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Old 12-07-2008, 08:24 PM   #151
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
See Aikido is physics, its movement. It is an abstract..... Evolution applies to us improving our skill. We evolve, we learn, we change, we use the tasser, we make the circle properly, we improve the movements of our own bodies to get the results we seek, not Aikido. That is what I was saying.
Physics is absolute, but yes, biological evolution aside, technology has evolved, electronics have evolved, computers have evolved, communication has evolved, music has evolved, medicine has evolved and martial arts has evolved. IMO, Aikido has evolved from where a Sensei hand selects his students and lives with them and they serve him, etc. to where practically anybody can 'hang out a shingle' and teach their own 'style' of Aikido, but that's not Aikido evolving, is it? That's Aikido moving on a lateral plane, right? Imo, noone has evolved martial arts like Bruce Lee, by stripping away all the unnecessary movements and incorporating the most useful, creating a hybrid martial art, not needing improvement. Has anyone done that for Aikido?

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-07-2008, 09:19 PM   #152
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Kevin, I see your point.

For me what stops me is my own natural inclination. Now if I was at the point of kill or be killed. Will you kill as an Aikidoka to save your own life. That I don't know. But it is something I am not aware of that was part of O'Sensei's philosophy. I don't know if he thought about it or took it for granted or what. But, it is something I don't think really is discussed much among strict Aikidoka's.

you say you want a evolution we all want to change the world.
We can say Aikido evolved, if you want to use Evolution loosely, from it's parent art in terms of not killing or intentionally doing serious harm to others. If you think twist the theory of Evolution to say not killing is a greater benefit then killing, this means Aikido. But that doesn't fit well to the Evolution theory. Aikido's parent arts would have to against killing. They would have to be what Aikido is now. Aikido would have to go beyond that into a greater anti-violence/killing stance than it is now.

Now the mutations of the next generation of Aikido would have to be even more pro-peace and non-violent- really humane, really passive in nature- in the techniques and philosophy then Aikido is now. It would have to be where you sit down and let the attacker beat you, a Gandhi passive protest. I don't see a style of Aikido that is, now. If you want to follow strictly Darwin's theory.

The other thing is the law. You can't just kill someone who insults you, or cuts you off while driving. Even though as humans that trait exists and if allowed to we have and would do just that the second the law expired. And the method of choice would be a fire arm. How does that play into evolution. We then are getting into the realm of behavior screwing with the law of natural selection.

Psych 101. Our environment dictates our behavior. That has a huge effect on Evolution- natural selection. Like laws dictates that we can't kill someone because they made us mad. Even that act messes with natural selection. This is applicable to Aikido because Aikido next generations where not effect by natural selection, they where protected form it. Are they then beneficial mutations that promote greater peace and non-violence in philosophy and technique? Did they survive because they are the fittest mutations?

Another view, are the more violent Aikido styles the beneficial mutations ? Meaning they are mutating Aikido to be more violent, to kill or harm (as in an early Seagal movie) kill or seriously injure when the need arises, like Aikido is becoming its parent arts of old? I would say that is de-evolution.

I think we are over working Aikido when we speak of evolution. Evolution really was one man's way of looking at the world and explaining the world hundreds of years ago that many of us agreed to was the way things happened. I don't think it applies to Aikido, personally. It isn't because I am against the idea of evolution. It is because Aikido is a thing that what comprises it, itself can't reproduce itself for that matter, it isn't alive, it can't evolve. People mutate, improve, change technology, it doesn't do that itself. In reality, when that happens what really is happening we as humans are evolving our tools, and improving or developing our world. Again in terms of Aikido different styles being evolutions of Aikido we have to go back to the idea of natural selection being screwed with and having both weak and strong survive and carry on.

For the heck of it, if a monkey uses a stick, a tool, to get ants or kill another monkey and he alters that stick, fashioning it to a new tool is the tool evolving or is the monkey? If the stick is programmed to mutate by the monkey without the monkey is the stick alive thus is it evolving, or is it just doing what the monkey programmed it to do. That was just a wild brain toot.

Again FWIW. WDIM. I am just going to move in as many circles as possible and try not to crash into anyone.

Last edited by Buck : 12-07-2008 at 09:34 PM.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 09:38 PM   #153
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Again in terms of Aikido different styles being evolutions of Aikido we have to go back to the idea of natural selection being screwed with and having both weak and strong survive and carry on. We also have to consider that any mutation Aikido must be more peaceful and wanting peace, and less violent in technique, and not more. If we are to apply evolution to Aikido.

If your going to say Aikido style X is better than Aikido style Y, it would have to be in terms and benchmarks of peace. Why is it always framed by benchmarks of violence and competition? We should evolve our thinking.

Last edited by Buck : 12-07-2008 at 09:44 PM.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 09:50 PM   #154
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Ah, but "puntuated evolution" accepts the idea of "hopeful monsters." That is, certain environments create opportunities in which more "mutants" survive, and those "mutants" may possess traits that are more dissimilar from the traits of their parents than a "gradualist" view of evolution would allow.

In other words, if one takes the view that Aikido "evolved" by ditching the head-banging ethos, it is not a contradiction in terms just because Aiki-jujutsu included it. Evolution presupposes change, and at some point the change must assume a functional and discernable difference. The "almost wing" becomes a wing.

Evolution, as a biological theory, also presupposes the idea of natural selection. If one wants to take the analogy and apply it to a martial art, whether a particular change is a short term adaptation or a longer term evolution, there is nothing surprising in the notion that the nature of the change reflects the environment, whether natural or human-made, as with the law.

I agree with Buck that "evolution" is an anlogy applied to our "tools." Nonetheless, it makes sense to speak of the evolution of, say, the plow, as much as it does music.

By the way, anyone recall the "100 monkey" theory?
 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:07 PM   #155
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Clarence wrote:

Quote:
That's Aikido moving on a lateral plane, right? Imo, noone has evolved martial arts like Bruce Lee, by stripping away all the unnecessary movements and incorporating the most useful, creating a hybrid martial art, not needing improvement. Has anyone done that for Aikido?
Is it evolvement, revolution, or simply a paradiqm shift?

more aptly put, a rennaissance, or a re-discovery of what was once known, but forgotten over the years.

The UFC and emergence of MMA is probably the most recent example of a paradiqm shift.

 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:16 PM   #156
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Again in terms of Aikido different styles being evolutions of Aikido we have to go back to the idea of natural selection being screwed with and having both weak and strong survive and carry on. We also have to consider that any mutation Aikido must be more peaceful and wanting peace, and less violent in technique, and not more. If we are to apply evolution to Aikido.

If your going to say Aikido style X is better than Aikido style Y, it would have to be in terms and benchmarks of peace. Why is it always framed by benchmarks of violence and competition? We should evolve our thinking.
I try not to mix ethics and morality with my martial practice I guess. I simply practice martially without regard for this when I practice. It is what it is.

Harm and Killing are what they are, harm and killing, nothing more nothing less.

As we develop more depth and breadth of skill, we have available possibly more choices and options.

We can separately develop a code of ethics and morality that allow us to decide how to apply martial skills and techniques.

I think personally we as humans tend to over think our practice and form attachments and labels where they are not important and end up wasting alot of time doing stuff for the wrong reasons, or confusing ourselves as to what is really going on.

 
Old 12-07-2008, 10:23 PM   #157
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Clarence wrote:

Is it evolvement, revolution, or simply a paradiqm shift?

more aptly put, a rennaissance, or a re-discovery of what was once known, but forgotten over the years.

The UFC and emergence of MMA is probably the most recent example of a paradiqm shift.
Having nothing to do with the post or the poster which prompted Kevin to respond in the quote. I want to make a side comment on what Kevin said for the sake of it.

Yea, I agree Kevin. UFC and MMA is a shift. Look at Catch-As-Catch-Can, or going way back to ancient wrestling. It's all just a shift.
 
Old 12-07-2008, 11:19 PM   #158
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

David, yea, there is adaptation to environments. Take Steelhead trout a.k.a Rainbow trout. This fish experiences both non-anadromous and anadromous states. This fish makes changes to its two different environments. A result of evolution theory- possibly. Many creatures make constant adaptations permanent or temporary to their environment to survive.

We as humans are in constant adaptation for survival and not. Such adaptations might or might not be seen physically like in trout. We can throw that under the large umbrella of contemporary evolution. We can even broaden evolution to include any changes or shifts is the result of evolution. But then we are moving more and more into variations being different things when they are not. That isn't evolution. Color skin, Hair texture, etc. between people don't qualify as evolution, but as variation. Now if humans grew an extra functioning organ to allow to live in outer space, over time, we then would evolve. This is the same for Aikido, etc.

In this case, that is what I think is happening here with this discussion. Aikido styles are variations not different arts. They have not over time, "become beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different [thing] (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature)." Again I point to what I said about Aikido if it where to evolve it would have to be more peaceful etc. But, I feel Aikido as an abstract is not a living creature so it can't evolve in the truest sense of the word/theory.

All martial arts use the same principles and laws that are applied different in part or whole depending on a bunch of reasons. To evolve those principles over time have to have an accumulation of change that creates a completely different never existed before principle to be used my martial arts. I would be interested in seeing a circle evolve, not a variations. A true evolutionary result that I can use in my Aikido and defeat an attacker faster and more peacefully with. Does light evolve? Has anyone been able to bend it around corner yet? I could use that in my Aikido. Aikido hasn't evolved it has variations. That is my point.
 
Old 12-08-2008, 05:13 AM   #159
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I didn't say remove the violence from Aikido, I said he developed Aikido to remove the violence from Aikijutsu, etc. By that I mean the bone crushing, complete joint removal, rip the throat out, skull crushing, etc.

To answer another querie, I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps where I boxed and then studied Shotokan Karate in Iwakuni, Japan, then some JKD and then Tae Kwon Do and then MMA. I understand about fighting and violence. I have a 30 stitch scar on my belly from a knife fight on the street. I fully understand about meeting fire with fire.

I love Aikido and will study/practice it 'tilI die, because that'swhere i am in my life, but I know that up against a hardened crininal, I'm gonna need something else, 'cause Aikido ain't gonna save me, but that's not why I study/practice it.

That hardened criminal/young punk MMA fighter on steriods ain't gonna lay down just 'cause I toss him around. I'm gonna have to take him out or he's gonna take me out and that's the simple fact, so I'm gonna have to crush his skull and rip his throat out any way I can before I run out of gas, or I'm dead. That's why I have a CCW and carry 9 rds of .45 hollow point, 'cause I'm not even gonna stand there and fight the guy, period. One lucky punch could leave me paralyzed or dead. I'm not even gonna give him the chance. Ain't gonna happen. Sorry. Hopefully some day I'll be comfortable enough to just carry a taser.
Thanks for clarifying that point Clarence...... I understand fully what you are saying here and would agree whole heartedly, having been subject to violence myself on many occassions in my occupation.... and suffering the scars of those incidents..... Unfortunately we can't carry weapons in the UK even when ones job is prone to the kind of scenario that you talk about..... Even so I carry a tanbo near to my seat just in case the odds are too great and I have no choice but to use it.......

Tony
 
Old 12-08-2008, 09:17 AM   #160
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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David, yea, there is adaptation to environments. Take Steelhead trout a.k.a Rainbow trout. This fish experiences both non-anadromous and anadromous states. This fish makes changes to its two different environments. A result of evolution theory- possibly. Many creatures make constant adaptations permanent or temporary to their environment to survive.

We as humans are in constant adaptation for survival and not. Such adaptations might or might not be seen physically like in trout. We can throw that under the large umbrella of contemporary evolution. We can even broaden evolution to include any changes or shifts is the result of evolution. But then we are moving more and more into variations being different things when they are not. That isn't evolution. Color skin, Hair texture, etc. between people don't qualify as evolution, but as variation. Now if humans grew an extra functioning organ to allow to live in outer space, over time, we then would evolve. This is the same for Aikido, etc.

In this case, that is what I think is happening here with this discussion. Aikido styles are variations not different arts. They have not over time, "become beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different [thing] (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature)." Again I point to what I said about Aikido if it where to evolve it would have to be more peaceful etc. But, I feel Aikido as an abstract is not a living creature so it can't evolve in the truest sense of the word/theory.

All martial arts use the same principles and laws that are applied different in part or whole depending on a bunch of reasons. To evolve those principles over time have to have an accumulation of change that creates a completely different never existed before principle to be used my martial arts. I would be interested in seeing a circle evolve, not a variations. A true evolutionary result that I can use in my Aikido and defeat an attacker faster and more peacefully with. Does light evolve? Has anyone been able to bend it around corner yet? I could use that in my Aikido. Aikido hasn't evolved it has variations. That is my point.
Thanks,Buck. There is a lot packed in there that is thought provoking. I understand one of your points to be that Aikido, as an abstract constuct, no more evolves than, say, a circle or light. I can agree with that at one level, and its an interesting way of looking at the question.

You also talk about people mistaking variation in their practices for a more fundamental level of change (if I can avoid the e-word). To me that's a bit of a different question; but I see your point and think you're probably right.

One of the threads running through this thread is the relationship between Aikido as a martial art and violence -- which your post echos too, in places. Your description of an evolutionary result as being able to defeat an enemy quickly and more peacefully describes pretty accurately what I think most Aikidoists would identify as one of its principle differences from its antecedant arts, as well as its problematic objective as a gendai art form.

Regards and thanks.

DH
 
Old 12-08-2008, 03:16 PM   #161
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I ......I think personally we as humans tend to over think our practice and form attachments and labels where they are not important and end up wasting alot of time doing stuff for the wrong reasons, or confusing ourselves as to what is really going on.
Then to me to eliminate that would be Aikido evolving.

Also, I think I'm hearing either a contradiction or a paradox. I'm hearing about Aikido's benchmark being peace, but then, at the same time, I'm hearing that there is violence in Aikido and it is necessary. Also, that means for Aikido to evolve would be to make it totally wothless as a martial art and just become a dance.
We had a saying in the Marine Corp that says "Peace thru superior firepower" and "Fighting for peace is like f%^&ing for virginity". My wife says competition in Aikido is like having competition in yoga.

I still think that Aikido evolving has nothing to do with Natural evolution, which takes thousands and millions of years and requires a adaptation at the basic DNA level and technology/arts evolving which happens in months and years and merely requires someone to have a better idea to improve on it.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-08-2008, 05:19 PM   #162
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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Clarence wrote:

Is it evolvement, revolution, or simply a paradiqm shift?

more aptly put, a rennaissance, or a re-discovery of what was once known, but forgotten over the years.

The UFC and emergence of MMA is probably the most recent example of a paradiqm shift.
This is what I said above in this statement "For my part, I don't go to prove myself in the dojo in any particular way other than bringing my entire self there year after year..etc..and rediscovering, in new terms, that which is always there." to quote me

I'm not sure I'd agree that MMA or UFC are a paradigm shift in particular. But it is an example, to my eye, of a re-emergence of someting which is already there... which is a gladiator variety of fighting/contest which can be also found in other sports: football, for example. I'd be interested to hear how you feel it is a paradigm shift. Or perhaps what it is a paradigm shift from.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-08-2008, 05:19 PM   #163
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

semantics, but I would not say there is violence in aikido as much as what we practice recognizes and is concerned with violence. To me for violence to be actually present requires actual acts of harm to be present.

To me competition can occur on many levels and it is in aikido and Yoga even! Who hasn't been in a yoga class and you look around to see how well your warrior pose is to someone elses! That is competition!

I do think aikido is meant to be a paradox in this respect.

I also don't believe that it evolves as an art. People grow and transform, but aikido is what it is, the collective and individual experiences of folks in a room that practice together for a limited time.

How evolved, skillfull, or effective that interaction is depends on many things and will very from dojo to dojo, night to night, and person to person.

Competitive models that have rules and measures to test yourself against are okay I think. Nothing wrong with them if they are done in the right spirit for the right reasons.

 
Old 12-08-2008, 07:48 PM   #164
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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semantics, but I would not say there is violence in aikido as much as what we practice recognizes and is concerned with violence. To me for violence to be actually present requires actual acts of harm to be present.

To me competition can occur on many levels and it is in aikido and Yoga even! Who hasn't been in a yoga class and you look around to see how well your warrior pose is to someone elses! That is competition!

I do think aikido is meant to be a paradox in this respect.

I also don't believe that it evolves as an art. People grow and transform, but aikido is what it is, the collective and individual experiences of folks in a room that practice together for a limited time.

How evolved, skillfull, or effective that interaction is depends on many things and will very from dojo to dojo, night to night, and person to person.

Competitive models that have rules and measures to test yourself against are okay I think. Nothing wrong with them if they are done in the right spirit for the right reasons.
Is that your answer to my question?

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:02 PM   #165
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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This is what I said above in this statement "For my part, I don't go to prove myself in the dojo in any particular way other than bringing my entire self there year after year..etc..and rediscovering, in new terms, that which is always there." to quote me

I'm not sure I'd agree that MMA or UFC are a paradigm shift in particular. But it is an example, to my eye, of a re-emergence of someting which is already there... which is a gladiator variety of fighting/contest which can be also found in other sports: football, for example. I'd be interested to hear how you feel it is a paradigm shift. Or perhaps what it is a paradigm shift from.
I think you might be able to call it a re-emergence if you wanted to. I do think it was a big paradigm shift for many. It was for me! Not at first, I continued to ignore what I saw for many years until I had to face it and found out that I was not as proficient as I thought I was!

Anyway, I think it was a paradigm shift for many because mainstream martial arts in 1993 did not train the way the MMA movement does today. Again, it is not the end all, be all of everything, and certainly many don't have a need nor want to train that way.

However, it did bring in new ways of looking and judging martial effectiveness to the mainstream martial arts community.

New? Hardly. Bruce Lee certainly had come up with the concept before.

Sort of like Columbus discovering America. He really didn't discover anything as folks were already here! But it wasn't until he sailed that the western world took notice and formed a paradigm shift that focused on the new world. Therefore, he gets credit for it right or wrong!

It may not have been a paradigm shift for you personally as you may have either already understood these things, or you are not concerned with them.

However, for many (alot of folks) it was.

 
Old 12-08-2008, 11:03 PM   #166
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Is that your answer to my question?
lol, no, we posted our messages at the same time so I didn't see it until right now!

 
Old 12-09-2008, 07:08 AM   #167
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I do think aikido is meant to be a paradox ...
(Taken out of context on purpose)

Ueshiba's intent? Perhaps it's why Aikido is so rich in form and interpretation. Emphasizing both sides of the Aikido coin (the ability to render great harm to an adversary vs all the peace love dove harmony stuff) Ueshiba pretty much guaranteed that Aikido would continue to evolve after his death. Does anyone think that he didn't forsee that his art would morph according to the interpretations of his deshi once he was no longer around?

Intended or not, deep insight Kevin.

Ron
 
Old 12-09-2008, 10:53 AM   #168
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

It would make for a nice koan.

DH
 
Old 12-09-2008, 01:19 PM   #169
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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semantics, but I would not say there is violence in aikido as much as what we practice recognizes and is concerned with violence. To me for violence to be actually present requires actual acts of harm to be present.
Semantics? I'd like to to know what the two meanings of violence are.

I'd also like to know who thinks Aikido is NOT violent? Most all of Aikido IS violent (only the strikes/kicks/rips/tears, etc are removed, but I'd bet a bundle that the vast majority who actually had to use it on the street will add it back in), it is only up to the individual to not inflict damage. Most moves are intented to be executed with 'great ki', still manifesting as 'great force'. IMO, Aikido's basic intent is to show compassion and mercy at a time when one could easily maim or kill them (which of course, could be extended to spending one's days walking in fields of wild flowers and sitting on mountain tops exuding peace thru all the world), which is quite different than to claim it's non-violent, so I think it's more of a misnomer than semantic.

Quote:
Ken Leavitt wrote:
To me competition can occur on many levels and it is in aikido and Yoga even! Who hasn't been in a yoga class and you look around to see how well your warrior pose is to someone elses! That is competition!

I do think aikido is meant to be a paradox in this respect .
Looking to see if you're doing a technique properly is one thing, looking to see if you're doing it better is an unhealthy issue that might need therapy and medication. Clearly competition in this context means an organized event with judges and officials and rankings and sponsors, etc.

Again, no paradox here,imo.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-09-2008, 02:06 PM   #170
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Semantics? I'd like to to know what the two meanings of violence are. I'd also like to know who thinks Aikido is NOT violent?
I assert that aikido is not violent.

"Violent" is how an observer may judge an encounter. The practitioner, however, is supposed to operate in the moment, in a state free from the dualistic notions, such as violent / non-violent, good / evil, etc. / un-etc.

It's the gazillion repetitions in a just-so manner that help to ensure that the other party in your encounter does not always end up dead out of your own habit.

That may be a bit esoteric, but it is what it is.

 
Old 12-09-2008, 04:29 PM   #171
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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lol, no, we posted our messages at the same time so I didn't see it until right now!
LOL funny co-inky-dink.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:37 PM   #172
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think you might be able to call it a re-emergence if you wanted to. I do think it was a big paradigm shift for many. It was for me! Not at first, I continued to ignore what I saw for many years until I had to face it and found out that I was not as proficient as I thought I was!

Anyway, I think it was a paradigm shift for many because mainstream martial arts in 1993 did not train the way the MMA movement does today. Again, it is not the end all, be all of everything, and certainly many don't have a need nor want to train that way.

However, it did bring in new ways of looking and judging martial effectiveness to the mainstream martial arts community.

New? Hardly. Bruce Lee certainly had come up with the concept before.

Sort of like Columbus discovering America. He really didn't discover anything as folks were already here! But it wasn't until he sailed that the western world took notice and formed a paradigm shift that focused on the new world. Therefore, he gets credit for it right or wrong!

It may not have been a paradigm shift for you personally as you may have either already understood these things, or you are not concerned with them.

However, for many (alot of folks) it was.
hmmm, interesting to hear about that from your perspective.
in 1993 I was just getting my gi on, as it were. I'd just been training in Aikido for a coupla years then. I never considered the sport element of MA at that point. TBH, I don't think too much about it now, either. At that time, 1993, I was coming out of my teens and I was more focused on the street and considered MA's only in those terms; that is the street and health benefits.
To my surprise and delight it became a much deeper practice spiritually, I 'spose you could say. I really think of things 'spiritual' as 'of the heart'. So my training, paradoxically, became one of more proficient protection as well as 'of the heart'. In this way, for me, it is a reality practice and I still don't relate to it in sports terms. But even that is changing because the language of my profession as a PE teacher of MA in public schools.
thanks.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-09-2008, 07:31 PM   #173
GeneC
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I keep hearing the word paradigm, meaning- a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated ; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind.

I think this might be a misnomer as well. All thru history folks believed certain things, until other folks proved that to be wrong. The earth being flat being one example, thinking the Universe revolved around the Earth is another, to everything from gravity to electricity, to bloodletting, to hygiene preventing disease, etc None of that caused folks to shift a preset set of theories, etc from this to that, it completely changed all thought and understanding. Imo, MMA was an evolution ( by definition, adaptation to survive) of a hybrid MA that is superior in a 'no holds barred' situation.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-09-2008, 09:36 PM   #174
Voitokas
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I think, GeneC, that Kevin and Jennifer were using 'paradigm' as meaning a framework of thought, as the word was popularised by Thomas Kuhn in his 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions'. A good specific example would be the shift in thinking from the theory that heat was made of an invisible fluid that could occupy certain types of materials to the theory of heat being energy. Both ways of thinking about heat are useful, and I could describe how the physical world works using the language of 'caloric fluid' maybe even more easily than I could describe it in the language of free energy distributed through a system of molecules. The two ways of talking (and thinking) about heat represent different paradigms, and inquiry conducted under different paradigms can lead to different questions being asked and different interpretations of the answers.

So in Kevin's last post, the paradigm shift is in the mind of the beholder...

I am not an expert
 
Old 12-09-2008, 10:14 PM   #175
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

yes, that is what I meant Jeremy.

Jennifer, I too had the exact same experiences with martial arts for the most part.

I can distinctly remember watching UFC 1 in disbelief as Royce Gracie systematically beat all his opponents. My Karate buddies and I came up with every reason why we had problems with it. It was not until 10 years later that I finally made the shift in my perspective of things and what it meant.

It was a long time to experience dissonance for myself.

No problems or issues with your experiences, as mine certainly do not invalidate yours....they simply mine.

There are certainly many ways to grow and experience life and martial arts as well.

I think this is what makes having a discussion about an concept evolving such as aikido. It can be such a wide range of experiences for so many.

I think revolutions, trends, paradigm shifts, evolutions are hard to identify while you are in them. I think they are measured with the perspective of history or passed time.

They also tend to be categorical and general in nature. So in this respect on a interpersonal level it can be vastly different for every person.

 

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