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Old 12-16-2008, 10:01 PM   #51
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Morgan I'm not saying aikido techniques don't work ...... Its all to do with how they are applied and when....... Against a single assailant they have a good chance of working...... the other thing you forget is that when people who are "high" on some illegal substance their pain tolerance increases and they [u]will[u] resist, you can bet your life on that!!...... Sadly many years ago I actually broke someones wrist when a punter got nasty with me and I just knew that no matter what I tried to do to placate him he was going to take my head off and grabbed my jacket to lump me one.....
I took his left wrist and arm into a wakigatamae/hijijime lock which he managed to worm out of so I just changed to a hard kotegaeshi which I know broke it as I definitely felt something "go" yet it took sometime of wrestling around the outside of the cab before I managed to take him down with a gyaku gamae ate/sokumen iriminage which gave me enough time to get in my cab and drive off quickly.......
What I do feel is that aikidoka who only practice with a compliant partner all the time...... really miss the point so they will never know what it could possibly be like in a real self defence experience...... As long as those that practice without resistance realise this I have no problems...... Its the delusional practitioners that have the problem as I see it.......
Tony
I understand what you are saying completely. And in Suenaka-Ha Testsugaku-Ho Aikido we train very much for the purpose of self defense; that is our main goal in studying. Of course the spiritual side comes into play, but i definitly get my Uke's to resist and use strength/ force/ speed regularly.

But i know what you mean about the druggies; thats why koky-nage/ shihonage/ and ikkyo are so great, because they dont even have to feel pain because you are LEADING them, where they like it or not, or wether they are coherant or not .

And I am becoming particularly fond of ikkyo lately

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:06 PM   #52
GeneC
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
So people with real intent dont feel pail? How would just such a "thug" not be able to be led just like any other? I dont quite understand how he wouldnt be effected by an ikkyo or shiho-nage. The techniques work. That is why we study to become proficient at them. Aikido IS to be able to transition, to take your atackers energy, to lead, to inflict a level of pain attuned to there level of aggression. Aikido is not moves that simply look pretty. It is meant to HURT when you need it to.
As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:16 PM   #53
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.
It is definitly not impossible to lead your opponent even if they do not over-extend. But if he IS on some kind of drug, he's going to be "out of it" atleast a little bit, so dont you think that would make him more likely to be sloppy and over-extend? And the steroids thing, sure that would make him stronger( depending on the amount of time of usage) but it wouldnt make him invinsible or not feel pain. And yes, if he has a shotgun, im screwed(unless he gets within arms reach); if he has a buddy and they both have knives, im screwed; but if he is a trained martial artist, and has been studying for atleast several years to be worth some apprehension, then why would he be jumping me in the back of an ally(but maybe thats a question for another time?)?

And i dont know about your style of Aikido, but in my style, a good shihonage with proper Kuzushi is probably going to atleast knock out the guy, or at worst cave in the back of his skull and result in a dislocated sholder; and a properly executed Ikkyo will slam his face into the pavement resulting in a prime opportunity for you to either submit him and call the cops, or just break an arm/ kick him in the face and knock him out/ etc. etc. Do you see what im saying? Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.

rei,
-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 12-19-2008, 10:23 AM   #54
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
As said before, a hardened felon is likely to be on some kind of drug and feel no pain and is not likely to punch thru you or over-extend, which'd be required 'to be led' (anyway, you should be prepared that they don't), right? A good fighter knows to keep a solid center as well. Besides, the more experienced hardened institutionalized felons on steriods and PCP (the worst case scenario ones we train for) will not stand there and go toe to toe with you. Their plan is more likely the shock and awe with pipes and chains or a gun and a partner. I don't know about you, but if he has a knife, I'm not going to be reaching for it. I intend on keeping my digits, etc.
Also, say you do an Ikkyo or Shihonage, then what? You think that's gonna end the fight? I'm pretty sure it won't. You have to be prepared to 'take him out' or kill them to stop them.
Ask a Shodokan player and they will agree with you on that one ..... well I'm sure most would !
As for weapons .... well that's a tall order and if there is an opening to get out of it........ run!! .....If you can or put as much between them and you so that it makes it difficult as possible to get close to you unless you can even up the odds?.....
As for doing ikkyo or shihonage .......well try it on someone who has fighting experience, a knife and you will find it almost impossible...... unless he uses a "sword" movement which most of aikido is based on...... and that is pretty unlikely!!

I think Clarence brings up some powerful argument here and this is evident in his experence in life...... I have been practising aikido since 1974 hard and rergularly three times a week, weekends, plus Winter, Summer gasshuku for ten years solid in my early career in aikido and that at great expense!! It probably results in thousands of hours practice and I see it as addition to my self defence knowledge, not the all and be all, which I think some aikidoka have a problem with..... With all the aikido world's sprirtual and harmonious talk it seems to set the precedence on how it is taught?,,,,,, and to be honest my experience of traditional aikdoka is that they all seem to have something to prove? (well most of the ones I have met do)..... in a strange and almost denial kind of way that other attacks actually exist? Other than traditional attacks!!

How they would deal with an attack with shihonage or ikkyo tells me something .........that they haven't been in many real fights....... if at all!!
But that's just my opinion and I am entitled to that.....I'm going by what little I do know and I do know that the majority of aikido waza taught as they are taught in most dojo, without resistance, will not stand up to real situations ....... sorry!!
Tony
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:19 PM   #55
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

[ Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.

[/quote]

In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:22 PM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

...and they may have no concern for their own well being too! Tony I always enjoy your pragmatic view!

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Old 12-19-2008, 11:25 PM   #57
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
[ Sure there are a thousand what-if's, but i believe Aikido to work in most normal self defense situations.
In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony[/quote]

Where i live, a normal self-defense situation is pretty much anything goes except weapons. Most people dont carry one around; except me, i always have my trusty Gerber knife on me (and a rather large combat knife in my car)

And i dont particularly find shiho-nage very practical for me either. But I completely dissagree with your take on the effective applications of Ikkyo; i think it is one of the easiest to use(next to sankyo for me). But then maybe our styles differ some on the technique in a way makes you discard its usefullness?
Not sure.

And im also not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore.

I find that theoretically (having never been assaulted by a drunk/ steroid user/ or anyone on drugs, and especially not PCP) Ikkyo works quite well. And i have ALSO tested it in class many times; most recently on a 5' 3" 350 lb man who recently joined our Dojo, and it worked quite nicely on him as well (just make sure and get Shikaku before he can grab you ; and also on various other people i have come across, including a few so called MMA'ers.

All im saying is that i believe in what i am studying, and in the linneage and training of my Sensei, and in the head of the organization i belong to, Sensei Roy Y. Suenaka. And i believe in what they teach.

rei,
morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:39 AM   #58
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Quote:
Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
In all honesty Morgan what is a "normal" self defence situation?
I have never been in a "normal" self defence situation, in fact they have always been without warning and are very tricky and there are no absolutes as far as my experience has found.......
People on drink or drugs or a mixture of both can turn very nasty in a flash and can be extremely nasty and vicious without any concern for your well being...... you either take 'em out as fast as possible or suffer the consequences..... hopefully without doing anything extreme!! But that much depends on how much they want to cause you harm!! That has been my lot where things of this nature crop up and they occur right across the spectrum regardless of social standing! And being a cabbie you have no "back up" you are on your own!!
There are no absolutes.......
Tony
Where i live, a normal self-defense situation is pretty much anything goes except weapons. Most people dont carry one around; except me, i always have my trusty Gerber knife on me (and a rather large combat knife in my car)

And i dont particularly find shiho-nage very practical for me either. But I completely dissagree with your take on the effective applications of Ikkyo; i think it is one of the easiest to use(next to sankyo for me). But then maybe our styles differ some on the technique in a way makes you discard its usefullness?
Not sure.

And im also not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore.

I find that theoretically (having never been assaulted by a drunk/ steroid user/ or anyone on drugs, and especially not PCP) Ikkyo works quite well. And i have ALSO tested it in class many times; most recently on a 5' 3" 350 lb man who recently joined our Dojo, and it worked quite nicely on him as well (just make sure and get Shikaku before he can grab you ; and also on various other people i have come across, including a few so called MMA'ers.

All im saying is that i believe in what i am studying, and in the linneage and training of my Sensei, and in the head of the organization i belong to, Sensei Roy Y. Suenaka. And i believe in what they teach.

rei,
morgan[/quote]

If thats fine for you Morgan then who am I to say what is right and what is wrong for you? All I know is what I know and I don't carry a blade in my cab or on my person as that would be tantamount to carrying a weapon with intent as far as the law in the UK is concerned!!
But I do carry a tanbo which I made from a busted jo of hard oak, which I can tell you has come in very handy on a couple of occassions!!
It is a choice of last resort and does even up the odds if a punter happens to be carrying a blade on their person, which I have experienced!! I can tell you now it was a very hairy, scary experience and one I would rather not encounter again, thank you very much!! Did I shit myself? Yes but I would'nt have stood a chance without my trusty home made tanbo....... I can tell you now that when him and his mates ran off shouting "f...k him!!" A rush of sudden relief and shakes from the adrenaline was quite welcome!!
As for the fare no bloody chance!!

And as for shiho nage ...... all for dreamers but nice to practice...... ikkyo maybe if your attacker has a funny hand chopping afflliction!!???
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:51 AM   #59
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
...and they may have no concern for their own well being too! Tony I always enjoy your pragmatic view!
Actually Kevin they dont!! ...... until a swift bang around the nut shakes 'em to the core!! No they dont like getting hurt!! but as you say when you have to deal with wolf pack mentality you have no choice..... and do they care for their own safety? Apparently not when they have tried to jump out of the cab when moving at speed!!
So when working at night I always make sure the anti runner/child safety locks are on and no one can get out!!...... except me.....
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:32 AM   #60
gregg block
 
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Anthony,
I agree with your posts here 100%. Good luck doing shiho. on someone who knows how to fight. When you can't reason with or run ;Atemi, Atemi,Atemi,Atemi,Atemi and did I mention Atemi!

Last edited by gregg block : 12-20-2008 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:52 AM   #61
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

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Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Toni,
I agree with your posts here 100%. Good luck doing shiho. on someone who knows how to fight. When you can't reason with or run ;Atemi, Atemi,Atemi,Atemi,Atemi and did I mention Atemi!
Chuckle

Take care Gregg,
Nice of you to say so but everyone to their own....... I think its best to go with ones own experience...... after all its all one has !! ha ha!
Its surprising what you can tweek out of people
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:02 AM   #62
mwible
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post

If thats fine for you Morgan then who am I to say what is right and what is wrong for you? All I know is what I know and I don't carry a blade in my cab or on my person as that would be tantamount to carrying a weapon with intent as far as the law in the UK is concerned!!
But I do carry a tanbo which I made from a busted jo of hard oak, which I can tell you has come in very handy on a couple of occassions!!
It is a choice of last resort and does even up the odds if a punter happens to be carrying a blade on their person, which I have experienced!! I can tell you now it was a very hairy, scary experience and one I would rather not encounter again, thank you very much!! Did I shit myself? Yes but I would'nt have stood a chance without my trusty home made tanbo....... I can tell you now that when him and his mates ran off shouting "f...k him!!" A rush of sudden relief and shakes from the adrenaline was quite welcome!!
As for the fare no bloody chance!!

And as for shiho nage ...... all for dreamers but nice to practice...... ikkyo maybe if your attacker has a funny hand chopping afflliction!!???
\

Haha, a funny hand chopping affliction

But yeah, its a bit different here in the U.S., with the second Amendment to our constitution, we hold the right to carry/ own arms. So i exercise my right every day with my Gerber

And that is very lucky that you had a weapon of your own in just such a situation.

And i agree, i would never use Shiho-nage unless something crazy happened and my attacker just kinda fell into it (but when does that happen?), haha.

But im a bit more agressive with my self defense and the application of Aikido, in a purely self defense situation(never to attack), if i need to grab an arm/ wrist to effect a lock (such as Ikkyo) then i am alllll for it.

Good talking with you.

in aiki,
morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:12 AM   #63
gregg block
 
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Re: What comes after Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Chuckle

Take care Gregg,
Nice of you to say so but everyone to their own....... I think its best to go with ones own experience...... after all its all one has !! ha ha!
Its surprising what you can tweek out of people
I am going with my own experience, thats why I agree with you. Your opinon(s) are not unique, just seem acurate to me based on my own experiences
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