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Old 10-22-2008, 03:06 PM   #26
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Shane, come back

Mike,
Are you sure people are "going quieter" because they don't want to share? Or might it be because they are still digesting what they are experiencing for themselves, before they start talking about it in any detail on the Web?

This is profound stuff, and requires thoughtful analysis before dissecting it in front of an audience. No one wants to look like an overnight master, or, -worse- not have the right words to describe what they are experiencing so they come across as incompetent to discuss these things. And, some who have trained for a while may be reticent about describing things because they have not yet determined how they will work it into their aikido (or other arts).

I suggest that you give it time. In the meanwhile, I do believe that those outside aikido who have the internal skills that are aikido's inheritance, still have plenty of value to contribute, and can serve as helpful sounding boards as a new generation of internal-skills practitioners work their way along.

If you didn't believe so yourself, Mike, then why are you still participating here? Did someone steal your horse?
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:27 PM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Mike,
Are you sure people are "going quieter" because they don't want to share?
Hi Katie:

I didn't say I was "sure" of anything like that, I'm afraid.
Quote:
Or might it be because they are still digesting what they are experiencing for themselves, before they start talking about it in any detail on the Web?
Could be. Various people are at various levels, though. Not everyone is at the "digesting" stage anymore... some people are at the "progressing" stage for sure and part of my point was that it helps to progress when you formulate and articulate your thinking and practice.
Quote:
This is profound stuff, and requires thoughtful analysis before dissecting it in front of an audience. No one wants to look like an overnight master, or, -worse- not have the right words to describe what they are experiencing so they come across as incompetent to discuss these things. And, some who have trained for a while may be reticent about describing things because they have not yet determined how they will work it into their aikido (or other arts).
True. But there may also be people who have some general principles down fairly well and are in a position to discuss more than the cases you've mentioned. Be positive, Cady!
Quote:
I suggest that you give it time. In the meanwhile, I do believe that those outside aikido who have the internal skills that are aikido's inheritance, still have plenty of value to contribute, and can serve as helpful sounding boards as a new generation of internal-skills practitioners work their way along.
I never said anything about people not contributing anymore, Cady. I simply suggested that there are some people in the Aikido ranks right now that have the understanding to post right now. In fact, I think there are some people in Aikido right now who have as much/more understanding as some of the 'outsiders' did a few years ago and who could contribute quite a bit. But then again, I'm not insisting anything; I'm simply offering an alternative suggestion to waiting for Shane or his horse to ride back into town.
Quote:
If you didn't believe so yourself, Mike, then why are you still participating here? Did someone steal your horse?
Why does the conversation devolve to me rather than stick strictly to the issue????

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:46 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shane, come back

I personally have nothing to say that hasn't been said already. I reached a level of understanding of what I need to do in order to further explore this area of study. Working on incorporating it, trying to find the right balance of my training time on various training methodologies that I have to work.

There has been no real new material to post and frankly getting tired of the same old round robin discussion between the various extremes.

Those that say continue to want to argue it.
Those that want to continue to "think it to death",
and those that have drank way too much of the Kool Aid.

Yeah, enough blame to go all the way around if you ask me.

The one thing I think is important is defining the goals or end state of your training and how you are managing to get there.

I frankly have found the people I am looking for that want to study the various aspects of martial training. We talk and I read their stuff (like Tim Fong's stuff) and find the time spent with those folks much more productive than continuing to discuss the low level of conversation that continues to go on here.

At some point you simply have to get over it and "shut up and train".

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Old 10-22-2008, 05:44 PM   #29
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why does the conversation devolve to me rather than stick strictly to the issue????
Because it provided an opening to drag out yet one more "Shane" reference. Nothing more. Hence, the smilie.

[chop-busting mode]
To avoid be addressed directly or communicated with as an individual with a unique personal identity, maybe next time just sign your posts "Anonymous" and refrain from using personal pronouns. That should help.[/chop-busting mode]

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Old 10-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The one thing I think is important is defining the goals or end state of your training and how you are managing to get there.
I absolutely agree. But if there is no conversation on these 2 things then there is no feel for what the true baseline is. There must be communication or we're back to the problem of everybody's impression of "Oh yeah, I'm already doing that". What I called several years ago the "Oh Yeah" stuff.
Quote:
At some point you simply have to get over it and "shut up and train".
That's true, but even the guys who are doing it wrong think that they're just "shutting up and training". The smart guys are always cross-checking anywhere they can for fresh ideas and pointers. Show me someone who is not pushing and shoving and thinking and I'll show you a guy who is not really getting it. Everytime. My bet.

There is a great discussion sometime about Chinese martial-arts that claim to "mix internal and external". The meaning of that discussion if pretty profound and maybe rates its own thread someday. But the basic thing I'd point to is that most people who think they're doing the equivalent of "internal" martial arts are *at best* doing what is simply mid-level "external" martial-arts in reality. My point is that it helps to have these discussions. Are we even close to those discussions yet? No. But if there are no discussions, even useless ones, nobody goes anywhere. Even wasted discussions and occasional bickering have their uses. If we do as was suggested on Aikido Journal and cut off all discussions that don't conform to a certain level of "aiki", no one ever finds there way. The way is always tricky.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #31
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
[chop-busting mode]
To avoid be addressed directly or communicated with as an individual with a unique personal identity, maybe next time just sign your posts "Anonymous" and refrain from using personal pronouns. That should help.[/chop-busting mode]
Boosheet. "In my opinion" and "I think" about issues are not the same thing as addressing ad hominem rather than the issue. Rebutt the issue without dragging in the person.

Mike
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:56 PM   #32
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Shane, come back

How about the horse he rode in on?

:^P
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:09 AM   #33
ChrisMoses
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, this was one of my thoughts..... it's odd that as people have begun to get hold of some of the ki/kokyu skills they've gone quieter (I'm speaking generally; not about you in particular). Sure, some of it has to do with realizing that there's more there than one thinks initially. Another factor that hits people (been there) is that "whoa.... this stuff is easy to extrapolate; it's potentially very potent and I ain't giving this away to my competition!".
Or some of us have just gotten completely sick of the constant mis-understanding and bickering that the topic seems to draw out and would rather spend our time practicing it in person with other interested folks.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:30 AM   #34
phitruong
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Or some of us have just gotten completely sick of the constant mis-understanding and bickering that the topic seems to draw out and would rather spend our time practicing it in person with other interested folks.
if there are no discussions then how would other folks be interested or not.

wondering if i should start a thread on internal baseline skills .....hmmm thinking .....thinking... *do i still have any asbestos zebra striped speedo left????* ..... thinking.....
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:45 AM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
wondering if i should start a thread on internal baseline skills .....hmmm thinking .....thinking... *do i still have any asbestos zebra striped speedo left????* ..... thinking.....
I think you should, Phi. You have enough personal understanding of the skills that you're more than aware there can be "baseline" discussions that serve a purpose yet which don't dip that deeply into the "secrets" range. Besides, it's hard enough to learn these things and the topic is so broad that there's no way to do it justice on a discussion board. What does happen though is that a reference point is given to the Aikido community as a whole from which to mentally gauge what's what. Personally, I think such a reference point is unavoidably important.

People who don't want to contribute.... fine. No problem. That's their choice. Of course, I'd expect they would be the first to understand why people wouldn't share information with them, in return, if the opportunity arose. Other than that, it just seems to me that it's pretty obvious that some baseline discussion for and by Aikido people is such a plus for the art and the community.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:53 PM   #36
C. David Henderson
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Or some of us have just gotten completely sick of the constant mis-understanding and bickering that the topic seems to draw out and would rather spend our time practicing it in person with other interested folks.
Not to pick on Chris, but isn't this one of the underlying questions -- can the topic be discussed without the bickering?

DH
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:03 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Not to pick on Chris, but isn't this one of the underlying questions -- can the topic be discussed without the bickering?
There may always be *some* bickering on a public forum. Think about the scenario for a sec.... Aikido is supposed to be a martial-art and if you get a bunch of people who are ballsy enough to do martial-arts you'd expect at least *some* occasional bickering, right? The trick is to confine it meaningfully.

On the QiJin forum it's a private discussion and therefore being able to keep only the serious people on the forum keeps the bickering out almost completely. If anything I encourage at least some disagreements, etc., so that we don't turn into a mutual back-slapping, pump-air-into-each-others'-tires society. Notice how on most Aikido forum where "no bickering" is the rule and "AikiSpeak" is king.... you tend to have more of the mutual backslapping while the bickering raises its ugly head in another guise called "passive-aggressive speak". Very stagnant and look how it's dead-ended most Aikido forums (and forums for other martial-arts, too).

So yeah... it's tricky. No doubt about it. The more the personal discussions (no matter how artfully slipped in) are constrained, the less bickering there is, though. Period.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:03 PM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shane, come back

Hi Mike,

Apparently not...

Best,
Ron (shame, but hey...it is what it is)

Oops, that was David who said that...

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-23-2008 at 01:06 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:05 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,

Apparently not...

Best,
Ron (shame, but hey...it is what it is)
That's "shane", Ron. Didn't you read the thread?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:06 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shane, come back

good one! I needed a laugh...
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:25 PM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I absolutely agree. But if there is no conversation on these 2 things then there is no feel for what the true baseline is. There must be communication or we're back to the problem of everybody's impression of "Oh yeah, I'm already doing that". What I called several years ago the "Oh Yeah" stuff. That's true, but even the guys who are doing it wrong think that they're just "shutting up and training". The smart guys are always cross-checking anywhere they can for fresh ideas and pointers. Show me someone who is not pushing and shoving and thinking and I'll show you a guy who is not really getting it. Everytime. My bet.

There is a great discussion sometime about Chinese martial-arts that claim to "mix internal and external". The meaning of that discussion if pretty profound and maybe rates its own thread someday. But the basic thing I'd point to is that most people who think they're doing the equivalent of "internal" martial arts are *at best* doing what is simply mid-level "external" martial-arts in reality. My point is that it helps to have these discussions. Are we even close to those discussions yet? No. But if there are no discussions, even useless ones, nobody goes anywhere. Even wasted discussions and occasional bickering have their uses. If we do as was suggested on Aikido Journal and cut off all discussions that don't conform to a certain level of "aiki", no one ever finds there way. The way is always tricky.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Good points Mike.

I concur that the discussions are good to have. I hope that they do not get cut off.

I simply am stating why I am not responding much these days. I still keep up and read what is being discussed. There is much to be learned from the conversations.

I simply have nothing of any value to add to them at this point.

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Old 10-24-2008, 04:48 AM   #42
phitruong
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think you should, Phi. You have enough personal understanding of the skills that you're more than aware there can be "baseline" discussions that serve a purpose yet which don't dip that deeply into the "secrets" range. Besides, it's hard enough to learn these things and the topic is so broad that there's no way to do it justice on a discussion board. What does happen though is that a reference point is given to the Aikido community as a whole from which to mentally gauge what's what. Personally, I think such a reference point is unavoidably important.

People who don't want to contribute.... fine. No problem. That's their choice. Of course, I'd expect they would be the first to understand why people wouldn't share information with them, in return, if the opportunity arose. Other than that, it just seems to me that it's pretty obvious that some baseline discussion for and by Aikido people is such a plus for the art and the community.

Best.

Mike Sigman
There are "secrets range"? you're kidding me! would you show me those if you promised not to kill me afterward? on second thought, not to kill me before, during and after.

If I am going to start on the baseline IS skills, then I would like to set some ground rules first; otherwise, it will be a melee. it would be something along the line:
1. no personal attack, snide remark, sarcasm - keep to the topic (some jokes are ok)
2. use plain english that us farmer folks could understand - keep to the topic
3. keep your rank and years of experience out of the discussion - keep to the topic
4. keep your "oh ya I/We already done that" out of the discussion - keep to the topic
5. KISS principle apply - keep to the topic

did i mention that we should "keep to the topic"?
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Old 10-24-2008, 08:41 AM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
There are "secrets range"? you're kidding me! would you show me those if you promised not to kill me afterward? on second thought, not to kill me before, during and after.
Like I told you before. I'll be happy to show you the secrets but I'll have to give you a forgetfulness drug when we're done. Remember?
Quote:
If I am going to start on the baseline IS skills, then I would like to set some ground rules first; otherwise, it will be a melee. it would be something along the line:
1. no personal attack, snide remark, sarcasm - keep to the topic (some jokes are ok)
2. use plain english that us farmer folks could understand - keep to the topic
3. keep your rank and years of experience out of the discussion - keep to the topic
4. keep your "oh ya I/We already done that" out of the discussion - keep to the topic
5. KISS principle apply - keep to the topic

did i mention that we should "keep to the topic"?
Go for it.

Mike
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:04 AM   #44
ChrisMoses
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if there are no discussions then how would other folks be interested or not.

wondering if i should start a thread on internal baseline skills .....hmmm thinking .....thinking... *do i still have any asbestos zebra striped speedo left????* ..... thinking.....
You mean like THE baseline skillset thread that's already 51 pages long?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:10 AM   #45
Aikibu
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Good points Mike.

I concur that the discussions are good to have. I hope that they do not get cut off.

I simply am stating why I am not responding much these days. I still keep up and read what is being discussed. There is much to be learned from the conversations.

I simply have nothing of any value to add to them at this point.
Concur....I am too busy training anyway. I also agree that you can think things to death but what do you expect with a discussion board? I am tired of some of the IA experts obtuse personalities as well. There is no excuse to hold someone in contempt if they do not have your knowledge or articulation of the subject. We're all just guests here.

Argumentum Ad Authoritum NADA BRO! LOL

William Hazen

PS. I was blessed to surf with dolphins this morning.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:02 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

On second thought, Phi, I think you should start a thread on another forum. It's probably a lot more productive.

Best.

Mike
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:26 AM   #47
Aikibu
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
On second thought, Phi, I think you should start a thread on another forum. It's probably a lot more productive.

Best.

Mike
Great Idea!

William Hazen
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:43 AM   #48
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Shane, come back

Phi,
Tim Walters-Kleinert has a great forum set up here:
http://www.internal-aiki.com/

In fact, the forum has ground rules very similar to the ones you posted.

Best,
Tim Fong
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:24 PM   #49
jss
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Phi,
Tim Walters-Kleinert has a great forum set up here:
http://www.internal-aiki.com/

In fact, the forum has ground rules very similar to the ones you posted.

Best,
Tim Fong
The thing is/was basically dead. So I started a thread about book recommendations to get things started again. I might open one on zhan zhuang as well...
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:28 PM   #50
Timothy WK
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
The thing is/was basically dead. So I started a thread about book recommendations to get things started again. I might open one on zhan zhuang as well...
Just to let people know what's up---I didn't abandon Internal-Aiki, I've just been occupied with moving cross country these last couple months. Things are, um... starting to get settled, so as I get the time I'll probably start doing some more posting.

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