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Old 12-22-2008, 11:35 AM   #476
raul rodrigo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

JOE:

If there is no "thought of winning or losing," then what place is there for the idea of competition as the way to improve one's aikido? What in the end do we compete against? Each other? Chiba likes to say that in practice we do not try to destroy uke, it is the ego that we are trying to extinguish--ours and uke's.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 11:35 AM   #477
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
...realism can be trained....
Maybe it can, but I'd think maybe in a different venue. For instance, In Marine Corps bootcamp, one of the things they did was, I walked into a room, there is a table and a chair and an M16 laying on the table. I was told to sit down and dis-assemble the M16. As soon as I sat down, the lights went out and they lit a whole pack of firecrackers at each end of the table and started yelling at me to hurry. Well the first time I couldn't even hardly move, but I (we) quicky learned to ignore the commotion and use the light from the firecrackers to dis-assemble and re-assemble the weapon.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 11:40 AM   #478
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
....Do we need to shift or evolve the core foundations, values, or philsophy of aikido to accomplish this? that is evolve it? No, not at all!
If any facet of Aikido can be improved, then it has room to evolve.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 11:42 AM   #479
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Still, all that there boils down to can your MA defeat that 6'2" 240lb MMA monster punk on steriods or that hardened felon on Crank/PCP who stands before you that wants to take you out? Are you comfortable with your MA to fight anybody, anytime, anywhere?
Uh, you are kidding, right?

If I worked in law enforcement, maybe the 2nd one would be a priority. In today's US and many other places, neither of those scenarios is valid for most of us. The odd thing can happen, and your best bet there is:

a) carry and be able to deploy and use a weapon
b) evade, and escape

I won't mention avoid the situation since it's obvious.

You can gain a lot from mixing it up with MMA and other variations on the sparring theme/meme. Nothing wrong with that, done safely. But I fail to understand any call for living life in a state of paranoia. It just doesn't make sense to me for 95% of the people doing MMA, Kung Fu, or Aikido. Even MMA has weight classes...so...while you can likely learn to overcome in say, 90% of the people in your weight class, the bigger, well trained or determined opponant is still ... just that.

Best,
Ron (don't bring a knife to a gun fight)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 12-22-2008, 11:53 AM   #480
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
quote wrote:
Another reason for learning only a part of a bujutsu system is simply time. We are not warriors 24 hours a day now.
I know alot of practitioners of the MA of Gun-do who'd disagree with that. They believe that you should always be on alert(i.e. we ARE warriors 24/7). We use a color code system of awareness: code white is total oblivion, code yellow is partially on the alert, code orange is more on alert and code red is imminent danger. We believe we should be in code yellow all the time and that's at home, armed, with a alarm system and a dog. When we walk out the door, we're in code yellow/orange, depending where we are. Code red is when we're being confronted. Unfortunately, most folks walk around in code white. In addition to that is mindset: our frame of mind at all times and is about being aware of our surroundings and recognize potential problems. Basically it's " be friendly to everyone, but have a plan to kill them".

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 11:58 AM   #481
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Really what is being discussed is the evolution of martial art that have become archic, and of little use in society. We are looking back at the evolutionary tree and debating its evolution when it already has evolved. Therefore, we has humans who do these art must focus on the efforts to keep evolving the philosophy of the arts from brutal violent combat thinking to that which will fit and coinside with modern society and not de-elvolve to fuedalism thinking.
Interesting post, Buck. Do you think there was some "pre-adaptation" in Japanese martial traditions to incorporate Japanese aesthetic and religious elements during the time those traditions still were battlefield traditions?

For example, the popular image, I believe, is that the Samurai found zazen an attractive practice (due, perhaps, to both its "effectiveness" and its "popularization" as a type of Buddhism in feudal Japan); in turn, the practice of zazen influenced their martial philosphy.

So, the branching occurred when martial traditions that were "pre-adapted" to incorporate spiritual and philosophical traditions became less useful on the battlefield?

There is room for some irony in this kind of chronology, because the evolutionary "branching" occurred after the evolutionary pressure of "do or die" on the battlefield lessened.

Sport or budo; both are aesthetic elaborations that occureed as martial traditions discovered new rationale for their continued existence -- e.g., education and self improvement.

Thanks for the post.

David
 
Old 12-22-2008, 12:40 PM   #482
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

[quotye=GeneC]Still, all that there boils down to can your MA defeat that 1.) 6'2" 240lb MMA monster punk on steriods or 2.) that hardened felon on Crank/PCP who stands before you that wants to take you out? Are you comfortable with your MA to fight anybody, anytime, anywhere?[/quote]

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Uh, you are kidding, right?Best,
Ron (don't bring a knife to a gun fight)
Nope, Not kidding at all. Fact is, 99% of the time, if you ever had to use your MA on the street , it'd be up against "1" or "2". My point is , if you're not completely confidant your MA would handle ANY siutation, it's not comlplete and has room to evolve.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 01:04 PM   #483
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I've had some encounters on "the street", and it's never been one or two. From what I understand, most attacks are sneak attacks, and not by anyone especially well built or trained. That's been my experience.

Sorry Charlie...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 12-22-2008, 01:22 PM   #484
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Really what is being discussed is the evolution of martial art that have become archic, and of little use in society. We are looking back at the evolutionary tree and debating its evolution when it already has evolved. Therefore, we has humans who do these art must focus on the efforts to keep evolving the philosophy of the arts from brutal violent combat thinking to that which will fit and coinside with modern society and not de-elvolve to fuedalism thinking.
I have to respectfully disagree-As long as humans fight (and they always will) no MA is archaic( especially if the weapon is lost/malfunctions/breaks/becomes ineffective), unless it has stopped evolving (or devolved) and lost it's martial effectiveness. Also, it's assumed Aikido is empty hand, which it isn't ( nor is most MA). True the tree has evolved, but it's not finished evolving. Imo, the next step is to be able to survive in pollution. Imo, the philosophy is the one thing that won't evolve, while the techniques, "methodology"/strategy and MA'ka will.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 01:29 PM   #485
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I've had some encounters on "the street", and it's never been one or two. From what I understand, most attacks are sneak attacks, and not by anyone especially well built or trained. That's been my experience. Sorry Charlie...Best,Ron
Well that's just one person's experience. One has only to study many encounters and see what the statistics are, but my point is, is your MA able to handle any situation? If so, then I guess it's ok, bit if not, it has room to evolve.

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/19...rms-Crime.html

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 01:38 PM   #486
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
You're kidding right? That is the most brutal format I've ever seen. To me, evolution would be to shorten the narrative. it's a LOOONG winded interview. The problem I have with interviews is I have to wade thru a BUUUNCH of personal 'stuff' to find one nugget of something of value that applies to me.
Most gems look like dirty pebbles out of the ground. Titanium is the lightest-toughest-strongest stuff around -- it is extracted from sands. Try sifting that for the good stuff. Takes a trained eye to know what one is looking at. Anybody can see a shiny sparkly that has already been cut and polished -- but then you have to pay for those -- and no cash is any good in this market -- the coin of the realm is payment in kind...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:33 PM   #487
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
If there is no "thought of winning or losing," then what place is there for the idea of competition as the way to improve one's aikido? What in the end do we compete against? Each other? Chiba likes to say that in practice we do not try to destroy uke, it is the ego that we are trying to extinguish--ours and uke's.
The expedient aikido-based response to your question would be to swiftly swing a bokken at your head with a wild kiai as soon as you asked the question. I suspect your thought about the thought of winning or losing would dissipate instantly as you (hopefully) stepped aside and tossed me on my ass

There would be no question about why I was attacking. There would be no wondering which technique you should use. And there would be no room for thoughts about thinking, let alone thoughts about competition points or anything else. That to me is aikido.

Now, I'm not married to the idea "no competition." I suspect that competition can be used as a "skillful means" (to borrow from a different lexicon) to drive some students toward this level of practice; however, I believe it is very treacherous to aikido's philosophical objectives.

It I'm sure that most of us have seen that it can be difficult enough for aikido practice to transcend even the initial "uke"-"nage" duality in what we may consider forms practice, but at least in this model we press students to excel in both the "winner" and the "loser" roles---and for good reasons, of course, that do not glorify "losing." For instance, we are developing sensitivity, we are releasing mental and physical resistance, we are developing physical skill, etc. Only a very confused student would be left with the idea that we are taking turns winning and losing, or---worse---training to lose.

Competition introduces a much more potent duality. It is self-reinforcing and it is very divisive. It creates external goals when we are looking for internal drive. The winners feed on winning, and the losers develop aversion. When competition is on the mind, we see winners and we see losers. This is very much not aikido, at least in my own limited understanding.

In this sense, I very much agree with Chiba Shihan's statement, and I appreciate anyone who will vigorously practice with me so that I can understand all of this better for myself.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:38 PM   #488
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Maybe it can, but I'd think maybe in a different venue. For instance, In Marine Corps bootcamp, one of the things they did was, I walked into a room, there is a table and a chair and an M16 laying on the table. I was told to sit down and dis-assemble the M16. As soon as I sat down, the lights went out and they lit a whole pack of firecrackers at each end of the table and started yelling at me to hurry. Well the first time I couldn't even hardly move, but I (we) quicky learned to ignore the commotion and use the light from the firecrackers to dis-assemble and re-assemble the weapon.
I assume they showed you how to assemble it properly and made sure you clearly understood the Task, Condition, and the Standard prior to doing this correct?

Aikido methodology works much the same way. albeit many schools and don't pressure test there students for various reasons.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #489
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Joe wrote:

Quote:
Competition introduces a much more potent duality. It is self-reinforcing and it is very divisive. It creates external goals when we are looking for internal drive. The winners feed on winning, and the losers develop aversion. When competition is on the mind, we see winners and we see losers. This is very much not aikido, at least in my own limited understanding.
You would think that would be the case, but I have found it to be the exact opposite. In order to get better, you have to work with others both better than you and not as good as you. In BJJ we find that the competition keeps us honest and humble. It also forges us to work closely together.

The only time it matters is when you walk into the ring for the 5 minutes and face a new opponent and you must look at him and then they say "hajime" and it becomes a fight. Winning is important in that instance, but afterward you shake hands, watch the video tape and start training all over again.

I have found the competitoin aspect to not be damaging to the philosophy.

What it does affect is the methodology we train in Aikido to some degree as it requires us to practice in a very deliberate manner in order to learn aiki.

 
Old 12-22-2008, 06:45 PM   #490
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Most gems look like dirty pebbles out of the ground....
Yes, that's all zenzy and fuzzy , but on the other hand, the simplest truth needs no decoration. A single word of truth is larger than a thousand worthless words. The more the words, the smaller the point.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 06:48 PM   #491
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Now, I'm not married to the idea "no competition." I suspect that competition can be used as a "skillful means" (to borrow from a different lexicon) ....
Wondering.... are you into Zen?, if so, what's your opinion about Yamaoka Tesshu's Tachigiri No Seigan:

"The disciples of Yamaoka made a vow to engage in the following progressive training:

1st stage- Two day commitment to engage in 200 contests per day, alone, and without stopping against 20 opponents who are permitted to rest and attack in rotation. Prior to committing to the 1 st stage, the disciple had to carry out the training for 1000 days without fail.

2nd stage - Three day commitment - same as above.

3rd stage - 7 day commitment - same as above.

4th stage - 1000 days training without stopping, from 4 am to 8 pm each day, competing against 100 opponents per day."

Source: An Introduction for a Round Table Talk about Zen and Aikido Training, by T. K. Chiba, 8th dan
 
Old 12-22-2008, 06:54 PM   #492
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I assume they showed you how to assemble it properly and made sure you clearly understood the Task, Condition, and the Standard prior to doing this correct?

Aikido methodology works much the same way. albeit many schools and don't pressure test there students for various reasons.
Well we took 'em apart and reassembled a few times and they asked if anybody thought they had it, but no, we didn't discuss "task, condition or standard", per se. We just had to know how to field strip them real good( I guess the point was a dirty gun gets you dead). The point in question here was how to train to instil keeping a cool head under pressure. That was just an example.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:02 PM   #493
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Wondering.... are you into Zen?, if so, what's your opinion about Yamaoka Tesshu's Tachigiri No Seigan:

"The disciples of Yamaoka made a vow to engage in the following progressive training:

1st stage- Two day commitment to engage in 200 contests per day, alone, and without stopping against 20 opponents who are permitted to rest and attack in rotation. Prior to committing to the 1 st stage, the disciple had to carry out the training for 1000 days without fail.

2nd stage - Three day commitment - same as above.

3rd stage - 7 day commitment - same as above.

4th stage - 1000 days training without stopping, from 4 am to 8 pm each day, competing against 100 opponents per day."

Source: An Introduction for a Round Table Talk about Zen and Aikido Training, by T. K. Chiba, 8th dan
Now I'd have to see that to believe it. I wonder if he had any students left.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:11 PM   #494
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

The post wasn't directed at you, Gene.

Why aren't you working on your "evolved" McAikido (want fries with your hakama?) and let the people discuss about martial arts.

BTW, I still waiting for you at BS forums... You're not backing from a good fight, isn't it, marine?
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:17 PM   #495
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
If there is no "thought of winning or losing," then what place is there for the idea of competition as the way to improve one's aikido? What in the end do we compete against? Each other?
Of course there's going to be that thinking, but the goal is what I call the "truth in thought" - meaning to clear the mind and prepare it for the battle ahead.

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Chiba likes to say that in practice we do not try to destroy uke, it is the ego that we are trying to extinguish--ours and uke's.
Sure, obviously Aikido is destructive( so there's no denying that), but they just didn't want Uke's getting hurt (or Aikido'd die), so they picked that.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-22-2008 at 07:27 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:21 PM   #496
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The post wasn't directed at you, Gene.

Why aren't you working on your "evolved" McAikido (want fries with your hakama?) and let the people discuss about martial arts.

BTW, I still waiting for you at BS forums... You're not backing from a good fight, isn't it, marine?
I don't do "BS"( I thought this was the BS forum with you), but if you're challenging me, sure I'm always open to a good challenge, when and where? Btw, all posts are open to the public, if you want privacy, that's what PM is for.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-22-2008 at 07:23 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:29 PM   #497
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I don't do "BS", but if you're challenging me, sure I'm always open to a good challenge, when and where?
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/
PM me here when you're ready.

Quote:
Btw, all posts are open to the public, if you want privacy, that's what PM is for.
I'm not looking for privacy, I'm looking for a decent signal to noise ratio, so what is needed is you not trolling this forum, not me PM'ing Mr Parland.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 07:55 PM   #498
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You would think that would be the case, but I have found it to be the exact opposite. In order to get better, you have to work with others both better than you and not as good as you. In BJJ we find that the competition keeps us honest and humble. It also forges us to work closely together.

The only time it matters is when you walk into the ring for the 5 minutes and face a new opponent and you must look at him and then they say "hajime" and it becomes a fight. Winning is important in that instance, but afterward you shake hands, watch the video tape and start training all over again.

I have found the competitoin aspect to not be damaging to the philosophy.

What it does affect is the methodology we train in Aikido to some degree as it requires us to practice in a very deliberate manner in order to learn aiki.
I appreciate this point of view very much, and pretty much concur with everything. My issue, though, is exactly with that five minutes between the hajime and the yame.

Philosophically speaking---not necessarily to be confused with practically speaking ---when I settle in, ready to begin this match, I am looking at an opponent, an adversary, an opponent. I'm looking at someone I must defeat, and I see that he will try to defeat me. The intensity of the encounter---all of the adrenaline and such---I suspect, amplify this aspect of the bout in the mind. (Here, I'm thinking about Threadgill's two-part essay.)

Again philosophically speaking (as I understand aikido philosophy, fwiw), I should not train my mind either to see an adversary or to assume his intent. Yes, I can see clearly someone swinging a bokken at my head; but, I can also do this without deciding that this is someone I must defeat. I want to train to deal with that without bringing other assumptions to the encounter. Consider: I do not know this is a bad guy. He may be attacking someone behind me who's trying to kill me. He may have stumbled and this looks like an attack. Who knows? Seeing blanks and filling them in will pre-condition and interfere with a natural, spontaneous response.

In the Army, however, I understood that the drill sergeants wanted to up my aggression, desensitize me to killing (silhouette targets pop-up rather than people with faces, for instance), instill immediate action and adherence to chain of command, build unit cohesion, and so forth. I loved the obstacle courses, the team confidence courses, the road marches, and all. Platoon vs platoon, company vs company, and other rivalries were fun and certainly had their purposes, which I understood and appreciated. I just see a philosophical difference between the sport / military point of view and the aikido point of view.

I'll reiterate, though, that I believe using competition to enhance aikido is possible, but I suspect it's very unlikely to produce the correct result. I don't believe I've met very many instructors whom I'd trust to pull it off.

Naturally, though, all of this assumes that my understanding is correct---in the sense of more aligned with the founder's point of view. I recognize that this may not be true, so I welcome the discussion

 
Old 12-22-2008, 08:00 PM   #499
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/
PM me here when you're ready.
Gong Sao!!!

Let me know if you fellows do land over there. I'm "Ordinary Joe" on Bullshido, but I don't check in very often unless someone lets me know there's an event

 
Old 12-22-2008, 08:04 PM   #500
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Gong Sao!!!

Let me know if you fellows do land over there. I'm "Ordinary Joe" on Bullshido, but I don't check in very often unless someone lets me know there's an event
LOL!

I'm DCS over there.
 

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