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Old 01-04-2009, 07:26 PM   #101
GeneC
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Ya know what??
And I'm not seeing anyone (besides myself ) saying that this topic is moot, because of lack of 1st hand empirical data.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
Understood, Mr. Pot.
Mary, Mary, quite contrary, what agenda do you perceive me to have? I'm merely trying to explore the oxymoron known as Aikido.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 01-04-2009, 07:44 PM   #102
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
And I'm not seeing anyone (besides myself ) saying that this topic is moot, because of lack of 1st hand empirical data.
Well, it seems you're not going to answer the questions I made to you...

Your agenda is that you can't deal with this fact: with your claimed martial arts training you was owned by a street punk. You failed where others succeeded. You are the oxymoron, not aikido.

 
Old 01-04-2009, 07:50 PM   #103
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

How can one explore with eyes wide shut?

It's a loaded question, of course.
 
Old 01-04-2009, 08:02 PM   #104
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Hi George,

I just wanted to say thank you for your recent posts in this thread. I appreciate your taking the time to put them down into words and sharing them with us.

Best,

-- Jun

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Old 01-04-2009, 09:24 PM   #105
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi George,

I just wanted to say thank you for your recent posts in this thread. I appreciate your taking the time to put them down into words and sharing them with us.

Best,

-- Jun
Happy New Year Jun!
I know I have been away for a while... Most of the stuff I have been thinking about regarding Aikido doesn't really lend itself to written discussion. It's so much easier to show in person.The ideas that I have which do lend themselves to the written form I have mostly already put down (there was a period there when I wrote constantly). It doesn't seem very useful to keep restating them, except on those rare occasions when I get irritated and am moved to action. I like the Aikido Journal policy of recycling the old articles. Stuff I wrote years ago magically reappears as if newly minted and it often reaches a new audience. Of course people can find old material in the archives of the discussions here on the forum but you can see that only some people actually do research a subject before starting a new thread. Anyway, it's good to be posting again for as long as it lasts.

I am really looking forward to the Aikiweb seminar in Seattle. It will be an honor to teach alongside those fellows, I can tell you. I'll see you then.
- George

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Old 01-04-2009, 09:34 PM   #106
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
When I read Erick's words, I thought of lines from T. S. Eliot's poem "Ash Wednesday":
...
Teach us to care and not to care
Teach us to sit still. [/i]
Eliot is always welcome. The discussion had actually already recalled to me this line of his: ""I will show you fear in a handful of dust."

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"...to care and not to care" -- does that perhaps describe the line that separates connection from attachment? Feeling that a connection exists, but renouncing attachment to the outcome? And was Eliot only able to renounce such attachment when he finally accepted that he didn't control the outcome?
In one way of viewing it, non-attachment is a way to harness the ego -- by diminishing it, in a sense, to but another object among others, an identity of objects.

The other option -- the mode of aikido as I see it (and while we are at it, Christianity, explicitly) is enlarge the "I" to include the one attacking me, my neighbor and, ultimately, the Godhead itself. Neither O Sensei's declared goals, nor the Two Great Commandments of Christ leave any room for misunderstanding on this one. Love results in an identity of subjects.

As an infant, my unruly arm was not made obedient to my will by beating it into cowed submission. I learned it was part of me and began to cooperate with its nature and thus to make it more fully of me, nor as a matter of will, at all, but as a matter of perfect identity. My arm, after a few months accommodation ("to make fit") is now just "me." In raising my hand I do not "will" an "it." I simply move myself.

My neighbor, my enemy, indeed, my God, is no different, and the means in every case is exactly the same -- Love. Many people accept this as a sympathetic and even intellectually valid principle of the mind and heart. We are, for better or worse not merely minds and hearts, but messy, hormonal, instinctive bodies -- "this quintessence of dust." Aikido is teaching this lesson to the as yet recalcitrant body.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 01-04-2009, 09:43 PM   #107
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quote:
GeneC wrote:
My question stands- Who has been in combat and used Aikido with enough regularity to say for sure if Aikido is effective in combat?
Define "combat"
Define "aikido"
Define "enough regularity"
Define "effective"

Please. Thanks.
No need D. The answer to Gene's question is a man, name of Morihei Ueshiba, sadly deceased, who taught many, wrote a little -- and his record speaks for itself. I hear one can perhaps even learn some of what he taught -- oh, here and there.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 01-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #108
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

[quote=Marlon Hester;222833]I am the author of this post, obviously, and I want to apologize to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I should have never given the title "Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation", because that is not what I was trying to get at. This has been discussed so many times. My real intention for this post was to get at why we train and dedicate so much of our lives to the Martial Arts.

Regardless I can see that enough people feel strongly enough that some of you have added more then a few responses to this thread and I think thats great. My intentions were to touch on the deep rooted reasons as to why we train.

Fighting is always associated with Martial Arts and so little of what we really do can be considered fighting in the practical sense. As a newbie I wanted to first define my thoughts of the difference between fighting and actual street lethal combat. Once we came to that common ground identify whether YOU ALL felt that training for street confrontations is a realistic goal that is achievable.

Then asking the question of those that have been in training for sometime if self-defense is not the goal then what is your real purpose for dedication to the art.

So with respect to all the senior teachers and students here who feel that I am rehashing an old topic, I will say that I only meant to take this issue further a long from the same old "Aikido is to soft" or "Aikido can't beat MMA" arguments.

Having said that I really do appreciate all your comments and perspectives. Once I get up and running with my own Aikido studies I would love sharing my ongoing development of self-discovery.[/QUOTE

Good luck with your training!

There is so much that goes into studying budo and developing yourself as a "warrior" and preparing for whatever conflict may come your way physically or mentally. It is more than just the "hard" skills, although that is a big part of it too. Living a balanced and happy life, and being physically and mentally fit and stable are key. Moderation.

Anyway, I hope you find joy and happiness in your future training as I have found in mine!

 
Old 01-05-2009, 05:15 AM   #109
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The answer to Gene's question is a man, name of Morihei Ueshiba, sadly deceased, who taught many, wrote a little -- and his record speaks for itself. I hear one can perhaps even learn some of what he taught -- oh, here and there.
I'm pretty sure lots of aikido practitioneers would lecture the founder about what aikido is about if the old guy were still alive and posting here.

 
Old 01-05-2009, 06:28 AM   #110
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
And I'm not seeing anyone (besides myself ) saying that this topic is moot, because of lack of 1st hand empirical data.
Given that the word "moot", in common parlance, has multiple meanings, some of which contradict each other, I can't even begin to address this until I know which (real or made-up) meaning of the word you're using. Do you mean "debatable", or do you mean "deprived of practical significance", or do you have yet another meaning that you're using?

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Mary, Mary, quite contrary
You do like to use that phrase. If I call you Clarence the Clown, is that going to raise the tone of the discourse?
 
Old 01-05-2009, 07:31 AM   #111
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
My neighbor, my enemy, indeed, my God, is no different, and the means in every case is exactly the same -- Love. Many people accept this as a sympathetic and even intellectually valid principle of the mind and heart. We are, for better or worse not merely minds and hearts, but messy, hormonal, instinctive bodies -- "this quintessence of dust." Aikido is teaching this lesson to the as yet recalcitrant body.
Up until now, the aikido "connection" business hasn't made sense to me (it hasn't made non-sense either, if you know what I mean)...but you just made it click with something that's already part of my world view (the Very Small Being from Sheri Tepper's novel "Grass", kind of obscure I guess). Thanks for this very much, Erick. That's about all the verbage I have for this very non-verbal set of feelings and concepts, which is not to say that I don't greatly appreciate the verbage of others...only if I don't say much more, it's because I'm letting it all soak in (or letting me soak into it).
 
Old 01-05-2009, 08:31 AM   #112
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
My point is very simple, I don't believe there's anough folks here who have used Aikido often enough in combat to say how effective it is in combat, but I see other folks taking advantage of this thread to further their own agendas. Alot oif stuff has been discussed thathave b=nothing to do with the topic, so I's just merely trying to get the thread back onto being thread specific. My question stands- Who has been in combat and used Aikido with enough regularity to say for sure if Aikido is effective in combat?
I believe you're correct about Aikido having not been used much in combat (particularly after reading Ledyard Sensei's post). I'm not sure you're correct that folks have to have used it in combat to discuss whether or not it has a place there and why or why not. Under that premise, being fairly new to Aikido yourself, you wouldn't have much cause to talk about Aikido at all, would you not? Particularly in light of your comments in various threads to people who have been training in Aikido for years and years; who have the experience-based authority you yourself haven't even come close to having. Am I off base here?
I admire your passion Gene, but it seems to make sense to me why there's an air of combativeness surrounding your conversations.
Please forgive my presumption, but I'm betting if you tried a different tone you might find whatever it is you're looking for a little easier (communication happens better when there's a relaxed connection...kinda like Aikido). Just trying to help...
Sincerely,
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 01-05-2009, 08:50 AM   #113
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure lots of aikido practitioneers would lecture the founder about what aikido is about if the old guy were still alive and posting here.
Given that many people seem to think talking MORE is some elevated form of listening.. I'd have to agree.

They'd also probably call him an aiki-bunny. Boing-Boing. Bounce-Bounce.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 01-05-2009, 08:55 AM   #114
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Please forgive my presumption, but I'm betting if you tried a different tone you might find whatever it is you're looking for a little easier (communication happens better when there's a relaxed connection...kinda like Aikido). Just trying to help...
Sincerely,
Matthew
Maybe a little more Aiki-do and a little less Aiki-don't?

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 01-05-2009, 08:59 AM   #115
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mark Peckett wrote: View Post
Perhaps changing the world requires arrogance and changing yourself needs humility.
"Anyone who strives too far from the majority or the conventional wisdom is bound to be labeled "arrogant," or "a maverick," "a wildman," "weird," or even "crazy."" ~ Dr. John Eliot from Overachievement

Perhaps a little of both makes for good stew. Irimi and Tenkan, as it were.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 01-05-2009, 09:14 AM   #116
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
They'd also probably call him an aiki-bunny. Boing-Boing. Bounce-Bounce.
I doubt it. Though quite full of seeming contradictions, I think anyone taking a serious look at his life and various attitudes would have a hard time justifying that statement. In fact, if anything, I come to the exact opposite conclusion.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 01-05-2009, 09:25 AM   #117
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I doubt it. Though quite full of seeming contradictions, I think anyone taking a serious look at his life and various attitudes would have a hard time justifying that statement. In fact, if anything, I come to the exact opposite conclusion.

Best,
Ron
Yeah, me too. It was joke based in irony.

I think people might take a second look at that phrase, which I really wish they would.

Personally, I'd never use it in all seriousness. It's too close to another kind of derogatory 'Bunny' word we've just gotten over in this country. It always sounds like that to me. And my respect diminishes for those who use it thus.

And Demetrio implied O'Sensei was a senile old man in another of his posts recentl
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Usually, but sometimes senility also appears with age. Imagine for a moment this can be the case.
..So, I figured, What the hell. This was my humorous way of pointing that out.

Thanks for the opportunity to say this.

Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 01-05-2009 at 09:34 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:27 AM   #118
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Talking Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
They'd also probably call him an aiki-bunny. Boing-Boing. Bounce-Bounce.
Sit down on the corner, I will be with you soon!


 
Old 01-05-2009, 09:31 AM   #119
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Bring it on!

Do I really have to explain it was a joke at people who use that phrase?

I'm appalled at the second guessing and dis-respectful manner in which people commonly talk about O'Sensei. I take him at face-value and that value couldn't be higher. I hope other people learn that lesson some day. Until then, I'll just keep kidding about it.

Back to topic?

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 01-05-2009 at 09:40 AM.

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Old 01-05-2009, 09:42 AM   #120
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
And Demetrio called O'Sensei a senile old man in another of his posts recently..So, I figured, What the hell. This was my humorous way of pointing that out.

Thanks for the opportunity to say this.

Jen
You mean as in this post?

Are you a manipulative and covert-agressive person or that was an humorous atempt?

 
Old 01-05-2009, 09:58 AM   #121
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I think people might take a second look at that phrase, which I really wish they would.

Personally, I'd never use it in all seriousness. It's too close to another kind of derogatory 'Bunny' word we've just gotten over in this country.
The other kind of derogatory 'Bunny' word may no longer be commonly used, but the attitude behind it is alive and well. It was bunny, then it was "blonde", now it's just another b-word, what will it be next? They've always got one, you can rest assured of that, and they all mean the same thing. When I'm disparaged by a sexist, I don't really give a damn what word they use.
 
Old 01-05-2009, 09:59 AM   #122
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Is there another category available?
Lots of them.

Quote:
Perhaps you'd like to explain what you meant by that post? I don't understand it.
The "sit down at the corner..." one?

It was a joke*: Someone calls O Sensei an aiki bunny. O Sensei (who by all acounts had a quick temper) says "You're next for ukemi!".

Or the one when I somewhat implied O Sensei was senile?

You have never considered the posibility O Sensei could have became senile at advanced age like many other human beings? He had cancer, like lots of people; the posibility of him having other kind of health issues, like senility, can't be considered?. Why? Was he above nature?

There's nothing "wrong" with becoming senile... It's the nature at work.

Did't you noticed the in the post?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-05-2009 at 10:02 AM.

 
Old 01-05-2009, 10:08 AM   #123
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Yeah, me too. It was joke based in irony.

I think people might take a second look at that phrase, which I really wish they would.

Personally, I'd never use it in all seriousness. It's too close to another kind of derogatory 'Bunny' word we've just gotten over in this country. It always sounds like that to me. And my respect diminishes for those who use it thus.

And Demetrio implied O'Sensei was a senile old man in another of his posts recently
..So, I figured, What the hell. This was my humorous way of pointing that out.

Thanks for the opportunity to say this.

Jen
I think this will suffice.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 01-05-2009, 10:23 AM   #124
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Come on...Rangers know this best!

Do they Kevin?

I always thought the most elite were the Special Air Service.....

"Who dares wins"

But then again......

Tony
What about the Special Boat Service? Amphibious hard men, those guys are incredible.

On the point about getting even with school bullies; that's a little sad is it not? I still recall coming out of a door and being accosted by school friends, having a bar of soap put in my mouth and held down while some of my supposed friends laughed. An unpleasant experience yes but subconscious reason for taking up Aikido, no. If I saw that person again now, I'd hope he'd be embarassed and ashamed but I doubt it. He will always be a fool! Events occur and we move on, learning all the time. Kinda rambled so much I've forgotten my point. Ho hum.
 
Old 01-05-2009, 10:24 AM   #125
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Rangers! Warning Order: Prepare and secure the LZ!! Jun should be arriving here shortly...


 

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