Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-27-2008, 10:22 AM   #676
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I always thought that some sports, btw, may have evolved from war stuff, i.e. core gymnastics sports, football, fotbal, etc. while others have not, i.e. bowling, golf, basketball, etc.
Hi Buck,

Not only does this sound right, sport was long seen as a way of training the young for war. Many games develop rules that highlight things like teamwork, sacrifice, etc.

My understanding as a Yank has been that the British in the heyday of the Empire saw sport as positive because it prepared the children of the elite to become officers -- Someone who knows --does that sound right?

DH
 
Old 12-27-2008, 10:41 AM   #677
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It's poetic budo code (I got it from Gozo Shido's books- think it is the advance techniques for Aikido). He is using sword work as a metaphor for not hesitating- to act quickly, e.g. kendo's "right mind." kind of thingy.
I was just wondering, do you talk like that in person (the the "thingy" thing)?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
Do we live in a constant state of competition? Is competition something we have no choice, but to engage in, or like is it something we choose to do i.e., if something is plentiful that meets the demands of the increasing population, like food, do we need to compete for it?
Yes we do, whether some realize it or not. There's all kinds of examples of competition all around us, one just has to notice.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
If you buy into the evolution thingy, doesn't evolution happen naturally, automatically, we have no say in it. There is no choice, but for it to happen. Aikido naturally on its own evolves at its own rate and time;
There goes that "thingy" thing again. What's up with that? Once again (for the 3rd or 4th time), you're talking about biological evolution, which applies to all things in Nature. That's different than the evolution that I'm talking about, which also applies to Aikido , which is the Industrial evolution, which can happen in a matter of weeks or overnight and applies to most all things not occuring in Nature. Now, since the pinciples of Aikido are based on Natural Principles, then it falls under the "Natural biological evolution" and those will have to evolve naturally, but all other things in Aikido can be evolved much sooner.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
FWIW, "House," it is a TV show. It is written by writers, not scientists, or athletes, it goes along the same lines as the actor Hugh Laurie who plays the fictional character Gregory House MD, isn't really a doctor. And my fav line in "House" of all time is, "everyone lies."
Wow, sounds like you're as cynical as House and you may be right about everyone's roles( on House), that takes nothing away from the fact that the statement is absolutely true.-"If it wasn't for competition, we'd all still be single cell organisms."

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 10:49 AM   #678
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Osensei wrote:
Without the slightest opening
Nor the least thought of the enemy
And his encircling swords,
Step in and cut!- Morihei Ueshiba
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It's poetic budo code]
My point is that he advises to "step in (and cut)" even without an opening. Not only is that not martially sound, but isn't that the very scenario we train for? Don't we hope our opponent "steps in " without an opening? Imo, that's bad advice and a point of evolution.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-27-2008 at 10:57 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 11:06 AM   #679
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
My point is that he advises to "step in (and cut)" even without an opening. Not only is that not martially sound, but isn't that the very scenario we train for? Don't we hope our opponent "steps in " without an opening? Imo, that's bad advice and a point of evolution.
I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding the quote. Who else in the scenario might not have an opening?

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 11:06 AM   #680
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I didn't think you idea had changed. I was trying to change my own view to be in accordance with your own, but alas cannot. I got your point about the pigeon and simply offered the idea that the dove, apparently, evolved differently to suit a different context. I guess that was a dead horse, sorry.
Matt, I didn't participate in this thread, nor maintain my position to recruit folks or sway anyone, I do it because that's honestly what I believe. I have no idea why the pigeon is more evolved than the Dove, that's just my observation. If pressed, I'd have to guess it'd be the Pigeon's homing instinct which caused the Pigeon to take the evolutionary leap ahead of the Dove, et al. Maybe folks are mistakingly thinking that biological evolutionary change is a conscious effort.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 11:08 AM   #681
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post

Yes we do, whether some realize it or not. There's all kinds of examples of competition all around us, one just has to notice.
Splendid! We already have plenty of competition then. Maybe it's time to evolve to greater cooperation.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 11:10 AM   #682
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Without the slightest opening
Nor the least thought of the enemy
And his encircling swords,
Step in and cut!- Morihei Ueshiba

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding the quote. Who else in the scenario might not have an opening?
I don't think I am. Usually he's talking to (about) the student, but in case he's not, in this case , he says "without the slightest openings", to me, meaning none. Plus, one can also extrapolate that the "enemy" had two smaller swords, rather than the Katana, which was actually the preferred fighting tools/skill of the time.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-27-2008 at 11:24 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 11:11 AM   #683
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Matt, I didn't participate in this thread, nor maintain my position to recruit folks or sway anyone, I do it because that's honestly what I believe. I have no idea why the pigeon is more evolved than the Dove, that's just my observation. If pressed, I'd have to guess it'd be the Pigeon's homing instinct which caused the Pigeon to take the evolutionary leap ahead of the Dove, et al. Maybe folks are mistakingly thinking that biological evolutionary change is a conscious effort.
I didn't say you were trying to change anyone's opinion. I was trying to change mine because I regularly try to refine/change/adapt my thinking to suite new information.
I don't think anyone has suggested biological evolution is conscious.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 12:26 PM   #684
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

If we are going to get into a discussion of social evolution, we are going to get into another argument on terminology, as well as an argument about it's connection or lack of connection with the processes of biological evolution.

As I said many posts ago, most modern social scientists would have real problems with the idea of the Industrial Revolution as a model of progressive social evolution in a unitary direction.

No one need change her position or his position because of that fact. But it seems to me the burden of persuasion should rest with those who wish to use a theory of social change that generally has been rejected by scholars who study social change as an ideology of the Industrial Revolution.

And, that is before we get to why a generally unaccepted scientific theory sheds light on change in the martial arts.

Did Chess have to adapt to survive?

FWIW

DH
 
Old 12-27-2008, 12:33 PM   #685
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I understand better when I am on the mat training. Talking or writing about opinions is a form of competition. Aikido to me is training together so we both get stronger. Competion is discouraged at our dojo...if folks want that they need to train somewhere else.
Mary
 
Old 12-27-2008, 01:07 PM   #686
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Splendid! We already have plenty of competition then. Maybe it's time to evolve to greater cooperation.
Yes we do- if businesses don't compete, they go under; everything in Nature is about competition, all sports is about competition; All fighting/war is about competition; folks compete for jobs, food, parking spaces, sales, status, just about everything. Negative and positive energy compete for space, etc. Yep, plenty of competition.

Now that would be a wondeful thing and that would be a great evolvement. Btw, isn't that what Kumbaya is all about?
Also, would you consider more cooperation an evolvement?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 02:00 PM   #687
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I didn't say you were trying to change anyone's opinion. I was trying to change mine because I regularly try to refine/change/adapt my thinking to suite new information.
I don't think anyone has suggested biological evolution is conscious.
Sorry if I mis-understood you. My bad.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 02:06 PM   #688
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
If we are going to get into a discussion of social evolution, we are going to get into another argument on terminology, as well as an argument about it's connection or lack of connection with the processes of biological evolution.
Well, then I don't think that's a problem, 'cause we're not talking about social evolution(which some might think an American black President as such).

Quote:
David hendeson wrote:
Did Chess have to adapt to survive?
Yes, it did.
Quote:
Wikipedia wrote:
Chess is a recreational and competitive game played between two players. Sometimes called Western chess or international chess to distinguish it from its predecessors and other chess variants, the current form of the game emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after EVOLVING from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-27-2008 at 02:09 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 03:19 PM   #689
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post

Did Chess have to adapt to survive?
I'm not sure if it had to, but it did change: as I recall the queen wasn't always so powerful.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 03:21 PM   #690
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry if I mis-understood you. My bad.
No worries! I misunderstand things plenty (once a long time ago, and once is enough ).

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 03:39 PM   #691
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Btw, isn't that what Kumbaya is all about?
Also, would you consider more cooperation an evolvement?
I thought Kumbaya was about eating smores around a camp-fire with my mom's hippie friends!

But seriously folks...
Yes, I do think more cooperation would generally be an evolvement...whatever it is we're talking about: civilizations can't exist without it; species propogate better with it than without; and I think the same is true for nearly everything else. I don't think competition is the best model for business, etc. because it tends to inspire subversive actions and a win-at-all-costs attitude. It doesn't have to, but it often does just the same.
So I guess I think competition can be healthy as long as it's on the periphery and not the central thrust of one's . It's like a game to generate motivation in my mind. I'm probably a little biased though. I grew up being pretty competitive and all my friends are/were very competitive, and those experiences coupled with my views on some of the above mentioned (business being central to that, FWIW) have often left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm far more interested in other-regarding modes of behavior and tend to see competition as counter to that. To use your examples of competition in martial arts: I like what little I saw of Shodokan competition because I believe at the heart of it lies a cooperative essence.
Sorry if this post was a bit rambling.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 04:27 PM   #692
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Evolve \E*volve"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Evolved; p. pr. & vb.
n. Evolving.] [L. evolvere, evolutum; e out + volvere to
roll. See Voluble.]
1. To unfold or unroll; to open and expand; to disentangle
and exhibit clearly and satisfactorily; to develop; to
derive; to educe.

The animal soul sooner evolves itself to its full
orb and extent than the human soul. --Sir. M.
Hale.

The principles which art involves, science alone
evolves. --Whewell.

Not by any power evolved from man's own resources,
but by a power which descended from above. --J. C.
Shairp.

2. To throw out; to emit; as, to evolve odors.
 
Old 12-27-2008, 05:23 PM   #693
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolved

Main Entry: evolve
Pronunciation: \i-ˈvälv, -ˈvȯlv, ē- also -ˈväv or -ˈvȯv\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): evolved; evolv·ing
Etymology: Latin evolvere to unroll, from e- + volvere to roll — more at voluble
Date: 1775
transitive verb
1: emit
2 a: derive , educe b: to produce by natural evolutionary processes c: develop , work out <evolve social, political, and literary philosophies — L. W. Doob>
intransitive verb
: to undergo evolutionary change
— evolv·able \-ˈväl-və-bəl, -ˈvȯl- also -ˈvä-və- or -ˈvȯ-və-\ adjective
— evolve·ment \-ˈvälv-mənt, -ˈvȯlv- also -ˈväv- or -ˈvȯv-\ noun
 
Old 12-27-2008, 05:26 PM   #694
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

[quote=Matthew Gano;222116]I thought Kumbaya was about eating smores around a camp-fire with my mom's hippie friends!]/quote]

Wow, for me it wasa bunch o fBoyscouts at Boyscout camp.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
But seriously folks...
Yes, I do think more cooperation would generally be an evolvement...So I guess I think competition can be healthy as long as it's on the periphery and not the central thrust of one's Matt
Oh yes, my intent for competition is strictly to enhance one's "DO" and whatever the Japanese word(s)/character(s) for a person's skill at an art and his mettle in battle and mercy in battle and integrity in battle and purity of heart/character. In English it's Gentleman.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 05:52 PM   #695
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

The cover story for Scientific American, January 2009, entitled, The Evolution of Evolution, How Darwin's Theory Survives, Thrives, and Reshapes the World:

"From his readings of Lyell, Darwin took the idea of gradual change in the geological landscape and reasoned that it must also apply to biological organisms: one species must beget another. The recognition of ... mutability was shared by some other thinkers of the day. But it was conceived as a scala naturae -- an ascending ladder in which each lineage of plant or animal arose by spontaneous generation... and then progressed inexorably toward greater complexity and perfection.

Darwin rejected this straight-line progression in favor of what is now called branching evolution ...

The concept of a tree of life still begged a "how" for evolution, a gap that led to Darwin's most revolutionary idea, the theory of natural selection."

P. 42.

There's enough here to fuel different views, I dare say.

If we are talking about evolution in the sense of natural selection, there needs to be a selection mechanism -- see Kevin's post a few pages back questioning this, and the resulting dialog with Gene, who holds to his view that, while not biological evolution, Aikido is subject to selective pressure -- it must adapt and be effective to survive.

If we are talking about evolution in one of the other senses listed in most dictionaries, as unrolling, emitting, or deriving, then quite a few different meanings come into play.

Like in the OP, when talking about the evolution of Aikido, which may use "evolve" in the sense of the first sample definition:

"The principles which art involves, science alone
evolves." --Whewell.

This aphorism leads me to note, FWIW, that if we are talking about Budo as an "art," (another metaphor or analogy), then to say, "there is really nothing new in Budo," is to say that the principles one might tease out of an analysis (evolve) are already "involved" in the art, qua art.

Regards,

DH
 
Old 12-27-2008, 06:25 PM   #696
GeneC
Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
... If we are talking about evolution in the sense of natural selection...,DH
We're not.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-27-2008, 06:35 PM   #697
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene,

I respect that you've taken a position, and I'm not trying to change your mind.

But if you are saying that Aikido must improve, what mechanism do you think is at work here?

If the answer is competition, then that is the same mechanism involved in natural selection.

I'm not suggesting your view is that Aikido is subject to biological evolution; but it seems to me your position does involve the idea of survival based on competition in the "marketplace" of martial arts.

If so, and I'm not critiquing your position, then it seems to me you are using the idea of evolution in a similar sense to the idea of biological evolution, as opposed to one of the other definitions of the word.

Those other definitions don't necessarily involve the idea of improvement, or competition, or survival of the fittest/more effective/more popular, or more-what-have you.

The concept of natural selection is very similar to the idea of competition in classic capitalist economics and even 18th Century democratic theories of free competition in the marketplace of both goods and ideas.

So, my friend, if you do mean evolution in a sense different from what I understood, could you tie your idea to one of the other accepted meanings of evolve?

Regards,

DH
 
Old 12-27-2008, 06:39 PM   #698
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hi Buck,

Not only does this sound right, sport was long seen as a way of training the young for war. Many games develop rules that highlight things like teamwork, sacrifice, etc.

My understanding as a Yank has been that the British in the heyday of the Empire saw sport as positive because it prepared the children of the elite to become officers -- Someone who knows --does that sound right?

DH
All militaries involve sports and competition to enhance their readiness and skills to fight.

In the last 5 years, the Army has established the Modern Army Combatives Championship.

We also have other events as well. In fact, I am headed to Italy in a few weeks to see the international Military Biathlon Championships.

Militaries have always had the need to throw, jump, run, climb, and fight. Those will always be things that militaries must do. We will always have competitions that involve those elements.

 
Old 12-27-2008, 06:54 PM   #699
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post

Oh yes, my intent for competition is strictly to enhance one's "DO" and whatever the Japanese word(s)/character(s) for a person's skill at an art and his mettle in battle and mercy in battle and integrity in battle and purity of heart/character. In English it's Gentleman.
Well those are certainly all good things in my book. My view is that the truest measure of a warrior is the ability to bring peace above all else, and mercy is one of the greatest "weapons" there is for such a thing.
I'm fairly sure you answered this earlier, but do you think competition is necessary for physical efficacy or is something that can help develop it?

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-27-2008, 07:05 PM   #700
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 679
United_States
Online
Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
...Gene, who holds to his view that, while not biological evolution, Aikido is subject to selective pressure -- it must adapt and be effective to survive.
This, I think, sums up the core issue of this thread quite nicely. Taken as an hypothesis, it is up to the supporters of this view to supply evidence to prove its veracity. Some questions, then, that need answering:

Definition of terms:

1. How is "selective pressure" being defined within the context of the conjecture?

2. How is "survive" being defined within the context of the conjecture?

3. How is "effective" being defined within the context of the conjecture?

Procedural

1. How and by whom is selective pressure being applied to Aikido that is forcing it to adapt in order to survive?

2. What constitutes survival of Aikido?

3. What measure of effectiveness is to be applied to gauge whether or not Aikido will survive if the measure is not met?

4. The number of people studying Aikido continues to grow. Is it the position of the supporters of the hypothesis that Aikido growth will stop and Aikido will decline and fade out of existence if the criteria for its continued existance are not met?

I've tried to provide a framework to struture the debate. David provided the hypothesis based on his view of what Gene has been proposing. Please feel free to add to the list or change things around as you see fit. Perhaps, at some point we will reach a consensus and then let time test the theory, as in any event, it most surely will.

Ron
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
AikiWeb Raffle for Mary Heiny Sensei akiy General 68 05-27-2008 10:37 AM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:27 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate