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Old 12-17-2008, 10:34 PM   #351
GeneC
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
If I'm remembering right, I've read that as a young man he was very competitive and that his competitive attitude shifted over time toward the masakatsu agatsu concept. Assuming those aren't exagerations or misinterpretations, I think it was his intensity and focus which allowed him to do those amazing things more than any sense of external competition, though that certainly can drive a person very far all on its own.
On the other hand, I play many "competitive" sports and at first glance would probably be described as a pretty competitive person because I try very hard when I'm playing them. It might just be semantics, but I wouldn't describe myself as very competitive...most of the time.
Yet, here he is, well into his 80's and could talk about anything he wanted to, but instead of talking about Shinto or Omoto or Masakatsu agatsu, he talked about how he's never been beaten and could carry 1200lbs, Wonder why he'd choose that if that wasn't the most important thing to him even at that age, Not to mention the rice cake deal. AFA competitive, it's not semantics. A truly competitive person is simply one that will find/instigate/engage in a competition in virtually everything they do. Whatever they do, they feel the need to be the best, as in better than everyone else doing the same thing.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 11:33 PM   #352
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
A truly competitive person is simply one that will find/instigate/engage in a competition in virtually everything they do. Whatever they do, they feel the need to be the best, as in better than everyone else doing the same thing.
Definitely a training point worth reflecting upon.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:53 PM   #353
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Could be he was bring up the fact that he was strong and could fight to let everyone know that he had transcended the physicality and yet still was happy and vibrant.

 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:00 AM   #354
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Definitely a training point worth reflecting upon.
"The principle of shodo-o-seisu helps one have a deeper understanding of O'Sensei's teaching of masakatsu agatsu or "true victory is victory over oneself." If you calmly maintain control over yourself, you will not only find a way to control the opponent but will also be able to control the situation before drastic action is necessary. There will be no need to consider winning or losing, since there will be no contest. Both sides will be winners — the would-be attacker who didn't need to attack and the would-be defender who didn't need to defend. "

Truly Aikido evolving.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:07 AM   #355
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Timely release on AikidoJournal.com

Quote:
Chiba Shihan wrote:
These days there is more diversity. Some people do it for health, others for the philosophical or spiritual aspects—all of these are good.

The important issue today, however, is that if you think of aikido as a tree, it has to be made very clear who is going to take the role of the leaves and branches and who is going to take the role of the roots and trunk. As long as there are people taking the roles of roots and trunk then the tree remains solid and healthy, and branches and leaves will appear. Then there’s nothing to worry about. People should keep this in mind and avoid insisting that aikido shouldn’t be the way it is now. Leaves are leaves and branches are branches, and these are fine in and of themselves. They’re parts of the tree. The question is who is going to take responsibility for maintaining the roots and the trunk?

In principle I think there is no old or new in budo. We have the word “kobudo,” which literally means “old budo.” It’s logical opposite would be “shinbudo,” or “new budo,” but we don’t actually use such a word in Japanese, do we? The modern trend is for new budo to become sport-oriented. It’s probably okay to call these sports “new forms of budo,” but in the traditional way of thinking sports really don’t qualify as budo.

It’s very difficult to say to what extent these things are to be considered budo. But to my way of thinking, there is no doubt that budo is what forms the roots of aikido. The branches and leaves grow out of that. All the other elements—aikido as “an art of living,” as a means to better health, as calisthenics or a physical aesthetic pursuit—all of these stem from a common root, which is budo. That they do so is perfectly fine, but the point is that they’re not the root themselves. O-Sensei always stressed that “Aikido is budo” and “Budo is aikido’s source of power.” If we forget this then aikido will mutate into something else—a so-called “art of living” or something more akin to yoga.
The beginning of Stanley Pranin's interview has Chiba Shihan talking about his quest for budo after having his judo ass handed to him (lexicon from this thread, not the interview ) by a shodan kendo fellow in a kendo-based competition...

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-18-2008 at 12:14 AM. Reason: added information

 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:15 AM   #356
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Yet, here he is, well into his 80's and could talk about anything he wanted to, but instead of talking about Shinto or Omoto or Masakatsu agatsu, he talked about how he's never been beaten and could carry 1200lbs, Wonder why he'd choose that if that wasn't the most important thing to him even at that age, Not to mention the rice cake deal.
I don't think his talking about that means it was the most important thing to him at that age. Considering how much time he spent breaking mochi hammers and how much time he spent studying Shinto, I think the Shinto was probably more important to him.

Quote:
AFA competitive, it's not semantics. A truly competitive person is simply one that will find/instigate/engage in a competition in virtually everything they do. Whatever they do, they feel the need to be the best, as in better than everyone else doing the same thing.
I get what a competitive person is. My remarks about semantics had to do with how people might describe the personal example I gave; how people might describe a non-competitive person taking part in "competitive" activities.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:29 AM   #357
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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"The principle of shodo-o-seisu helps one have a deeper understanding of O'Sensei's teaching of masakatsu agatsu or "true victory is victory over oneself." If you calmly maintain control over yourself, you will not only find a way to control the opponent but will also be able to control the situation before drastic action is necessary. There will be no need to consider winning or losing, since there will be no contest. Both sides will be winners — the would-be attacker who didn't need to attack and the would-be defender who didn't need to defend. "

Truly Aikido evolving.
But isn't this already a part of Aikido?

...I think I'm confused by what you mean by evolving, sorry.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-18-2008, 08:44 AM   #358
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
AFA competitive, it's not semantics. A truly competitive person is simply one that will find/instigate/engage in a competition in virtually everything they do. Whatever they do, they feel the need to be the best, as in better than everyone else doing the same thing.
And as such, this illustrates a compulsion -- showing the person has not mastered himself so as to allow someone else to win -- to get to something more important than winning in the immediate sense. Always looking for the "win," is a very sure way to simply die in true bujutsu. Among other things showing that it is not a truly martial attitude -- it is trivially predictable.

In true bujutsu, and also in its enlarged sense as budo, the objective is larger than the immediate engagement and planned, or allowably contingent, losses have strategic purposes in achieving larger goals. A chess game is won by carefully losing pawns and handing tempting pieces to the opponent that he "wins" -- the battle, but not the war. This is what Aikido training is for -- in small and large scales of budo, and in dimensions beyond physical confrontation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 09:31 AM   #359
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
In true bujutsu, and also in its enlarged sense as budo, the objective is larger than the immediate engagement and planned, or allowably contingent, losses have strategic purposes in achieving larger goals. A chess game is won by carefully losing pawns and handing tempting pieces to the opponent that he "wins" -- the battle, but not the war. This is what Aikido training is for -- in small and large scales of budo, and in dimensions beyond physical confrontation.
Any notion of an aikido that has a need to win or an adversary (other than yourself, of course) who needs to be defeated---even if incorporating notions such as sutemi---can still be considered philosophically suspect.

Last edited by Joe McParland : 12-18-2008 at 09:33 AM. Reason: correction

 
Old 12-18-2008, 09:53 AM   #360
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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For someone to profess that only a newby idiot would consider sports, I find proof that Osensei was very competive and engaged in competition to test his techniques, the precursor to sports.
The radio interview you yourself cited made clear that O Sensei's competitive days and of carrying 1200 pounds and pounding the mochi were in his youth, well before the war, and long before his revelation of aikido. When he speaks of "household treasure" (I can't quite make out his spoken words in this portion as the audio is terrible) the proverbial term for "household treasure" in Japanese is takara 宝, which is an image of precious jade under the roof or in the house -- something you preserve, polish and defend -- not something you go out and win. Other words for "treasure" use the same kanji in the compound or have the same connotation, of something of value possessed in a protected or concealed way, [e.g. -- hizou 秘蔵] rather than the display of competition.

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
He then professes that Aikido is about Misogi. Misogi? The Shinto ritual of cleansing? You can agree with that if you want, ...
The OId Man said it -- not Szczepan.

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Martially relavent could be throwing rocks at your enemy or slapping them, as it IS fighting, but not very effective and so, not very applicable, which is directy related to it's effectiveness ( assuming you're choosing to win the conflict).
As opposed to choosing to end the conflict -- which are not at all the same things. Winning doesn't necessarily end the conflict. Destroying the enemy doesn't end the conflict -- it typically enlarges it -- ask the Hatfields and McCoys. Ending conflict as a category is Aikido, (and true budo of every stripe) -- winning a incident of conflict is not, as such.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 10:57 AM   #361
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

[quote=Joe McParland;221324]Timely release on AikidoJournal.com
QUOTE]

Joe, Thanks for posting this.

DH
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:17 AM   #362
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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..I think I'm confused by what you mean by evolving, sorry.
Very simple- adapting to improve to survive.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:17 AM   #363
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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Truly Aikido evolving.
Or remaining itself, as the case may be.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:33 AM   #364
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Timely release on AikidoJournal.comThe beginning of Stanley Pranin's interview has Chiba Shihan talking about his quest for budo after having his judo ass handed to him (lexicon from this thread, not the interview ) by a shodan kendo fellow in a kendo-based competition...
Sorry, I don't see a point here except that Chiba Shihan felt Judo martially ineffective when a Kendo expert beat him with a weapon. Imo, this is rightly so. While Judo is a great sport, it's martially ineffective. Part of my point in continuing this discussion is to be honest and accurate, particularly when discussing the martial effectiveness of a MA. From what I can gather the "older generation" ( meaning the first generation uchidesi of Osensei) mostly agree that Aikido should be martially effective and has 'devolved' away from that.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:46 AM   #365
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Re: masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

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And as such, this illustrates a compulsion -- showing the person has not mastered himself so as to allow someone else to win -- to get to something more important than winning in the immediate sense. Always looking for the "win," is a very sure way to simply die in true bujutsu. Among other things showing that it is not a truly martial attitude -- it is trivially predictable.

In true bujutsu, and also in its enlarged sense as budo, the objective is larger than the immediate engagement and planned, or allowably contingent, losses have strategic purposes in achieving larger goals. A chess game is won by carefully losing pawns and handing tempting pieces to the opponent that he "wins" -- the battle, but not the war. This is what Aikido training is for -- in small and large scales of budo, and in dimensions beyond physical confrontation.
I'm just observing the Osensei was a very competitive individual and engaged in competition all his life, so much so that even in his 80's he boasted of never been beaten (so I guess he never mastered himself), which to me means Aikido was meant to be a competitive MA. Also, the plain truth is, in a confrontation with skilled opponent, if you don't take them out, they're gonna kill you., so all that chess business flies right out the window.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:59 AM   #366
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I don't buy your description of Ueshiba as an elderly man. Your data is way too thin and your characterization way too predominate.

But, hey, it's your dime.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:08 PM   #367
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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The radio interview you yourself cited made clear that O Sensei's competitive days and of carrying 1200 pounds and pounding the mochi were in his youth, well before the war, and long before his revelation of aikido.
Well it's not just the radio incident, but I will always take the fact that even in his 80's, when he could use that little amount of time in that radio interview to talk about anything he wanted( he was very accustomed to public speaking), he chose to talk about never been beaten and about his physical prowess.but the rice cake deal and several Uchidesi said there was always competitions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The OId Man said it -- not Szczepan.
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
You may like it or no, but Founder meant aikido as misogi, and aikido techniques are tools to achieve this goal. What systema or bjj have to do with misogi? - nothing at all. These arts have simply different goals, so in reality their techniques will develop bad conditioning in the body and mind of aikidoka. Not for nothing Founder got very angry when his uchideshi used judo techniques instead aikido techniques during a class.
That's the first place I saw it.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
As opposed to choosing to end the conflict -- which are not at all the same things. Winning doesn't necessarily end the conflict. Destroying the enemy doesn't end the conflict -- it typically enlarges it -- ask the Hatfields and McCoys. Ending conflict as a category is Aikido, (and true budo of every stripe) -- winning a incident of conflict is not, as such.
Sure it does..when confronted wth a skilled fighter, either you beat him down or he beats you down( and maybe kills you or maybe just leaves you a quadriplegic), it's that simple.
So to keep this topic related, the point is Aikido is either Martially effective ( to be called a MA) or it isn't and imo, needs to evolve to be( again, if it's going to be a MA). Otherwise it's just an 'art of spiritual realization'.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:11 PM   #368
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Sorry, I don't see a point here except that Chiba Shihan felt Judo martially ineffective when a Kendo expert beat him with a weapon.
Quote:
Chiba Shihan wrote:
These days there is more diversity. Some people do it for health, others for the philosophical or spiritual aspectsóall of these are good. ....

In principle I think there is no old or new in budo. We have the word "kobudo," which literally means "old budo." It's logical opposite would be "shinbudo," or "new budo," but we don't actually use such a word in Japanese, do we? The modern trend is for new budo to become sport-oriented. It's probably okay to call these sports "new forms of budo," but in the traditional way of thinking sports really don't qualify as budo. ....

????
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:19 PM   #369
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I don't buy your description of Ueshiba as an elderly man. Your data is way too thin and your characterization way too predominate.But, hey, it's your dime.
Sorry Dave, but what description? My data? So you don't believe that was Osensei talking on that radio interview? Hmmm...

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:20 PM   #370
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Ahhhh Chiba Shihan...Another clear voice in the wilderness of interpretation.

Thanks for the posts Mr. Henderson. Chiba Shihan says it far better than most (especially me LOL)

William Hazen
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:28 PM   #371
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Quote:
Chiba Shihan wrote:
These days there is more diversity. Some people do it for health, others for the philosophical or spiritual aspectsÕ¬ll of these are good. ....In principle I think there is no old or new in budo. We have the word "kobudo," which literally means "old budo." It's logical opposite would be "shinbudo," or "new budo," but we don't actually use such a word in Japanese, do we? The modern trend is for new budo to become sport-oriented. It's probably okay to call these sports "new forms of budo," but in the traditional way of thinking sports really don't qualify as budo. ....????
So now we're talking about why folks do it today...for what reason? To show that Aikdo has devolved from being Martially effective and 'expanded' to be a fitness/spiritual program. And whether there's a Japanese word for a concept means what? I'm not Japanese, I'm American and I have words to describe this, but my point here is, Oensei was very competitive and competed frequently to test and evolve his techniques that would become Aikido. Imo, it's our responsibility to continue that tradition and so further evolve Aikidio. Competition really has nothing to do with Budo. Competition's for testing a technique to ensure that it's martially effective. The Budo comes in on the spiritual side of Aikido.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:29 PM   #372
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Sorry Dave, but what description? My data? So you don't believe that was Osensei talking on that radio interview? Hmmm...
1. Your description -- Ueshiba was, even as an elderly man, first and foremost a competitive person, as opposed to someone who had mastered that aspect of themselves and was trying to impart a different message, one suggested by several other posters. That description.

2. Your data. You say, for example, this thread is the first place you've ever run into the idea of Aikido as misogi practice, even though it is one of O'sensei's more famous notions.

3. Your conclusion. Straw men burn easy, don't they. So what?
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:36 PM   #373
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So now we're talking about why folks do it today...for what reason? To show that Aikdo has devolved from being Martially effective and 'expanded' to be a fitness/spiritual program. And whether there's a Japanese word for a concept means what? I'm not Japanese, I'm American and I have words to describe this, but my point here is, Oensei was very competitive and competed frequently to test and evolve his techniques that would become Aikido. Imo, it's our responsibility to continue that tradition and so further evolve Aikidio. Competition really has nothing to do with Budo. Competition's for testing a technique to ensure that it's martially effective. The Budo comes in on the spiritual side of Aikido.
Does Aikdo evolve?

Gene says, yes.

Chiba Shihan, former uchideshi to Ueshiba O'Sensei and one of the pre-eminant Aikido instructors alive today says, "In principle I think there is no old or new in budo."

What is the role of competition?

Gene seems to say -- it's essential to test one's budo.

Chiba Shihan, whose testing of himself in martial situations is close to legendary, says, "The modern trend is for new budo to become sport-oriented. It's probably okay to call these sports "new forms of budo," but in the traditional way of thinking sports really don't qualify as budo."

People are free to believe what ever they want.

People are free to rely on whatever evidence they choose.

I think Chiba Shihan's opinions are highly relevant, and I am surprised you still maintain you are confused as to why.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:41 PM   #374
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Chib Shihan also said this:
"It°«s very difficult to say to what extent these things are to be considered budo. But to my way of thinking, there is no doubt that budo is what forms the roots of aikido. The branches and leaves grow out of that. All the other elements—aikido as °»an art of living,°… as a means to better health, as calisthenics or a physical aesthetic pursuit—all of these stem from a common root, which is budo. That they do so is perfectly fine, but the point is that they°«re not the root themselves. O-Sensei always stressed that °»Aikido is budo°… and °»Budo is aikido°«s source of power.°… If we forget this then aikido will mutate into something else—a so-called °»art of living°… or something more akin to yoga."

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:41 PM   #375
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Martial effectiveness is not a characteristic of any martial art. It's a measure of the capability of the practitioner of a given art. When you divorce the art from those that employ it you render the question of martial effectiveness meaningless.

Ron
 

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