Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-02-2009, 07:44 PM   #201
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

I like uncertainty as a principle; except when I don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 07:46 PM   #202
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
WOW, alot of good exchange of ideas. Too bad it's brought down by "barnyard" politics. We may get to the bottom of just what Ki is, how it works/ flows/manifests itself (or not), etc, only if we can minimize the "if you don't think like me, then you just mis-perceive", we might come to the conclusion that it can't be proven in a lab, but can't be denied.
Btw, premise of which question?
Actually, it wasn't directed at you as such. The premise was this:
Quote:
Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading all the universe
You seemed to accept that premise. Strictly speaking it is wrong, because Ki is not energy. Ki, understood as oscillation is the framework for all energy pervading the universe, and also the framework of all mass pervading the universe and -- also -- the framework of all nothing pervading the universe -- vacuum fluctuation, the very busy "nothing" that is everywhere. I think that about covers it.

I do take it that you were not speaking strictly, but the misperception lies in assuming that the use of "energy" in the loose sense can equate to Ki in the strict sense -- and it can't, the concept is both far broader in scope and much more narrow in concept.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 07:54 PM   #203
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I like uncertainty as a principle; except when I don't.
I KNEW that would be your position -- but now, I do not know where you are heading ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 08:02 PM   #204
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Well, at least you know where I am
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 07:31 PM   #205
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Actually, it wasn't directed at you as such.
So, what does that mean? I'm not allowed to respond? As far as I know, if it's posted, it's open to response. This is a public forum, right(oh, btw, this is the thread, not the blog)?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The premise was this:
Quote:
Erik Mead incorrectly paraphrasing GeneC? wrote:
Ki is a part of the energy spectrum pervading( : to become diffused throughout every part of )
all the universe
You seemed to accept that premise. Strictly speaking it is wrong,
Ok, "Strickly speaking". Funny why'd you say "Strickly speaking"? Would the meaning change if we spoke 'less strictly', or 'not strictly' at all? Do you have to say "Strickly Speaking" to make a (opposing) point? Change it so you could say it's wrong? What I said was:
Quote:
GeneC wrote:
There's a huge spectrum of energy flowing thru the universe, that makes all things exist, from the entire expanding Universe.....to revolving atoms, all things we know of are in it: sound- ultra sound to microwaves, X rays, Gamma rays, etc, color, light, electricity, magnetism , electro-magnetism, etc. The energy we call spiritual is part of that spectrum. The Japanese call it Ki the Chinese call it Ch'i. We just mostly call it a higher power( unless we use another cultures word
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
...because Ki is not energy.
Unproven

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Ki, as understood as oscillation...
Understood by whom? My first understanding of "oscillation"was that fan in the liviing room. So, you say Ki is not energy , but it oscillates.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
...is the framework for all energy pervading( editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe, and also the framework of all mass pervading(editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe and -- also -- the framework of all nothing pervading(editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) the universe -- vacuum fluctuation, the very busy "nothing" that is pervading (editted to define:to become diffused throughout every part of ) everywhere. I think that about covers it
I think it basically covers.... not alot( except i.e., trying to put a square peg into a round hole), certainly not some perceived premise that you perceived me to perceive. Yes, I think that about covers it.

.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 07:54 PM   #206
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Gene,

If you'll allow, may I ask you a question?

Does the idea of a bursting seed illustrate something essential to your idea of "ki"?

For me, the creative potential of life is a powerful idea. Since you mentioned it earlier, I'd respectfully invite you to add to your comment. The concept of "ki" is, after all, an issue that interested you enough to start a conversation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 08:28 PM   #207
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
So, what does that mean? I'm not allowed to respond? As far as I know, if it's posted, it's open to response. This is a public forum, right(oh, btw, this is the thread, not the blog)?
You are free to respond, it was just not a personal comment toward you.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Ok, "Strickly speaking". Funny why'd you say "Strickly speaking"? Would the meaning change if we spoke 'less strictly', or 'not strictly' at all? Do you have to say "Strickly Speaking" to make a (opposing) point? Change it so you could say it's wrong?
No. I said it because you (like many, many good and worthy people) tend to use the word "energy" in this context in its loosest possible connotations, whereas I mean it in its strict physical sense, and which I meant merely to distinguish, not criticize. Nothing more. Really.

Quote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
...because Ki is not energy.
Unproven
That part is pretty definite. Mass and energy are distinct in our physics, even though they are also deemed equivalent. Ki specifically conflates them in the traditional sources.
Quote:
Miura Baien: Genkiron wrote:
The ki that we can see is the ki that fills up a space, but this is not all there is to ki. The One primal ki forms all the things of heaven and earth, material and non-material, omitting nothing.
Energy is not material. Therefore, Ki is not energy. Though Ki also plainly forms both mass and energy.

Quote:
GeneC wrote:
So, you say Ki is not energy , but it oscillates.
No, that is exactly not what I said, but it is precisely the misperception I mentioned and am attempting to gently correct. Ki, in this understanding IS oscillation, which is to say in physical terms that it IS angular momentum. Oscillation forms matter and forms energy and is KI -- Ki is neither mass nor energy, but forms both. What it is that Ki forms so as to make mass and energy is a question that escapes us -- as yet. A mystery -- as my tradition would have it.

A mystery may be unproven, but it is not necessarily unknown.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-03-2009 at 08:30 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 08:50 PM   #208
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 679
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Ki, in this understanding IS oscillation, which is to say in physical terms that it IS angular momentum. Oscillation forms matter and forms energy and is KI -- Ki is neither mass nor energy, but forms both. What it is that Ki forms so as to make mass and energy is a question that escapes us -- as yet. A mystery -- as my tradition would have it.
Plainly stated and finally understood. Thanks Erick.

Ron
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 09:40 PM   #209
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Gene,

If you'll allow, may I ask you a question?

Does the idea of a bursting seed illustrate something essential to your idea of "ki"?

For me, the creative potential of life is a powerful idea. Since you mentioned it earlier, I'd respectfully invite you to add to your comment. The concept of "ki" is, after all, an issue that interested you enough to start a conversation.
Yes, to me, Ki is one of the most wonderful things in the Universe, that a human being can experience, while alive. Ki is the opportunity to 'tap' (for lack of a better word) into the "energy spectrum" in the Universe and channel it out of your own body with the power akin to that of a bursting seed (or the energy released in a popcorn, etc), but the relevancy you're asking about is the mystery as to where the energy comes from, like that of a newborn baby's first breath. AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how.

I'm really having a hard time accepting the 'oscillating' theory explaining Ki, IMO, as it explains the energy transfer of a Slinky more than anything else.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2009, 11:12 PM   #210
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how.
The problem with that is that I don't think that will get you very far... If emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body, a blood-curdling ki-ai *could* be what you're looking for, however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.

The only 3 keys (pun intended) as it pertains to martial application are ten no ki, chi no ki, and jin no ki. Looking elsewhere, to me, would be a waste of time...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 12:21 AM   #211
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The problem with that is that I don't think that will get you very far... If emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body, a blood-curdling ki-ai *could* be what you're looking for, however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.

The only 3 keys (pun intended) as it pertains to martial application are ten no ki, chi no ki, and jin no ki. Looking elsewhere, to me, would be a waste of time...
I dunno Ignatius, I think I'm digging the channeling...channeling my IQ points down the drainage ditch that is
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 02:53 AM   #212
Carl Thompson
 
Carl Thompson's Avatar
Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 453
Japan
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.
Maybe look at this before you go any further with this argument.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 08:13 AM   #213
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Maybe look at this before you go any further with this argument.
And this:http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=28

The quoted portion of Abe Sensei is from here: http://www.doshinokai.com/Aikido_Dos...les/Kojiki.pdf

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 09:04 AM   #214
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Yes, to me, Ki is one of the most wonderful things in the Universe, that a human being can experience, while alive. Ki is the opportunity to 'tap' (for lack of a better word) into the "energy spectrum" in the Universe and channel it out of your own body with the power akin to that of a bursting seed (or the energy released in a popcorn, etc), but the relevancy you're asking about is the mystery as to where the energy comes from, like that of a newborn baby's first breath. AFA I know, my sig tells me where and when, now just need to learn the how.
Try 'Musu' and then add a 'Take'.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 09:41 AM   #215
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Gene,

Thank you for your sincere answer.

FWIW, the way a number of people approach training to harness more power in their arts is pretty similar to training for internal power in CMA, which I know you've also studied.

On that subject, I guess I agree with what Budd said a few pages back -- it's less important what you call it (or how you understand it), than figuring out a way to train so you can manifest it.

Do you have any thoughts on training the body in a way that accesses ki as you understand it?

Respectfully,

DH
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2009, 09:43 AM   #216
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Nice little description of building up the interior muscles which are needed to do the body skills mentioned by others...
Quote:
The center is under the navel. There are 2 muscles which are vertical and diagonal muscle
under the navel. When you hold in your stomach at practice of Misogi, you can see the muscles.
When you hold in your stomach during serious practice of Misogi, you would feel that the skin
on your stomach sticks to your back. If you practice those 4 kinds of breathing in such situation,
you would get great concentration power.
You hold breathing in the lower part of lung. This power transmits to abdominal muscle. The
abdominal muscle was built up by the practice with breathing. That's why the shape of
abdominal muscle built by Aikido is different from the muscle built by push-ups or physical
exercise.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 06:45 PM   #217
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The problem with that is that I don't think that will get you very far... If emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body, a blood-curdling ki-ai *could* be what you're looking for, however the harmony of yin/yang cannot exist between the breath coz you'd be breathing out at that time.
How do you figure that? Please explain how "between the breath" is "breathing out at the same time"? at the same time?
Anyway, Pure energy flowing FREELY thru the body is not reliant on anything else, kinda like the energy flowing in/around/from the Sun in this Solar System. I'd think the "Ki-ai" or kai-i" or Ai'-yai-yai"or "oorrahh" 'd be the focus point to "expel" the Ki that's been built up, along with breathing out, while simultaneously performing the action. The LOCATION of Ki( and the harmony of Yin/Yang) is at the moment between breathing in and breathing out, like my sig says.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 09:28 PM   #218
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Gene,Thank you for your sincere answer.....Do you have any thoughts on training the body in a way that accesses ki as you understand it?Respectfully,DH
OK, Dave, respectfully as well, before we go further, let's not "beat around the bush". If you have a direct issue here, let's get to it.
I have Stephan Stenudd's book,"QI: Increase your life enrgy" and intend on practicing all the exersizes that it suggests to increase my QI, but other than that, my experience has been what I've been taught in the past and that was exercise my core strength to it's maximum and maintain a healthy diet and cardio regime, but other than that, to focus all my energy into my action and perform that action to the best of my ability and it's always worked for me. YMMV

Last edited by GeneC : 01-06-2009 at 09:30 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2009, 11:23 PM   #219
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
How do you figure that? Please explain how "between the breath" is "breathing out at the same time"? at the same time?...The LOCATION of Ki( and the harmony of Yin/Yang) is at the moment between breathing in and breathing out, like my sig says.
What Abe Sensei said -- the center you seek moves around -- it is no more static than the breath. The breath process cycles, and there are many "still" points of different character in that cycle.

There are three forms of breath. Passive breath -- breath driven mostly by motions elsewhere in the body or from outside the body is ten no kokyu. Breath driven intensively by the whole apparatus devoted to breathing is chi no kokyu. Just breathing easily like we naturally breathe is jin no kokyu.

First, there is inhaling from slack breath, or exhaling from the slack -- the lungs are never empty. Two still points. And there is arriving at slack from inhaling , or from exhaling. That is two more for four points of stillness -- all zero with low innate potential and with different vectors. There is also reversal at the maximum phases with high innate potential at the reversal between inhalation and exhalation and the reversal between exhalation and inhalation . That's two more.

But there are two more -- one where the exhalation phase shifts from passive (static tension) to be active, driven by intentional muscular contraction. (Heaven and earth meet.) The other one is the same shift during inhalation. These can be shifted around because people can actively drive their breath at various points in the cycle.

They can choose to drive it or they can also choose to stop it in the same manner. When stopped they can reverse the driving vector (two more) at that point, or allow the natural breath to take over in whatever direction (two more).

Aiming for harmony in kokyu with an opponent is not a simplistic proposition, I hope to make clear.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2009, 06:24 AM   #220
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
OK, Dave, respectfully as well, before we go further, let's not "beat around the bush". If you have a direct issue here, let's get to it.
Gene, I fully understand why you might think so, given past conflict. To answer your question, I don't have an issue here. Thank you for your response, which is interesting in itself.

Respectfully,

DH
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 07:42 AM   #221
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki, Chi, and "Energy"

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
OK, Dave, respectfully as well, before we go further, let's not "beat around the bush". If you have a direct issue here, let's get to it.
I have Stephan Stenudd's book,"QI: Increase your life enrgy" and intend on practicing all the exersizes that it suggests to increase my QI, but other than that, my experience has been what I've been taught in the past and that was exercise my core strength to it's maximum and maintain a healthy diet and cardio regime, but other than that, to focus all my energy into my action and perform that action to the best of my ability and it's always worked for me. YMMV
I'm not familiar with that book. What kind of exercises are included in that book? Have you noticed any results? Can your training partners feel a difference? Have those results carried over into your daily life in terms of movement?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Energy" Neil Mick Language 48 07-20-2006 06:33 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:02 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate