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Old 12-23-2008, 10:28 PM   #576
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... the path of ultimately understanding how to stop harm or conflict, or at least reaching an understanding of the causes of conflict.

Aikido as an art, as you know has a full spectrum of that practice. ... It should not be taken though that Aikido needs to EVOLVE because I have learned from these non-aikidoka, only that aikido can be essentially "Open Source" within its core foundation. Much valuable can be learned by looking at others and looking at our own framework critically from time to time.
Development is one thing. Evolution is something else.

Evolution is only recognized after the fact and then only after a number of generations of substantial difference make the two heritages unviable when combined.

Aikido is still developing. It is not yet really evolving; and if it were it would no longer be aikido. Development occurs as the realization of a principle in the nature of a thing is combined with substances external to the developing entity. In evolution the principle changes.

This interplay of essential principle and external contribution continues in aikido, on many fronts. But the essentials have not changed in the three lineages I have trained in. In any event, and despite the distinctions, they have not made the experiences of others unintelligible to me..

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 10:38 PM   #577
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Oh, I wish I could cancel instead of post, but this line is just too too telling:
Quote:
Clarance Couch wrote:
Btw, I know of no concept so complex that I can't deduce to a single sentence or paragraph.
One example rebuts that -- his own DNA sequence. Only a four letter alphabet, but 3 billion base pairs. The sequence defining Gene cannot be meaningfully reduced, at all, much less into a paragraph, and, more to the point, Gene still cannot be deduced from it either.

Aikido is similarly unique, and, despite its familial relations -- it is neither less nor more than they are -- it simply is what it is. It may be explored, yes; reduced, never.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-23-2008, 10:50 PM   #578
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Development is one thing. Evolution is something else.

Evolution is only recognized after the fact and then only after a number of generations of substantial difference make the two heritages unviable when combined.

Aikido is still developing. It is not yet really evolving; and if it were it would no longer be aikido. Development occurs as the realization of a principle in the nature of a thing is combined with substances external to the developing entity. In evolution the principle changes.

This interplay of essential principle and external contribution continues in aikido, on many fronts. But the essentials have not changed in the three lineages I have trained in. In any event, and despite the distinctions, they have not made the experiences of others unintelligible to me..
I agree Erick!

It is people that develop and grow...and maybe evolve around the methodology. My Aikido and understanding of it certainly is not what it was 15 years ago. My aikido may not even be the same as yours! At the core though, I am betting that we share the same common core of expectations and desired outcome, and for that, we could get together and practice and learn from each other.

 
Old 12-23-2008, 11:31 PM   #579
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Aikido is similarly unique, and, despite its familial relations -- it is neither less nor more than they are -- it simply is what it is. It may be explored, yes; reduced, never.
Senseis Watson and Crick have not released their findings to this thread yet.

Everyone has a concept of a thing called "aikido." Everyone can read this statement and see that it is true for his own true aikido and feel bolstered. The statement is a tautology even larger than the "it is what it is" statement.

So, while we can certainly accept and work with Erick's definitions of "evolution" and "development," what I believe this thread failed to produce so far was aikido's DNA. That is, we are discussing the evolution or development of what exactly?

This failing was indicated early in the thread by others, and some have indicated their views of what is key (no pun intended). If it was resolved, I missed it.

For what it's worth, I am not calling for a search for the definition; I am simply pointing out that without it we cannot address the thread's question. In mathematics and other disciplines, I expect that rigor; in zen, aikido, and similar, I know deeply that it's futile. Any concept of aikido is not aikido---unless I'm wrong.

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-23-2008 at 11:35 PM. Reason: zen silliness :)

 
Old 12-23-2008, 11:42 PM   #580
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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... DNA sequence. Only a four letter alphabet, but 3 billion base pairs. The sequence defining Gene cannot be meaningfully reduced, at all, much less into a paragraph, and, more to the point, Gene still cannot be deduced from it either.

Aikido is similarly unique, and, despite its familial relations -- it is neither less nor more than they are -- it simply is what it is. It may be explored, yes; reduced, never.
That's an interesting metaphor for aikido! The techniques are no more the whole of aikido than my set of alleles is me. Techniques are taught and learned differently, practised differently and with different people, and distilled in our own set of experiences; surel no two people's aikido is the same. But just like you, Kevin, Gene and I are all human, the aikido that each of us practise, assuming a comprehensive skill level, is aikido..

Just as we could ask, "well what are the things that make us human?", the metaphor does beg the question of "what makes something aikido?" (I'm sure the latter question would provoke as many answers and speculation as the former!)

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-24-2008, 12:47 AM   #581
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Jeremy wrote:

Quote:
Just as we could ask, "well what are the things that make us human?", the metaphor does beg the question of "what makes something aikido?" (I'm sure the latter question would provoke as many answers and speculation as the former!
Absolutely, and I think it is healthy that we may walk away with no concrete answer. I believe what is important in the dialogue or the practice is that we meet, define a problem, try to understand it from the other persons view point, and we attempt to resolve it, and we gain a little more knowledge from the experience.

I do think though that at the core of our practice, that we practice learning "Ai Ki" which as Erick, I, Mike Sigman, and a few others might debate for days over exactly what that means.

 
Old 12-24-2008, 07:40 AM   #582
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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So, while we can certainly accept and work with Erick's definitions of "evolution" and "development," what I believe this thread failed to produce so far was aikido's DNA. That is, we are discussing the evolution or development of what exactly? ,,, In mathematics and other disciplines, I expect that rigor; in zen, aikido, and similar, I know deeply that it's futile. Any concept of aikido is not aikido---unless I'm wrong.
That same problem exists in the biological template being used ... we only know the proverbial chicken is developmentally related to the egg, because we have watched chickens grow from eggs. The chicken-egg problem is not a problem -- The egg is a chicken is an egg. They are each constitutive elements of the other. They form an organic whole, even though at certain scales of observation there are distinctions to be made.

An organic whole is not other than it is because it exists at some intermediate stage of development (or evolution). At the individual level of detail it is impossible to make out the broad patterns that finally distinguish one path of development from another. The fact that at some point what we describe as the last of feathered dinosaurs became something more like chickens is a conclusion -- not a premise.

In human terms, distinctions ARE made as premises, but they are for purposes unrelated to the natural development of the art. They are attempts to force such distinctions well before they are so divergent as to be naturally inarguable (for a variety of reasons, good and bad) when the division may be more apparent than real.
That may be one useful point of identifying aikido -- it is an outgrowth, a natural thing, an organic development of a basic physical reality, not an invented or engineered construct. One can find spirituality in that fact, as many do, but you don't have to.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-24-2008, 09:59 AM   #583
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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#574 - Very nice post, Kevin
Yes, it is.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

DH
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:19 AM   #584
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Gene,

Respectfully, I wasn't addressing you. Peace to you and all your relations.

And seek to understand before trying to be understood is still worth repeating.
Then I apologize. Yes that is a very good 'something to think about'.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:24 AM   #585
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I think Budo can be a wide open field subject to great interpretation.
Budo is the way of war or fighting, plain and simple.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:30 AM   #586
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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That same problem exists in the biological template being used ... we only know the proverbial chicken is developmentally related to the egg, because we have watched chickens grow from eggs. The chicken-egg problem is not a problem -- The egg is a chicken is an egg. They are each constitutive elements of the other. They form an organic whole, even though at certain scales of observation there are distinctions to be made.

An organic whole is not other than it is because it exists at some intermediate stage of development (or evolution). At the individual level of detail it is impossible to make out the broad patterns that finally distinguish one path of development from another. The fact that at some point what we describe as the last of feathered dinosaurs became something more like chickens is a conclusion -- not a premise.

In human terms, distinctions ARE made as premises, but they are for purposes unrelated to the natural development of the art. They are attempts to force such distinctions well before they are so divergent as to be naturally inarguable (for a variety of reasons, good and bad) when the division may be more apparent than real.
That may be one useful point of identifying aikido -- it is an outgrowth, a natural thing, an organic development of a basic physical reality, not an invented or engineered construct. One can find spirituality in that fact, as many do, but you don't have to.
In this thread, the ostrich, the platypus, and the snake showed up to discuss the evolution of the chicken---specifically, how the chicken might be made better. This was not a problem until each one revealed his own thoughts that he was himself a chicken and that at least one of the others was not. The revelations occurred when the snake said that the chicken's scales might be modified, when the platypus said the chicken's milk could be fortified, when the ostrich said the chicken's legs should be at least this long, ... There may have been a pheasant who said that the chicken was perfect as it is, but I suspect he thought he was a chicken, too.

So much for the Art of Peace

So, I don't believe I'm oblivious to your argument---I may be very much in agreement. For what it's worth, I also don't believe earlier disagreements nullified your model; I only state that it would not have resolved the misunderstandings. I'm asking you to drive it home. You've defined "evolution" and "development" for us (to help us distinguish what is and what is not "evolution" as per the thread's topic); we just need the definition of "aikido" now---so people will know what is and what is not aikido.

My own belief, restated---and also for what it's worth---is that it is an error in aikido to strive to define aikido---except perhaps as an exercise to bring you to this conclusion. But, as usual, I may be wrong.

 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:31 AM   #587
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Development is one thing. Evolution is something else. ..
Yes, in R&D- reseach and developement- research is done to find a a way to improve the product. Finding that way to improve and then producing the improved product is developement. When the improved product is proven to be a success, then it's considered an evolution of that product.

Same with Aikido.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:37 AM   #588
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I am simply pointing out that without it we cannot address the thread's question. In mathematics and other disciplines, I expect that rigor; in zen, aikido, and similar, I know deeply that it's futile. Any concept of aikido is not aikido---unless I'm wrong.
Sure we can. The priciples of Aikido are based on absolute mathmatical and physical laws. In fact, I don't know why it's called an "art" at all...any more than math or physics are called arts.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:40 AM   #589
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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That same problem exists in the biological template being used ... we only know the proverbial chicken is developmentally related to the egg, because we have watched chickens grow from eggs. The chicken-egg problem is not a problem -- The egg is a chicken is an egg. They are each constitutive elements of the other. They form an organic whole, even though at certain scales of observation there are distinctions to be made.
Right , we can't use a biological tenplate because this is not a biological issue, it's simply a manmade art based on Natural science. Btw, the only porblem with the chicken or the egg is which came first.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:42 AM   #590
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Oh, I wish I could cancel instead of post, but this line is just too too telling:
Quote:
GeneC wrote:
Btw, I know of no concept so complex that I can't deduce to a single sentence or paragraph.
Forgive me this one transgression, Jun
No problem here, simply give me a concept and see.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-24-2008 at 10:45 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:47 AM   #591
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Btw, the only porblem with the chicken or the egg is which came first.
Every individual chicken is preceded by an egg.

Ron
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:53 AM   #592
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Sure we can. The priciples of Aikido are based on absolute mathmatical and physical laws.
Please feel free to explain Ki and mind/body coordination in terms of mathematics and physical laws. And if you're going to fall back on the Ki is energy and part of the electromagnetic spectrum assumption then exactly where in the spectrum does it fall and how do you go about measuring it, what is the wavelength of Ki, what are the exchange particles that transmit Ki energy?

Ron
 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:02 AM   #593
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Quote:
I wrote:
I am simply pointing out that without it we cannot address the thread's question. In mathematics and other disciplines, I expect that rigor; in zen, aikido, and similar, I know deeply that it's futile. Any concept of aikido is not aikido---unless I'm wrong.
Sure we can. The priciples of Aikido are based on absolute mathmatical and physical laws. In fact, I don't know why it's called an "art" at all...any more than math or physics are called arts.
If aikido is the thing which is uniquely generated by a set of principles, then define that set.

Next, let us explore that space of things generated by that set, just to be sure that it is unique. Consider that we may not need to compete with BJJ, for instance, if BJJ is generated by that same set of principles. We can simply claim that BJJ already is aikido and declare victory.

 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:20 AM   #594
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Every individual chicken is preceded by an egg.Ron
Ok, and every individual egg is produced by a chicken..

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:24 AM   #595
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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One example rebuts that -- his own DNA sequence. Only a four letter alphabet, but 3 billion base pairs. ...
But you did it..DNA sequence= 4 alphabets consisting of 3 billion base pairs.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:40 AM   #596
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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If aikido is the thing which is uniquely generated by a set of principles, then define that set..
Newton's laws of motion including Centripedal and Centrifugal force.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #597
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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If aikido is the thing which is uniquely generated by a set of principles, then define that set..
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Newton's laws of motion including Centripedal and Centrifugal force.
Fair enough. We have:

(1) Intertia.
(2) F=ma.
(3) Actions have equal and opposite reactions.
plus equations regarding forces and angular acceleration.

If we look at the things that obey these laws, I agree that aikido is among them; but, does there exist a martial art that does not obey all of these laws? Does there exist an anything that does not obey these laws? (Within reason, in this neck of the ordinary universe, of course.)

Again, if that's all there is, aikido does not, for instance, have to change to be as popular as BJJ because BJJ already is aikido---we've got it covered.

We can add more constraints to the set if you like. Is there a physical or mathematical principle in aikido that is not found in, again by way of example, BJJ so that we can eliminate BJJ from the set generated by those principles and finally declare aikido and BJJ to be different?

 
Old 12-24-2008, 12:44 PM   #598
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Joe wrote:

Quote:
We can add more constraints to the set if you like. Is there a physical or mathematical principle in aikido that is not found in, again by way of example, BJJ so that we can eliminate BJJ from the set generated by those principles and finally declare aikido and BJJ to be different?
Of course there is not. We might choose to ignore principles or attempt to "power through them", or we might attempt to "skip things" in order to get to a place we really want to go. However, we are still subject to them.

I think the difference is simply in the paradigm of the methodology we are adhering to in our practice. Once we begin to open our minds and subject ourselves to other paradigms, we are presented with a whole new world.

The problem arises when we don't recognize it for what it is and we start to dismiss what we are experiencing. (Cognitive Dissonance).

As I stated above in another post, the difference is that in Aikido we concentrate on a very narrow set of parameters in order to master Ai Ki. We might define success in terms of aiki slightly different than in terms of BJJ.

 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:02 PM   #599
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Every individual chicken is preceded by an egg.

Ron
Yes, and, historically, an egg hatched into whatever organism we want to call the first chicken. That egg was laid by a proto-chicken.

Ergo, the egg came first.

The problem with the old saying is it mixes categories -- the general and the specific -- to create the apparent paradox.

And, the truth likely is if we saw the first chicken, we wouldn't recognize it as a different species, for reasons already stated by, I believe, Erick.

Regards

David
 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:14 PM   #600
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Do they just fade away?

I for one have a closed mind; I am unwilling to consider the hypothesis that the earth is flat. My bad.
Yes, but how many believe the moon orbits the earth in a elliptical circle ( or the Earth, the Sun, or any planet around any planet)? The "Holy Grail" is the "Holy Grail" and is a goblet? Jesus was an only son? or that He had children? Lightening comes from the sky? All rivers in America run South? I could go on and on....

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 

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