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Old 11-04-2008, 09:48 AM   #101
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
When he attacks, then I attack first. The inner explosion pure and profound saturates the surface. At this moment I have defeated him.
Aikido has within it the means to enliven the spirit. Aikido teaches how to express, direct and deliver this power of the spirit. If you have been taught well and you have listened carfully it is sure to see, Aikido is all Atemi. Forget that Atemi has anything to do with the power in the fists. In Aikido, Atemi is useless unless it is Aiki-Atemi.
It is evident at this point we need to study more.( When he has a mind to attack, I have already defeated him, faster than Light. O'Sensei UESHIBA.)
All very nice and tidy but CAN YOU actually do it!! WHEN ATTACKED by MORE THAN ONE THUG when the attacks are coming in at all angles all at the same time I seriously doubt it!!

Tony
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:16 AM   #102
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
All very nice and tidy but CAN YOU actually do it!! WHEN ATTACKED by MORE THAN ONE THUG when the attacks are coming in at all angles all at the same time I seriously doubt it!!

Tony
Good question. I personally think I couldn't but would rather use the atemi in combination with Aikido footwork to facilitate an escape...then probably run away, find a stick or a sharp object and go kamikaze if they do decide to chase me...
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:09 AM   #103
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: View Post
Good question. I personally think I couldn't but would rather use the atemi in combination with Aikido footwork to facilitate an escape...then probably run away, find a stick or a sharp object and go kamikaze if they do decide to chase me...
Thank you sir..... my sentiments ...... hope you never have to experience it !! And be prepared TO DO IT if you ever happen to be unlucky enough to experience it!!

"He who hesitates is lost" and may be dead if you do!!

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 11-05-2008 at 03:11 AM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:04 AM   #104
judojo
 
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Disgust Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Dear Senseis, I did read some of the comments about " the Aikido is useless without Atemi" and it is really true because the Nage is dependent on the Atemies Uchi/s or Hold/s thus are independent attacks. I have points from Sensei Jino Kang -Hapkido " To defeat an enemy without fighting is the greatest and highiest skill" this is applicable on any occasssions. Thus it produces peaceful techniques that applies the Ai which is Love and Charity. I remember our Lord Jesus Christ when He was crusified without retaliations. But in my real life I did some attacks and counter attacks on heated situations because I am not a God. Thank You Brothers of Aikido, from; Reynaldo Ligoro Albaño

REYNALDO L. ALBAÑO
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:35 AM   #105
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Reynaldo L. Albano wrote: View Post
Dear Senseis, I did read some of the comments about " the Aikido is useless without Atemi" and it is really true because the Nage is dependent on the Atemies Uchi/s or Hold/s thus are independent attacks. I have points from Sensei Jino Kang -Hapkido " To defeat an enemy without fighting is the greatest and highiest skill" this is applicable on any occasssions. Thus it produces peaceful techniques that applies the Ai which is Love and Charity. I remember our Lord Jesus Christ when He was crusified without retaliations. But in my real life I did some attacks and counter attacks on heated situations because I am not a God. Thank You Brothers of Aikido, from; Reynaldo Ligoro Albaño
Hi Rey! I saw a t-shirt worn by Thiago Alves (in a UFC bout) that says "Jesus didn't TAP!"...made real good sense to me.

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:53 AM   #106
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

I think the fallacy of this whole thing is that you have to strike first to be effective in Aikido. As if striking is a must. I don't think so because when it comes to fighting, it is a case by case situation which have differen variables and scenarios. I think we get boxed into this idea there is only one fighting scenario or situation. Even in MMA there have been fights where the first punch was a dangerous mistake, miscalculation, etc. Many fighting styles in the martial arts don't subscribe to thinking that you should or have to throw the first punch enhance the waza. If you are attacking someone who is unaware or much weaker in skill or experience or both, or you catch someone off guard then yes a first strike can be effective. But Aikido like many other arts don't feel to make technique work you have to strike first. But in some cases it might be required, but not for all. -even for MMA this is true.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:08 PM   #107
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Only a few said that a 'first strike' was needed. Atemi as i meant it did include strikes, but was not limited to them. For instance a kiai is atemi and it 'is' essential to technique. See?

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:20 PM   #108
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

It is not actually striking first that matters. it is being in the position to do so that matters. Either you have the ability to do so (efffectively) or you don't. If you can't strike, then you are not in control and, thus, you cannot influence the situation in your favor.

Striking become your choice in these cases, it is simply an option you have.

Aikido waza, being what it is, is really designed to show you that you have other options available.

Sometimes in waza, we must remind uke that we do indeed have that choice. The way we typically practice waza, it may not always be apparent that we can do this.

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Old 11-05-2008, 07:25 PM   #109
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

I agree with Kevin, but where we might differ is here. I feel if your waza is good enough then in most cases striking is no longer required as an option. Of course I am not there yet, so I have to rely on striking as an option or a crutch to my technique. In a situation I would not open with a strike.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:28 PM   #110
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

May not be required...agreed...but it is always present and an option.

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Old 11-05-2008, 08:54 PM   #111
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Don't change the art, let the art change you. If not, why are you training?

Quote:
Ueshiba Morihei* wrote:
My technique is 70 percent atemi and 30 percent nage.


*Source: "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 issue of Budo magazine.

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Old 11-05-2008, 09:04 PM   #112
Buck
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
May not be required...agreed...but it is always present and an option.
Agreed.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:10 PM   #113
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

I read someone who said Kiai is atemi, that is a first strike. I agree. If you think about it atemi isn't limited to just kiai and with the bare limbs. Consider jo training that is allot of atemi there as well. FWIW
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:36 AM   #114
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Hi
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I feel if your waza is good enough then in most cases striking is no longer required as an option.
atemi in our Aikido is an integral part of waza itself.
It's not something optional which is added to waza and could be seperated.

In tanto dori, jo dori and tachi dori e.g. atemi is stated explicitly in the examination regulations.

Carsten
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #115
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I read someone who said Kiai is atemi, that is a first strike. I agree. If you think about it atemi isn't limited to just kiai and with the bare limbs. Consider jo training that is allot of atemi there as well. FWIW
I suppose it certain situations you could use it to startle or distract and that might lead to "opening up". and in that respect, yes.

However, you can kiai from a position of non dominance and not be able to influence the fight, so in that respect it would not be.

So, yes, I think if it caused a reaction from uke, most certainly.

The crux is that in order for it to work, you still have to have the ability to PHYSICALLY affect the situation, so I think that is the irony of the situation. therefore, IMO, Kiai is secondary and not primary wrt atemi.

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Old 11-06-2008, 06:30 PM   #116
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

I agree with Kevin on the positional advantage of being able to strike in order to begin a fight in control. (and choosing not to doesn't undermine your control at all). It creates this maai that your opponent has to overcome (ie he needs to figure out your tsuki or opening and has to move accordingly and I suppose if you're good you can make move where you want him to thereby perpetuating his inferior positioning). Anyway, my take on this is from my own understanding of Silat fighting which I feel applies well in my aikido training as well.

About being able to kiai from a position of non dominance though, I guess there's much to be read or watch about it. ( anyone remember the kiai master who rang giant bells with his shout-kiai but then got beaten up by an mma guy?). Still I do remember the book moving in stillness writing about a guy who kiai'd an 3rd party attacker and got him unbalanced enough that he stopped his assault on someone.

How that relates to aikido, I guess I'm not certain cause we don't do kiai. Other schools I understand do, and especially Iwama and from what I understand they generate kiai from different parts of their body with respect to what move they are doing. No idea why but I guess it would probably make sense.

FWIW is worth anyway.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:25 AM   #117
Andrew S
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Some thoughts...
My primary Aikido teacher in Australia used to describe the whole technique as a flowing sentence and the atemi as punctuation marks. You needed to make sure that you were using commas, not full stops mid-sentence.
He also pointed out use of atemi to gauge maai and position yourself correctly for kusushi and the technique to occur. (A useful example is a middle knuckle punch to the pressure point between the big and second toe in order to lower your hips for koshinage)

At the Kobayashi Dojos gasshuku a few years back, Igarashi Shihan talked about shifting larger and stronger opponents through good kuzushi and kokyu power. He also stated that even as a 7th dan, there were still people he couldn't move, so he'd soften them up with a little atemi first.

From my own training, I believe that some techniques can be varied to become atemi. The basic iriminage lends itself to being a punch, or variations can be palm strikes. Sokumenirimi can become an elbow strike. Tembinnage is a forearm strike to the elbow joint...

Atemi also teaches the ura form - being aware of where we are vunerable to atemi. A kohai once asked me, "Why does uke pull their leg back in kaitennage? And what happens if they don't?"
Leg sweep/shin rake. (Of course, that's atemi strike number 3 in a series of 5 when doing it from the basic katatedori version.

Atemi is not something we need to train for specifically, unless we are training for combat effectiveness, but is something that will help us better understand Aikido. IMHO.

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


合気道研心会 Aikido Kenshinkai
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:07 AM   #118
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
However, you can kiai from a position of non dominance and not be able to influence the fight, so in that respect it would not be.
Would that really be a true kiai then? I do not think so. It is my understanding that 'all' atemi must be mixed with timing or it is mostly wasted energy. Kiai should never be weak and half hearted or non-dominant as you put it; it should be an expression of your victory unfolding right? However, even the most intent powerful kiai will not throw someone or effect anyone in any note worthy way if they are prepared for it. Similarily if you throw a punch at a guy who is standing there balanced and waiting for you your probably going to get hurt. I think we can all attest to that lol. So, again, I don't think that a weak or timid 'shout' is a kiai; and I think all atemi is futile unless properly timed.

Quote:
Andrew Smallacombe wrote: View Post
I believe that some techniques can be varied to become atemi. The basic iriminage lends itself to being a punch, or variations can be palm strikes. Sokumenirimi can become an elbow strike. Tembinnage is a forearm strike to the elbow joint...
That is infact the origanal version of irimi-nage. If you look for it you can find many images of O'sensei performing it that way; and sokumen irimi-nage as described by O'sensei in Budo is a simultaneous tegatana strike to the face and solar plexus. Nice.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:37 PM   #119
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Thanks for the clarification Paul. I definitely see your point.

For me, the whole crux of the matter, if you distill it down to the basic element has nothing actually to do with the strike or the kiai, but having the ability to do both....which is positional dominance.

You say "timing", but I think we are saying the same thing at the base level.

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Old 11-08-2008, 11:58 AM   #120
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Hai, I believe we are on the same page. I must admit though, I'd hit 'em. lol

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:35 PM   #121
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Quote:
Andrew Smallacombe wrote: View Post
Tembinnage is a forearm strike to the elbow joint...
That's how we practice it in Kihon no Kata Ichiban, not with the forearm but with the biceps insertion into the elbow. And while doing so a same arm uppercut to the chin is good too .

Yours in evil.

Last edited by Flintstone : 11-08-2008 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:03 PM   #122
Nathan Wallace
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Thats not evil its just good tactics.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:15 PM   #123
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Give your attacker the first punch to the head!? I don't know if that will be effective. I am a Roku Dan in Wado Karate Do and based on my experience during my tournament days hitting your opponent to the face will only make him more aggressive. I had a chance to use karate once in a life and death situation here in Japan, The attacker was a San Dan in Ju Do, I tried to avoid him but he grabbed me with a Judo under arm lock and smashed a beer mug into my head. I know that if a Judo Ka grabbed you in the neck it will be over in about a few moments, so I tried to lift his arm by my shoulder and made a little opening on his left ribcage and gave him a couple of snap punch on that spot. He fell down and I instantly grabbed his neck with a head lock and pushed my center knuckle finger to his neck. Then he said that He will Die if I continue with it (He is a Judo Ka so He knows what I am doing) I lossened my grip and told him that the next time he threatens my home and my family I will kill him. Why did I loosened my hold? Hurting or Killing a person is not part of the "DO". Like in Ai KI Do, Karate Do has its path, My sensei always tells us that always parry your opponent's strikes with Tai Sabaki moves to unbalance him, and if you block his attack, snap your block with speed not power so it will cause pain to his weapon (Hands or feet) and will try to think if he should continue to attack you or not. Make him think if he should attack you or not. Making him angry and aggressive will only make the situation worst.

Note:
Wado Karate is a circular type of karate not like the other karate schools which are linear. Wado was developed via combination of Okinawa Karate and Shindo Yoshin Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu.
Long time ago, Master Otsuka, founder of Wado Karate,took my Sensei to his drinking session with a friend. Master Otsuka's friend was a small white bearded Japanese man, warm faced but energy seems to be flowing from this man. After the session, when they separated ways, My Sensei asked Master Otsuka who that man was. Master Otsuka replied, Oh that man? He is called O Sensei.
He is Morihei Ueshiba, my friend, My Good Friend.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:55 AM   #124
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Maybe it should be "Atemi is useless without a follow-up technique"...just a thought...
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:49 PM   #125
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido is useless without atemi...

Not always. There are one punch knock outs.

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