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Old 12-12-2008, 05:17 AM   #201
C. David Henderson
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

FWIW I think it would be an enormous loss for Aikido to become unmoored from its cultural roots. That would be change, you might even make an argument it's "adaptation," but you'd have a very hard time convincing me it would be a good thing.

DH
 
Old 12-12-2008, 08:30 AM   #202
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Improving your waza by taking into account counters, openings, and lessons from other arts is one thing. Many of the people on Aikiweb cross train and there is no need to convince us of that point. Reformatting the art to build up its commercial appeal, to counter the popularity of BJJ and MMA is something else. You're blurring the distinctions. Evolving as a budo is one thing. Evolving due to non-budo considerations is something else.
I'm sorry, I believe you're missing my point. I'm not saying Aikido HAS to incorporate another Martial Art (although knowing human nature, I believe it naturally will). I exaggerated the scenario to make my point and that is the closed-mindeness of some folks, That's what will kill Aikido. IMO, Osensei's whole point is to open ourselves completely and take in and flow with the Universe. Budo has many levels.

Quote:
Paul Rodrigo wrote:
I wish you would have that discussion with Chiba shihan. I think you would find it very surprising.
No problem, but if we dis-agree, I doubt I'd change his mind nor him me. Anyway, Osensei's grandson is alive today, I'd be more
interested in his thoughts.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 08:30 AM   #203
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post

But anyway, sure, look at the Kudzu vine, it has evolved to be superior, which means it has adapted to overtake and destroy every plant it comes in contact with. I've seen it destroy whole stands of trees and rows of bushes. So it needs to be eradicated and be replaced with a more beneficial plant, like say an herb or vegetable or fruit.
And how, exactly, is this different from the evolution of 'man'? Kudzu vine hasn't evolved to be superior. It has been taken from Japan and China, introduced by colonizing elements of man into environments it would never have taken root in, and is now endangering and killing all the other plants that aren't equipped to suppress it. So to remedy this 'evil plant' man comes and in further changes the environment to re-select more 'appropriate' plants than the one he originally introduced that then failed to be a part of a naturally balanced ecostructure...and so on and so on.... But worry not, man in this infinite wisdom, and the same mind that caused the problem in the first place, will be along to fix the problem any second...
If this paradigm belonged to plumbing I'd hire a new one before the weekend.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 12-12-2008 at 08:33 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:37 AM   #204
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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What I think that GeneC was implying (correct me if I'm wrong GeneC) was that Bruce Lee changed MA, and that that change made his system one that survived and flourished and become an ancestor to today's MMA. So that is evolution....
Absolutely correct.

Quote:
jeremy Morrison wrote:
So if a person's style of aikido was passed on to other generations (and that's how it works, right?). Some aikido shidoin now are students of students of students of O-sensei. And it probably starts before you even hang out a shingle - I know that my aikido is informed by the people I work with in class and at seminars), then aikido can be said to be evolving.
Now this is where you start to veer off,imo. Merely passing the art from one generation to the next is not evolution, improving the efficiency of the techniques/art is. Adapting by improving to survive is evolution.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 08:46 AM   #205
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Anyway, Osensei's grandson is alive today, I'd be more
interested in his thoughts.
Yet universal flow doesn't place human hierarchy at the top of its qualifications for expression. Many human societies also do not.

I'm not simply trying to bust your chops..In essence, I agree with much that you have said and, in my life, I'm acting as if it is so. However I observe that there is more to see in the references that are being used.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:06 AM   #206
raul rodrigo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I've only met Doshu (Moriteru Ueshiba) once or twice, but I think it is safe to say that he is quite conservative with regard to aikido both technically and organizationally. I don't think his or his father's management of the Aikikai can be safely described as a demonstration of your axiom that "Osensei's whole point is to open ourselves completely and take in and flow with the Universe." Even assuming for the sake of argument that this was O-sensei's point, I think you will find that the son and grandson are/were very different men from the founder. Of course, somone like Prof. Peter Goldsbury would be able to say much more in this regard.

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 12-12-2008 at 09:09 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:15 AM   #207
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I exaggerated the scenario to make my point and that is the closed-mindeness of some folks, That's what will kill Aikido. IMO, Osensei's whole point is to open ourselves completely and take in and flow with the Universe. Budo has many levels.
--> something goes awry here <---

Quote:
No problem, but if we dis-agree, I doubt I'd change his mind nor him me. Anyway,
Whoops!

"You must be open-minded" is actually a very closed-minded position. The belief, "It must change," is very inflexible.

 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:29 AM   #208
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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--> something goes awry here <---

Whoops!

"You must be open-minded" is actually a very closed-minded position. The belief, "It must change," is very inflexible.
Assertions or accusations are often a case of, "1 finger forward 3 fingers back ". (picture a fisted hand with a pointed finger). Like on Kevin Leavitt's signature where it says "watch for what people are cynical about...."That goes for all of us all the time. It's kind of a good self-martial art. I thought about introducing it as the next big thing in the Thumb War Circles. I hear they are stuck and afraid of losing their ancient art .

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #209
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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FWIW I think it would be an enormous loss for Aikido to become unmoored from its cultural roots. That would be change, you might even make an argument it's "adaptation," but you'd have a very hard time convincing me it would be a good thing. DH
Nothing says it has to become "unmoored". I took Tae Kwon Do ( and MMA) partly because they had after-school pick-up/care (having 3 kids). This was a matter of simple logistics and win-win situation. My kids were taken care of after school, until I got off work and then we could enjoy practicing a Martial art together. Believe me, there was no lack of "cultural mooring". Korean history and culture was shoved down our throats every day. I found it funny how every culture will profess that their culture and Martial Art is the original and best. The Koreans, the Philipinos, the Chinese and Japanese, etc. and they are homo-geneous.Oh yes, I lived in Japan for 2 yrs. They really believe that they are the original and pure race and everybody else are savages and mongrels.
My study of Asian history told me they took turns defeating and accupying each other over the last couple of thousand years and their cultures are so intertwined that noone knows for sure where Chinese ends and Japanese begins and Korean extends, etc.

Then a wonderful thing happened 232yrs ago. A new Nation was born- America. We have a rich history of libery and freedom and managed to become a Super Power and the greatest human experiment in the history of mankind. In thousands of years China nor Korea nor Japan was able to do what we did in a 150 yrs. We became the greatest Country in the World by attracting the greatest minds, who knew the value of liberty and freedom. We absorbed other cultures and ideas and technology and made them our own and made them greater and better than they ever were before anywhere else.

So, it it our legacy to take all Martial Arts, including Aikido and make it our own, and take it beyond where it is now and there are still plenty of traditional schools deeply moored and steeped in Oriental culture, that spend half their time bowing and worshiping and crawling around on the floor, but to me, that's wrong. I can't Seiza due to RA knees, but still, it shouldn' tbe mandatory. I'm all for respect, but I worship no-one except my personal Savior Jesus Christ. This is what I mean by adapting Aikido to Americans. I'm a Christian, why should I have to practice Shinto or Omoto or Muslim (or anything else) practices? I shouldn't.
IMO, Marital Arts shouldn't have mandatory religious observation/practice. That stuff should be observed at a different time than practice, by whomever wants to do it, but it shouldn't be mandatory. That's completely un-American. Actually there should be NO religious practices at martial practice (and that's to say respect is still present- folks can still ask for and give thanks for instruction, etc) . It's well known that Shinto and Omoto influenced Osensei to adapt Aikido to show compassion and mercy, instead of permanently maiming or killing your opponent, but that does NOT mean we have to practice Shinto or Omoto to affirm that, it still boils down to each and every person and encounter- training, practice and temper. Imo, I can be a Christian and still have Budo, but I don't expect to worship Christ ( or perform Communion, etc) before, during or after practice( and that's to say a moment of silence for Osensei and Christ is appropriate[Lord knows I whisper a prayer before being thrown]).

Last edited by GeneC : 12-12-2008 at 09:41 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #210
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

So now the point that Clarence makes is not that Aikido will die if it doesn't become more mainstream. Rather, it is that in its current form, it is un-American and has to change. That it is America's legacy to make aikido change. Okay, I think that seems clearer to me. Not correct. But clearer.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #211
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Assertions or accusations are often a case of, "1 finger forward 3 fingers back ". (picture a fisted hand with a pointed finger). Like on Kevin Leavitt's signature where it says "watch for what people are cynical about...."That goes for all of us all the time.
You have been cynical with me about this point before, Jen

Somewhere on the internet, Clarence says that aikido must be this way or it will die. Somewhere in each hombu dojo, there's probably someone saying that aikido must be that way or it will die. All the mats are getting dusty

 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:52 AM   #212
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Yet universal flow doesn't place human hierarchy at the top of its qualifications for expression. Many human societies also do not.

I'm not simply trying to bust your chops..In essence, I agree with much that you have said and, in my life, I'm acting as if it is so. However I observe that there is more to see in the references that are being used.
References? Not sure what you mean. I simply personally believe that Doshu Ueshiba would be the most likely to have the info I seek. Nothing more.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:59 AM   #213
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I've only met Doshu (Moriteru Ueshiba) once or twice, but I think it is safe to say that he is quite conservative with regard to aikido both technically and organizationally. I don't think his or his father's management of the Aikikai can be safely described as a demonstration of your axiom that "Osensei's whole point is to open ourselves completely and take in and flow with the Universe." Even assuming for the sake of argument that this was O-sensei's point, I think you will find that the son and grandson are/were very different men from the founder. Of course, somone like Prof. Peter Goldsbury would be able to say much more in this regard.
While it's true that each and very person is carrying all their own personal baggage that's going to influence their decisions and comments, if Aikido is truly "enlightening", then folks should be able to "fight' thru that baggage (or at least ID and acknowledge it). Btw, it wasn't my idea to talk to anyone else, that was your idea. I personally take other folks' opinion with a grain of salt.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:02 AM   #214
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
I personally take other folks' opinion with a grain of salt.
Yes, I think that much is clear.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:23 AM   #215
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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--> something goes awry here <---Whoops! "You must be open-minded" is actually a very closed-minded position. The belief, "It must change," is very inflexible.
Nothing goes awry except the spinning. Nowere do I say everyone MUST be open-minded or else. Not like that. What I did say (not in so many words) is that if those that're in charge are closed minded, IMO, it'll kill Aikido and Aikido IS a business (just ask anyone trying to un a dojo). Businesss go under every day because of closed-mindedness (meaning refusing to adapt to improve to survive). Species go extinct as well. Mine is simply an observation, don't kill the messenger.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:30 AM   #216
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
While it's true that each and very person is carrying all their own personal baggage that's going to influence their decisions and comments, if Aikido is truly "enlightening", then folks should be able to "fight' thru that baggage (or at least ID and acknowledge it).
When the intensity, severity, and sincerity of the practice picks up and the students are exhausted and sweaty, all thoughts of what aikido is, what aikido should be, the similarities and differences between our organizations and techniques, the colors of our belts, and so forth, all dissolve.

To someone not in the know, it looks like violence, To the practitioners, it's one shared mind, peace and harmony.

Hopefully, you learn to keep that mind occasionally outside of those conditions as well.

To me, that's the practice.

 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:35 AM   #217
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Aikido IS a business.
Teaching aikido can be a business.

Running an organization that promotes aikido can be a business.

Running an organization that certifies and accredits aspects of aikido practice can be a business.

But why, I wonder, would you say that aikido itself is a business?

 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:37 AM   #218
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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What I did say (not in so many words) is that if those that're in charge are closed minded, IMO, it'll kill Aikido.
Who is in charge of your aikido?

Who can kill your aikido?

 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:37 AM   #219
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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So now the point that Clarence makes is not that Aikido will die if it doesn't become more mainstream. Rather, it is that in its current form, it is un-American and has to change. That it is America's legacy to make aikido change. Okay, I think that seems clearer to me. Not correct. But clearer.
I'm glad to be clearing up things for you, but nowhere did I say Aikido will die if it doesn't become mainstream, I said it will go full circle back to being in the shadows, being practiced by an elite few. What I was saying about going mainstream, is in direct context of this thread- EVOLUTION of AIkido. IN my opinion, in the context of evolution, is a simple business plan of survival- appealing to more people. Like it or not, ultimately, at the end of the day, Aikido is a business. Survial of Aikido is directly related to the Dojo surviving, lest it goes underground and is taught in basements and back yards, etc.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:47 AM   #220
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

In post #190, you said: "I'm just saying that unless Aikido evolves, it will become extinct." Seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:48 AM   #221
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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When the intensity, severity, and sincerity of the practice picks up and the students are exhausted and sweaty, all thoughts of what aikido is, what aikido should be, the similarities and differences between our organizations and techniques, the colors of our belts, and so forth, all dissolve.
Yes, that's all well and good, but after all the students leave and the Sensei's looking over the bills( wondering how they're gonna be able to stay open), what I'm saying comes to the forefront.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 10:56 AM   #222
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I'd like to see what other folks' ideas about "the continuing evolution of Aikido" is. Up until recently did we even agree on (of course, I'm assuming we did) the definition with what evolution (as it applies to Aikido) actually is.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 11:13 AM   #223
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In post #190, you said: "I'm just saying that unless Aikido evolves, it will become extinct." Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Well then that's exactly what I mean ( but before, you said I said that if Aikido didn't go mainstream it'd die, which I didn't say that), So let me be clear, in my opinion, if Aikido does not evolve, it will become extinct, as does all other things in Nature, but the fact is, Aikido has been evolving since it's inception.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-12-2008 at 11:16 AM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-12-2008, 12:07 PM   #224
C. David Henderson
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Okay,

This is getting to be more and more about less and less.

Later.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 12:20 PM   #225
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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...lest it goes underground and is taught in basements and back yards, etc.
And that would be a bad thing because...?
 

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