turning either - even a fraction of an inch) and you must lightly hold your breath (to prevent a breath method application). Your only allowed movement is to bring your finger horizontally to the side (opposite direction of the pole), SLOWLY. You are not allowed to move your hand towards the ground in any way (do not break the horizontal plain). The questions are, can uke resist this and hold onto the pole? Is he sent flying without you even intending to throw him? Does your finger hurt or feel strained in anyway. Is there any sense of heaviness? If done correctly using only aiki, the uke's grip will be ripped from the pole easily and he will be sent tumbling off to the side effortlessly and not even be able to hold on to your finger when he falls.

I've got a few other tests which I would like to pose, but I have to run now.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Richard, I dunno. I'm having second thoughts about just "talking". How about I narrow it down to saying more "how things are done" rather than just "talking"? Would that work?

For instance, just "talking" could result in me trying to have a coherent conversation with a student of this guy, yet I doubt we'd go very far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2B...layer_embedded

One of his students could suggest to me that if I couldn't make someone do the Boing-Boing Dance that I wasn't talking about the same "chi power" he was talking about. If you see the problem from my perspective.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:45 PM   #173
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Richard Haight wrote: View Post
If done correctly using only aiki, the uke's grip will be ripped from the pole easily and he will be sent tumbling off to the side effortlessly and not even be able to hold on to your finger when he falls.
I'd like to feel that.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:26 PM   #174
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Mike, I definitely agree that just talking about this stuff really doesn't tend to go far. Got to communicate body to body in order to reach understanding. That said, I am enjoying our conversation emensely. I do not often have a chance to talk about these things outside of my dojo. Although I am certainly constrained as to how much I can discuss here, even the little that we have been able to exchange has been very enjoyable for me. Thank you for that.

Regarding the video, I have never seen any uke respond like that to any techniques of any teacher I have had hands on experience with. Have you felt this teacher and had a similar response (ie the jumping around well after contact has been broken)?

The test that I am referring to is nothing special in my opinion. It is merely meant to limit the physical body to the point where you need to rely entirely on aiki skills and not on muscle power, leverage, pushing. pulling, lifting, etc. There is nothing mystical about the exercise I detailed nor is it a particularily high level thing in my opinion. I would guess that a well trained 2-3 years of experience aiki practitioner (shoden oku) could do this after playing with it for a bit. The test should work on just the average Joe off the street without him having been told what will happen or having seen anyone else do this exercise, so it is not limited to a believer.

Last edited by R H : 01-16-2009 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:48 PM   #175
R H
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hi Rick,
I would imagine that many of Horikawa's advanced students can perform the exercise I detailed as it is not a very high level thing. Come to Japan for some extensive training (develop a relationship) and then pose some aiki challenges for the purpose of exploring pertinent techniques. So long as it applies to a technique you are learning, I can't see why a teacher would turn a request like this down.
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