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Old 11-28-2008, 03:06 AM   #101
"Tom28"
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Sorry I have not read the entire thread, hence you have hopefully received this advice already.

Stop being a coward ..
I got about this far and stopped reading your post.

Jumping into a discussion admitting that you have not read the entire thread seems a little quick on the draw, am I wrong?

If you want to contribute may I suggest you do what the rest of the posters here have done? Take time to read the entire thread and what others have contributed. It sounds like you read my first post then hammered the reply button.
If you posted something asking for help I would respect you enough to make myself better aware of the entire issue before commenting.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 07:36 AM   #102
"Mister Dude"
IP Hash: 88fd0d39
Anonymous User
Re: Another harassment question

I once got slapped on the ass by a co-worker. I found it unconfortable, but I did nothing. I'd been working with her a while, it only happened once and it seemed more like an humoristic attemt than anything sexist. So I just ignored it.

Wonder how I've reacted if she was some evil biatch that actully enjoyed stuff like that and did it alot. I might have just told her to stop myself. If I couldn't I'd pretend it was no big deal at all. It's a defense mecanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense...nce_Mechanisms). If anybody asked me about it I'd most likely just say it's no big deal. It's a natural reaction. If somebody just made it stop it would be great.

If the guy is such a great guy I don't see the problem about bringing it to his attention. You don't like his behavior, be honest about it.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 08:54 AM   #103
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Whoa....Mr. Mark Jakabcsin! I don't think there is a need to get up into Tom28's face like that. You are out of line with your post. You could have gotten your point across without call him a coward etc.

Last edited by Buck : 11-28-2008 at 08:59 AM.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 09:02 AM   #104
RonRagusa
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I find your words and tone very offensive, dated, rude, insensitive, sexist, etc. You do a huge amount of injustice and harm to women with what you say and your opinions. Please rethink how you see women. They are not damned to being victims, and are the weaker sex etc. Things have changed. Just because you run into one bully situation (male or female) in the dojo doesn't make it a global crisis. Please think about what you said, it is really as offensive as the situation Tom28 in which you find just as offensive. Please don't stereotype all men as "Good O'l Boy behavior." And that all men see women as objects and targets for violence. All men are not predators, criminals, monsters out to harm women. .
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
Whoa....Mr. Mark Jakabcsin! I don't think there is a need to get up into Tom28's face like that. You are out of line with your post. You could have gotten your point across without call him a coward etc.
Hmmm...

Ron
 
Old 11-28-2008, 09:22 AM   #105
"Tom28"
IP Hash: 27eaaa4f
Anonymous User
Re: Another harassment question

Wow I just read your post and what a load of garbage. Were you drinking when you posted that?

I've already touched on the foolishness of chiming into a debate without reading the previous contributes first. Foolish and disrespectful.
Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Stop being a coward and talk to the teacher. You OWE it to him AND to the women YOU have brought to the class.

Just incase you cannot see how you are a coward read your post above. YOU are PRESSURING HER to take action.
I'm a coward for pressuring her to take action?
Well I guess I'm guilty of being a coward Mark
She was hoping it would just go away. Every work in a place that HAS had sexual harassment present Mark? I have a feeling you haven't.
Young women will often just hope something goes away. While it's the mans fault THEY feel embaressed and feel like it's in some way shape or form their fault.
Wrong.
If I pressured her it is because I felt she should both stand up for herself AND being told his advances were out of place by her would send a more clear message.

Quote:
Get real and grow a pair
Once again only men are expected to stand up to themselves?
Do women who stand up for themselves do so because they grew a pair? Or are women generally the weaker gender?

Quote:
At a minimum you should stop bringing potential victims to this class, otherwise you are an enabler and cohort. While that might sound harsh, it is based on the history YOU outlined.
So me inviting a female to train in an Aikido dojo is basically me inviting them to be harassed?
Sorry he is in the wrong, not her. It may be his dojo but the dojo is a registered dojo, I would expect certain rules coincide with being official.

Quote:
I haven't read the entire thread nor do I intend to waste my time doing so
The only waste of time in this entire thread has been your drive by commentary. I suppose you're better than everyone else here since our input and opinion's seem to be below you.

Of course my actions would be just as bad to you as sexual harassment..... you're post was a piece of work Mark. I think you have some serious issues to sort out, good luck with that.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 09:52 AM   #106
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hmmm...

Ron
Ron, do you agree with Tom28 or not? My post was in the context of the thread, it was a counter- showing reverse sexism - by using the language and stuff that was already being assumed about the sensei and his behavior. It was a device to show how offensive assuming someone as a male sexist and objectifying a women can be to men, just as it is to women. Many people, like yourself, jumped to the conclusion accusing that the sensei was a sexist male chauvinist pig. I didn't think so and found that wrong and just as offensive. So, I just took that feminism attack on the sensei and the feminism argument (beside showing it didn't apply to the situation) and put a mirror to it. I was attacking the agruement and the conditions. Not anyone individual.

My point was to put the sexist shoe on the other foot, accusations of sexism on are just as unfair ,harsh and insulting toward men as women. Shooting from the hip with sexist etc. accusations and stereotyping men are just as offensive, and is something that is done way too often, frequently without any regard, and at a moments convenience when it comes to me. It was unfair and wrong to witch hunt the sensei condemning him as a sexist pig objectifying women, when the whole situation was nothing more then a dating game if you like.

Ron, would you feel the same way about what I said if I was a women who said it? Double standand?

Maybe I don't understand Mark's point and he was getting at what I said, and I took it wrong. If that is the case, I apologize.

And it is not my intention to be intentionally treat someone rude personally, treating them disrespectful by name calling and related accusations.


Last edited by Buck : 11-28-2008 at 10:01 AM.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 10:24 AM   #107
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Ron, I am against the objectifying of men. I feel that was happening with this sensei. I was against that.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 03:23 PM   #108
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Jumping into a discussion admitting that you have not read the entire thread seems a little quick on the draw, am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong here. I wrote that to let everyone know I am responding to your initial post and nothing else. After reading your very distrubing post about your activities I responded to YOUR WORDS. That does not make me a quick draw and more than the second person that posted.

Please do the rigth thing if you haven't already.

Mark J.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 03:35 PM   #109
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Whoa....Mr. Mark Jakabcsin! I don't think there is a need to get up into Tom28's face like that. You are out of line with your post. You could have gotten your point across without call him a coward etc.
Philip,
We disagree on this one completely. The poster tells a story how he introduces a woman to training class. By his own admission he sees the instructors behavior is wrong but does not have the courage to say or do anything. By allowing this action to continue he is CONDONING IT. Period. You either do the right thing or you do not. There is no line in the sand.

To make matters worse he KNOWINGLY brings a second victim to his teacher. Oh, yes he warns her. How very kind and brave of him. When he sees the same action occurring a second time he once again takes no real action. Actually worse he encourages the victim he supplied to his teacher to find the courage to talk to the teacher, but does not find the same courage in himself. How can you label those actions as anything other than cowardly? This is not name calling it is simply recognition of the facts supplied.

Will he bring a third victim? Frankly the poster's actions are just as bad if not worse than the teachers. Anyone can try to sugar coat that if they want but at the end of the day it is what it is. Calling this something else only helps the poster to continue his poor behavior.

Philip, if you really cared about helping the poster improve you would be honest with him, sometimes honesty is difficult. If you really cared about the women involved you would speak strongly in their defense. If you really cared about Aikido you would be outraged by the entire situation and speak loudly for improvement.

A very disappointed,

Mark J.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 04:32 PM   #110
RonRagusa
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I was attacking the agruement and the conditions. Not anyone individual.
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
I find your words and tone very offensive, dated, rude, insensitive, sexist, etc. You do a huge amount of injustice and harm to women with what you say and your opinions. Please rethink how you see women. They are not damned to being victims, and are the weaker sex etc. Things have changed. Just because you run into one bully situation (male or female) in the dojo doesn't make it a global crisis. Please think about what you said, it is really as offensive as the situation Tom28 in which you find just as offensive. Please don't stereotype all men as "Good O'l Boy behavior." And that all men see women as objects and targets for violence. All men are not predators, criminals, monsters out to harm women. .
(emphasis added)


Attacking the argument? Yeah, right.

Ron
 
Old 11-28-2008, 04:38 PM   #111
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Lost centers. Whether right or wrong, this is very unbecoming.

 
Old 11-28-2008, 05:10 PM   #112
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Lost centers. Whether right or wrong, this is very unbecoming.
Unbecoming? So you are implying it is more important to be becoming and PC than morally right? Sorry your attitude IS the problem. It is this attitude in society that it is better to keep quiet and let things pass rather than look rude by speaking out against actions that are morally wrong. This is one of the biggest reasons racism is still a problem in our society. When coworkers or buddies say racial slurs or jokes people who are not racists simply smile or move away rather than finding the courage to speak out. Racism is wrong, we should speak out every time observe someone being racist. When we do not speak out we are condoning it and we become part of the problem. Calling someone a racist after they do/say racist things is not name calling, it is simply identifying who they are as a person.

This case is not different. The poster saw sexually inappropriate behavior but did nothing to stop it. He did not stand up and speak out. I guess that would have made him 'unbecoming,' what a shame that would be. What if the action was against your mother, sister, wife or daughter, would you worry about being labeled 'unbecoming'? As a witness to this action the poster was/is morally responsible to talk to his teacher and seek positive change.

We cannot improve our society when we more concerned with being unbecoming than we are about being morally right. For those that do not get it at this point, you probably never will.

Mark (unbecoming) J.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 05:13 PM   #113
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Another harassment question

This thread reminds me of a domestic violence call.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 06:35 PM   #114
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You wrote:

"My sensei IS a good guy. He's not a bully in my opinion at all. He's jut one of those guys who at inappropiately around women and doesn't realize what he's sayng is too much/too far. Some guys just turn into different people near women, we all work with guys like that."

This makes it ok????

What would make a guy a bad guy in your opinion? That behavior is not okay...
I think training in another art with a good instructor would be so much healthier for you.
When a dojo isn't safe for women... it's not safe for the men that are training there either...That behavior and those attitudes perpetuate the myths that women are objects and violence against women is okay because it is just "good old boy behavior". Mary
Ron,

I am sorry let me restate what I said and say it isn't a personal attack.

Tom28 says his sensei is just unappropriate (in his opinion), yet he titled the thread as harassment. Mary's argument here is twisting the issue into something way off-base that the sensei is a dangerous and unhealthy man and dojo.

Mary is wrongly condemning a man and perpetuating not only a myth, but a dangerous assumptions and a public view that is based on her feminist agenda. She is also being hypocritical as she is de-humanizing the sensei, on little more then out of text quotes on in the anonymous post. Her post is on the verge of calling for a witch hunt. This is a point of view, I disagree with respectfully.

Now several pages of posts later we find out that this whole thing is an affair of the heart, and like swiss cheese it has a lot of holes in it. It has nothing to do with the sexually objectifying of a women in a class.

We don't know the woman or Tom28, or the dojo or the sensei. Should there be an assumption of victimization? We could be manipulated by both Tom28 and the women who posted, saying she is the women Tom28 is talking about. I don't know, it is just an example of how much isn't known.

I think you and Mary should re-evaluate your views about another person you have never meet, or trained at his dojo. Your views about this sensei and this women are wrong and very dangerous, IMO.

If you take this personally, I apologize. I didn't write this to attack you or Mary personally. Despite Mary's personal attack on another sensei.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 07:07 PM   #115
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Again, was it really sexually appropriate behavior?

Tom28 said about his sensei, "who at inappropiately around women and doesn't realize what he's sayng is too much/too far." Well then he saying the sensei isn't a Don Juan.

The woman known as ttly said,
"At first, he used comments like "hey sexy!" or "hey beautiful!" which is no big deal. I must add here that I also have a part time job with a crew of mostly men ... therefore comments like these were not new to me. When the comments started, they were simple comments or one-liners. I saw no harm in them. Later, he would say these comments in class but also make them a bit more personal. Sometimes other students would laugh along, but most of the time they said nothing (they really are nice students to train with, and I know they were not laughing at me ... I laughed and passed a lighthearted "buzz off" message so they laughed about it... laughed to lighten the awkward situation) The sensei would ask me (for example) to grab his arm ... I said something like "how do you want me to grab you ... which hand?" he would say "you can grab me anyway you want ... I dream of you saying that!" as a response, I would laugh it off and add "not gonna happen!!".

Another time, when practicing how to roll ... he would ask me to bend over so he could show me how to position my body ... but say it in more of a "bend over!!" tone and add a comment like "I always wanted to say that" ... I would respond with "Hey now ... none of that!". I tried to keep the tone light and friendly because I honestly didn't want to embarass him in front of other students ... I thought that reponding with humour would lighten the akward situation and he would still hear me say that "that was not cool". My goal was to get my point accross in as simple a way as possible that did not involve anyone being insulted or made to feel bad.

There are other things as well ... all within the same degree .... I have no doubt in my mind that if I even showed any interest or reciprocation (in sex or a relationship) he would make more advances. At one point during Aikido I was hesitating to roll (cause it is intimidating to feel like you are launching your body in the air with little to no control) and he tapped my bum and said "go" ... as a response after the tap I said ... "easy now ... no touching!". He has not done that again. Some of the comments were more rude but they do not need repeating use your imagination. You know most of them.

You may be wondering why I have not approached him and talked to him. I had plans to talk to him about everything but within the last week his behaviour as such has changed. He has stopped being "sexual" and is simply complementing (using phrases such as "good evening beautiful")... and nothing more or worst.

You may also be wondering why I have not quit Aikido and avoided the whole situation. The comments and such happened often enough, but never enough to force me to quit. To me, I am a woman in a sport that is predominantly male dominated. If I quit, I feel like I have given up ... like I let him win!! I needed to show that I could take care of myself. You need to understand that I have never quit or let myself be intimidated by anyone .. and I sure as hell was not gonna start now."


There is so many wholes in this it is swiss cheese. Sexual harrassment, objectifying women, sexist male pigs, victimization, if it is, it is rice paper thin. I think here we have, at first, sexual miscommunication between two people (hopefully mature adults), and jealousy. I am sure the two will be good friends and the jealousy will continue.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 08:10 PM   #116
RonRagusa
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Mary Eastland wrote:
You wrote:

"My sensei IS a good guy. He's not a bully in my opinion at all. He's jut one of those guys who at inappropiately around women and doesn't realize what he's sayng is too much/too far. Some guys just turn into different people near women, we all work with guys like that."

This makes it ok????

What would make a guy a bad guy in your opinion? That behavior is not okay...
I think training in another art with a good instructor would be so much healthier for you.
When a dojo isn't safe for women... it's not safe for the men that are training there either...That behavior and those attitudes perpetuate the myths that women are objects and violence against women is okay because it is just "good old boy behavior". Mary

Ron,

I am sorry let me restate what I said and say it isn't a personal attack.

Tom28 says his sensei is just unappropriate (in his opinion), yet he titled the thread as harassment. Mary's argument here is twisting the issue into something way off-base that the sensei is a dangerous and unhealthy man and dojo.

Mary is wrongly condemning a man and perpetuating not only a myth, but a dangerous assumptions and a public view that is based on her feminist agenda. She is also being hypocritical as she is de-humanizing the sensei, on little more then out of text quotes on in the anonymous post. Her post is on the verge of calling for a witch hunt. This is a point of view, I disagree with respectfully.

Now several pages of posts later we find out that this whole thing is an affair of the heart, and like swiss cheese it has a lot of holes in it. It has nothing to do with the sexually objectifying of a women in a class.

We don't know the woman or Tom28, or the dojo or the sensei. Should there be an assumption of victimization? We could be manipulated by both Tom28 and the women who posted, saying she is the women Tom28 is talking about. I don't know, it is just an example of how much isn't known.

I think you and Mary should re-evaluate your views about another person you have never meet, or trained at his dojo. Your views about this sensei and this women are wrong and very dangerous, IMO.

If you take this personally, I apologize. I didn't write this to attack you or Mary personally. Despite Mary's personal attack on another sensei.
Phil -

The disconnect between what Mary posted and what you read is glaringly obvious in light of your last post. All throughout this thread Mary and I have been commenting on the inappropriateness of a person's behavior not condemming the person as "sexist male chauvinist pig" (which, by the way, are your words). You have taken every opportunity to distort what Mary posted and color it with your own agenda.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, the merry-go-round has run its course, stay on for another round though; I'll cede you the brass ring.

Ron
 
Old 11-28-2008, 08:17 PM   #117
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Phil -

The disconnect between what Mary posted and what you read is glaringly obvious in light of your last post. All throughout this thread Mary and I have been commenting on the inappropriateness of a person's behavior not condemming the person as "sexist male chauvinist pig" (which, by the way, are your words). You have taken every opportunity to distort what Mary posted and color it with your own agenda.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, the merry-go-round has run its course, stay on for another round though; I'll cede you the brass ring.

Ron
Ron,

You are taking this way too personally. You seem to have a contention with me, and maybe it be wise to take a brake, it is getting OT anyway. There is no bass ring, at least for me. Hopefully when you come back you will be refreshed.
 
Old 11-28-2008, 09:57 PM   #118
akiy
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Hi folks,

Please move away from discussions of a personal nature and move towards discussing the topic and the issues.

Thank you,

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Old 11-29-2008, 01:47 AM   #119
"Tom28"
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Thumbs up Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
This case is not different. The poster saw sexually inappropriate behavior but did nothing to stop it. He did not stand up and speak out. I guess that would have made him 'unbecoming,' what a shame that would be.
Since you choose not to read any of the follow on threads you probably missed the point where I did not physically train or witness these actions but heard about them through my friend since I am currently away from the dojo.
Another good reason to read a whole thread before you throw your two cents in.

Quote:
We cannot improve our society when we more concerned with being unbecoming than we are about being morally right. For those that do not get it at this point, you probably never will.

Mark (unbecoming) J.
....I'm so right and everyone else is wrong blah blah

Mark you clearly have some issues. Feel like relating the personal experience with this issue that's obviously burning you up inside?

It might be relevant to the discussion.
 
Old 12-01-2008, 09:24 AM   #120
akiy
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Thread closed due to the discussion turning into personal attacks.

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