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Old 12-28-2008, 10:30 PM   #76
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
While Aikido is philosophically rich, competition and practicing at full resistance is generally discouraged by most modern Aikidoka. This is a reflection of the founders religious orientation. Working with non-resistant opponents can lead to a false sense of security. This leads to disappointment when skills are needed most.
The last two statements are undoubtedly true. But, I have serious reservations that the religiosity of the Founder per se completely explains or justifies the proscription on competition, although they are certainly related.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Should we as Aikidoka change our training methods, redefining Aikido practice as a whole? Sparring clearly illustrates that the first attempt at a technique does not always work. Ueshiba's vision may be well served, even enhanced by incorporating training methods of full resistance. Should we as Aikidoka learn to adopt sparring in it's true nature of learning of what works? It's time for change, and perhaps the time has arrived.
It is a mistake. I say this not as one who has any authority but of my own observation. There is no attempting any technique in aikido "when the skills are needed most." There most defeinitely is never any "second" attempt. There is no attempt, at all.

Techniques happen in takemusu aiki -- something I perceived occurring in my training quite some time ago, but a process whose nature I have begun to grasp in increasing glimmers. If you have a technique or any endpoint, intermediate or ultimate, in mind before acting you have left the path of Aiki. When I began to do what came to hand naturally and was not thinking about it -- I began to see aiki occurring of its own -- without conscious planning on my part. That is not the same as saying "just do what comes naturally" -- it requires much time and proper effort to attune the body and to quell the operative mind, I now see quite clearly.

Godspeed to you, but competition is not the path the Founder laid, and I see good reason for not straying from it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:18 PM   #77
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Erick, competition may not be the answer, but I think that practicing it with the right amount of aliveness is the right answer if you are concerned about the things Salim is addressing.

Here is a personal experience.

About 20 years ago, I was a brand new medic in the Air Force. 19 years old, had spent months going through all my medical training, ACLS certified, Para EMT, and all that good stuff.

I took test, practiced, and drilled over and over. I was very confident in my knowledge and looked forward to my first real emergency.

then it happened. In Northern Maine about 20 below zero, snow up to our ass. A guy with chest pain in a trailer. The trailer had a wooden windscreen or "mud room built with the door 90 degrees from the trailer door. While first thing we ran into is that I couldn't get the stretcher through a right angle into the trailer. After 10 minutes of trying, I finally made the decision to kick it down. Should have had training on what our priorities were instead of wasting 10 minutes trying to be neat!

Second, once I got the guy to the back of the ambulance, he coded. Well what did I do? What I had trained to do. CPR. Except I did chin tilt head lift, and did mouth to mouth. Well anyone that has ever done it knows what comes up next!

Well after dealing with this, I look over and remember that I had a Bag on the ambulance!

Why didn't I reach for the bag? I had never trained for a code in the winter, 20 below, under a great deal of stress in the back of my ambulance.

My training had essentially been classroom and under good conditions, not in the actual manner that I might encounter on the street in my ambulance.

Hence, my training was not alive.

At some point, we should have drilled similiar scenarios with pressure so we would have it committed to muscle memory with "no thought".

In the Army we have also found in hand to hand fights that guys don't draw their knives. Why? because the "forgget" they have them in the heat of battle, because they have never practiced using them in a fight, so they kick and punch but not draw the knife.

So, I contend that it is good to practice technique over and over until you commit it to "no mind". However, to commit it to "no mind" it has to include near real enviornmental factors and conditions in which you might be faced with, including unpredictable, non-compliant uke in order to actually be able to use "no mind".

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Old 12-29-2008, 05:38 AM   #78
Stefan Hultberg
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Re: Full Resistance

Hi

I believe there are many reasons for training aikido, and relistic self-defense is just one of them. Beauty, promotion of love in the world, self-discovery, mental well-being, physical fitness - so many possible reasons. Therefore I think most practitioners have a realistic view of their individual and their style's strengths and weaknesses in a "real fight". A person training for promotion of love in the world may simply not care one jot or tittle about its use in self defense. Also, some techniques are openly and implicitly practiced for another use than self-defense, for example 1'st kumi-tachi, unless you expect to have to realistically defend yourself against a swordsman of course.

Myself, I try to project so much positive energy that nobody will attack me. If I get attacked anyway I hope I will sit down in seiza, close my eyes, and calmly let whatever happens happen. I fear that, despite my good intentions, I might smash them to smitherines - akido or not. If my family or "someone helpless" was seriously threatened I believe my aikido, my watching lots of karate movies, my strong teeth, and my aggressive focus alone will smite the aggressors. My point here, perhaps, is that real self defense is complicated, messy, unpredictable, and cannot be simulated. It's difficult to practice full resistance and then deal with the guy who rolls away 3 yards, then pulls a sig-sauer, and lead starts buzzing through the air. It's difficult to practice full resistance and then defend yourself against a bomb launched by an f-16. Self defense training may enable you to defend yourself against some situations, certainly not all.

While training I really value the full spectrum of resistance, from full resistance/total obstruction to the fully coordinated uke who just follows my lead like a butterfly made of midsummer's mist. Full resistance/obstruction is an important part of the spectrum.

Now, "full resistance", to me, does not appear as realistic self-defense simulation at all. Obstruction is easy if you are an aikidoka and you know what an aikidoka is going to do (prearranged or through experience in a randori situation). If one expects to be in a self-defense situation with an another aikidoka there may be some value in the "full resistance" as self-defense simulation.

I am not convinced that what some call "soft aikido", depending on exactly what you mean of course, is obviously hopeless in self-defense. The moment of surprise is difficult to judge and real atemi is difficult to simulate. Take atemi - in order to simulate it the way we practice it at our dojo,I would have to plant my fist, without a glove, full force on the precious nose of my opponent, on his adam's apple, or through his teath. I believe a soft, beautiful aikido technique could thereafter be performed with an opponent as soft as a jellyfish.

Aikido is a martial art, no question, but the word "martial" has many depths.

Well, it is said that "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know" - I obviously know sod all.

I apologize for my voluminous ramblings and wish you all a very happy new year.

Stefan Hultberg

Last edited by Stefan Hultberg : 12-29-2008 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:23 AM   #79
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
... but competition is not the path the Founder laid, and I see good reason for not straying from it.
Competition in the sense of rivalry, or making aikido a sport, or working with a "win-lose" mindset is, imo, what the founder tried to avoid. However, "aliveness" is a different thing and I don't find "aliveness" incompatible with aikido.

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Old 12-29-2008, 06:55 AM   #80
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Re: Full Resistance

Seconded.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:08 AM   #81
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Erick, competition may not be the answer, but I think that practicing it with the right amount of aliveness is the right answer if you are concerned about the things Salim is addressing.
Quote:
Demetrio wrote:
Competition in the sense of rivalry, or making aikido a sport, or working with a "win-lose" mindset is, imo, what the founder tried to avoid. However, "aliveness" is a different thing and I don't find "aliveness" incompatible with aikido.
We don't disagree, but too many assume that aliveness and competitive contest are the same thing -- and they are not -- not even in degree.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I took test, practiced, and drilled over and over. I was very confident in my knowledge ......
Why didn't I reach for the bag? I had never trained for a code in the winter, 20 below, under a great deal of stress in the back of my ambulance.

My training had essentially been classroom and under good conditions, not in the actual manner that I might encounter on the street in my ambulance.

Hence, my training was not alive.
Precisely. My route to martial arts was an early one where I, quite unexpectedly, forgot who I was, and became rather feral with someone else -- a situation that I did not care to repeat. Everyone forgets most of what they have learned, and instead responds with the way that they have been trained, which is not something one can consciously remember, and which overt signs of learning sometimes disguise. The way of the training come out under stress, not any particulars of it. This is one aspect of what "DO" means in this context. So attending to the Way of the training is critical, as I think we are in general agreement. How to do that is quite another matter.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
In the Army we have also found in hand to hand fights that guys don't draw their knives. Why? because the "forgget" they have them in the heat of battle, because they have never practiced using them in a fight, so they kick and punch but not draw the knife.
The Way of aikido is not to lose oneself in the situation by becoming bound to a particular sequence of events. It is a training in dynamic structural patterns that are universal. The focus of the mind is freed from the movements, because the movements of the body are inherently natural -- which is not to say that they are commonly used by anyone else.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So, I contend that it is good to practice technique over and over until you commit it to "no mind". However, to commit it to "no mind" it has to include near real enviornmental factors and conditions in which you might be faced with, including unpredictable, non-compliant uke in order to actually be able to use "no mind".
My practice is to aproach the familair through unfmailiar paths or conversely to take the familiar and lead it into uncertain places. I tend to focus on branch points of movement where distinctions between technique in the formal sense are blurred. That is to say, I either start with a canonical waza, and then take it into a branching series according to some scheme of variation that occurs to me that night, or I start with a simple minor kokyu movement and then expand it into various waza along different paths of development in the movement.

The point is not to hardwire any set paths or reaction sequences. It fosters both physical memory and mental trust that proper movement finds its own paths, and that many are already there to be seen, if you just carry on moving let them appear instead of either hacking away at every tree in your way, or despairing at the daunting prospect of cutting down a forest to make one. It is alive because it focusese on the unfiying nature of the branching process while allowing the distinctions that the branching creates. It is therefore in harmony with Ki as defined by Miura Baien, according the branching principle of Jouri. It creates a sense of the train already moving and always at the switch, ready to shift suddenly to some other track, only dimly seen ahead.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:14 AM   #82
Bob Blackburn
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Re: Full Resistance

I think you have to provide progressive resistance to the point of full resistance. You should give your partner enough resistance to test their current ability without making it impossible. This can take a while to get used to providing the right amount.

Working against resistance will improve technique, structure, focus, etc. Starting slowing from a static position until you can apply the technique in a dynamic environment.
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:18 AM   #83
C. David Henderson
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If you have a technique or any endpoint, intermediate or ultimate, in mind before acting you have left the path of Aiki. .
No arguments here about either aliveness or progressive resistence, particularly in the absense of formal competition.

I agree with Erick's statement, quoted above, as well, which I think applies at all levels of practice, including basic kihon practice.

Thinking about the end-state usually leads to rushing through the interaction as it unfolds. Rushing to throw (lock, or choke...) amplifies, IME, the risk that one also will (a) execute poorly; and (b) be less able to deal with unexpected levels or types of resistance.

Good discussion, thanks all.

Regards,

DH
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:38 AM   #84
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Erick wrote:

Quote:
The Way of aikido is not to lose oneself in the situation by becoming bound to a particular sequence of events. It is a training in dynamic structural patterns that are universal. The focus of the mind is freed from the movements, because the movements of the body are inherently natural -- which is not to say that they are commonly used by anyone else.
Exactly. The trick is to not let yourself become bound by a set of habits or patterns. Exactly. In listening to Boyd describe the OODA practice in a lecture last night, this is what he seemed to stress the most. I have found this to be most key to my own personal development.

I don't think it matters what style, art, or system you study, everyone is subject to this process and we must be aware that this is going on.

I also agree that there is a distinction between Competition and Aliveness. Competition can drive aliveness into your training, but again, you can myopic when this becomes the endstate of your training. You see this in Judo alot.

However, I think that compettition also can be a good thing with the right perspective. I like to compete in Judo and BJJ couple of times a year. It keeps me with an edge that I find hard to do in any other way. It does not consume me or the endstate of my practice, this is key I think to understand.

Aliveness provides a structure which allows you to practice timing and with conditions that approximate the actions and reactions of an actual opponent as best as possible. The trick is to also understand and account for the limitations of this as well. They are there as it is impossible to 100% simulate.

Erick Wrote:

Quote:
My practice is to aproach the familair through unfmailiar paths or conversely to take the familiar and lead it into uncertain places. I tend to focus on branch points of movement where distinctions between technique in the formal sense are blurred. That is to say, I either start with a canonical waza, and then take it into a branching series according to some scheme of variation that occurs to me that night, or I start with a simple minor kokyu movement and then expand it into various waza along different paths of development in the movement.
Sounds like that you and I might do things slightly differrent, but overall, it sounds like our structure or pedagogy is actually pretty close.

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Old 12-29-2008, 09:55 AM   #85
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Competition in the sense of rivalry, or making aikido a sport, or working with a "win-lose" mindset is, imo, what the founder tried to avoid. However, "aliveness" is a different thing and I don't find "aliveness" incompatible with aikido.
I think I could go along with that......
Its impossible to think of every conceivable scenario as some would be completely ridiculous..... the "what if" scenarios come to mind..... there are no absolutes and one should be prepared as much as is possible without getting paranoid...... Self defence comes well before an encounter takes place, therefore avoiding a situation, if at all possible, is the best way, but sometimes when there is no choice one has to defend themselves by anyway that they can and survive.

Tony
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:29 AM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Full Resistance

Well, imo being prepared and aware (without crossing the line and became paranoid) is better achieved via alive training than with cooperative drilling/kata only training.

For me is the best method to really discover what you can do under pressure (physical and psychological), who you really are instead of being told who you are. Like the Dog Bros. say, is about achieving higher consciousness through harder contact.

Of course, safety of practitioneers has to be taken seriously and cooperative drilling/kata training should not be abandoned.

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Old 12-29-2008, 10:38 AM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I think I could go along with that......
Its impossible to think of every conceivable scenario as some would be completely ridiculous..... the "what if" scenarios come to mind..... there are no absolutes and one should be prepared as much as is possible without getting paranoid...... Self defence comes well before an encounter takes place, therefore avoiding a situation, if at all possible, is the best way, but sometimes when there is no choice one has to defend themselves by anyway that they can and survive.

Tony
No you cannot, but within every scenario there are some common elements that will come up in just about any fight that we can train. Fighting distance, weapons, no weapons.....okay.

Lets only look at the clinch since this is primarily what we are concerned with in an empty handed or close fight situation. What are the common elements in the clinch in every fight regardless of the other factors?

Okay, someone goes down on the ground. One is up, one is down. What is common and what can we study here?

Both are down, one is one, the other is on the bottom. What is the orientation of the two people? Side, Mount, Guard, On the Back.

Multiple Opponents? Well LOL that one gets tricky doesn't it? I tend to stick with one person for most of my training as, IMO, if you cannot control one, what makes you think you can control more?

Sort of like trying to eat an elephant, how to you do that? One piece at a time!

So, no we cannot train every conceivable scenario, but we can focus on those things that will come up in just about any fight working with different positions, timing, weapons involved.

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Old 12-29-2008, 12:05 PM   #88
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
No you cannot, but within every scenario there are some common elements that will come up in just about any fight that we can train. Fighting distance, weapons, no weapons.....okay.... Multiple Opponents? Well LOL that one gets tricky doesn't it? I tend to stick with one person for most of my training as, IMO, if you cannot control one, what makes you think you can control more?
As I see Aiki progressing through training it is becoming more and more clear to me. If my partner's arm, in the important respects, is also mine to use (if I use it in the way that does not require any nervous connections, by center-driven action ) then interacting with multiple opponents is the same. As long as I maintain my status as their mutual target they become effectively one many-limbed body centered on me, same as an individual opponent. All their actions will be driven by the motion of me at their mutual center. I believe this is what O Sensei spoke of in terms of making many one. But it emphasizes the risks to training in a competiive way, even as it makes clear that the "liveness" of training is so important.

If I begin to "run away" from multiple attackers, I am not evading them -- I am just repetitively trying to depart the center of their intended actions, and so losing the focus that it brings. So evasion is problematic.

If I begin, on the other hand to wish to make any one of them MY intended target, I lose that center-driven focus in my perception where I no longer have to worry about where the enemy is, where he is going, or what he is going to do (never mind the rest of them). Thus, attacking is problematic.

But if I am content to remain the target and simply cut directly into each attack in turn, and lead the whole of them with my own motion in concert with theirs, and remaining at their intentional center (NOT in the middle of a bunch of them, I hasten to add), while choosing merely where I wish to be centered upon -- I become the available and orderly focus of their intentions -- not too far out of reach nor so close as to not require some affirmative closure. I can snatch a group of them effectively off-balance in the sense of disorganizing their mutual structure of attack in a way directly related to the way in which I take kuzushi from a wrist grab or with kiri-otoshi or suriage with the sword, all to disorganize the attacker's structure of attack, by becoming and then changing the center. That is Aiki-DO. Sometimes, on a good day, I can even do it semi-consistently.

Good randori is like that.

In multiple attacks I need merely to move cleanly where I wish to be attacked. Kind of like Bugs Bunny, with his coquettish enticement, "Yoo hoo! Over here, boys!" Of course, I move best straight thorough his attack, so it may not seem so un-attacking. Especially when one moves before he has moved to attack but has already focussed his intention. And We all know when we are being looked at target-wise -- we just hesitate in acting on it, becasue we are unsure of whether to attack or run or block or what.

Each attacker is always "out" and each is always coming in -- to the center. Every response is directly from the center of the action and thus controls everything, if I let it do so. My intention must be merely to be in control of their center of action, which is, of course -- me. Simplifies everything, tactically and strategically, and every attacker is exactly the same, and they are all the same together. I make them that way be conquering both my desire to run and my desire to destroy a source of threat. Masakatsu agatsu. Competition does not build that. It is too goal-oriented -- which is to say it is oriented away from the point of being attacked and toward the other guy dealing with attack. He becomes the center.

Quote:
Lt.Gen. L.B. "Chesty" Puller wrote:
They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can't get away from us now!

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-29-2008 at 12:16 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:47 PM   #89
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
As I see Aiki progressing through training it is becoming more and more clear to me. If my partner's arm, in the important respects, is also mine to use (if I use it in the way that does not require any nervous connections, by center-driven action ) then interacting with multiple opponents is the same. As long as I maintain my status as their mutual target they become effectively one many-limbed body centered on me, same as an individual opponent. All their actions will be driven by the motion of me at their mutual center. I believe this is what O Sensei spoke of in terms of making many one. But it emphasizes the risks to training in a competiive way, even as it makes clear that the "liveness" of training is so important.

If I begin to "run away" from multiple attackers, I am not evading them -- I am just repetitively trying to depart the center of their intended actions, and so losing the focus that it brings. So evasion is problematic.

If I begin, on the other hand to wish to make any one of them MY intended target, I lose that center-driven focus in my perception where I no longer have to worry about where the enemy is, where he is going, or what he is going to do (never mind the rest of them). Thus, attacking is problematic.

But if I am content to remain the target and simply cut directly into each attack in turn, and lead the whole of them with my own motion in concert with theirs, and remaining at their intentional center (NOT in the middle of a bunch of them, I hasten to add), while choosing merely where I wish to be centered upon -- I become the available and orderly focus of their intentions -- not too far out of reach nor so close as to not require some affirmative closure. I can snatch a group of them effectively off-balance in the sense of disorganizing their mutual structure of attack in a way directly related to the way in which I take kuzushi from a wrist grab or with kiri-otoshi or suriage with the sword, all to disorganize the attacker's structure of attack, by becoming and then changing the center. That is Aiki-DO. Sometimes, on a good day, I can even do it semi-consistently.

Good randori is like that.

In multiple attacks I need merely to move cleanly where I wish to be attacked. Kind of like Bugs Bunny, with his coquettish enticement, "Yoo hoo! Over here, boys!" Of course, I move best straight thorough his attack, so it may not seem so un-attacking. Especially when one moves before he has moved to attack but has already focussed his intention. And We all know when we are being looked at target-wise -- we just hesitate in acting on it, becasue we are unsure of whether to attack or run or block or what.

Each attacker is always "out" and each is always coming in -- to the center. Every response is directly from the center of the action and thus controls everything, if I let it do so. My intention must be merely to be in control of their center of action, which is, of course -- me. Simplifies everything, tactically and strategically, and every attacker is exactly the same, and they are all the same together. I make them that way be conquering both my desire to run and my desire to destroy a source of threat. Masakatsu agatsu. Competition does not build that. It is too goal-oriented -- which is to say it is oriented away from the point of being attacked and toward the other guy dealing with attack. He becomes the center.
Cor blimey mate..... You a lawyer or something?
or should I call you "O sensei"
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:21 PM   #90
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Erick, competition may not be the answer, but I think that practicing it with the right amount of aliveness is the right answer if you are concerned about the things Salim is addressing.

Here is a personal experience.

About 20 years ago, I was a brand new medic in the Air Force. 19 years old, had spent months going through all my medical training, ACLS certified, Para EMT, and all that good stuff.

I took test, practiced, and drilled over and over. I was very confident in my knowledge and looked forward to my first real emergency.

then it happened. In Northern Maine about 20 below zero, snow up to our ass. A guy with chest pain in a trailer. The trailer had a wooden windscreen or "mud room built with the door 90 degrees from the trailer door. While first thing we ran into is that I couldn't get the stretcher through a right angle into the trailer. After 10 minutes of trying, I finally made the decision to kick it down. Should have had training on what our priorities were instead of wasting 10 minutes trying to be neat!

Second, once I got the guy to the back of the ambulance, he coded. Well what did I do? What I had trained to do. CPR. Except I did chin tilt head lift, and did mouth to mouth. Well anyone that has ever done it knows what comes up next!

Well after dealing with this, I look over and remember that I had a Bag on the ambulance!

Why didn't I reach for the bag? I had never trained for a code in the winter, 20 below, under a great deal of stress in the back of my ambulance.

My training had essentially been classroom and under good conditions, not in the actual manner that I might encounter on the street in my ambulance.

Hence, my training was not alive.

At some point, we should have drilled similiar scenarios with pressure so we would have it committed to muscle memory with "no thought".

In the Army we have also found in hand to hand fights that guys don't draw their knives. Why? because the "forgget" they have them in the heat of battle, because they have never practiced using them in a fight, so they kick and punch but not draw the knife.

So, I contend that it is good to practice technique over and over until you commit it to "no mind". However, to commit it to "no mind" it has to include near real enviornmental factors and conditions in which you might be faced with, including unpredictable, non-compliant uke in order to actually be able to use "no mind".
Cor Blimey! Kevin thanks for that..... good analogy there I couldn't have done that better ......in fact I wouldn't be able to ha ha!!

Tony
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:07 PM   #91
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Cor blimey mate..... You a lawyer or something?
or should I call you "O sensei"
I'm simple. I learn through failure -- and I've learned often -- though maybe not that much.

So, "D'oh!... Sensei!" probably and more accurately expresses whatever title I ought to have...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:23 PM   #92
GeneC
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Re: Full Resistance

What's that thing the guy is stabbing with? Is that supposed to represent a knife? Notice he stabs the guy every time and he(stabbee) keeps stepping into the stabber.

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Old 12-29-2008, 04:40 PM   #93
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Re: Full Resistance

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I see alot of Krav Maga in there. However, aLotof this talk of resistance, etc is moot. Folks have to realize this can never be more than sport, because it will always have to be based on rules and in real fighting, the only rule is to win. Most folks don't realize how powerful simply grabbing someone's skin is. Grabbing two handfuls of skin and twisting it is so painful, it can cause somone to pass out. As is poking out eyes and biting, but how many are willing to do that?
AFA competition, I'd think it'd be two trying to capture the other's center. By then the battle is over, but then the nage can get extra points by executing a good technique.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:52 PM   #94
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Re: Resistance and realism

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
This is excellent! This is more what I'd think'd work in real situations.

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Old 12-29-2008, 05:11 PM   #95
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Re: Full Resistance

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I think this post demonstrates the general level of ignorance..... But then again, how many here have actually had to deal with serious personal violence while unarmed? It is interesting how many comment on things they may know nothing about. LC
I came out of a store one night, walking to my car when a couple of thugs appeared "out of nowhere"( meaning, I wasn't paying attention) and demanded money, I refused, The thug closest me came at me with an overhead knife attack, I raised my hands up to block and he reversed and came up from underneath and cut me from a couple of inches bellow my belly button to about 3" above.

I've been shot at twice( shoot to kill, both emptied gun, greatest sound in the world is bang, bang, bang, click, click), unarmed.

Competition in an organized sport is one thing, street fight, completely different.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-29-2008, 05:24 PM   #96
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Re: Full Resistance

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Exactly. The trick is to not let yourself become bound by a set of habits or patterns. Exactly. In listening to Boyd describe the OODA practice in a lecture last night, this is what he seemed to stress the most. I have found this to be most key to my own personal development..
I think this is so important, it bears repeating/expanding. The OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Everyone goes thru those steps in every situation that requires action. The thing is, those steps takes time and by the time your opponent has acted, he's already gone thru those steps, so you're already behind "the loop". The trick is make your opponent reset his OODA, by interrupting his action in some way, which could be as simple as moving. If you step off the line of attack ( which should be the very first rule of Aikido), your opponent has to re-adjust, which require them to go thru the OODA loop again. So if you're plan is to move and attack, now you're ahead.
.

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Old 12-29-2008, 05:41 PM   #97
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

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......Good randori is like that.....
But isn't Randori ( and all of Aikido) simply folks running at you( mostly one at a time) with the intention of you throwing them? It's preplanned and they fully cooperate ( dang near throwing themselves). Imo, Randori should be called multiple fully cooperative ukes. On the street, multiple attackers means a real real bad situation.

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Old 12-29-2008, 07:03 PM   #98
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

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But isn't Randori ( and all of Aikido) simply folks running at you( mostly one at a time) with the intention of you throwing them? It's preplanned and they fully cooperate ( dang near throwing themselves). Imo, Randori should be called multiple fully cooperative ukes. On the street, multiple attackers means a real real bad situation.
Come play some time. I assure you no one throws themselves in our dojo, unless it to gain themselves better advantage. If you doubt the sincerity of ukes' objectives -- we can do it with shinai for spice. Nor is randori about throwing anybody per se -- it is about controlling the attackers en masse, by using them against themselves. If a throw happens now and again, great -- it is not the primary objective.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:06 PM   #99
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Re: Integration and Awareness!

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
But isn't Randori ( and all of Aikido) simply folks running at you( mostly one at a time) with the intention of you throwing them? It's preplanned and they fully cooperate ( dang near throwing themselves).
No. Aikido isn't so homogeneous. Interpretations vary, but my experience (mostly witnessing) is that randori is just one more tool to refine application of waza, and as such, there is a gradient of intensity.

An example you might appreciate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUv...eature=related

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:08 PM   #100
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Full Resistance

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Interesting topic.

Personally I don't think there are many videos online that do justice to good Shodokan randori or shiai for that matter so I've resorted to just showing ppl who appear on my dojo step with questions.

These are the clips I tend to refer to, since they are the closest I have found that may relate to the Aikido concept of ending the conflict in an instant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCPE9YR5jA and - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo. These were taken during actual tanto shiai matches.

My own belief is that anyone who is stuck on getting better at shiai alone will not fully appreciate what Tomiki was trying to reveal to ppl. Just like ppl stuck only on cooperative methods of practice. The reason is because certain revelations are only gained by experiencing the personal truth of an actual conflict.

From my own personal experience, the system works very well for self defence purposes. This has been repeatedly proven to me. What is seen in most shiai clips are the result of folks who are still fixated on "getting technique to work". The system really comes into its own when your technique works before your partner has even struck (sen). This however requires focused study, even if one is in Shodokan and tests technique regularly. Testing is great but too many end up "fighting" and struggling instead of just doing Aikido. This is why there are guidelines on how to achieve ability without getting into the "fight" mindset. Imho if one is reacting in shiai or in self defence then one is not applying Aikido. The result is the struggling you often see in videos and training.

Once I did a demo which included some resistance randori as seen in tanto shiai. Half of the crowd were shocked at seeing someone who was willing to not get off every technique and not look like a "master" all the time (though some did come off like textbook co-op waza). The other half (mostly Judoka) were happy to actually see Aikido function while knowing that serious resistance was present. As folks who also engage in competitive practice they had a very good idea of how difficult it was to get a "clean" technique when ones partner was fighting back. They also know that it is possible given the right mindset and timing among other things.

Best.
LC
Thought I would underline that this has been my experience in actual real self defence....... my "Tomiki" training has "saved" my but on quite a few "occassions"......

Tony
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