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Old 04-18-2005, 01:55 AM   #51
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Women can wear hakamas earlier for modesty reasons.
Lynn, I have heard this argument so often, but nobody has ever been able to explain to me what this "modesty" business is all about. Is modesty something that only concerns women? Would you mind explaining?

Thanks,
Sonja
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Old 04-18-2005, 02:50 AM   #52
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

LOL I'm with stumpy.
Hakama look nice, but are a big ol' pain in the butt.
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Old 04-18-2005, 01:29 PM   #53
Rodurigo
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Sonja McGough wrote:
Lynn, I have heard this argument so often, but nobody has ever been able to explain to me what this "modesty" business is all about. Is modesty something that only concerns women? Would you mind explaining?

Thanks,
Sonja
Sonja, this argument relies on the fact that keikogi was used (and maube still used) as underear. From what i've read, women could use hakama earlier than men, because this ones could be distracted by the circunstane of practicing with women "half naked".

not that i agree of course =P. but thats what i've heard ^^
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:34 AM   #54
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Thanks Rodrigu for pointing that out. It still does not make sense to me, at least not in a modern dojo. I think I - as a woman - might get a bit distracted by a half naked man practicing with me, too if I chose to regard keikogi as underwear. Anyway.... thanks again.
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Old 04-20-2005, 10:07 AM   #55
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

I think women should also cover those ankles for modesty reasons

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 04-20-2005, 10:26 PM   #56
jimbaker
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Funny you should mention ankles. In the old days of Joshi Judo (Women's Judo) the pants legs had to be pegged so that there would be no shameful exposure of the calf.

Look at the pictures at http://judoinfo.com/goshinho3.htm to compare the man's pants with the woman's.

We won't even go into the white stripe down the center of the belt to denote that they were, you know, women.

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:25 AM   #57
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

............................. (*speachless*)
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Old 04-21-2005, 05:14 AM   #58
Nick Simpson
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

I say we bring back this valiant tradition before all us upstanding male aikidoka are corrupted by these "women" and their "calves".

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:53 PM   #59
Qatana
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Mooooo.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 04-22-2005, 02:29 AM   #60
Sonja2012
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I say we bring back this valiant tradition before all us upstanding male aikidoka are corrupted by these "women" and their "calves".
Please don´t! My calves are much more effective than any nikkyo could ever be
I would be loosing my strongest technique!
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:00 PM   #61
giriasis
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

We could bring back the tradition of women wearing a kimono in class. On Sugano Sensei's Heavan and Earth video/ DVD there's an old clip of O'Sensei demonstarting and then a woman. The woman was wearing not a hakama, but a kimono.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:12 PM   #62
Michael Neal
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

I would prefer Aikido did not use Hakama at all
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:35 PM   #63
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
We could bring back the tradition of women wearing a kimono in class.
It's not aikido, but . . .

http://www.koryu.com/photos/yoshin.html

Kentokuseisei
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:12 PM   #64
Bodhi
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

I think hakama looks good on a woman but should be shortened for a more kilt like appearance lol They also wouldnt be such a hassel when fighting from the ground. I recently worked with some Aikido people and used their hakamas to my advantage. It was easy when i would get them to the ground, kind of like how BJJ teaches you to use the Gi or other clothing to your advantage. IMHO, i think you should be training in clothes you might be found wearing in day to day life. Most martial cultures have always trained in what they wore. It wasnt until more modern times that some started using what was worn in the past, more for respect than anything, especially the Japanese.
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:04 PM   #65
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Jason Potenza wrote:
... IMHO, i think you should be training in clothes you might be found wearing in day to day life. Most martial cultures have always trained in what they wore. It wasnt until more modern times that some started using what was worn in the past, more for respect than anything, especially the Japanese.
Short, tight skirts and those awful pointy toed high heels that are fashionable these days...
Jeanne
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Old 04-22-2005, 09:35 PM   #66
Bodhi
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

If thats what your wearin, then ya
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:19 PM   #67
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Sean Toner wrote: View Post
How many people here are in classes that don't allow non-yudansha to wear the hakama? If so, do you feel that it's the Sensei's right to not allow non-yudansha to wear the hakama?
The Sensei's right? It's his class. If you don't like his methods or rules then find a new school.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:31 PM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Heck, we were in a seminar just the other week (in a Yoshinkan dojo) and when Inoue Sensei comes, NO ONE wears hakama except him. Not even the 7th dan instructor, whose dojo it is. Just Inoue Sensei. Out of over 60 people.

Best,
Ron (I kinda like that)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:51 PM   #69
Andrew S
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Ahh, Aikido. Where elso do we hear, "We know who wears the skirts in that dojo"?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


合気道研心会 Aikido Kenshinkai
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Old 11-09-2008, 06:31 AM   #70
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Stuart Norton wrote: View Post
LOL I'm with stumpy.
Hakama look nice, but are a big ol' pain in the butt.
+ 1

Hakamas are overrated...I guess

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:39 AM   #71
Chris Farnham
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

At my old dojo in the states I wore a Hakama at Ikkyu. Now I am living in Japan and still Ikkyu, None of the dojos I've trained at or visited here have their own students wear hakama below Shodan; including Hombu and the Iberaki Shibu dojo. According to the Aikikai Foundation website they wear Hakama at Shodan for men and sankyu for women, but visitors can do as they are accustomed to. My view has always been to follow the custom of the dojo.
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:56 PM   #72
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote: View Post

Made a search or two here on Aikiweb. You'll find that many people dismisses this 'seven virtues' stuff as a fairly recent invention.
Many people do dismiss such things. According to the following account, however, it doesn't appear as if it is either new or dis-missable. At least, I won't be. In my dojo everyone is required to wear one at 6 months. They can wear one before if they have my permission. If they are too expensive for folks, we have loaners.

The following is an excerpt from Saotome Sensei_

This was only the first of many scoldings I was to receive from O Sensei. However, my ignorance on this occasion prompted O Sensei to lecture his uchi deshi after class on the meaning of the hakama. He told us that the hakama was traditional garb for kobudo students and asked if any of us knew the reason for the seven pleats in the hakama.

"They symbolize the seven virtues of budo," O Sensei said. "These are jin (benevolence), gi (honor or justice), rei (courtesy and etiquette), chi (wisdom, intelligence), shin (sincerity), chu (loyalty), and koh (piety). We find these qualities in the distinguished samurai of the past. The hakama prompts us to reflect on the nature of true bushido. Wearing it symbolizes traditions that have been passed down to us from generation to generation. Aikido is born of the bushido spirit of Japan, and in our practice we must strive to polish the seven traditional virtues."
Currently, most Aikido dojo do not follow O Sensei's strict policy about wearing the hakama. Its meaning has degenerated from a symbol of traditional virtue to that of a status symbol for yudansha. I have traveled to many dojo in many nations. In many of the places where only the yudansha wear hakama, the yudansha have lost their humility. They think of the hakama as a prize for display, as the visible symbol of their superiority. This type of attitude makes the ceremony of bowing to O Sensei, with which we begin and end each class, a mockery of his memory and his art.
Worse still, in some dojo, women of kyu rank (and only the women) are required to wear hakama, supposedly to preserve their modesty. To me this is insulting and discriminatory to women Aikidoka. It is also insulting to male Aikidoka, for it assumes a low-mindedness on their part that has no place on the Aikido mat.
To see the hakama put to such petty use saddens me. It may seem a trivial issue to some people, but I remember very well the great importance that O Sensei placed on wearing hakama. I cannot dismiss the significance of this garment, and no one, I think, can dispute the great value of the virtues it symbolizes. In my dojo and its associated schools I encourage all students to wear hakama regardless of their rank or grade. (I do not require it before they have achieved their first grading, since beginners in the United States do not generally have Japanese grandfathers whose hakama they can borrow.) I feel that wearing the hakama and knowing its meaning, helps students to be aware of the spirit of O Sensei and keep alive his vision.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:27 AM   #73
ken zen ichii
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Hakama is worn traditionally here in Japan not only in Aiki Do but in other arts as well. Kyu Do, Ken Do, Iai Do regardless of rank. It is worn during traditional ceremonies in Karate Do. As a karate ka, I find it difficult to see what my opponents next move will be if I cant see his ankle. Not only martial arts uses hakama, I wear it during Sa Do or tea ceremony and flower arrangers wear it on their Ikebana class as well. It shows elegance thats why Japanese women wears them on graduation day and male wears them on their wedding day. Hakama does not signifies rank but shows tradition and custom, even in the Aiki Kai honbu hakama is worn customarily by male from shodan and by female by san kyu but can be worn by any rank if they wish to. So by custom, only sho dan and female 3rd kyu levels wears it, it is not stated by rule not to wear it.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:45 PM   #74
graham butt
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

hakama for non yudansha.... hmmm

I've trained at a few courses and there was nothing more irratating than picking out someone to train with, i always went for hakama wearers. Under the impression they should know wot they are doing, there was nothing worse than me being 5th kyu understanding the technique btr than the hakama wearer.

To me it's a yudansha thing, something to be given as an achievement/token for your hard work and effort.

-G-
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Old 11-18-2008, 07:07 PM   #75
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Hakama for non-yudansha

Quote:
Graham Butt wrote: View Post
hakama for non yudansha.... hmmm

I've trained at a few courses and there was nothing more irratating than picking out someone to train with,
Really, nothing?

Quote:
i always went for hakama wearers. Under the impression they should know wot they are doing,
that'll teach ya.LOL

Quote:
there was nothing worse than me being 5th kyu understanding the technique btr than the hakama wearer.
Let's see, is 'worse' worse than irritating?
Honestly, I had a similar problem once waaaaaayyyyy back in 'the day', and then i learned to look for other signals. Like how they wear their hakama, how they walk, how relaxed or alert a person are they. How much confidence do they have, how is their posture....those kind of things that can be translated to any environment for 'sizing up' a situation.

Quote:
To me it's a yudansha thing, something to be given as an achievement/token for your hard work and effort.
-G-
And yet, I've met yudansha who do not qualify for a hakama based on your criteria and I've met mudansha who do. Par for the hierarchical course.

I really do get what your saying. I've just had a chance to see more and I hold a different perspective. In my dojo everyone wears a hakama, wether they like it or not. My dojo, my rules. When visiting other dojo cultures, we adjust.

thanks

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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