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Old 01-02-2009, 08:21 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

William Hazen wrote:

Quote:
The whole point would be just to survive. Modern Combat is so horrible that our Armed Forces try as hard as possible to use technology to "stand off" conflicts between our soldiers and enemy combatants.

How Aikido would factor in such a scenario is beyond me.
Yea, but we have "discovered" in the last several years that technology doesn't always work. It wins the battle but not the war.

I put "discovered" in quotes. Come on...Rangers know this best!

Major Robert Rogers
Francis Marion
J.S. Mosby
William O Darby

The four SOF Truths (Special Operations Forces)

1. Humans are more important that hardware
2. Quality is better than quantity
3. Competent special operations forces cannot be created after a crisis occurs.
4. Special operations forces cannot be mass produced.

There are varying opinions in the military about what it takes to truely win a war. It takes the right skill sets to win the hearts and mind and to reconcile bad situations. Hopefully before they even start.

This is true victory.

I'd say the same applies to Budo and Aikido, which is why I study it. I have hope that we can produce human beings with the above qualities even outside a military situation, that we will become a better world.

Alas, many of you are correct....I think what we are actually doing in Budo escapes many, or they don't reallly care. Budo is hard work, mentally and physically if you are really practicing budo!

 
Old 01-02-2009, 08:44 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Marlon Hester wrote: View Post
...3. The real reason I was taking this art to begin with was based off of some stupid high school fantasy that romantically had me kicking the butts of all those school bullies I had dealt with.
This is a recurrent theme and, really, I don't get it. Why you (pl.) didn't kicked bullies butts back then. Aikido or any other ma is not a time machine and won't bring you back in time for doing what had to be done.

 
Old 01-02-2009, 09:25 AM   #28
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Come on...Rangers know this best!

Do they Kevin?

I always thought the most elite were the Special Air Service.....

"Who dares wins"

But then again......

Tony
 
Old 01-02-2009, 09:44 AM   #29
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
William Hazen wrote:

Yea, but we have "discovered" in the last several years that technology doesn't always work. It wins the battle but not the war.
Not always in a insergency anyway But even here things like MAPP vehicle technology Anti IED and RPG technologies are vital to Soldier survival.

Quote:
I put "discovered" in quotes. Come on...Rangers know this best!

Major Robert Rogers
Francis Marion
J.S. Mosby
William O Darby
Lets not forget my ancestor Ranger Moses Hazen LOL

Quote:
The four SOF Truths (Special Operations Forces)

1. Humans are more important that hardware
2. Quality is better than quantity
3. Competent special operations forces cannot be created after a crisis occurs.
4. Special operations forces cannot be mass produced.
Amen... but I don't think Aikido is being taught anywhere within SOCOM. Why? Because there are (as you have pointed out time and again) more effective Close Combat Skill Sets. Google James Williams and you see some of the Koryu type "stuff" he's teaching SOF. He's been helping out Snake eaters for quite a few years now.

Quote:
There are varying opinions in the military about what it takes to truely win a war. It takes the right skill sets to win the hearts and mind and to reconcile bad situations. Hopefully before they even start.

This is true victory.

I'd say the same applies to Budo and Aikido, which is why I study it. I have hope that we can produce human beings with the above qualities even outside a military situation, that we will become a better world.

Alas, many of you are correct....I think what we are actually doing in Budo escapes many, or they don't reallly care. Budo is hard work, mentally and physically if you are really practicing budo!
Amen.No quibble with anything here Sir.

Rangers Lead the Way!

William Hazen
 
Old 01-02-2009, 09:47 AM   #30
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Demetrio,

Because this is a common theme that comes up in, at least American culture. Many movies, books and television shows here have a long history of selling the notion that dealing with school bully problems meant enlisting the training of Martial arts.

Take a look at the Movie the Karate kid. There is a sociological reason that this movie was such a big hit during the eighties. So many people could identify with it, or wanted to identify with it.

The time during a young boy's development leaves lasting psychological roots. It's like the nerd in high school who can't seem to move past the teasing he endured even years after. I think Martial Arts is a way to deal with the fear that they felt. It's an internal announcement to one's self that they never want to feel that helpless again.
 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:15 AM   #31
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Is Aikido a "vehicle to enlightenment"? I am a proponent of Aikido. There are lots of things about it that I think are awesome. I think its philosophy has the possibility to help enlighten.

But most Aikidoka are arrogant and egotistical. Most Aikidoka are passive aggressive, angry people. Sure everyone talks about love and harmony, but as soon as things become challenging or different we often become a hateful lot.
OK. I really have never understood thiscomplaint, but it keeps being made. It is a MARTIAL art for pity's sake. Aggression is hardly objectionable as such. It is the STYLE of the aggression that you dislike.

Do we really mean that passive-aggressive is worse than the bloody-handed brutal-minded kind? Is it really preferable (strategically, ethically, economically etc.) to handle all situations requiring some aggression with nothing less than a headlong, full-throated, frontal assault?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:33 AM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Marlon,

I can understand people starting martial arts training to avoid present or future bullying but... for things that happened time ago?. Doesn't work. Healing past psychological injuries is not the purpose of martial arts training, imo, you have therapists for that.

In my experience, people who starts martial arts training without coming clean are looking for more trouble. Not for feeling helpless again but to not facing what made them helpless back then.

Now that you mention the horrible Karate Kid movie, Daniel-chan kicked really hard the bad guy, in a light-contact karate tournament nonetheless, isn't it?

 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:38 AM   #33
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
OK. I really have never understood thiscomplaint, but it keeps being made. It is a MARTIAL art for pity's sake. Aggression is hardly objectionable as such. It is the STYLE of the aggression that you dislike.

Do we really mean that passive-aggressive is worse than the bloody-handed brutal-minded kind? Is it really preferable (strategically, ethically, economically etc.) to handle all situations requiring some aggression with nothing less than a headlong, full-throated, frontal assault?
Not worse, but not better. However when passive-aggresiveness is not a conscious strategy but a guts lacking coping attitute, you tell me...

 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:55 AM   #34
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
OK. I really have never understood thiscomplaint, but it keeps being made. It is a MARTIAL art for pity's sake. Aggression is hardly objectionable as such. It is the STYLE of the aggression that you dislike.

Do we really mean that passive-aggressive is worse than the bloody-handed brutal-minded kind? Is it really preferable (strategically, ethically, economically etc.) to handle all situations requiring some aggression with nothing less than a headlong, full-throated, frontal assault?
You're speaking as if passive-aggressiveness is some milder form of aggression, and that's not really the case. Passive-aggressiveness tends to express itself in situations that, IMO, do not "require some aggression". It expresses itself as a tool for one-upmanship, bullying and harassment.

Chris's point is this: there are a lot of aikido people who have bought the line that aikido is inherently a peaceful practice, and have extrapolated that to mean that they, therefore, are inherently peaceful people...and thus it follows that nothing they do can be construed as attacking others. It's a bit like people who follow the written dictates of a religion while still managing to hate others and behave like bastards. Any organization, belief system, or what have you that encourages the belief that as a practitioner, you're on a Better Way, is subject to this pitfall.
 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:56 AM   #35
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
In my experience, people who starts martial arts training without coming clean are looking for more trouble.
What you said.
 
Old 01-02-2009, 11:03 AM   #36
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're speaking as if passive-aggressiveness is some milder form of aggression, and that's not really the case. Passive-aggressiveness tends to express itself in situations that, IMO, do not "require some aggression". It expresses itself as a tool for one-upmanship, bullying and harassment.
Lord knows we've seen this on the mat all too often. As in the case of the know-it-all uke. "Your technique won't work on me," etc etc.
 
Old 01-02-2009, 11:11 AM   #37
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're speaking as if passive-aggressiveness is some milder form of aggression, and that's not really the case. Passive-aggressiveness tends to express itself in situations that, IMO, do not "require some aggression". It expresses itself as a tool for one-upmanship, bullying and harassment.

Chris's point is this: there are a lot of aikido people who have bought the line that aikido is inherently a peaceful practice, and have extrapolated that to mean that they, therefore, are inherently peaceful people...and thus it follows that nothing they do can be construed as attacking others. It's a bit like people who follow the written dictates of a religion while still managing to hate others and behave like bastards. Any organization, belief system, or what have you that encourages the belief that as a practitioner, you're on a Better Way, is subject to this pitfall.
Concur....I see it all the time in Aikido...I can tell you though that this fallacy is inherent in many belief systems and it can affect folks in one of two ways in my experiance in Aikido/Martial Arts One... It's part of a learning curve that everyone goes through when practice aka "Black Belt Disease. Eventually with hard practice and experiance they grow out of it....Two it's like hanging a sign around your neck announcing you're a Martial Arts Dilitantte. The phrase gets thrown around allot as kind of a blanket excuse to make the accuser look like they are coming from a place of higher learning/experiance and is a sub-fallacy of Argumentum Ad Athoritum.

In my counseling experiance Acute Passive Agressive Behaviour can be a sign that you're dealing with a sociopath or more often than not someone who has an underlying issue that needs to be addressed and delt with/recover from.

Sorry to get off topic but I love your insight Mary.

William Hazen
 
Old 01-02-2009, 02:25 PM   #38
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

i've been in a situation where my girlfriend and brother were being attacked by a group of youths, We were accused of chasing them, when actually we were just out for a walk on a saturday afternoon at 4pm. my brother and girlfriend both of who i love were there, I took it upon myself to get the out. In that situation i was willing to do anything to get them out. I totally agree with what the author of this post is saying... i often think i'm in control, but when push comes to shove your gonna bet yout your ass i'm gonna do my best to harm them!!
 
Old 01-02-2009, 02:40 PM   #39
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

http://www.aikidofaq.com/stories/real_life2.html

There are some interesting things in the old thread, but you can scan for "Joe McParland" on that page and find mine. It's a story of a fight from before I knew aikido told from my view after military service and after becoming an aikido nut

 
Old 01-02-2009, 03:07 PM   #40
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Rangers Lead the Way!William Hazen
????Excuse me? No offense, but Marines have that distinction. May I remind you (just as an example) of "Black Hawk Down" 'incident'... The Marines were sent in first and kicked butt and secured the place, handed it over to the Army( Ranger and Delta) and THEN the fiasco. There's many examples of such occasions (where in fact, the Marines lead the way).
Ohhhrahh!
Semper Fi, GeneC

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 01-02-2009, 03:18 PM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Not always in a insergency anyway But even here things like MAPP vehicle technology Anti IED and RPG technologies are vital to Soldier survival.

Lets not forget my ancestor Ranger Moses Hazen LOL

Amen... but I don't think Aikido is being taught anywhere within SOCOM. Why? Because there are (as you have pointed out time and again) more effective Close Combat Skill Sets. Google James Williams and you see some of the Koryu type "stuff" he's teaching SOF. He's been helping out Snake eaters for quite a few years now.

Amen.No quibble with anything here Sir.

Rangers Lead the Way!

William Hazen
I knew you agreed! I couldn't tell you if aikido is being taught or not. We ARE teaching Modern Army Combatives. SOF guys do alot of whatever they want as you know.

IMO, direct combat skills is what is necessary. The whole "Soft" skill set comes in a very complex way. Aikido would be a little to removed and a little too philosophically direct and would not reallly impart much to them on a day to day basis. Plus they get this kind of training in other ways.

Of course there is always the wonderful example of What Dr Heckler-Strozzi did and I always think that is a good thing!

Technology is a wonderful thing, it can certainly leverage things and provide the necessary distance for you to affect them, but they cannot affect you. In the end though, we have to look at people face to face and deal with them as human beings!

I always think there is room for improvement in this department...always. RTLW.

Oh btw, Tony, SAS is pretty good too! Seriously, they have pretty much taught the rest of us how to do business.

 
Old 01-02-2009, 04:28 PM   #42
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
????Excuse me? No offense, but Marines have that distinction. May I remind you (just as an example) of "Black Hawk Down" 'incident'... The Marines were sent in first and kicked butt and secured the place, handed it over to the Army( Ranger and Delta) and THEN the fiasco. There's many examples of such occasions (where in fact, the Marines lead the way).
Ohhhrahh!
Semper Fi, GeneC
I knew a few Marines who reenlisted in the Army to go Ranger....

Some of them made it. LOL

William Hazen
 
Old 01-02-2009, 04:52 PM   #43
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I knew a few Marines who reenlisted in the Army to go Ranger....

Some of them made it. LOL

William Hazen
Well, that doesn't change history....but anyway.....hmmm...effectiveness of Aikido in combat. Wonder how many soldiers here actually used Aikido in combat and what could be gleaned from it...this might be a moot topic.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 01-02-2009, 05:53 PM   #44
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

I'm not a military expert, so please excuse my ignorance.

As a Budoka and a 'survivor' I found the following documentary extremely relevant to the subject of Bushido. Please go to the second paragraph if you only have time for a quick browse.

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2008/soldi...nce/about.html


If anyone else has seen it I'd be interested in your perspective.
Thanks,
js

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 01-02-2009 at 06:05 PM.

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Old 01-02-2009, 06:29 PM   #45
mickeygelum
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Operation Restore Hope, under which the United States would assume the unified command of the new operation, in accordance with Resolution 794 (1992). The U.S. Marine Corps landed with the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit in Mogadishu and, with elements of 1st Battalion, 7th Marines and 3rd Battalion, 11th Marines, secured nearly one-third of the city,the port, and airport facilities, to facilitate airlifted humanitarian supplies in two weeks time. Elements of the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines and 1st Battalion, 7th Marines quickly secured routes to Baidoa, Balidogle and Kismayo, then were reinforced by the 3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion and the US Army's 10th Mountain Division.
Yes Sir, let's get our history lesson correct.

Quote:
Operation Gothic Serpent that was fought on October 3 and 4, 1993, in Mogadishu, Somalia, by forces of the United States supported by UNOSOM II against Somali militia fighters loyal to warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. The battle is also referred to as the First Battle of Mogadishu to distinguish it from the later Second Battle of Mogadishu. Akram, which consisted of an assault force made up of US Army Delta Force, Ranger teams, an air element provided by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, four Navy SEAL operators from SEAL Team 6, and members of the Air Force Pararescue/Air Force Combat Controllers, executed an operation which involved traveling from their compound on the outskirts of the city to capture tier one personalities of the Habr Gidr clan, headed by Aidid. The assault force consisted of nineteen aircraft, twelve vehicles and 160 men. During the operation, two U.S. UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters were shot down by rocket-propelled grenades, and three others were damaged. Some of the soldiers were able to evacuate wounded back to the compound, but others were trapped at the crash sites and cut off
Quote:
Operation Gothic Serpent

On October 3, 1993, Task Force Ranger, U.S. Special Operations Forces composed mainly of Bravo Company 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1st SFOD-D; better known as "Delta Force") operators, and aviation support from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne) ("The Night Stalkers"), attempted to capture Aidid's foreign minister, Omar Salad Elmi, and his top political advisor, Mohamed Hassan Awale.[16]

The plan was to fast rope from hovering MH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, capture the targets, and load them onto a ground convoy for transport back to the U.S. compound. Four Ranger chalks commanded by Captain Michael Steele, also inserted by helicopter, were to provide a secure square perimeter on the four corners of the operation's target building.

The ground extraction convoy was supposed to reach the captive targets a few minutes after the beginning of the operation. However, it ran into delays. Somali citizens and local militia formed barricades along the streets of Mogadishu with rocks and burning tires, blocking the convoy from reaching the Rangers and their captives. A five-ton truck, part of the convoy, was struck by an RPG-7 rocket, inflicting fatal wounds to MSG Tim "Griz" Martin.

Other complications arose. A Ranger was seriously injured during the insertion. PFC Todd Blackburn fell while fast roping from a helicopter hovering 70 feet (21 m) above the streets. Minutes later, a MH-60 Black Hawk helicopter, Super 61 piloted by CW3 Cliff Wolcott, was shot down by a rocket propelled grenade.

A Combat Search and Rescue team, led by TSgt Scott Fales of the Air Force Pararescuemen, were able to rope down to Super 61's crash site despite an RPG hit that crippled their helicopter. They found the pilots dead and five injured inside the Black Hawk. Under intense fire, the team removed the injured to a nearby collection point, where they built a make-shift shelter for the wounded using Kevlar floorboards from the Black Hawk.

There was confusion between the ground convoy and the assault team. The assault team and the ground convoy waited for twenty minutes just out of sight of each other, ready to move, but each under the impression that they were to be first contacted by the other. During the wait, a second Black Hawk helicopter, Super 64 piloted by CW3 Michael Durant, was downed.

Most of the assault team went to the first crash site for a rescue operation. Upon reaching the site, about 90 Rangers found themselves under siege from heavy militia fire. Despite air support, the Rangers were effectively trapped for the night. With a growing number of wounded needing shelter, the Rangers occupied several nearby houses taking the residents prisoner. Outside, a stiff breeze stirred up blinding brown clouds of dust.

The local SNA commander, Colonel Sharif Hassan Giumale, decided to call for a mortar bombardment of the houses occupied by the Rangers. Giumale requested a "half dozen" 60 mm mortars crews. The information that civilians were being held captive changed his plans.[17]

At the second crash site, two Delta snipers, SFC Randy Shughart and MSG Gary Gordon, were inserted by helicopter (at their own request, permission was denied twice by Command but granted when they persisted and made a third request) to protect the injured crew from the approaching mob. Both snipers were later killed when the site was overrun by Somali militiamen. The Black Hawk's pilot, CW3 Michael Durant, who was seriously injured in the crash, was taken hostage. For their actions, Shughart and Gordon were posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

Repeated attempts by the Somalis to mass forces and overrun the American positions in a series of firefights near the crash sites were neutralized by aggressive small arms fire and by strafing and rocket attacks from AH-6J Little Bird helicopter gunships of the Nightstalkers, the only air support equipped to operate at night. The Somali National Alliance militia casualties were reported as 700 killed and about 1000 wounded. However, an eyewitness to the battle says the recovery parties for the SNA dead in the vicinity of the Olympic Hotel would indicate about 60.[18]

A relief convoy of men from Task Force 2-14 Infantry, 10th Mountain Division, aided by Malaysian and Pakistani UN forces, arrived in the early morning. No contingency planning or coordination with UN forces had been arranged prior to the operation; consequently, the recovery of the surrounded U.S. soldiers was significantly complicated and delayed. Determined to protect all members of the rescue convoy, Gen. Garrison made sure to roll out in force. When the convoy finally pushed into the city, it consisted of more than 100 vehicles including Malaysian forces' German made Condor APCs, four Pakistani tanks, American Humvees and several five-ton flatbed trucks. This two mile long column was supported by several other Black Hawks and Cobra assault helicopters stationed with the 10th Mountain Division. The "Little Birds" of Task Force Ranger (TFR) continued their defense of the downed crew and rescuers of Super 61 throughout the night, the Night Stalkers being some of the only pilots trained and practiced in nighttime flying.

The battle was over by October 4, 1993, at 6:30 AM. American forces were finally evacuated to the UN Pakistani base by the armored convoy and the "Mogadishu Mile." In all, 18 U.S. soldiers died of wounds from the battle and another 83 were injured[2]. After the battle, the bodies of several US casualties of the conflict, members of the Black Hawk "Super 64" crew and their protectors, Delta Operators MSG Shughart and SFC Gordon, were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu by crowds of local civilians and SNA forces.[19] The Malaysian forces lost one soldier and had seven injured, while the Pakistanis suffered two injured. Casualties on the Somali side were heavy, with estimates on fatalities ranging from 315 [3]to over 2,000 people. The Somali casualties were a mixture of militiamen and local civilians. Somali civilians suffered heavy casualties due to the dense urban character of that portion of Mogadishu. Two days later, a mortar round fell on the U.S. compound, killing one U.S. soldier, SFC Matt Rierson, and injuring another twelve.
Charlie-Mike

Mickey
 
Old 01-02-2009, 06:31 PM   #46
lbb
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Would it be inappropriate to suggest that the debates over what branch of service did what when be hashed over in another thread?
 
Old 01-02-2009, 07:39 PM   #47
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I'm not a military expert, so please excuse my ignorance.

As a Budoka and a 'survivor' I found the following documentary extremely relevant to the subject of Bushido. Please go to the second paragraph if you only have time for a quick browse.

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2008/soldi...nce/about.html

If anyone else has seen it I'd be interested in your perspective.
Thanks,
js
Thanks for the link. It looks very interesting and very well done. Looks like it might actually be a good piece about the issue vice a polictical agenda.

Thanks again!

 
Old 01-02-2009, 07:41 PM   #48
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Would it be inappropriate to suggest that the debates over what branch of service did what when be hashed over in another thread?
Yes, it is a stupid and immature argument to have. I work on a joint staff with professionals from all branches of the service, to include Delta, Marines, Rangers, SF, Seals and we never have these discussions, we each do our jobs and drive on.

 
Old 01-02-2009, 09:34 PM   #49
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

An argument is when two folks try to impose their opinion on each other. I don't believe that's happening here. So exactly how effective is Aikido in combat? Anybody here use Aikido in combat with enough regularity to make a definitive conclusion?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 01-02-2009, 10:34 PM   #50
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Re: Effectiveness of Aikido in a combat situation

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Would it be inappropriate to suggest that the debates over what branch of service did what when be hashed over in another thread?
Who is "hashing" exactly?

Please Mary for my part it was nothing but a friendly ribbing that has been going on between the Services since the Services were founded nothing more...

William Hazen
 

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