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Old 08-13-2008, 06:07 PM   #51
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Amen to that! The attacker in the Shodokan knife competition clips, for instance, would be approaching the defender rather differently if he knew he could be struck in the groin or face. I've seen this effect in randori often. When the attacker knows a technique may be accompanied by a blow or two, he/she doesn't approach nage with the same confidence and recklessness that you see typically in randori where strikes by the defender are prohibited.
I think this post demonstrates the general level of ignorance that exists in this thread regarding Shodokan training practices. It is interesting how many ppl cannot differentiate between a fight, a competition, a practice fight and a training drill. But then again, how many here have actually had to deal with serious personal violence while unarmed? It is interesting how many comment on things they may know nothing about.

In Shodokan training "resistance" has a lot more to do than "not being thrown" or "muscling out of technique" in fact this is not at all encouraged. It is a process of utilizing the opponent's waza to enter into your own kaeshiwaza ("resistance" by matching your opponent's movement) or instantly negate his power so that he cannot effect kuzushi ("resistance" via structural realignment and grounding of balance) and by extension execute successful waza. Like I said, there are no online clips with explanations of this so I won't bother trying to explain it.

What one sees in shiai is such a small portion of the practice. In fact, much of what we do is very similar to how Amir described their own training methodology. Part of the problem is what people associate with the words "resistance" and "competition". We resist by matching our partner's energy and motion and then redirecting that motion when he least expects it (during kake) or we instantly negate his waza on contact, leaving him open for a counter. It never looks "pretty" on video because in shiai both members are skilled at preventing the other from succeeding. But then I guess "pretty" is the only thing of substance in many ppl's Aikido.
Quote:
"Aikido is non-resistance. As it is non-resistant, it is always victorious. Those who have a warped mind, a mind of discord, have been defeated from the beginning."- My Boss

Our task is to train until we understand why.
In a very real sense, this defines how we utilize "resistance". As soon as you "resist" in a manner that takes you out of coordination with your partner/uke/attacker you are no longer doing Aikido. This applies to us more so since the opportunities to get out of sync are increased when the other person is using his free will to be non-compliant. It challenges one to develop a higher level of ki musubi so that aiki can manifest even if the partner is planning on shutting you down and countering. At a different level one is able to manifest waza that removes the attacker's choice to resist since they literally never see the waza coming.
Quote:
The attacker attitude is not 'not being beaten', but to beat up the other guy. So, attackers tend to be very aggressively offensive, not defensive at all.
Stefan: I saw the video, it looked good. But I don't see how an Uke who stands as a strike dummy can in any way simulate "realism". Had the Uke reacted with a flinch response to your initial movement and you utilised that response to execute waza, yeah that would make sense. To add to your quote above "The attacker's attitude is not "standing like a strike dummy" either. However if one wanted to practice strikes against a static object (which is as far from a realistici human response to violence as you'll get) then I say your video shows a lot of good stuff.

Sorry for the rant guys, but I guess I am full of having ppl strike thin air or a static heavy bag or a partner who is not reacting like a person would when hit/turned/twisted or pushed and then telling me that is "realistic". We need to remember that sometimes ppl's lives may actually depend on what we teach.

My apologies, it's been a long day.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:58 PM   #52
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Aa far as I'm concerned, no apology is needed. And Sorry for your long day.

ironically, I have probably faced violence in 'real ife' situations more than anyone I know.And definitely more than most aikidoka I have met or trained. I have also been successful in using physical aikido techniques to stop assaults. I have used Ki methods to pre-emptively change a person/s direction/intention on 'the street', and I have been able to surmise violence in a situation that was likely lethal and intervene without that person knowing at al what happened. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Having said this, I am completely aware that what most people think of as 'resistance' is simply another way to assert their ego in a controlled game and that they that play that game well beyond bedtime, when they should put it to rest. And I am also aware that many people never even have a feel for the absolute effectivenes of flow (i.e.non-resistance) in keeping the peace because they are stuck in the low mind of 'struggle to learn to struggle better'. There is definitely a place for muscular non-compliance in training, in fact, it is indispensible if you've never had to use your muscles to get a job done effectively. But we live in a world saturated with this model and ample examples of how it is 'not working'. As well as opportunities to refine our responses for survival.

Training with the founders words in mind brings your mind to a higher level where new possibilities arise freely.Peace possibilities. Many make a false dichotomy out of this as a juxtoposition to 'real training' or point to a outlying extreme example to negate it. Fact is, because I've lived through it to tell you, there is power in the unseen in the unknown land of aligning as a habit. Most people give up and insist the world is flat.

So I continue to say listen to O'Sensei. Rig your ship like you know you should then set your sights on the water in the distance and leave this safe harbor; at least for a change of scenery.

No apologies for my rant. It is a long time coming. And listen to Larry because he says, in different terms, another degree of what I'm saying . In case you don't get me.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-13-2008 at 08:07 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:17 PM   #53
Jonathan
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
I think this post demonstrates the general level of ignorance that exists in this thread regarding Shodokan training practices. It is interesting how many ppl cannot differentiate between a fight, a competition, a practice fight and a training drill.
I'm a little confused: On what basis, exactly, do you infer from my comment that I am unable to differentiate such things from one another? In fact, I can. I believe I refer to the knife competition as such. I don't call it a "fight," or a "drill," or a "practice fight."

Quote:
But then again, how many here have actually had to deal with serious personal violence while unarmed?
What does this have to do with being able to distinguish a competition from an actual fight?

Quote:
It is interesting how many comment on things they may know nothing about.
With regards to what I may or may not understand about Aikido and what an actual fight is like, it seems you should include yourself in this statement.

Quote:
In Shodokan training "resistance" has a lot more to do than "not being thrown" or "muscling out of technique" in fact this is not at all encouraged. It is a process of utilizing the opponent's waza to enter into your own kaeshiwaza ("resistance" by matching your opponent's movement) or instantly negate his power so that he cannot effect kuzushi ("resistance" via structural realignment and grounding of balance) and by extension execute successful waza. Like I said, there are no online clips with explanations of this so I won't bother trying to explain it.
Well, you actually just did - sort of. Look, I understand quite well what you're talking about here. We do similar principle-based training regularly.

Quote:
We need to remember that sometimes ppl's lives may actually depend on what we teach.
Which is why I have some qualms about the whole competition thing. I saw a couple of tae kwon do guys who were so competition-oriented that they had little idea how to use their skills outside of point scoring. What they had been taught revolved around competition so much that they were totally useless in an actual fight. I can't help but wonder to what degree (if at all) this excessive competition focus occurs in Shodokan Aikido. And if it does occur, how clearly do the students recognize that their competition shiai is very different from actual fighting.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:15 AM   #54
Amir Krause
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Re: Resistance and realism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If the shodothugs can do it, everybody can.

BTW, what are "unnaceptable risks" for you?, for instance, in the clips you can see in this worth reading article written by forum member D. Valadez show a (for me) safe training environment even if there is spontaneity and opposition.

Do your think Valadez and his deshi are taking unnaceptable risks?
Thanks for the article, I enjoyed reading.

Amir
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:34 AM   #55
Amir Krause
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
What one sees in shiai is such a small portion of the practice. In fact, much of what we do is very similar to how Amir described their own training methodology. Part of the problem is what people associate with the words "resistance" and "competition". We resist by matching our partner's energy and motion and then redirecting that motion when he least expects it (during kake) or we instantly negate his waza on contact, leaving him open for a counter. It never looks "pretty" on video because in shiai both members are skilled at preventing the other from succeeding. But then I guess "pretty" is the only thing of substance in many ppl's Aikido.

In a very real sense, this defines how we utilize "resistance". As soon as you "resist" in a manner that takes you out of coordination with your partner/uke/attacker you are no longer doing Aikido. This applies to us more so since the opportunities to get out of sync are increased when the other person is using his free will to be non-compliant. It challenges one to develop a higher level of ki musubi so that aiki can manifest even if the partner is planning on shutting you down and countering. At a different level one is able to manifest waza that removes the attacker's choice to resist since they literally never see the waza coming.
...
LC
So far, I had one opportunity to play Randori with a Tomiki \ Shodokan person: a friend from the net who learned in Japan and came home to Israel for a visit and came to our Dojo for a lesson upon my invitation. At the time he had a Shodan or NiDan, I am more veteran then he and we both have about the same level of strength and size.

Since he was in our class, obviously the "rules" were supposed to be closer to the rules in our practice then to the ones he was used to. Meaning:
- Each of the two participants attacks on his own preference.
- All attack forms are allowed: punching (similar to Krate style -- long fist, counter side fist or short fist), kicking or striking (Shomen Uchi \ Yokomen Uchi), grab and strike, and leg take downs.
- Fixed speed, preferably slower then both participants medium ability
- Resistance as I tried to explain above: Muscling out is strongly discouraged, countering is allowed based on participants level (no point in a Yundasha frustrating a noob).
- No forcing of technique by additional force (obviously this is a matter of measure).
- Uke should acknowledge a good technique and fall (the definition of a good technique depends on Tori level, if Uke is more experienced. If Tori is more experienced, Uke should actually fall to protect himself).
- No scoring, no winning, and no lose or loser.

We could play together, and unlike some(not all) Aikikai guys I trained with (Yundasha too) who practically lost it in our Randori, he definitely held his own nicely (We had people of his rank and experience who were better and others who fair worse). But, unlike our rules, I found he did try to muscle out, and to triple speed as a means of leaving a technique. We normally do not do that, and instead try to practice slowly to keep it safe (see later comment).
I also found out a difference to preferred technique variations. Ours are often were more dangerous to practice, while he used the version we teach beginners to keep them safe when they muscle (on the other hand, they rarely make us fall when veterans play Randori). Later he indicated he was acquainted with the variations we use, but they would lose him a point in Shihai…

Hope I had more then one person to play with and base my experience on. I do know such a single experiment is not sufficient for a real comparison.

Amir
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:43 AM   #56
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Amir: Some good points, which go back to my original statement on folks who may get fixated on shiai-based training. No system is perfect and competition can be useful if one understands the context, but destructive if it limits or defines ones practice. Sadly the "muscle out" response is way too common and can really hurt ones development, though I've experienced it in every Aikido style I've encountered that does any sort of randori with a kaeshiwaza element. Another bad thing about the muscle response is that it provides ones partner a good opportunity for kaeshiwaza. On the flip side however, if one is able to muscle out of our waza, how does that help us improve?

Regarding the "beginner techniques" most of what is allowed in shiai are kihon waza that are designed to be safe if one encounters abnormal and severe resistance in shiai. Thing is though, the simple basics are what helps one survive in actual conflict as well, many of the "advanced" techniques take very advanced skill to function properly when ones partner does not plan on cooperating. So again, if one is shiai-focused, development of "other" ways of executing waza may not be developed. Again, I have trained with folks in other Aikido methods (2nd Dan and above) who had to resort to the same "beginner techniques" when doing medium resistance randori in our dojo as the more complex movements simply left too many opportunities for kaeshiwaza.

Jennifer: You said exactly what I was talking about in a better way I think. Well done.

Best to all.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-14-2008, 05:49 AM   #57
Amir Krause
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Amir: Some good points, which go back to my original statement on folks who may get fixated on shiai-based training. No system is perfect and competition can be useful if one understands the context, but destructive if it limits or defines ones practice. Sadly the "muscle out" response is way too common and can really hurt ones development, though I've experienced it in every Aikido style I've encountered that does any sort of randori with a kaeshiwaza element. Another bad thing about the muscle response is that it provides ones partner a good opportunity for kaeshiwaza. On the flip side however, if one is able to muscle out of our waza, how does that help us improve?
Agreed.

As for doing a technique against muscular resistence. My Sensei solution is to practice it speficicly in Kata form with Tori going full speed or slow. The level and ways of resistence are measured relating to the Tori level and Uke capabilities.
Sensei (and us vetrans) suprvises both Tori and Uke in such training. Uke might resist in ways that negate the desired technique but make another more then inviting, in some cases I had to explain this to Uke in a very phisical way, so he will resist witout creating an entirely differnt opennning.
We do not train this way all time, only occusaionaly, we found out resisting too often ruins the overall technical abillity.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Regarding the "beginner techniques" most of what is allowed in shiai are kihon waza that are designed to be safe if one encounters abnormal and severe resistance in shiai. Thing is though, the simple basics are what helps one survive in actual conflict as well, many of the "advanced" techniques take very advanced skill to function properly when ones partner does not plan on cooperating. So again, if one is shiai-focused, development of "other" ways of executing waza may not be developed. Again, I have trained with folks in other Aikido methods (2nd Dan and above) who had to resort to the same "beginner techniques" when doing medium resistance randori in our dojo as the more complex movements simply left too many opportunities for kaeshiwaza.
Again, I agree with your comment on the "sophisticated techniques" compared to basic ones. However, I think we do not refer to the same things here. I talk about the safety of Uke if Tori performs the technique with full force and is not sensitive.

That day we worked on Shiho-Nage, our common variation of doing it uses a different angle compared to the variation often seen elsewhere. It keeps Uke elbow inline with Tori head and not above Uke shoulder (difficult to explain - I know ), we also push Uke arm to be more forward and farther from his shoulder compared to other places I have seen. This way more then triples the tork on Uke Elbow\Shoulder (wherever the tendons are weaker), further, once thepin is achieved, falling from this variation requires a very high jump (above own shoulder hight), I for one am not able to do, so normally Tori fells Uke as well as peroforming the pin.
We do not teach this way to beginners since they tend to use too much force and would likely dislocate Uke shoulder when doing this technique.

During the Randori, I fealt similar variations from him about a couple of additional techniques. So I asked my friend afterwards. His respnse was that he was surprised I used "our" variations, he had seen them before in Shodokan, but was taught not to use them in Randori beacuase thet were unsafe (and would constitue a penalty).

This is a price often payed by any M.A. for adding competitive practice. We on the other hand, can not play Randori at full speed if we wish to go home in one piece (and as amatours, that is our first priority so we practice much slower and without full force).

Hope I am clearer today.
Amir
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Old 08-14-2008, 07:40 AM   #58
salim
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Re: Resistance and realism

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
That is difficult to show in a video. Real resistance sometimes results in really "rude" solutions
It's not that the techniques change significantly (except for speed and force, maybe), but in practice it can lead to unacceptable risks. I'll try some more videos, and we'll see if I get closer to capturing what I mean.
Stefan,

I came across this informative video. Starting at about 1:50 in the video, it deals with resistance. Most traditional Aikido dojos don't teach tactile sensitivity and body mechanics often. I think the younger Aikidoka and those who aren't bothered with adaption, as long as Aiki principles are intact, may appreciate this video. I would love to hear your thoughts.

I hope you enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:04 AM   #59
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Kaeshiwaza and henkawaza

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Stefan,
I came across this informative video. Starting at about 1:50 in the video, it deals with resistance. Most traditional Aikido dojos don't teach tactile sensitivity and body mechanics often. I think the younger Aikidoka and those who aren't bothered with adaption, as long as Aiki principles are intact, may appreciate this video. I would love to hear your thoughts.
I hope you enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0
That's quite interesting. He is very pedagogical, and his instructions are very clear. I would say that this type of training should be part of the normal aikido curriculum, and it often is.

For example, in henkawaza we practice how to shift from one technique to another, often but not only because there is resistance to the first one. In some dojos, the relation between omote and ura is explained this way. When uke resists the omote solution, usually the ura solution is easy to use.
Henkawaza is very good for learning the dynamics of uke, and the strengths and weaknesses of one's techniques.

So are kaeshiwaza, the counter techniques. To me, the major purpose with kaeshiwaza is for tori to learn how to make the techniques so that they are very difficult to counter (or get out of).

Regarding Roy Dean's ikkyo solutions, they differ partly from how I do it. Here I do a bunch of ikkyo, on different attacks - in a basic, slow motion style, though, and not against particular resistance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrASNrLi7uI

As you can see, I prefer to step forward with the leg closest to uke when I bring uke's arm down. One of the reasons for doing this is to stop uke from getting back up again. Also, I am helped by my whole body moving forward, in getting uke's arm down.
Well, Dean's solution is probably more common in the aikido world than mine is. I am sure that it works fine for him.

Regarding ikkyo ura, I prefer to start with an ikkyo omote entrance, whatever the attack. That's because it is very difficult to bend uke's arm correctly for ikkyo, if starting on the ura side - especially in striking attacks.
Again, that's my choice. Other solutions might work just fine.

As for his choices of henkawaza (alternative techniques when the first is halted or countered), I usually prefer solutions where I don't need to go down on the floor.
This is for taninzugake (multiple attackers) reasons, and I believe that the taninzugake perspective is very central in aikido. If I can stay up, I have better chances when there are mutliple attackers, so I usually try for such solutions at first.
Of course, one must know what to do when landing on the floor, too. It can happen

Maybe I should film some ikkyo henkawaza and kaeshiwaza stuff, with resistance, after keiko tonight? I'll try to remember that...

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:24 AM   #60
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Full Resistance

Stefan, please do! I'm definitely not the only one who immensely enjoys your various aikido videos. :-)


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Old 08-14-2008, 12:52 PM   #61
Michael Douglas
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Re: Full Resistance

I enjoyed Stefan's Atemi video very much, thanks for putting it up.
I especially like the grab to iriminage.

I have a problem with complimenting the tanto competition techniques here ;
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
...These are the clips I tend to refer to, since they are the closest I have found that may relate to the Aikido concept of ending the conflict in an instant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCPE9YR5jA and - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo. These were taken during actual tanto shiai matches.
Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Interesting. That comes closer to what I would prefer as practice against resistance. The technique they do, I call kokyuho. A very effective and practical technique.
The second video definitely involves the 'winner' getting 'stabbed' in the armpit. Does this not count in the competition rules, or did the tanto guy falling down afterwards affect the decision?
The techniqur in both videos involves a suicidal lack of knife-arm control ... such that I could never ever bring myself to train it.
Each of Demetrio's little pictures shows initial control of the knife-arm so that the thrower is not stabbed;
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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm assuming this is the same Aikido style as the tanto competition clips above.

Larry, can you show me some good wins against the tanto guy which involve initially controlling the knife-arm?
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Old 08-14-2008, 03:16 PM   #62
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Full Resistance

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I'm assuming this is the same Aikido style as the tanto competition clips above.
Yes it is.

What you see is the difference between kata (the pics I posted) and randori (the videos). When one wants to "stab" and not be thrown and the other wants to throw and no to be "stabbed" things start to happen differenty compared with choreographed drills.

As Larry said before, there are differences between a fight, a competition, a practice fight and a training drill.

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Old 08-15-2008, 04:05 AM   #63
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Ikkyo - resistance and henkawaza

So, I remembered to do some filming after yesterday's class, and my members were kind enough to assist. Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIvsCZE7xAw

It's just ikkyo. And the only resitance here is gotai, from a static position. Of course, there are also ways to deal with dynamic resistance - i.e. an uke retreating to avoid tori's technique - but that's for another video...

In the beginning of the video, I show the turning of my hands in the ikkyo arm grip that I find quite helpful against strong and resisting uke.

Next, a few pointers on how to do it against resistance on two levels - low, at the initial katatedori grip, and high, at a shomen level. Those moments are where ikkyo is resisted the most.

After that, I do some henkawaza (shifting technique), which is the most common way of dealing with strong resistance against a certain technique - you just shift to another, where you can use that resisting force.

To me, the things on the video belong to regular aikido practice. I've done it since I started with aikido in 1972, because this was very frequently taught by every teacher I had in those days.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:47 PM   #64
Mike M
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No rehearsal??

Hi guys, newbie here with some questions. I've been watching a lot of Randori on youtube, and while it looks impressive, can anyone show me footage of any kind of sparing where the opponents actually try to offer resistance? Please? Also, not exactly Aikido centric, but I've watched complex "fights" in tournaments where, with either empty hands or armed, the opponents act and react very quickly; is it possible for any martial artists to act and react that quickly, without any kind of rehearsal? Thanks
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Old 08-23-2008, 05:52 AM   #65
Mark Uttech
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Re: No rehearsal??

Onegaishimasu. Training and practice are the training and practice of one's intuition. Randori practice is a kind of 'looking back to see how you are doing'. A good randori is without rehearsal. There are certain things you can practice, like getting off the line of attack when there is more than one attacker but it all starts with one attacker and then moves on to the next one.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 08-25-2008, 01:06 PM   #66
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Re: Ikkyo - resistance and henkawaza

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
In the beginning of the video, I show the turning of my hands in the ikkyo arm grip that I find quite helpful against strong and resisting uke..
I have a small remarque here - the method you are using is not well presented. You seem to ignoring some of the key martial elements of every technique:
- a correct distance. In presented situation attacker can reach you without much effort by using his free hand, head or his legs .

- right posture - you turning your back to attacker. This combined with too short distance as explained above; disqualify this presentation from martial point of view.

- vertical dimension of technique is not existing. Because of that, you are not generating enough power from your feet to face a serious attack. It means also, that attacker is not out of balance and can easily counter. The hips of attacker are not turned enough and he is not on his toes.

- you seems to pulling instead of pushing forward(irimi) into attacker center - as a result attacker is well balanced, and will run right into your center. And you are going against his power.

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Next, a few pointers on how to do it against resistance on two levels - low, at the initial katatedori grip, and high, at a shomen level. Those moments are where ikkyo is resisted the most.
For shomen case, you are receiving a 'strike' with your wrist that is bended. With a real strike, a wrist will be broken and a blow will land right on your face. You are also not controlling attacker elbow in the moment of the contact - it means for me that you're not taking control of his center, and you're too far from attacker. That is one of the reasons why in ura version you have to suddenly shorting the distance and using sharp movement to put uke down to recover from this error.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-25-2008, 02:52 PM   #67
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Ikkyo - resistance and henkawaza

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I have a small remarque here - the method you are using is not well presented. You seem to ignoring some of the key martial elements of every technique:
Well, we probably have differing ideas about how to accomplish reasonably safe techniques. But in this case, I should point out that I do gotai applications for the single purpose of showing how to deal with some examples of resistance on ikkyo.
That means the movements of the video are sort of isolated elements, taken out of the context of a complete technique in jutai timing, which would be the "normal" one.

For example: Of course I would not dream of blocking an oncoming strike with a twisted hand extending toward it. That's just a gotai setting, for visual clarity of the resisting moment.

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Old 08-26-2008, 06:36 AM   #68
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Full Resistance

LOL
I was expecting this kind of excuse. The other possible one is usually: We study and explore techniques so it is not complete yet...

I would be very interested to see the "complete' technique against resistance in ikkyo, both from grab and from strike. I bet it will look completely different. I don't believe it is physically possible to deal with serious resistance by doing 'isolated elements' of any sort.
Only very complete technique that respects martial aspect of aikido can do it - because it is by its nature - complete. It means there is no opening for resistance. You attempt to present isolated ‘tricks’ - and it is useless. Nobody can learn from your presentation how to deal with resistance.

Nagababa

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Old 08-26-2008, 07:50 AM   #69
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Full Resistance

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
LOL
I was expecting this kind of excuse.
Your attitude doesn't leave much room for dialectics...
As I said, we have differing ideas about it.

Actually, I agree with you about a complete technique not opening for resistance. Still, gotai, from a static position, needs to be trained. Otherwise we are unprepared for a moment when somebody actually gets to complete a grip.
And considerations of importance in gotai solutions should be included also in jutai execution of the technique.

I make it a point not to allow for big changes of the technique between gotai and jutai. Others be the judges of whether I actually accomplish it or not.
On the video in question, the henkawaza applications are done pretty much in the tempo I regard as reasonable for those techniques. They start from a gotai static position, still, but from then on move in regular speed.

Here's the video discussed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIvsCZE7xAw

I checked my other ikkyo videos on YouTube, but in each of them the techniques are done in an instructive slow tempo. Nonetheless, that's how I do ikkyo normally, although faster. No change of form.
Here's a bunch of them (although in slow-motion):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrASNrLi7uI

Szczepan, by any chance, have you made a video that shows how it should be done, or have you seen other videos that meet with your demands?

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Old 08-26-2008, 09:12 AM   #70
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Full Resistance

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Szczepan, by any chance, have you made a video that shows how it should be done...
Btw, re-upload the "tenkan of steel" video... i miss it.

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Old 08-26-2008, 09:55 AM   #71
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Re: Full Resistance

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I don't believe it is physically possible to deal with serious resistance by doing 'isolated elements' of any sort.
I would agree that against a serious attacker, using isolated elements isn't going to work well, but I think it's possible to teach or practice aspects of the whole in order to strengthen that whole...as long as at some point you're bringing it all together. To me it's not much different than teaching specific techniques. Sure we can focus too much on those specific movements and forget the principles they're meant to teach us, but they are simply examples of part of the way a person can move using aiki. To make the study of waza "complete" we have to be able to start finding how to move in ways that are different from those crystalized forms...to move organically based on what those techniques hopefully illustrate.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:00 PM   #72
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Full Resistance

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Szczepan, by any chance, have you made a video that shows how it should be done, or have you seen other videos that meet with your demands?
It is not in the tradition of my teachers to put video on youtube. I think I'll stick with their approach. However, if we meet one day at the seminar, I can show how it should be done, no problem
I also think that our understanding what is 'full resistance' from static or dynamic attack is very different. That is the reason why you can't discover the openings in your technique.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:38 PM   #73
eyrie
 
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Re: Full Resistance

That's a real shame, O unpronounceable One... you could have such a promising future in film-making, particularly in the satirical parody genre. So will we never get to see the sequel to "Tenkan of Steel"?

Ignatius
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Old 12-28-2008, 06:57 PM   #74
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Integration and Awareness!

The future is not about separation, but rather integration with other styles of Jujutsu, fueling a natural progression of Aikido. Ultimately, awareness, timing and sensitivity are the attributes that will take you the farthest in acquiring deep skills, and conserve energy when facing larger opponents.

While Aikido is philosophically rich, competition and practicing at full resistance is generally discouraged by most modern Aikidoka. This is a reflection of the founders religious orientation. Working with non-resistant opponents can lead to a false sense of security. This leads to disappointment when skills are needed most.

Should we as Aikidoka change our training methods, redefining Aikido practice as a whole? Sparring clearly illustrates that the first attempt at a technique does not always work. Ueshiba's vision may be well served, even enhanced by incorporating training methods of full resistance. Should we as Aikidoka learn to adopt sparring in it's true nature of learning of what works? It's time for change, and perhaps the time has arrived.
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:25 PM   #75
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Full Resistance

Salim, I think that all depends on your goals and endstate of your training. I think if your endstate involves actually coming out on top of a fight, or at best, improving your odds, then Yes, there needs to be some sort of resistive training.

I just posted a small little piece on the OODA process over on my blog yesterday, and the importance of including non-compliant training as part of your overall training process.

Here is another link I found tonight on the OODA process as it relates to empty handed martial arts. I think it is actually not a bad piece of work to consider.

http://www.fighthouse.com/systema/ooda_in.pdf

Peter (the Budo Bum) Boylan, also makes some good points to consider in response to my blog:

http://budobum.blogspot.com/2008/12/...-and-kata.html

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