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Old 12-16-2008, 01:01 PM   #326
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote:
OhI don't think he said he saw everyone else's Aikido as "wrong" just not martially effective and what he meant was most of the basic Hombu/Iwama methods of executing certain techniques left you wide open to getting your butt handed to you starting with Irimi. After a few years of practice I saw why he incorporated the sword. Everything is different and it seems to be much better when we follow the practice Philosophy of "Aikido is the Sword" Just start with the basic stance 'The stance of no stance" and hand position which in ours is palm up not palm down.

I don't think we'll evolve to competition it's too dangerous for many different reasons. However Nishio Shihan did feel that if you were going to step on the mat to practice you did it with a "sincere" heart and practiced as hard as you could.

"Sincere Heart through Austure Practice"

Are you in Law Enforcement Clarence?
Oh come now, isn't that the same thing? If it's not martially viable, meaning in a (sword) fight, you'd get dead, then( as a MA) it's wrong. Same as his practice doctrine- practice as real as possible. Isn't that the same as competition? What's that you say? Aikido is too dangerous for competition? Hmmmm.....We have a saying in the gun world- IN a fight you'll fall back on your level of training. Another is perfect practice produces perfect performance, meaning you can practice for hours and hours, but if it's the wrong stuff, it's not helping at all (in fact, it's hurting you).

Btw, no I'm not LE, I'm just a patriotic American exercising my God given 2nd Amendment right and a life long MA practitioner( working on evolving myself). Since studying JKD, I'm driven to participate in evolving MA. For the rest of my life, Aikido (and the gun) is my MA, but if I's ever gonna supplement Aikido with another MA( which I don't see happening, 'cause my OCD will put me in Aikido full time), it'd probably be Krav maga.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:08 PM   #327
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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"From a scientific perspective, devolution does not exist," (citation in wikipedia). As for how things change and how beneficial it is, it depends entirely upon context.
Take care,Matt
Well that's debatable, some folks believe humans are devolving, but I agree with all.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:18 PM   #328
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Well that's debatable, some folks believe humans are devolving, but I agree with all.
Yeah, I suppose most things are pretty debatable. I've enjoyed reading this thread by the way. Lots of good food for thought.
Take care, Gene (and all!). I'm off to nap time now.
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:25 PM   #329
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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When it comes to martial effectiveness i personally consider coordination to be paramount. I don't just mean manual dexterity, but include the ability to perceive as well as the ability to comprehend those perceptions. It takes mental and physical coordination to track the whole body of your attacker at the same time, let alone to track the context surrounding it (or the subtext motivating it), and then to deal with it all effectively. If we're going to talk about martial effectiveness, that's where I think we need to begin. To me, that general idea encompasses all the particulars. When learning to use a weapon you're really learning coordination with it, regardless of whether or not it's man-made or nature-made...
I agree. Until the sword has become as much a part of you as your own arm in use, one has not begun to use the sword properly. Then one can learn to do useful things -- not until.

Aikido is just learning to make the partner's body an extension of my own, bilocating my perception of the physical action between the two centers like we do with stereo vision. Learning to craft this switch of perception is key, like those "magic eye" pictures are to binocular sight -- but kinesthetically -- with two (or more) bodily centers in play. What Aikido, in particular, strives to accomplish, in my opinion is developing this stereo kinesthetic experience of unified perception.

Problem is, most people use their OWN limbs like they were foreign objects, so they have to get over that hurdle first. Ideally, the progression might be seen to go from kokyu undo to integrate the individual body experience -- to weapons, subjectively unifying the perceived body with an external object -- to taijutsu waza which re simply paired kate, learning progressively to unify subjective experience with another, reactive body in a formally structured setting -- to jiyu waza, learning to unify subjectively with another body in an unstructured setting -- to randori, learning to do so with more than one body at a time.

No one has patience for such a strict, linear progression. So, instead, it typically progresses (in every mainline tradition I have experience with) in iterated cycles of the above, repeated over time in varying sequences. YMMV.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:34 PM   #330
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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How do you know that's that case, for sure? I believe it is. Btw, it's been in Florida (where I's born and raised) for over 100 yrs and was originally used as a foraging plant for livestock. Those folks at Uof F (Gators) do one good thing (Gatorade), but then bungle several others (Kudzu, love bugs, NCAA Championship, etc).
Go Gators! SEC Rules!

Not directly a result of its evolution -- the genotype has not changed and the phenotype is simply the result of removed constraints in its present environment. There is an argument to make about aikido and transplantation that follows from your observation, perhaps, but not as regards its evolution, but rather in its development in a novel environment. Kudzu has not evolved differently in Florida or Georgia (or at all, for that matter), its environment has simply changed by being transplanted, and the appearance and behavior of the plant seem different because certain original constraints are not present. That is not the same thing.

Japan is many things as developmental environments go, but "unconstrained" is NOT among them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 01:40 PM   #331
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Master Pangloss from Votaire's Candide, expresses well the beguiling tautology that can typify casual arguments about "adaptation" and "evolution:"

"It is demonstrable," said Pangloss, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."

Now, I understand my hakama so much better.

DH
 
Old 12-16-2008, 06:17 PM   #332
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Would you all be willing to change the phrase "Martially Effectiveness" for "Martially Relevant"? or "Martially Applicable"?

I think it is possible to train correctly in the methodology of Aikido and be doing things principally correct with relevantly correctnesss.

To me effectiveness enters other factors such as speed, strength, timing, suprise, stealth etc. Things that may not be factored into training.

I don't really agree with the comparison of Aikido needs to be martially effective as compared to other arts. Each art has criteria and assumptions that can be a challenge to use as a test of effectiveness. the concept is just way to universal.

I mean if that were true, then aikido could be tested in the UFC and judged solely on that criteria.

However, I think we can demonstrate "Martially Correctness", "Martial Relevancy" when practicing with no issues what so ever.

 
Old 12-16-2008, 06:37 PM   #333
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Oh come now, isn't that the same thing? If it's not martially viable, meaning in a (sword) fight, you'd get dead, then( as a MA) it's wrong. Same as his practice doctrine- practice as real as possible. Isn't that the same as competition? What's that you say? Aikido is too dangerous for competition? Hmmmm.....We have a saying in the gun world- IN a fight you'll fall back on your level of training. Another is perfect practice produces perfect performance, meaning you can practice for hours and hours, but if it's the wrong stuff, it's not helping at all (in fact, it's hurting you).
Well I humbly submit that I've spent quite a bit more time training with guns, more guns, and even more guns and conducting live fires than most...Though I have not participated in the pop up shoot back target range.
Competition has rules which can build bad habits in Aikido. Aikido does have Randori and I do agree with some there is not enough of it. Overall there is something positive to be said about competition in the context of Aikido...What most Aikido lacks however is not competition per se but focused hard training that tests the mettle of both Nage and Uke. I admit we are all old dogs in my Dojo and need to get up the next day. There is a tendency to want to take it "easy" chit chat a bit too much and only really focus on the dinner after practice. LOL I have fought against these tendencies in our own Dojo for years...

Quote:
Btw, no I'm not LE, I'm just a patriotic American exercising my God given 2nd Amendment right and a life long MA practitioner( working on evolving myself). Since studying JKD, I'm driven to participate in evolving MA. For the rest of my life, Aikido (and the gun) is my MA, but if I's ever gonna supplement Aikido with another MA( which I don't see happening, 'cause my OCD will put me in Aikido full time), it'd probably be Krav maga.
Well God Bless you son. Please keep in mind there are allot of LE, Vets, and Active Duty Military folks who have "been there and done that " here on the boards With all due respect...Be mindful and stay humble.
 
Old 12-16-2008, 06:46 PM   #334
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Would you all be willing to change the phrase "Martially Effectiveness" for "Martially Relevant"? or "Martially Applicable"?

I think it is possible to train correctly in the methodology of Aikido and be doing things principally correct with relevantly correctnesss.

To me effectiveness enters other factors such as speed, strength, timing, suprise, stealth etc. Things that may not be factored into training.

I don't really agree with the comparison of Aikido needs to be martially effective as compared to other arts. Each art has criteria and assumptions that can be a challenge to use as a test of effectiveness. the concept is just way to universal.

I mean if that were true, then aikido could be tested in the UFC and judged solely on that criteria.

However, I think we can demonstrate "Martially Correctness", "Martial Relevancy" when practicing with no issues what so ever.
I respectfully disagree Kevin...For Aikido to remain relevent it must work and I think your anology "use" of the UFC is a narrowly focused litmus test at best.

Folks don't factor 'effectiveness" into training for many reasons most of them due to the fact they don't have your perspective of life and death.

William Hazen
 
Old 12-16-2008, 09:24 PM   #335
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I respectfully disagree Kevin...For Aikido to remain relevent it must work and I think your anology "use" of the UFC is a narrowly focused litmus test at best.
William, could you please explain why you feel the UFC is narrowly focused at best? And what would you consider a broader based litmus test?

Do you feel that the repertoire of techniques available to the Aikido practitioner is sufficiently encompassing to allow Aikido to stand on its own as a fighting system?

Ron
 
Old 12-16-2008, 10:33 PM   #336
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Do you feel that the repertoire of techniques available to the Aikido practitioner is sufficiently encompassing to allow Aikido to stand on its own as a fighting system?
Not to be disingenuous, but what's a 'fighting system'? And is aikido supposed to be one? I'm not trying to bait here - I had just had a different understanding of both of those things...

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-16-2008, 10:56 PM   #337
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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William, could you please explain why you feel the UFC is narrowly focused at best? And what would you consider a broader based litmus test?
I'll use an anology. One can be a pretty darn good football player in school and be really good at a particular position. Your skills are tested at every level you play. There are thousands just like you but only a few with the talent, luck, and focus make it to play the NFL. Most anyone else who plays in the NFL( ohhh about 99.5% of all football players) would get thier clocks cleaned. Does this mean you're a bad football player?

Quote:
Do you feel that the repertoire of techniques available to the Aikido practitioner is sufficiently encompassing to allow Aikido to stand on its own as a fighting system?
Ron
Yes Ron Aikido can basically stand on its own When it is practiced as a Martial Art
Any repertoire of techniques in most any Martial Art is sufficient enough when properly applied to achieve the desired result. In my mind it comes down to what you put into your practice you get out of it. Aikido included. With most Aikido you have to fight through the noise of diluted psycho-babble that has tacked itself on over the years to emphasize the philosphy of Aikido over the practice of Aikido. Nishio Shihan saw the danger in this which is why he took a more Martial view. I cross train allot and manage to hold my own with what I know. Aikido in it's essence was born out of Daito Ryu. Nishio integrated Iaido, Kenjitsu, and Jodori in an effort to keep Aikido close to it's Martial Roots. He's not the only one.. Tomiki, Shioda, Sundamori, and other direct students of O'Sensei have this view. In fact I have heard it said more than once that O'Sensei considered Nishio Shihan's practice the future of Aikido and expressed this to him personally.

There are those that "like I've said before" believe the future of Aikido lies in the application of it's philosophy over it's practicum. there are those who believe the opposite is true. Nishio Shihan believed (so to speak) that one can walk softly and carry a big sword and if you practice hard enough not only will you master the sword you will also master yourself and your opponent achieve harmony and thus have no need to fight aka Yurusu Budo...The Budo of "Acceptance."

William Hazen
 
Old 12-17-2008, 09:01 AM   #338
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I agree. Until the sword has become as much a part of you as your own arm in use, one has not begun to use the sword properly. Then one can learn to do useful things -- not until.

Aikido is just learning to make the partner's body an extension of my own, bilocating my perception of the physical action between the two centers like we do with stereo vision. Learning to craft this switch of perception is key, like those "magic eye" pictures are to binocular sight -- but kinesthetically -- with two (or more) bodily centers in play. What Aikido, in particular, strives to accomplish, in my opinion is developing this stereo kinesthetic experience of unified perception.

Problem is, most people use their OWN limbs like they were foreign objects, so they have to get over that hurdle first. Ideally, the progression might be seen to go from kokyu undo to integrate the individual body experience -- to weapons, subjectively unifying the perceived body with an external object -- to taijutsu waza which re simply paired kate, learning progressively to unify subjective experience with another, reactive body in a formally structured setting -- to jiyu waza, learning to unify subjectively with another body in an unstructured setting -- to randori, learning to do so with more than one body at a time.

No one has patience for such a strict, linear progression. So, instead, it typically progresses (in every mainline tradition I have experience with) in iterated cycles of the above, repeated over time in varying sequences. YMMV.
Then to me, that'd be a evolvement of Aikido (in the context that Aikido has devolved). Why don't folks start out learning Aikdo with a ken in their hand?

What I gathered from Nishio Sensei Videos was that most of the 'grabbing of the wrist' (where most Aikido moves start from in practice), was your opponent trying to prevent you from drawing your sword.

Btw, I have and am practicing the Hissatstu and intend on incorporating that into my Aikido, since it is a CWP (Concealed Weapons Permit) item.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 09:15 AM   #339
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Well God Bless you son. Please keep in mind there are allot of LE, Vets, and Active Duty Military folks who have "been there and done that " here on the boards With all due respect...Be mindful and stay humble.
I try my best, sir. I feel like I'm honoring those "been there, done that" folks by offering a different perspective( and if there are those folks, I sure wish they'd get in here and share their knowledge), 'cause imo, the worst thing in the world is for someone to waste ALOT of time practicing wrong, thinking thier practice will help them, when in reality, it'll get them hurt bad or killed. If anyone feels like I've been disrespectful, please let me know, as that's certainly not my intention.

Semper Fi
Gene

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 09:25 AM   #340
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I'll use an anology. One can be a pretty darn good football player in school and be really good at a particular position. Your skills are tested at every level you play. There are thousands just like you but only a few with the talent, luck, and focus make it to play the NFL. Most anyone else who plays in the NFL( ohhh about 99.5% of all football players) would get thier clocks cleaned. Does this mean you're a bad football player?
Possibly, but not so much bad as just not good anough to be Pro or MVP( so I guess it depends on where you are in line{folks who're better might consider all those behind them worse players}). Another way of looking at that is the old saying" cream rises to the top". Same with UFC/MMA. Also, there's ALOT of great fighters in alot of dojos around the world, but it takes alot more than just talent( but you do have to be a great fighter, not just real good) to get in the Octagon.You have to have sponsers and alot of money and be able to travel around the world, etc

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 02:23 PM   #341
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
Not to be disingenuous, but what's a 'fighting system'?
A collection of related strategies and tactics designed to provide one or more individuals with the tools necessary to engage in combat.

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote:
And is aikido supposed to be one?
I can't say whether or not it's supposed to be one but Aikido can be a fighting system. It can also be much more as evidenced by the varied opinions expressed on these boards, and elsewhere, regarding its applicability. In my 30+ years of study Aikido has presented itself to me in a variety of useful guises.

Ron
 
Old 12-17-2008, 02:28 PM   #342
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Nishio Shihan believed (so to speak) that one can walk softly and carry a big sword and if you practice hard enough not only will you master the sword you will also master yourself and your opponent achieve harmony and thus have no need to fight aka Yurusu Budo...The Budo of "Acceptance."

William Hazen
Nice.

Ron
 
Old 12-17-2008, 03:35 PM   #343
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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... as evidenced by the varied opinions expressed on these boards, and elsewhere, regarding its applicability...
You can say that again!
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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
A collection of related strategies and tactics...
Put that way, I do see the relevance - thank you! It's funny, I'm never surprised to find martial applicability in the principles of what we practise; in entering, redefining the shape of engagement, taking balance, etc.; but I really almost never consider the martial applicability of specific techniques. Weird, huh? I think that's why I had never defined aikido in my own mind as a fighting style... but now that I think of it like that, I suppose that it is. Although, as you say, that's not all that aikido is. I guess as we practise, we mostly look for what we want to find (although that's not always what we do find!) - what I am looking for in my practise changes all the time, certainly. I can't wait to see what I've found after 30 years of practising! -J

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-17-2008, 04:15 PM   #344
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I think you completely misunderstood the goal of aikido; have you ever read Peter Goldsbury articles in Columns forum?
Aikido has nothing to do with bjj, MMA or UFC Only very superficial observers would want to transplant the methodology of sports into aikido practice. In the same way - only very beginner and inexperienced aikidoka would want to mix elements of judo, bjj, MT..etc with aikido.

You may like it or no, but Founder meant aikido as misogi, and aikido techniques are tools to achieve this goal. What systema or bjj have to do with misogi? - nothing at all. These arts have simply different goals, so in reality their techniques will develop bad conditioning in the body and mind of aikidoka. Not for nothing Founder got very angry when his uchideshi used judo techniques instead aikido techniques during a class.

One must have very deep knowledge of human nature and did tons of ikkyo when we talk about modification of tools that transform body and mind. We are not here on the level of building speed of entry for a technique, or power of throw. These proprieties are only byproducts of internal transformation, not primary goals. Of course, you can limit your aikido practice to improve its physical elements only, but then you can't use word of ‘evolution' -- it will be simply pretentious LOL.
Hi Szczepan,
Another of those occasions on which I totally agree with you... amazing, eh? Hope you are having a good holiday season up there.
- George

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Old 12-17-2008, 05:49 PM   #345
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Would you all be willing to change the phrase "Martially Effectiveness" for "Martially Relevant"? or "Martially Applicable"?.....
I don't think so, as they mean different things. Imo, in order for a MA to be a MA, it must be martially effective, meaning capable of defeating enemies and factors such as speed, strength, timing,etc should be factored in. Aikido ( or any other MA) should be able to be challenged by any other MA and actually be able to defeat an opponent. If it can't then it's not martially effective, but still be martially relevant, but not martially applicable( something you could and would apply to fighting). This is all assuming one wishes to win. On the other hand, a dance that mimics Aikido techniques would be martially relevant ('cause it resembles a MA) , but not martially applicable and certainly not martially effective.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 06:10 PM   #346
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

George's post pretty much sums it up for my perspective.

Since we are pulling out the "been there, done that" card, I'll sign up for the "Me too" club and up you for the "going there, and doing it" club as well!

William Hazen wrote:

Quote:
I respectfully disagree Kevin...For Aikido to remain relevent it must work and I think your anology "use" of the UFC is a narrowly focused litmus test at best.

Folks don't factor 'effectiveness" into training for many reasons most of them due to the fact they don't have your perspective of life and death
Agree that the UFC is limited and has some constraints that are imposed. the constraints imposed are STILL within the functional framework of martial arts. When you start talking martial effectiveness, I DO think that you have to be able to address you effectiveness against even this limited model. I mean, if you can't defend yourself in the clinch, mount, or guard, what make you think that you have any real abilities and will some how be able to overcome these aspect when you ADD even MORE parameters such as weapons, multiple opponents etc.

So, it is limited, it is a game, but again, I think it is a good one to measure a certain level of martial competence that must be addressed when you start talking the type of effectiveness that is being defined here by Clarence.

Same would go for Judo as well. I get my but smoked by decent Judoka all the time. Sure it is a game with rules, but I have found that if I cannot throw and pin a judoka under those constraints, how well can I really expect to do an ippon when you remove the constraints?

So I think "relevancy" is more appropriate and steers us to a more accurate perspective.

My opinion and pespective came at studying as my base study (as you know) Modern Army Combatives, which frankly I feel has a pretty good methodolgy for training for the modern battlefield. AKA "Martial Effectiveness"

Even within MACP we take great measures to make sure folks understand that hand to hand is not a big factor in measure Martial Effectiveness but a Means to an End in the overall development as a warrior.

For my empty hand concerns on effectiveness it began with an understanding of the clinch and ground fighting as being the beginning of the development of the base structure.

So, you look at "who does this best"? BJJ

Developing my BJJ game it became apparent that I needed to also do a better job at take downs and throws. Who does this best?

Judo and Greco Roman guys...so I spend time with them.

Being an aikidoka long before I got into this MMA/MACP stuff I really began to look seriously at why I needed to study aikido and what was there in the art that was worthwile to study.

Well, what I found was that my BJJ and Judo was going so well because of the understanding that I was gaining from posture, structure and correct movement. The more I looked into it, the more I found that there was great value in continuing my study in this area. So I found that it was worthwile to seek out really good aikido practicioners that focused on "AikI".

Is there one school or one person that offers a BLEND of all these things? If there is I have not found them yet!

I think Akuzawa Sensei is really trying hard it appears in Japan, but only time will tell. Recommend spending time with Ark if you can!

Anyway, I think it is important to stay focused on core compentencies. Aikido or aikido like methodologies are designed, I believe, to impart skills of a certain type...."aiki".

I think when you focus on "effectiveness" as your primary goal then you introduce other elements that retard development of aiki, and you move away from the core competencies of aikido.

As a guy that is concerned with "effectiveness" I think I am doing a good job of adopting a MMA philosophy and that my own personal practice follows much of what Clarence is saying aikido needs to move to.

I think when and if I do open my own shingle that I will teach a combination of things to offer a well rounded, diverse practice.

However, when training students, I think you have to develop classes and sessions that isolate certain practices of study in order to explore them indepth.

We do this all the time in the Army all the time conducting dry fires, rehearsals, and finally live fires.

that said, the enemy is time. How much time do you have to focus and to train?

I think in order to learn the concepts of Aiki, it is a very distinct and focused practice that takes alot of time. I have learned (and learning) through spending time with guys like Toby Threadgill, Mike Sigman, and Ark, that it takes a great deal of work!

It also takes a great deal of time and effort to learn how to fight as well, working the clinch, groundwork, and takedowns, Striking, and kicking!

The practices I believe are somewhat distinct, and while complementary you are working two different aspects that must be trained somewhat separately and synthesized over time through sparring, hard non-compliant training, and competition.

It takes a lot of time! I train about 6 days a week, most of the time 2 sessions a day between Judo, BJJ, Aikido, Striking/Kicks, as well as working in some solo body work when I can.

What I have grown to appreciate is that there are programs and instructors out there that have isolated out areas of concentration...such as aiki based, internal arts, that concentrate on developing and refining in those areas.

The concern I have towards the premise of evolution to gain back effectiveness means that there are tradeoffs. I think you have to be very careful when you look at changing methodology.

It may not be that aikido is complete in meeting your objectives of effectiveness. It certainly is not for me. However, the more I have trained and gained an understanding of methodology and the importance of it, the more I gain an appreciation for the preservation of methodology and staying focused on the endstates of the way.

I think it is important that we consider martial relevancy otherwise you are not really gaining much. I also agree that there are many out there that don't get martial relevancy probably because they have recieved narrow, bad, or misguided training.

I also agree that it is good to explore and push the boundaries of our training and keep an open mind. the conclusion should not be drawn though that we should change our base methodology simply because we are not effective. I don't believe it has anything to do with effectiveness.

In learning aiki, I am doing somethings personally that may not be done traditionally within an aikido class. I am using the heck out of one of those big fitness balls to gain a good sense of core. Ark taught us how to punch the bag differently, I think this is a wonderful practice to gain an understanding of core or internal feel/connection.

I think these things are good examples of how we can explore things in ways that are not traditionally seen in the dojo. However, these things while relevant are not focused on effectiveness.

Anyway, good discussion Ranger Hazen! RLTW!

 
Old 12-17-2008, 06:26 PM   #347
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I don't think so, as they mean different things. Imo, in order for a MA to be a MA, it must be martially effective, meaning capable of defeating enemies and factors such as speed, strength, timing,etc should be factored in. Aikido ( or any other MA) should be able to be challenged by any other MA and actually be able to defeat an opponent. If it can't then it's not martially effective, but still be martially relevant, but not martially applicable( something you could and would apply to fighting). This is all assuming one wishes to win. On the other hand, a dance that mimics Aikido techniques would be martially relevant ('cause it resembles a MA) , but not martially applicable and certainly not martially effective.
Clarence,

I probably already beat this to death in my post I just did...

I'd say based on this that Aikido is a huge waste of time if this is the overriding concern.

the whole paradox of the problem is that you constantly run into a battle of one upsmanship! If the sole goal is simply the measure of defeating the opponent then you simply will keep introducing bigger, better, and faster weapons into the equation. You also mentally and spiritually set yourself up for alot of pain, suffering and anguish as you eventually succumb to old age and death.

A stick beats empty hand, a gun beats stick. young guy beats old guy....

Okay so then you are going to impose constraints on the effectiveness such as it must be empty hand. both must have equal knowledge of the impending fight, etc. etc. Well then, that is when I start bringing in the UFC model as a measure. Which then gets thrown out because folks will say "it is not real..it has rules"

Sigh!

So it always comes back to "effective under what constraints?"

There in lay the problem. Effectiveness becomes an emotional based concept that we all seem to think we have an understanding of, yet we can never agree on what it really means when it comes to "martial arts".

And then we ask...what is the point of studying empty handed martial arts anyway????

 
Old 12-17-2008, 08:21 PM   #348
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Here's a radio interview of Osensei in his later years. Notice how he says that he's never been beaten and could carry 1200lbs. Not to mention the rice cake thing. Sounds like a very competitive individual who engaged in competiton frequently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-17-2008, 09:05 PM   #349
mathewjgano
 
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masakatsu agatsu and everything will be fine?

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
Here's a radio interview of Osensei in his later years. Notice how he says that he's never been beaten and could carry 1200lbs. Not to mention the rice cake thing. Sounds like a very competitive individual who engaged in competiton frequently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs
If I'm remembering right, I've read that as a young man he was very competitive and that his competitive attitude shifted over time toward the masakatsu agatsu concept. Assuming those aren't exagerations or misinterpretations, I think it was his intensity and focus which allowed him to do those amazing things more than any sense of external competition, though that certainly can drive a person very far all on its own.
On the other hand, I play many "competitive" sports and at first glance would probably be described as a pretty competitive person because I try very hard when I'm playing them. It might just be semantics, but I wouldn't describe myself as very competitive...most of the time.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-17-2008, 09:25 PM   #350
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Clarence,

I probably already beat this to death in my post I just did...
Calm down Kevin, if you'd like to discuss this, then I'd be happy to but first I must ask that you get rid of your predispositions and presumptions and open your mind.

Quote:
Keavin Leavitt wrote:
So it always comes back to "effective under what constraints?"....and then we ask...what is the point of studying empty handed martial arts anyway????
I'm gonna leave that, as we'll explore this and see if we can answer these.

Ok, I'd like to discuss your post to Mr Hazen. Btw George's post was simply agreeing with Mr Janczuk, which I find a pretty condescending post. For someone to profess that only a newby idiot would consider sports, I find proof that Osensei was very competive and engaged in competition to test his techniques, the precursor to sports.He then says "only a a very beginner , inexperienced Aikidoka would want to mix BJJ, etc to Aikido." He then professes that Aikido is about Misogi. Misogi? The Shinto ritual of cleansing? You can agree with that if you want, but my point is let's be clear exactly what we're talking about.

But then, you go to great effort to convince Mr Hazen why the UFC would be a good platform to test the Martial relevance and to me, are verbally trying to discern the terms you introduced: Martial relevance, applicabilty and effectiveness.

Then you address me in a post, which I was simply responding to your suggestion of replacing "Martial effectiveness" with "relevance" and "applicability" with my own perception of the concepts.

So then your response to me is you beat it to death to Mr Hazen and that Aikido is a huge waste of time and then go on to tell me how you're not understanding me ( or worse, mis-understanding me).

So I think at this point, being that apparently you're in the Army and I was in the Marine Corps for 8 yrs, let's use Military combat as the model. Imo, martially effective means that in combat, whatever techniques you use, whether it be man to man empty hand or with weapons, your 'fighting system' will most likely enable you to defeat your opponent. Martially relavent could be throwing rocks at your enemy or slapping them, as it IS fighting, but not very effective and so, not very applicable, which is directy related to it's effectiveness ( assuming you're choosing to win the conflict).

So does that answer the above questions?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 

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