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Old 01-02-2009, 01:23 AM   #1
Erick Mead
 
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Physical Theory of Aiki?

A recent discussion helped crystalize thoughts I have been working on for a while now in the somewhat serendipitous form of an impromptu dialogue. It was in the Spiritual forum on "Ki, Chi and energy" but the physical side really departed the main thrust of that thread, so I split it off here, after I developed the dialogue more formally in my aikiblog. http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why...-of-aiki-3404/

I hope there some critical and constructive comments on where these ideas stand at this point.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:42 AM   #2
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Interesting... the first thing that jumps out is that I only sort of followed your thoughts from ki being a word for oscillation to the practical application. The second, related, thought I had on reading the posts leading up to this is that it seems like such an abstract conception of ki that it seems almost allegorical. Maybe more like ki training would not be as much working with oscillation as working with the idea of oscillation (which I think you should call "wave-ness", because it's cuter and makes me think of the rowing exercise! )

I'm not sure I get the parallel being drawn between ki/oscillation and angular momentum back in the bit about the electromagnetic field, either, although I have found interesting your thoughts on angular momentum and the relative fulcrum in other posts [Was it you who talked about helicopters? I thought that was funny because I always think of ikkyo ura as auto-rotating to the ground ] I mean, I can follow you from angular momentum to angular velocity to moment of inertia, and I can start with an object at rest having a certain inertia given gravity and friction; but I'm hazy on the middle and how it works in terms of application. Again, I could see the idea of oscillation being used as a way to think about what you're training your body to do...

I am not an expert
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:58 AM   #3
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

There seems to be a gap in the level of detail between physics and biology in the Q&A. For example quantum mechanics, do you actually claim that quantum effects are relevant to the uke(uki?)/nage relationship? From the opposite direction, does not the nervous system has anything to do with the way aiki is creating/perceiving?

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Old 01-02-2009, 07:11 AM   #4
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
There seems to be a gap in the level of detail between physics and biology in the Q&A. For example quantum mechanics, do you actually claim that quantum effects are relevant to the uke(uki?)/nage relationship? From the opposite direction, does not the nervous system has anything to do with the way aiki is creating/perceiving?
Ki is not a quantum theory, it began and remains a practical one, but with observations about the nature of the workings of things that does require some delving to assure consistency before we would want to rely on it (from a physical model standpoint). The effort is simply to show that the model of Ki as oscillation tracks at least as far as classical understandings of angular momentum, and a tracks good way into relativistic and quantum mechanical territory, without seeking any durable conquests in those areas.

"Substance" as such is a very knotty problem at the quantum level. Quanta are a theory of substance. Ki is a theory of operation. We only know the "substance" of the operation at that level by virtue of the operation disclosing it to us (the oscillation). If mass has momentum without relative velocity, and photons also have momentum, although they lack any mass, there is an more intrinsic quality in common to both mass and energy wave/particles, more basic than either mass or energy, but involved in producing the appearance of both. Clearly, momentum is a more reduced concept than either mass or energy (much to the chagrin of conventional thinking, which came at the problem backwards (for obvious reasons, given the appearances).

Operation is what the traditional understanding of Ki addresses, and all I hope to address.

And yes the nervous system is in play, but sound (oscillation) moves through the body far faster than nerve impulses to the brain (never mind processing time). So the question of how to manage an information flow in that channel with a much slower system of nervous communication suggests that it may be "skipped over" in operation to rely directly on the compression waves for triggering only local muscular action in this mode (Golgi tendon organs and associated reflex channels for instance, which do not suffer the routing delays of cerebellar motor activation).

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-02-2009 at 07:17 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:00 PM   #5
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Erick,

As I've said elsewhere -- elegant. And it certainly makes sense to me, combined with what you've written in the past about things like whips and torsion tubes, about some important aspects of Aikido interactions.

Minor question: I wonder whether "ki," in the sense you use it, is about "power," or the potential of an input to create a result based on its harmonics. An "oscillatory force amplifier/negator,"

Does that make any sense?

Also, as it may help put meat on the bones (pun intended) over time, I went to the below cite from a link on internal-aiki.com:

http://www.anatomytrains.com. It addresses movement and the role of facia; look at its forums, too, which discuss movement issues in diverse contexts, like rollerblading and tai chi.

I don't see this information as contrary to what Erick is suggesting (nor dependent on it).

But maybe its helpful in understanding the kinds of harmonics that may be set up in the human body, as part of Aikido's "concrete logic."

Regards,

DH
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:13 PM   #6
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Interesting link, David. It ties up, I think, with some other material that's been posted in the Non Aikido Martial traditions forum about the connections between ki and fascia.
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:23 PM   #7
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Raul,

Happy you think so too.

Here's a specific discussion that I found useful:

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...rity/explained

One quote in particular reminded me of things Erick is writing about:

"[T]ension and compression often operate at 90 degrees to each other. Tense a rope and its girth goes into compression. The fibers crowd closer and closer together. Load a pillar, and its girth widens slightly, as the weight it is supporting pushes its molecules apart into tension. If you pull on a rope, its fibers compress together. If you push on a pillar, it gets (maybe only a very little) wider in the middle."

Regards,

David
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:38 PM   #8
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Here's a specific discussion that I found useful:

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...rity/explained

One quote in particular reminded me of things Erick is writing about:

"[T]ension and compression often operate at 90 degrees to each other. Tense a rope and its girth goes into compression. The fibers crowd closer and closer together. Load a pillar, and its girth widens slightly, as the weight it is supporting pushes its molecules apart into tension. If you pull on a rope, its fibers compress together. If you push on a pillar, it gets (maybe only a very little) wider in the middle."
... And exactly the same thing happens on the bias in torsional shear, which you have probably recognized from the torsion tube blog post. Oversimplifying it a bit (but not too much) tensegrity is just compression and tension structures laid out in the torsional shear pattern, but with the tube itself missing -- much like the stress members of truss are in the pattern of a bending/shear stress in a beam, but with the rest of the beam missing. Tensegrity uses almost pure shear to support or resist loads -- it is just decomposed into its positive and negative phases.

I like the anatomy-trains site, but whereas it works on tension and compression as primary quantities and shear as secondary, I tend to think in shear terms as the non-decomposed primary quantity, because it preserves the necessity to see the rotations occuring in all axes.

A very interesting site worth going through and understanding on the placement of fulcrums (fulcra?) and relative mechanical advantage gained by USING the shear in a mechanism, vice trying to compensate it away (the way we do in "normal" muscular joint leverage) is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/

I often illustrate this intentional use of leverage-induced shear by placing my student on the ground with a good grip on my gi lapel and the opposite shoulder (in a good judo form) and then I C-curve my spine (putting shear out the back) and there is absolutely not a damn thing I can do to keep him from tossing me right over him with almost no effort. After he does that, I then let him have the same grip, and then keep my spine in proper posture with upper and lower lordosis intact (shear now going out through the belly ("filling the dantien qi" in Chinese terms). He can lift himself off the floor and hang bodily from my gi for all I care -- but he can't throw me. It generally impresses them enough to begin to pay attention to the form of the body in moving.

What does this have to do with oscialltion you may say? Well, moment (in classical terms) is just the static potential form of angular momentum (the hanging pendulum or balanced broom handle -- depending on the positive or negative phase), so, pretty much it has everything to do with it. The placement of the shear in the dantien orientation maximizes my static moment, and placement the other way just about eliminates it ...

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-02-2009 at 01:49 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:00 PM   #9
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
...
I like the anatomy-trains site, but whereas it works on tension and compression as primary quantities and shear as secondary, I tend to think in shear terms as the non-decomposed primary quantity, because it preserves the necessity to see the rotations occuring in all axes.

A very interesting site worth going through and understanding on the placement of fulcrums (fulcra?) and relative mechanical advantage gained by USING the shear in a mechanism, vice trying to compensate it away (the way we do in "normal" muscular joint leverage) is found here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/
I noted the same thing about shear related to the AT site. Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:16 PM   #10
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

I dropped the following in my blog, thought I'd put it here also.

Aikido was first presented to me as the Way to Union with Ki. With that in mind I'm wondering if a purely physical model of Ki will ever be able to provide a complete picture of that process.

My simplified view, built up over the years, is that I was born into the world fully integrated with the rest of creation and via the process of emergent self awareness and my concurrent socialization as an individual by society, family and friends I was essentially carved out of the whole to assume my role as a distinct person. The emergence of individual forces from a cooling post Big Bang universe is analogous to what I'm attempting to describe. One consequence of my individualization has been the loss of connection with the larger totality of existence that I came into the world with.

O Sensei notes repeatedly (From the Founder's Teachings on AikiWeb):

"…you should let the ki of your thoughts and feelings blend with the Universal."

"The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, ‘I am the universe.'"

"…I am the universe."

"You should realize what the universe is and what you are yourself. To know yourself is to know the universe."

My take on the sentiments expressed in the above quotes, and others of Ueshiba I have come across over the years, is that the Way to Union with Ki is the road that will take me back to the connection I had with the universe before I became fully self aware. There is a barrier that isolates me, that endows me with individuality while shutting me off from communion with the larger totality that I can see and ponder but not partake of.

All this leads me to believe that Ki is a complex integrative process that I can partially understand in terms physical theory. But to unite with Ki I am required to experience it on a level that transcends intellectual understanding.

Ron
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Aikido was first presented to me as the Way to Union with Ki. With that in mind I'm wondering if a purely physical model of Ki will ever be able to provide a complete picture of that process.
I am working at the moment purely on the physical aspect -- I never said it was purely physical. In fact from my physical perspective Ki is seen as the form in which all matter and energy is expressed. Form shapes the operation of substance, which one can view as touching the spiritual. Art has spiritual power for most people because and to the extent that it touches or expresses essential forms.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
... I was born into the world fully integrated with the rest of creation and ... I was essentially carved out of the whole to assume my role as a distinct person. ... One consequence of my individualization has been the loss of connection with the larger totality of existence that I came into the world with.
I think O Sensei was right that the realization of the correct form of action illuminates the nature of this problem.

Quote:
O Sensei wrote:
"…you should let the ki of your thoughts and feelings blend with the Universal."

"The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, ‘I am the universe.'"

"…I am the universe."

"You should realize what the universe is and what you are yourself. To know yourself is to know the universe."
Essentially, most people individuate by opposition, opposing their parents, teachers and others who define external forms. This is a way to try to shape an individuated form by shaping it against or contrary to those externals. The thought is that this a way to develop as distinct from and not defined by those externals. This is an error. The negative of a form is the SAME form, just inverted. To develop only by negating or opposing external forms is to be bound to the forms that came before, and therefore to NOT become who you truly are, your own unique creation, but merely the mirror of what you react against.

(By "you," I don''t mean YOU, Ron) If, having followed this path you get too close to the external forms you have individuated from the similarity becomes too obvious for most people's comfort and so they expend great effort to maintain a distance, in an artificial way from things they are already fitted to. It often results in the situation of the "dead connection" between the individual and others.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
There is a barrier that isolates me, that endows me with individuality while shutting me off from communion with the larger totality that I can see and ponder but not partake of.

All this leads me to believe that Ki is a complex integrative process that I can partially understand in terms physical theory. But to unite with Ki I am required to experience it on a level that transcends intellectual understanding.
I think that is so. But we are conscious, rational creatures, and there are unconscious and unthinking ways of falling into error that are as bad as those of erroneous conscious choice. We must act correctly in both senses.

What O Sensei's teaching shows through a practical application is that this separation and negation is not necessary, and there is another more creative way, epitomized in the context of a direct physical conflict. Juuji (十字) in combination with the cycling of Ki teaches, to me, the nature of harmonics and resonance. Negative opposed to positive diminishes both, moreover, in a dull, linear and predictable way. It is destructive to the same extent that it is imitative.

Juuji, in terms of harmonics, means that at maximum positive the matching signal is at zero, and the same at maximum negative. NO resistance. Conversely, when you wish to maximize your own action, positive or negative, you choose to do it at the point that the matching signal is at zero phase. Neither signal diminishes the other at all -- each is fully and completely expressed, and maintains its independence and individuality without diminishment. Both have perfect freedom to act fully.

Moreover the combination is NOT linear, which is to say, joining them changes the resulting combination in way that are initially predictable, IF one is aware of what is happening (another reason why both unconscious, intuitive integration and conscious awareness are BOTH critical to human flourishing). But when repeated only a few times, the dynamic evolves in organic, lively and unpredictable ways, which while being entirely novel and creative forms they are intuitively recognizable and familiar.

Perfect freedom for yourself that also submits to the complete freedom of the other, and which results in the generation of novel dynamics. Secret of the universe ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:19 AM   #12
C. David Henderson
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What O Sensei's teaching shows through a practical application is that this separation and negation is not necessary, and there is another more creative way, epitomized in the context of a direct physical conflict.
This is, for me, a keystone to your response. I say that because, when I look at the question this way there are some questions that tend to come up (just questions, really, not criticisms).

An epitome may be an ideal or typical example, or "embodiment" of something larger.

Here, Ron talks about the larger picture in terms that an existentialist would recognize as pointing to the concept of alienation, or a Buddhist, living in samsara.

Suppose we agreed that Aikido is a way of "reconnecting" physically, and that it "epitomizes" reconnection in a larger sense. Does my practice then provide simply an object lesson on the larger issue? Or should it be viewed as a modality or reconnecting rather than an epitome of it?

If it simply "epitomizes," should I view the potential benefit to me as a kind of cognitive therapy?

Even in a more narrow context of Aikido as a martial art, how does the "ki of my thoughts (intent)" in the context of practice represent oscillation as a principle?

Interesting how the mind/body duality manifests itself in this discussion.

Regards,

David
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:35 AM   #13
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
..... Ki is a theory of operation. ....
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The effort is simply to show that the model of Ki as oscillation..
I agree that Ki is an operation ( verb)- channeling the Universal Energy thru thru the body out to an action, but I disagree that it's an oscillation ( verb)-
1 a: to swing backward and forward like a pendulum
b: to move or travel back and forth between two points
2: to vary between opposing beliefs, feelings, or theories
3: to vary above and below a mean value

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:26 PM   #14
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And yes the nervous system is in play, but sound (oscillation) moves through the body far faster than nerve impulses to the brain ...
Alll energy has waves and all waves oscillate. Nerve impulses are electricity. Waves are said to be an "energy transport phenomenon" and can transfer energy without transfering matter.

Btw, clever idea to reference a blog to a thread, as both elicit responses, but it uses up exponentually more bandwidth.

Last edited by GeneC : 01-03-2009 at 01:33 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:18 PM   #15
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I agree that Ki is an operation ( verb)- channeling the Universal Energy thru thru the body out to an action, but I disagree that it's an oscillation ( verb)-
1 a: to swing backward and forward like a pendulum
b: to move or travel back and forth between two points
2: to vary between opposing beliefs, feelings, or theories
3: to vary above and below a mean value
You may disagree all you wish, however:

Quote:
That's not an argument. It's just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It isn't just saying, "No, it isn't."
So what what is "universal energy" -- if not angular momentum or its potential moment?

What is "an action"" -- if not motion about a point of observation ( a center)?

How do you deal with mass and what comprises it?

This is a physical theory, remember, so metaphor and analogy are off the table.

If you propose it -- you should define it -- if you intend to rebut the argument at hand.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:31 PM   #16
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

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Alll energy has waves and all waves oscillate. Nerve impulses are electricity. Waves are said to be an "energy transport phenomenon" and can transfer energy without transferring matter.
Nerves are electrochemical, not merely electrical, hence slow, two orders of magnitude slower relative to the speed of sound in flesh (ca. 60 fps for nervous impulse vice ~1500 fps for pure vibration.) What is being transferred in waves is not purely energy -- it is momentum, because a wave through a medium of matter moves a mass in local oscillation, mass attaining a local velocity, and hence momentum, and transferring that momentum to the next connected mass in the direction of the wavefront. Sound moves mass in compressive oscillations. Waves of electromagnetic energy are simply oscillation tout court -- wave/particles which have angular momentum -- but no mass.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #17
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
This is, for me, a keystone to your response. I say that because, when I look at the question this way there are some questions that tend to come up (just questions, really, not criticisms).

An epitome may be an ideal or typical example, or "embodiment" of something larger.
Literally, an epitome is a "slice of" something, a more simply demonstrable portion of the rest of a less accessible whole, the tip off of the proverbial iceberg. The ideal or superlative of something is the "acme" -- but Wile E. ruined that one -- for many generations to come.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Suppose we agreed that Aikido is a way of "reconnecting" physically, and that it "epitomizes" reconnection in a larger sense. Does my practice then provide simply an object lesson on the larger issue? Or should it be viewed as a modality or reconnecting rather than an epitome of it?
I don't see a meaningful distinction. Yes, to both.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Even in a more narrow context of Aikido as a martial art, how does the "ki of my thoughts (intent)" in the context of practice represent oscillation as a principle?
Inclination, in the attitudinal sense, matches precisely with the physical aspect of moment, the potential for rotation about a point. Poised, ready, but not tensed or pressed or anxious in the slightest. When the structural restraint preventing motion is lifted, you simply move freely about the center already defined for you. Attention to center focusses the intent and defines the potential and the action. Then one seeks to shift the center, and thus the further potential, by that intent, and thus control the resulting action.
Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Interesting how the mind/body duality manifests itself in this discussion.
At classical scales Berkeley's demonstration that Newton's absolute sapce and velocity were no supportable was demonstrated by virtue of the relative nature of angular momentum. The lack of any absolute position or velocity means the point of observation is definitional, and thus the "observer" and mind/body "problems" come automatically to the fore. I see them less as problems and more as foundations.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:06 PM   #18
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

On the issue of signals, the body, and the nervous system, this article, from the AT site, seems on-topic.

Connective tissue: A body-wide signaling
network?
Helene M. Langevin

Summary Unspecialized ‘‘loose'' connective tissue forms an anatomical network throughout the body. This paper
presents the hypothesis that, in addition, connective tissue functions as a body-wide mechanosensitive signaling
network. Three categories of signals are discussed: electrical, cellular and tissue remodeling, each potentially
responsive to mechanical forces over different time scales. It is proposed that these types of signals generate dynamic,
evolving patterns that interact with one another. Such connective tissue signaling would be affected by changes in
movement and posture, and may be altered in pathological conditions (e.g. local decreased mobility due to injury or
pain). Connective tissue thus may function as a previously unrecognized whole body communication system. Since
connective tissue is intimately associated with all other tissues (e.g. lung, intestine), connective tissue signaling may
coherently influence (and be influenced by) the normal or pathological function of a wide variety of organ systems.
Demonstrating the existence of a connective signaling network therefore may profoundly influence our understanding
of health and disease.
c 2006 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

Dr. Langevin eleborates:

unspecialized connective tissue not only forms a
continuous network surrounding and infiltrating
all muscles, but also permeates all other tissues
and organs. Within individual organs, the extracellular
interstitium and connective tissue matrix play
a well-recognized role in integrating the function
of diverse cell types existing within each tissue
(e.g. lung, intestine) [3]. Moreover, the connective
tissue matrix is a key participant in mechanotransduction,
or mechanisms allowing cells to perceive
and interpret mechanical forces [4]. Rapid progress
has been made in the past twenty years in the
understanding of mechanotransduction at the
molecular, cellular and individual tissue level
[5,6]. The continuous interplay between cells, matrix
and mechanical forces is also known to control
long term sculpting of the connective tissue matrix.
Indeed connective tissue proteins have been
hypothesized to convey information stability and
tissue ‘‘memory'' [7]. No known mechanism, however,
explains how mechanical forces might be
interpreted and integrated at the level of the
whole body. Since connective tissue plays an intimate
role in the function of all other tissues, a
complex connective tissue network system integrating
whole body mechanical forces may coherently
influence the function of all other
physiological systems. Demonstrating the existence
of such a ‘‘metasystem'' would therefore change
our core understanding of physiology.

FWIW
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:16 PM   #19
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I don't see a meaningful distinction. Yes, to both.
To me, ki as describing oscillation doesn't connect readily to the transformative aspirations of aikido, such as eloquently set forth by George Ledyard Sensei today in the combat-effectiveness thread.

On it's own, understanding "ki" in terms of oscillation makes sense (for me) of some physiological considerations that explain why aikido strategies work in the physical world.

But that appears at first glance difficult to use as a tool for understanding how Aikido can serve to help people connect or integrate, to borrow a phrase.

If "ki" is seen just in terms of the physical logic of practice, then it seems ill suited to serve as a guide to understanding these larger issues.

Maybe Ledyard Sensei remark about the two poles between fighting and avoiding conflict, which he sees as needing to be balanced in order to "connect" provides a way of talking about "ki" in Erick's sense too -- as a dialectic.

Aren't I the Young Hegelian?

DH
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:23 PM   #20
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
To me, ki as describing oscillation doesn't connect readily to the transformative aspirations of aikido, such as eloquently set forth by George Ledyard Sensei today in the combat-effectiveness thread.

On it's own, understanding "ki" in terms of oscillation makes sense (for me) of some physiological considerations that explain why aikido strategies work in the physical world.

But that appears at first glance difficult to use as a tool for understanding how Aikido can serve to help people connect or integrate, to borrow a phrase.
Well, in part, you are correct. The physical aspect of Ki alone is a matter held in common with aikido, taiji, various jujutsu arts and any number of other martial arts, koryu and otherwise. Ki is oscillation, and everything is oscillating. Ki is one thing -- but this thread is about the physical theory of Ai-ki, which is specifically about that sense and action connection of ki-musubi that George Ledyard is speaking about and which is used to resolve conflict. We just have to get the physical nature of Ki established before we can talk in these terms consistently about the Ai-ki.

Aiki is about becoming sensitive to and able to act through certain aspects of initially opposing ki as it relates in conflict. One could match phases of Ki (constructive interference, doubling energy), or oppose phases of Ki (destructive interference, destroying energy), but neither of those would be Aiki.

The ki of persons differing in objectives relating to one another in right angle relationships (juuji) does not conflict. It is in -- the correct physical term -- harmonic relationship. It creates resonance. The one who is working to find the resonance point does not conflict with the other, and yet changes the whole situation. That is Aiki.

It creates chaos, from the standpoint of anyone trying to predict the outcome, but a deeply creative chaos from which are born (ubuya) any number of "techniques" which are simply expressions of following these principles consistently (Takemusu aiki). Training should put the body in the way of following it without the need of conscious decision on your part. The latter is crucial, because the action changes too contingently for conscious decisions to have anything but a detrimental impact. It just happens. Keeping the contending mind out of the way and keeping the body from straying back into conflict mode is the hard part.

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
If "ki" is seen just in terms of the physical logic of practice, then it seems ill suited to serve as a guide to understanding these larger issues.
If you simply look at ki and ways of manipulating it, sure. Cancelling a positive phase oscillation with a negative phase is certainly effective, but it explicitly conflicts with the opponent and is not Aiki, (even though it is it more subtle than a bone-on- bone cross-block collision). What is done and felt physically must match what is sought to be done, spiritually , anything less, fails on both scores.

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
Maybe Ledyard Sensei remark about the two poles between fighting and avoiding conflict, which he sees as needing to be balanced in order to "connect" provides a way of talking about "ki" in Erick's sense too -- as a dialectic.
Makes sense to me. When conflict clearly appears in the offing, there should be, all at once, a smile -- and a sigh.

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
Aren't I the Young Hegelian?
Hegel? Bleaghh!

Phenomenology. Whitehead is Da Man!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:00 PM   #21
C. David Henderson
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Re: Physical Theory of Aiki?

Might I suggest, as a programatic assumption, that if we are fortunate we may both be partially correct.

Whether what we say here is useful is another question.

As for Hegel, yes he is virtually incomprehensible. But I question whether the phenomenologists were more than a waystation between him and Satre.
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