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Old 11-14-2008, 07:25 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Another harassment question

This is a rare case for me...this is an anonymous forum for good reason and it needs to stay this way. But...

I have *some* familiarity with the anonymous user here. He and I have had conversations in the past, and we don't always agree on everything. But I take his perceptions of this situation seriously and at face value. And I think he deserves respect for trying to find a solution in what is probably a no win situation for him personally.

I also think people taking pot shots at him is disrespectfull and ill-advised. But then, I look at the posting histories involved, and shrug my shoulders. Just more of the same.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 11-14-2008, 10:18 AM   #27
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
You're the only one who responded the way you did. Maybe I'm wrong, it seemed so far off course of everyone else that I couldn't imagine you doing other pissing around. Now you're turning it around into an "But I was serious post"
You don't have to imagine. That is the point.

Examine without preconceived notions -- shoshin.
Remain unwavering in the face of passions and delusion -- fudoshin.
Engage free of ego -- mushin.
Act in the moment to restore this mind -- aikido.

 
Old 11-14-2008, 12:57 PM   #28
Keith Larman
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Re: Another harassment question

Don't feed the aikiweb troll...

Anyway, to the original post... Comments of that nature are totally inappropriate. Really there is no wiggle room there. Obviously not being there none of us can say too much, but if the original post is even remotely accurate then I would join the chorus and say it is time to leave. Give your reasons if you can, but.. in the end staying and not saying anything is (at least to some extent) implicitly supporting the behavior. And I certainly wouldn't recommend recruiting new students for the fella...

Walk away. Tell him why if you can. What you need to do may be difficult for you to do, but I don't find the situation itself particularly difficult to understand. So there isn't much more to say and the ball is really in your court...

My .02. And worth every penny of that...

Last edited by Keith Larman : 11-14-2008 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Spelling and grammar...

 
Old 11-14-2008, 04:39 PM   #29
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

You wrote:

"My sensei IS a good guy. He's not a bully in my opinion at all. He's jut one of those guys who at inappropiately around women and doesn't realize what he's sayng is too much/too far. Some guys just turn into different people near women, we all work with guys like that."

This makes it ok????

What would make a guy a bad guy in your opinion? That behavior is not okay...
I think training in another art with a good instructor would be so much healthier for you.
When a dojo isn't safe for women... it's not safe for the men that are training there either...That behavior and those attitudes perpetuate the myths that women are objects and violence against women is okay because it is just "good old boy behavior". Mary
 
Old 11-14-2008, 07:12 PM   #30
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Tom28,

Your getting hammered from bothsides.
 
Old 11-14-2008, 07:25 PM   #31
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You wrote:

"My sensei IS a good guy. He's not a bully in my opinion at all. He's jut one of those guys who at inappropiately around women and doesn't realize what he's sayng is too much/too far. Some guys just turn into different people near women, we all work with guys like that."

This makes it ok????

What would make a guy a bad guy in your opinion? That behavior is not okay...
I think training in another art with a good instructor would be so much healthier for you.
When a dojo isn't safe for women... it's not safe for the men that are training there either...That behavior and those attitudes perpetuate the myths that women are objects and violence against women is okay because it is just "good old boy behavior". Mary
I find your words and tone very offensive, dated, rude, insensitive, sexist, etc. You do a huge amount of injustice and harm to women with what you say and your opinions. Please rethink how you see women. They are not damned to being victims, and are the weaker sex etc. Things have changed. Just because you run into one bully situation (male or female) in the dojo doesn't make it a global crisis. Please think about what you said, it is really as offensive as the situation Tom28 in which you find just as offensive. Please don't stereotype all men as "Good O'l Boy behavior." And that all men see women as objects and targets for violence. All men are not predators, criminals, monsters out to harm women. .

Last edited by Buck : 11-14-2008 at 07:33 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2008, 07:38 PM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I find your words and tone very offensive, dated, rude, insensitive, sexist, etc. You do a huge amount of injustice and harm to women with what you say and your opinions. Please rethink how you see women. They are not damned to being victims, and are the weaker sex etc. Things have changed. Just because you run into one bully situation (male or female) in the dojo doesn't make it a global crisis. Please think about what you said, it is really as offensive as the situation Tom28 in which you find just as offensive. Please don't stereotype all men as "Good O'l Boy behavior." And that all men see women as objects and targets for violence. All men are not predators, criminals, monsters out to harm women. .
Then use your ignore button, Buck.
Mary
 
Old 11-14-2008, 08:05 PM   #33
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Re: Another harassment question

Yea, sure. Just as you ignore all the posters, like Tom28.
 
Old 11-14-2008, 08:35 PM   #34
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Re: Another harassment question

Back OT...as sincere as Tom28 is in his posts, we are only getting an outside view. This issue is between the Sensei and the student, with a variety of different relationships and interpersonal stuff going on between them that no one else can see or is aware of. I then find it really hard to give advice, or place any kind of judgement on the situation or on Tom28 for that matter.

As I said before, joining an Aikido class isn't a heavy commitment like choosing a spouse. You as the student decide how you want the relationship to proceed and to what extent and level between you and the Sensei to happen. The student pays money to be instructed my a human, and not a stereotypical figure of a wise moral all knowing, infallible, parental, holiness of a sensei. That stuff is illusions and projections- the all mightily OZ of Aikido. O'Sensei may have thought of himself as a god. But that doesn't remove his human reality. Just as students should project upon the Sensei. The sensei has very limited power, and no special power over others unless it is given.

The Sensei is a human, who has agreed to teach a skill, like a physical trainer, a exercise class instructor, a person that instructs. They don't instruct you on your life, they teach a skill. They all have their own personalities and those personalities are not global.

If you see someone staying with a sensei and that sensei seems abrasive or abusive to a student you have to wonder why that student hasn't left after the first instance. Even if there is only one dojo in town that isn't an excuse to be treated poorly. Therefore, something unseen or not apparent to the observer is happening psychologically in that relationship between in the adult student and with the sensei.

Human's are complex creatures and how we deal with each other is very complex as well. You really got to read the whole book and not just the cover. You know get all the facts, observer first hand, etc. before you make judgements of who is, if any, the bad and the good. And if the relationship is anyone's business.

Tom28 brought up a concern. As sincere as he is there isn't enough factual information to be able to take sides and point fingers, or give advice. We don't know the personalities of the people or the dynamics of the relationship to offer sound advice, or blame, etc. The situation really is between the student and the sensei, and if the student feels wronged, again, they just don't have to come back to class. What I clue into is that the student hasn't left, therefore, accepts the relationship, and thus, no one else's business.

Last edited by Buck : 11-14-2008 at 08:43 PM.
 
Old 11-14-2008, 09:54 PM   #35
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
... she ended up stopping attending class after that.
Quote:
Buck wrote:
What I clue into is that the student hasn't left, therefore, accepts the relationship, and thus, no one else's business.
One student, at least, has indeed left. How long before the second woman tires of the abuse and leaves too? An Aikido class is an exercie in group dynamics. As such when one individual's behavior begins to make others in the group uncomfortable it becomes the business of the group. This stuff doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Ron
 
Old 11-15-2008, 07:10 AM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Tom28 wrote : So how can I convince her to stop being shy, stop being embarrassed and tell him to stop making those kind of comments in class? How does she impact on him the seriousness of it and how it's effecting her and likely the rest of the class.
I know if I was one of the other guys training I'd sure as hell be resentful.


Hi Tom:
It is not her problem...it is his.

When I first starting training...there was no way I would even think that kind of talk was wrong. I had been socialized to believe I was an object and that whatever guys said or did was ok. I would laugh along with the jokes too because I wanted to train and fit in. And because I didn't know I was hurting myself.
Now I could say something...I do all the time. Our dojo has a respectful attitude for all people. Men and women who act different don't stay.
Have you noticed how when we talk about these issues even on this forum people make fun of us and say we are overreacting.
A woman who has just started training in Aikido doesn't need the extra responsibility of changing an instructor's behavior.

Mary
 
Old 11-15-2008, 09:16 AM   #37
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Today we'll practice shomenuchi ikkyo omote. Demonstration, clap, pair up and practice!

A shomenuchi with a roaring kiai! Have you ever observed how different beginners respond? Some flee the atack. Some cover their heads and cower. Some stand dumbfounded. A few do something else, like an unrefined counter-strike. Whatever the starting point, over time we're going to work to make that beginner's technique become something like what was demonstrated. We'll practice shomenuchi ikkyo undo basic exercise again and again. We'll transform the slumped over cowering into the bright-postured shomenuchi ikkyo undo. We'll transform fleeing into fearless entry. We'll transform being dumbfounded, stuck in thought, into immediate and appropriate response. We'll transform the unrefined counter-sttack into fierce kiai and off-balancing atemi in the spirit of irimi.

Step outside the dojo for a moment, since this is "real life."

Where are you coming from? Here you are. There is no going back to change the circumstances of right now.

What is coming at you? What is it that you face? No wishful thinking will change the circumstances of right now.

The circumstances are set. Events are in motion: An instructor mindlessly makes a pass at a female student. The female cowers. A third-party male friend of both watches dumbfounded.

Where is the error, who is at fault, and what is aikido's path through this?

Does it matter in aikido's practice whether or not the attack has intent? Will we respond differently in the moment if it does? No, that is decidedly not how we train. We "protect" the attacker and act with "loving kindness." Why? Ultimately, we do not know the attacker's mind. We do not know the causes and conditions that led to this moment. We do not add our assumptions to the situation. We do not judge good or bad, right or wrong, or degree of fault. We simply act---or, perhaps better said, we act simply.

The instructor operated in habitual mind; he lost zanshin. It happens. Restoring harmony with the universe is to restore zanshin, his awareness. In the lucid moments, he may recognize that his behavior has a negative impact on the club; the goal for him and for everyone is to remain lucid.

The woman psychologically cowers. The friend stands dumbfounded. Are they at fault? Restoring harmony with the universe means what for them? Perhaps it means restoring their original minds (to borrow terminology) as well---examining what baggage they carry that caused them to fail to act when they sensed an attack and working through it until their responses start to look like aikido.

This is what aikido practice is for me. If your understanding of aikido is different, I will naturally expect different response. Through continued practice, hopefully we all meet in the same place.

Bow to shomen. Bow to teacher. Bow to each other.

 
Old 11-15-2008, 09:51 AM   #38
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
One student, at least, has indeed left. How long before the second woman tires of the abuse and leaves too? An Aikido class is an exercie in group dynamics. As such when one individual's behavior begins to make others in the group uncomfortable it becomes the business of the group. This stuff doesn't occur in a vacuum.

Ron
Ron,

I think you hit on something that I wasn't saying very well. First there is an assumptions; a template of abuser and victim scenario, based on the information given. Second, each individual women is different, in personality, background etc. All women are not victims or down-trodden weak, helpless, fragile mentally and physically, mute needing someone to champion for her; protecting her, standing up for her.

Third, for those like me I don't know who is being talked about. I have no experience or background with the people involved. I don't have that inside information.

Fourth, it seems one women felt abused, or powerless because the Sensei didn't respect her verbally. This was her personal experience it doesn't make it universal. There are women who are attracted to self-centered Condescending men, for various reason and thus aren't victims. These women can handle themselves with men as described. Let's get women some credit that they can handle a bad situation.

Lastly, for me, how bad is bad. This is being treated as if the Sensei is holding the women hostage against her will and criminally abusing her in the most horrible and torturous ways. Is this guy a serial killer, a predatory monster, or simple your average garden variety jerk. A situation blown out of proportions. Or is it simply a many of someone being a jerk or being perceived as a jerk.

Talking about jerks let's take my boss, for example. A women who is a professional jerk, a verbal bully, who enjoys intimidating everyone beneath her. She is just flat out mean. And there is no excuses for her behavior, and she bullies really well to avoid any harassment complaints against her. But, frankly, you can let it get to you or not. I deal with all and anything she throws at me. I still do my job, I still have a job. Life isn't perfect, and I don't see myself as a victim even when she targets me on those days she feels like it.

If I leave my job, I risk losing allot, it isn't like doing the same at an Aikido dojo. Which I have because I felt I didn't fit in.

Overall, the issue, I feel is being blown out of proportion, because simply it is a recreational hobby and activity; Aikido class.

Ron, you pointed out something else. I think when it comes the business of the group, people are taking themselves and what the do on an interpersonal relationship level way too seriously. It is like a cliquey petty high school drama thingy. People should be more mature. If the Sensei is involved in criminal actions against anyone that is a real problem and is everyone business, but in several cases of criminal abuse by Senseis people see no evil, speak no evil, and hear no evil.

And if this guy is really as bad as said, and she is really that helpless to be victimized and harassed by words, no one is holding her hostage to keep coming to the class over any period of time. She is free to leave the class when it ends, and has the freedom not to ever come back. Also, really, can any of us really do anything about it? SHE really has the power to do or not to do anything about it. Again, it ISN'T like she is married to this Sensei and he threatens if she leaves him, he will kill her while beating her. Is he physically assaulting her, beating her in class? Really it is a matter of words, and she hasn't been insulted enough to leave. He isn't the only Sensei in the world, and it is just an Aikido class. She can walk away. She has the power to walk if she feels the situation isn't a good one.
 
Old 11-15-2008, 06:11 PM   #39
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Tom28 wrote : So how can I convince her to stop being shy, stop being embarrassed and tell him to stop making those kind of comments in class? How does she impact on him the seriousness of it and how it's effecting her and likely the rest of the class.
I know if I was one of the other guys training I'd sure as hell be resentful.
Tom28 I started a thread that is active on shy women. First you can't change her behavior, her shyness. If she feels embarrassed that is her issue; she has the power not to feel embarrassed. This is the core of the issue, her being embarrassed and not being harassed. The biggest impact she has is to go somewhere else. Why does she have to confront him verbally? Words are not always the most effective means of communication. A signal middle finger flipped upright, for example, can really gets the message across, a stern glare works well too.

I think Mary is way off base in her perspectives, and opinions. She is doing a ton of assuming and projecting her own personal stuff/views upon this girl, woman, lady, female, etc. don't know how old she is, or she social status, situation. Mary needs healing of her own of some unresolved issues, she hasn't resolved. But that is Mary, and Mary isn't the woman, girl, etc being discussed. Just as I am not this girl, etc.

We really don't know anything about this person. In fact we really don't know anything about her. She may be dealing with the situation very well, but it is misunderstood by those looking in from the outside. She may like the Sensei and doesn't take him seriously. She may not have any of Mary's issues or concerns, or perspectives toward men and what this sensei is saying. We really don't know. This thing between the two is their issue, assuming she is an adult. Sure it may be done in public and it's uncomfortable to the other students that is the sensei's issue. Anyone can leave the class for any reason. But they are not at this point. Why?

Tom28, I think the issue is you are uncomfortable by what is going on because of the way you perceive it. Go up to the sensei and speak you mind. If you don't get the results you are looking for find a new dojo that is more comfortable. There are options. And not everyone fits in every dojo. I would feel harassed, and abused in Mary's dojo. But, maybe not in someone else who sees guys in a more positive and updated view of males, men, boys etc. Tom28, has she came to you and complained about how the sensei treats her verbally. If she has, why is she still continuing? People are complex, very complexed. Just like you may never really know another person, or what is going on inside their head.

Last edited by Buck : 11-15-2008 at 06:23 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2008, 08:28 PM   #40
"anon110"
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Re: Another harassment question

a note on the sensei in question. you say he is a "decent guy" but has committed some very indecent acts around women. i'd like to suggest that it is possible, through lack of experience, that he might not know how to behave around women. a friend of mine in college was damn near arrested because of this type of behavior. he was a shy, awkward guy with no sisters and little contact with his mother. what he knew of relating to women was gleaned from adolescent friends, x-rated movies and sleazy books. this was his"normal" and he simply didn't know any better. thankfully, campus authorities directed him to counseling, which probably saved his life. i bring this up only because so many seem to be assuming this sensei is a predator, and he may be. or he might be some guy who has had limited contact with women and just doesn't know any better.
 
Old 11-15-2008, 08:51 PM   #41
RonRagusa
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Re: Another harassment question

Victimization - to single somebody out unfairly for punishment or ill treatment. - Encarta Dictionary

Victimization is behavior that is engaged in by the perpetrator. Regardless of how the recipient reacts to the behavior the perpetrator's actions are wrong and ought not to be condoned or excused away. It makes absolutely no difference what is known or not known about the person being singled out; the fault lies with the one engaged in the abusive behavior. The comments and the butt grabbing referred to by Tom28 are offensive at least and in the case of the grabbing could be considered a form of physical assault.

I am reminded of an instructor who made a comment about a female students' anatomy one day in front of a class full of students as she got up to uke for him. It was not the first time this instructor had engaged in this type of behavior. As I understand it, his senior students took him aside after class and told him in no uncertain terms that this behavior was unacceptable and had to stop. Their forthrightness was heard by the instructor and he subsequently ceased behaving in that manner.

An Aikido instructor is a person; not a god, not imbued with any divine rights, not entitled to any de facto respect that hasn't been earned on the mat. The instructor is no more important to the dojo than the students who seek to benefit from the instructor's knowledge. When a member/members of the group is/are singled out for abusive treatment as in the case of the two women in Tom28's dojo, the whole dojo suffers. It therefore becomes the responsibility of the group to exert its influence on the instructor in an effort to curtail the behavior. Groups looking the other way while individuals engage in unacceptable behavior is all too prevalent throughout history.

For those of you who seek to minimize the events described by Tom28, replace Aikido school with [organization of your choice], Aikido instructor with [leader of said organization] and unnamed female student with your wife/daughter/sister/niece. Does the situation begin to look a little different?

Ron
 
Old 11-15-2008, 09:09 PM   #42
"anon110"
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Re: Another harassment question

When a member/members of the group is/are singled out for abusive treatment as in the case of the two women in Tom28's dojo, the whole dojo suffers. It therefore becomes the responsibility of the group to exert its influence on the instructor in an effort to curtail the behavior. Groups looking the other way while individuals engage in unacceptable behavior is all too prevalent throughout history.

For those of you who seek to minimize the events described by Tom28, replace Aikido school with [organization of your choice], Aikido instructor with [leader of said organization] and unnamed female student with your wife/daughter/sister/niece. Does the situation begin to look a little different?

Ron[/quote]

agreed. but if a confrontation regarding the behavior is planned, it is important to consider the message being delivered. if the message is "you're a pig. cut the $*** or your classes are about to get a whole lot smaller", it doesn't give the individual enough information to facilitate change, particularly if this guy is just really clueless as opposed just being a jerk. if the message is instead, "we don't think you understand how your words and actions are seen by others" accompanied by some educational materials from a local womens' center, it 1)allows him to change without feeling bullied himself 2) gives him the benefit of the doubt, which even if he doesn't deserve it, might prompt him to live up to it and 3)allows him to save face, which again, he may or may not deserve.
 
Old 11-15-2008, 10:19 PM   #43
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Victimization - to single somebody out unfairly for punishment or ill treatment. - Encarta Dictionary

Victimization is behavior that is engaged in by the perpetrator.
Quote:
Mirriam Webster Online Dictionary wrote:
flirt 2 a: to behave amorously without serious intent
Flirting is the behavior that is engaged in by the perpetrator.

There. Now I've made an assertion, too. So, it's true, right?

Of course not. I don't know this fellow's mind.

Quote:
For those of you who seek to minimize the events described by Tom28, replace Aikido school with [organization of your choice], Aikido instructor with [leader of said organization] and unnamed female student with your wife/daughter/sister/niece. Does the situation begin to look a little different?
Imagine? Ugh.

Fine, why not---but why not go all out then?
That last girl who stopped coming? She died in a car wreck on the way to her instructor's apartment from the dojo one night. She was the instructor's lover, and he was devastated by the loss. The girl was my daughter's friend. My daughter had a romantic interest in the fellow years before, but put that aside when she went off to study at the Sorbonne. Returning for her friend's funeral, she saw the fellow again. Romance rekindled right away. She started attending his class after being invited by a coworker, from whom she wished to keep this relationship a secret so as not to cause angst at the office. My daughter warns him occasionally about his public displays of affection that others may consider inappropriate, as she is slightly embarrassed by them herself, but they've lost themselves in love. If you like, I'll send you an invite to the wedding this spring.
We can imagine anything we like to fit Tom28's account. Moreover, if we carry a banner (such as victimization, women's rights, men's rights, or anything else), then we're likely to see what we're looking for.

This is not to say that Ron's assertion is false, mind you. This is to say that asserting something does not make it true. The invitation to imagine different circumstances is an error.

I assert that Budo practitioners should strive for this mental clarity.

 
Old 11-15-2008, 10:38 PM   #44
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

FWIW, am opening up some of my private life here. The jugular now is being exposed.

I am sure am not the only male who has experienced this. While undressing my bare butt was grabbed by a gay guy ( I do laugh about it) in the locker room and was told straight up what he would like to do to it. Being straight and taken by surprise I was shocked, and walked off. I also had several gay professor promised me better grades if I did. …well you know. One was very direct and explicit about it, where as the other was more indirect. Being on different occasions, I told both of them no. I paid the price for it in class for those semesters. I was belittled, and demeaned for saying no. And yes, lower grades then I should have, in both cases.

I was a freshman in college and construction was going on at the edge of campus. Walking home the construction workers started bullying me, poking fun at me, harassing me. for two blocks.

My family was on welfare when I was a kid for a short while as my father lost his job. For the first time I had to use food stamps at the supermarket, and the cashier harshly humiliated me publicly in front of everyone, getting other cashiers to join in. He was a guy, the others where both male and female. I was just a child.

I tried to play high school sports I was hazed and harassed by players and coaches. I was mocked, humiliated, emasculated, etc. I would cry so over-whelmed because I couldn't fight back physically or verbally, boy did it make things worse for me. Thank God, I didn’t get the worse of it, one kid was forced to drink out of a taped up athletic cup, and the cup wasn’t new. Or get my head dunked in the toilet and then flushed. One kid was sexual molested, mocked and abused very painfully. Swore to God, I would never go into the military, based on the stories of boot-camp.

I have had male and female teachers degrade me by verbally insulting me, harassment (sexual and not), and again emasculated me. I remember a female elementary teacher who was especially cruel and mean with what she said. She said I would never measure up to being a real man. I had a male P.E. make my life hell because I wasn't athletic, I couldn't do the allotted number of push-ups.

I have had women say some of the most sexist and vicious things to me who where angry and bitter about men. It started as a kid up until recently happening as an adult. I did mention my female boss and what she is like. It has happen and continues to happen to me.

And I have run across my share of a number of A.H. in the dojos I have been at.

Many of us guys, do and have experienced the same things women have. We don’t talk about really. We laugh it off, or go into shock when it is brought up. This makes me feel qualified in my opinions, people are complex, and have their reason for coming back to something or sticking with it, reasons that may not be made publicly despite public behavior.

This sensei people may know and classify him as a prime A.H. Others may not. Others may not take him so seriously, others my find it expectable. Others may be disturbed by it. But everyone has a choice in that dojo and that is their business and not ours. Until a crime is committed that requires an arrest or is a matter of civil court. My new question is has this women he is hassling call the cops, and how long has she been there. From what Tom28 tells us, I think 10 minutes is too long. If this sensei is that much of a threat why is not in jail? Don't tell me be cause he is too good to get caught.

I don't know the reason why this woman is staying in that dojo if the sensei is degrading her so badly. Again I think it is a matter of perspective, and we don't know this woman or how she sees the sensei. We only know how Tom28 sees it.

Last edited by Buck : 11-15-2008 at 10:45 PM.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 07:27 AM   #45
RonRagusa
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Tom28 wrote:
You're a girl you should be flexable! You're a girl you should this or that. Common comments guys make. They started getting more and more personal and I could tell my friend felt awkward. She would try and call him on it by saying "hey cut that out you're a pig" in a half joking way but this had no effect. Once or twice he slapped her ass- she ended up stopping attending class after that. [snip]

After a while however she started to realize the comments were getting out of control. He's always calling her pretty, beautiful, georgeous making comments like you're a girl you should be able to roll up off your back better. You're a girl you should be able to spread your legs more! He says it in a joking manner but it's clearly becoming a problem. Sooner or later I expect him to start slapping her ass or becoming more bold.
Flirting Joe? And whether it's flirting or not is irrelevant since the attention is both unasked for and, at least in the first case, clearly unwanted. The instructor's behavior would be illegal in the workplace, why should it be any different in an Aikido dojo? How many incidents with how many different women will it take before you're willing to admit that maybe this guy has a problem?

Quote:
Tom28 wrote:
I forsee her either getting fed up to the point here she too quits class or worse where the other male students quit because their tired of the constant comments and attention inflicted on her by the instructor.
The spirit of this dojo is being adversely affected by the instructor's behavior.

Ron
 
Old 11-16-2008, 09:22 AM   #46
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Flirting ... whether it's flirting or not is irrelevant since the attention is both unasked for and, at least in the first case, clearly unwanted. The instructor's behavior would be illegal in the workplace, why should it be any different in an Aikido dojo? How many incidents with how many different women will it take before you're willing to admit that maybe this guy has a problem?

The spirit of this dojo is being adversely affected by the instructor's behavior.

Ron
Ron,

you make good points, if we knew that really was the case, all the facts and details. We shouldn't assume what is going on in this case. And suspend judgement; innocent until proven guilty. Again we see this situation through Tom28's eyes, and not hers.

If being and offensive was illegal we (women and men) would all be in jail. None of us are saints, and we have to be careful of hypocrisy.

We really need to hear from the woman, the dojo, the sensei all first hand and see them in person before we can start championing a cause and public hangings. Reason over knee jerk reaction is a proven powerful human tool.

We also have to be careful in saying if it is true what the sensei did is illegal vs. inappropriate, rude, uncalled for, etc. The work place is different from an Aikido class as I pointed out before. This is different from having a personal opinion about the situation based on what Tom28 said.

Only two women have been associated with this sensei and discussed here in his small dojo. Nothing physically or criminally has happened. We know one women didn't physically his comments, etc. again she had the freedom to show her disapproval and not continue with the class. The same right all people have. I don't think the first women's situation is criminal, but someone who was insulted by the sensei. Especially if Tom28 brought in another similar women to the dojo, where Tom28 became offended.

I think something that the law would need to look at is if he was assaulting and abusing women physically and mentally via Aikido and Aikido waza. Say used excess force causing trauma to her body while doing a throw. Kicking her on the ground etc. to choking her until she passing out telling to use Aikido to get out of it. All excusing his actions as part of Aikido training. Or if he sexually abusing females/children as previous sanseis have done and been convicted of doing. If this sensei is sexually abusing women it is the responsibility of those who know of this and report him. Especially if the victims are unable to do it themselves. But it doesn't seem that this is the case.

Tom28 seems to have stayed with the dojo in face of what is going on with his female friend that he brought to the dojo despite his previous knowledge of the sensei. He values more the class and the sensei over the situation, and he hasn't quit the dojo in protest. Nor has he confronted the sensei about the situation. Instead has brought up the issue to an Aikido internet group.

Assumptions are dangerous it has convicted wrongly many innocent people and allowed guilty people to walk. Not to mention hurt and embarrassed allot of people. I think that is why reason, facts etc. are a better tools to evaluate a situation over assumptions and hear-say. Slavery is full of such stories where slaves where beaten, or killed over the slightest rumors and assumptions, and unfounded accusations. I suspend my judgement on what Tom28 says. In his eyes it might be a crime. But he isn't the sensei or the women involved. Or unless Tom28 isn't a male, and really is the woman. If that is the case she should have left the dojo and approached this subject differently to get better results, like providing us with the facts that we can use to make an accurate evaluation. honestly to get the best results isn't asking an internet forum like it has been done here, but going to professionals or asking the net to be directed to the right professionals to contact.

Last edited by Buck : 11-16-2008 at 09:35 AM.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 09:52 AM   #47
Buck
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Re: Another harassment question

If someone is being harassed or insulted in a dojo, my advice would be

1.) stop going. Sure you may have feeling of anger, victimization, etc. and you might want to get back at that person any way you can.

2.) Don't get back at them. It the best way to do things. Seeking revenge isn't justice when someone insults you. Walking out and not coming back is.

But, if you do seek revenge for an insult or sexist remark it is a reflection upon your character. Think about Rosa Parks, MLK, Gandi, etc. where their injustices where graver, did they have revenge in their hearts, no they didn't. And that was what made them so strong to carry on to change the world.
 
Old 11-16-2008, 10:11 AM   #48
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Flirting Joe? And whether it's flirting or not is irrelevant since the attention is both unasked for and, at least in the first case, clearly unwanted. The instructor's behavior would be illegal in the workplace, why should it be any different in an Aikido dojo? How many incidents with how many different women will it take before you're willing to admit that maybe this guy has a problem?
It is clear to me that your hair is on fire. I don't know why you don't see it.

Fall goes, Winter comes,
Regardless of any want.
What are you to do?

 
Old 11-17-2008, 03:15 AM   #49
"Tom28"
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Flirting Joe? And whether it's flirting or not is irrelevant since the attention is both unasked for and, at least in the first case, clearly unwanted. The instructor's behavior would be illegal in the workplace, why should it be any different in an Aikido dojo? How many incidents with how many different women will it take before you're willing to admit that maybe this guy has a problem?

The spirit of this dojo is being adversely affected by the instructor's behavior.

Ron
Ron I think you got it.
If this was in the work place there would be a serious shit storm brewing.
You suggest a coworker or someone your in charge of wear a lower cut sweater or slap them on the ass and you would be looking for a new job.

Philip, I can take it getting it from sides not to worry
I realize there is blame to go around. Me for not addressing the situation when it first happened, my friend for ignoring it and the instructor for initiating it.
I feel responsible because I didn't address it the first time. I invited someone back to the class knowing what happened. I doubt anyone will accuse me of being the bad guy here but I still feel like I brought this ont he class (with help) which is why I feel so strongly abount correcting the situation.

My friend in this case has attended class for 2 months maybe once or twice a week, sometimes missing a week here and there, and has never socialized with him outside of the Dojo having tuned down offers to go for a drink. Yes philip she has approached me on the issue saying 'you were right he's starting to make inappropiate comments and it's getting worse'. Why is she continuing? I don't know. By her nature shes shy. She has a jerk of a coworker she deals with but refuses to confront him. I guess some people just hate confrontation and drama. If I had to guess why she continues in class she loves aikido and for the time being the pros outweight the cons. She's hoping it will go away.
 
Old 11-17-2008, 05:49 AM   #50
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Another harassment question

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
She's hoping it will go away.
Not likely.
 

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