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Old 10-20-2008, 08:24 PM   #1
C. David Henderson
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Shane, come back

A quick view of this forum shows three recent threads between them generated 474 posts, and more than 10,000 views. Then, after some contraversy, which appeared resolved, the posts pretty much dried up.

I hope this lull is just that. The level of interest in these topics speaks for itself.

So, should I keep looking for something on this forum, or has everyone retired to their respective tents before the walls of Troy?

DH
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:18 PM   #2
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Re: Shane, come back

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Old 10-21-2008, 06:38 AM   #3
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Re: Shane, come back

Dan was given a "time-out". I don't know about the others, but I don't really think that was called for and so I haven't felt like discussing much here.

If on one hand, someone states that they want discussions added to posted videos and then on the other hand gives someone a "time-out" for doing just that, albeit with a picture -- then I'm not sure where the line is drawn. Who's next for a "time-out"?

And when someone gets in a hissy fit just because someone else talked about their publicly posted picture, well, I guess we all like to *think* we're adults and can take criticism. Guess reality shows us the truth.

And when someone posts about suing based upon unfounded, illogical, and untrue facts --- and then gets away with it, well, it certainly doesn't promote a healthy atmosphere.

Finally, the only person to apologize was the one given the "time-out".

Shane come back? He'd be a saint if he did. He'd be more like Ueshiba than anyone here, that's for sure. But, I guess "harmony" was restored to AikiWeb. If that's the kind of "harmony" that is wanted ... I sure don't feel like participating.

Mark
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:24 AM   #4
phitruong
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Re: Shane, come back

Mark, let it go, please? interestingly enough, seeing a lot of passive-aggressive stuffs. aikidoka are human after all. the thing about harmony is folks who seek it the most tend to need it the most.

isn't there a saying that bad things happen when good folks do nothing?

one thing about Dan is that telling folks how badly they are doing their stuffs will get into people nerves after awhile. maybe he should discuss about what need to be done to make stuffs good instead. then again, i am not Dan or you. who am i to tell folks what they should or shouldn't?

please continue with the internal stuffs.... and stay away from picture, unless the picture of me in speedo doing aikido, then you have my permission.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:57 AM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shane, come back

Maybe we can just go back to talking about the training as best we can, and leave some of the dross behind.

People (on both sides) make mistakes. Get up, dust yourself off, and start again. Don't take it so personal.

Best,
Ron (Nanakorobi yaoki, jinsei wa kore kara da... )

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:20 AM   #6
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Shane, come back

Mark,

Why don't you start a closed forum for Dan and his students, acolytes, and proteges?

Jim
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:43 AM   #7
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Re: Shane, come back

Mark,

I'm glad I asked then, and I apologize to you if the title sounded glib. I hope you decide to participate here again, but whatever you decide, peace.

DH
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:54 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shane, come back

Jim, do you actually think that suggestion is helpful?

I'll repeat myself...Mistakes were made on both sides. That means both sides will have to make an effort to keep things cool if we expect Jun to tolerate our discussions on his board.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-21-2008, 10:12 AM   #9
David Orange
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Mark,

Why don't you start a closed forum for Dan and his students, acolytes, and proteges?

Jim
I have to say, Tim Fong has done a fantastic job with this wiki:

http://unleashingfong.com/martialmov...itle=Main_Page

I had been thinking about somehow compiling a lot of the best threads and posts from the internal discussions recently--clipping out the irrelevant posts (including many of my own) to show the real meat of the subject.

However, Tim has collected massive information on this site, including the old neijia mailing list, important threads from various forums, information on groups, video clips, etc. It's a lot better than what I had in mind.

The only thing, it's not a forum. It's just a compilation of resources. On the one hand, that takes away the fun of "discussion." On the other, it just puts the information out there without the noise distorting the signal.

We owe Tim a big thanks and kudos for this one!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:08 AM   #10
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Shane, come back

Hi Ron,
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Jim, do you actually think that suggestion is helpful?
Yes, I do. Try as I might, I have not been able to find even one post in which Dan praises the aikido of anyone other than Ueshiba Morihei --- and even then, Dan often seems to temper his praise of Ueshiba M. with unflattering comparisons to Sagawa, Kodo, Horikawa and Takeda Sokaku. I asked Dan repeatedly for a photo or video example of body movement in Japanese martial arts that meets with his approval, but he did not provide even one. However, he has an ample supply of criticism.

It's not sufficient to say that "both sides" made mistakes in their posts. As Jun states at the top of the page, "AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information." Look at the vast number of comments that Dan has made on AikiWeb, e-budo, etc. Given his long experience, either Dan should know better how to engage in a dialogue, or he really is not interested in having a conversation with those of us who have legitimate questions about the issues he raises, but who may lack his depth of knowledge. Perhaps if Dan has a closed forum of his own, he (and his followers) can work out their issues with aikido as many people practice it today, and then return to this forum and have better discussions with the rest of us.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:15 AM   #11
C. David Henderson
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Re: Shane, come back

Respectfully, I don't think that would be a likely result of a lack of dialogue.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:22 AM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shane, come back

Hi David, I'm with you on that one.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:11 PM   #13
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Respectfully, I don't think that would be a likely result of a lack of dialogue.
Not to butt in, but there are already enough Aikido people, just from the last year or two of training on these specific skills, who know enough to discuss the matters intelligently. Sure there is still a certain amount of obfuscation and "we already do that, too" and stuff floating around, but that will always be there. Maybe some of the Aikido people should start their own dialogue within their own art and not really maintain the dependence on 'outside' contributors? Part of the problem, IMO, is the perceived and actual mindset within the Aikido community about "avoiding conflict", etc.

Frankly, I don't think that mindset helped in these matters so maybe some of the Aikido people should just grab the bull by the horns? No offense.... it's just a thought. And sure, a lot of Aikido 'practitioners' are never going to really want to explore Aikido as a martial art, so I'd suggest not worrying so much about pleasing the everyone, not making waves, and so on. If Ueshiba had been as constrained by peer pressure, he'd have never left home. How about some Aikido guys instead of Shane?

2 Centavos.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:57 PM   #14
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Shane, come back

I see the presense of "Non-Aikido" people here as a valuable perspective, particularly of aspects of aikido's past and its aiki heritage that so few aikidoka are aware of.

With such a dearth of people on the 'net who have a thorough grasp of internal methodology, Mike and Dan are among the few voices available to provide a balanced perspective. Fortunately, they are both here on AikiWeb, so even when one is on a time out, the other one can remain to keep the discussions cogent and productive.

Sometimes they seem like kind of a Time-Out Tag Team. And when they both get timed-out at the same time, things get pretty quiet on the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum. That's when AikiWeb readers are most productive on their day jobs.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-21-2008 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:29 PM   #15
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Re: Shane, come back

David,
Thanks very much for the compliment. Actually, I just host the site and have posted a few link compilations. Rob John, Dave Findlay, Hunter Lonsberry and a number of others wrote most of the material.

Best,
Tim
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:07 AM   #16
David Orange
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
David,
Thanks very much for the compliment. Actually, I just host the site and have posted a few link compilations. Rob John, Dave Findlay, Hunter Lonsberry and a number of others wrote most of the material.

Best,
Tim
Tim,

It's a great site. I've been trying to find the old nejia list and since I found it on your site, I've been spending a lot of time there. It's a great site, pure information quiet as a library! Great job, all you guys!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:06 AM   #17
C. David Henderson
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Re: Shane, come back

Hi Mike,

My comment, which you quote, was directed at Jim's comment -- i.e., that if people group together, go their separate ways, and have their own discussions was likely to lead to some rejoining of the discussion here at a future time in a more agreeable fashion.

I'm not saying that outcome is a good thing, a bad thing, or a mediocre thing. Nor was I suggesting we should all play nice in order to fill space.

Dialogue can handle a certain degree of tension. That's okay.

As for whether it would be better to continue the discussion without relying on "outside" sources, I guess that's a different issue. To me, there is still the question of defining the parameters of what is "inside" and "outside." Nor was the OP directed at one person's [virtual] presence, absence, or exile.

We'll see; this may be a sorting out of boundaries.

I guess I would, however, find it ironic if practitioners of arts that emphasize everything from flowing and connecting to absorbing and redirecting would, in the end, be unable to communicate rationally in writing. Oh, Irony -- you're just God's tablecloth trick.

DH
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:11 AM   #18
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
It's not sufficient to say that "both sides" made mistakes in their posts. [Some] should know better how to engage in a dialogue, ...
Dialogue is like walking - a continuous pivot from the affirmative leg to the negative leg, always advancing the position of the discussion, so that the cycle of affirmation and criticism never are repeated from the same point.

This has been missing. Trying to move forward hopping on the single negative leg of irony, apart from being mildly comical and inefficient, becomes tiresome when it is continually demanded that one adopt an identical posture in order to attempt to participate.

I find the following instructive in many areas of important dialogue:
Quote:
Jose Ortega y Gasset, The Revolt of the Masses wrote:
Any attempt, then to say what is happening in the world to-day must be taken as being conscious of its own irony. [F]or the very reason that we are unable to have directly complete knowledge of reality, there is nothing for us but arbitrarily to construct a reality, to suppose that things are happening after a certain fashion. This provides us with an outline, a concept or framework of concepts.

Every concept, the simplest and the most technical is framed in its own irony [the] concept tells us quite seriously: "This thing is "A", that thing is "B." But the seriousness is that of a man who is playing a joke on you It knows very well that this thing is not just merely A, or that that thing is no just merely B. What the concept really thinks is a little bit different from what it says, and herein the irony lies. What it really thinks is this: I know that, strictly speaking, this thing is not A, nor that thing B; but by taking them as A and B, I come to an understanding with myself for the purposes of my practical attitude towards both of these things.

This theory of rational knowledge would have displeased the Greeks. For the Greek believed that he had discovered in the reason, in the concept, reality itself. We, on the contrary, believe the concept is one of man's household utensils, which he needs and uses in order to make clear his own position in the midst of the infinite and very problematic reality which is his life. Life is a struggle with things to maintain itself to maintain itself among them. Concepts are the strategic plan we form in answer to the attack.
That said -- while subjective (and necessarily selective) observations are fair game for recharacterization, objective truth is not a negotiable. Idealists think they are realists and realists think they are idealists -- and really, we cannot afford to be either one with perfect consistency.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:27 AM   #19
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I guess I would, however, find it ironic if practitioners of arts that emphasize everything from flowing and connecting to absorbing and redirecting would, in the end, be unable to communicate rationally in writing. Oh, Irony -- you're just God's tablecloth trick.
I'm reminded of an instance I saw where Yamada Sensei was doing a workshop section on bokken techniques. The Uke was some white guy fantasy-role-player who instead of just handing back the bokken to Yamada would make a lot of on-the-floor bows going "su-su-su-su" under his breath. Yamada finally got exaperated and said, "Just give it to me... it's only a stick!". Loved it.

But what I'm getting at is that many Aikido forums pick up their own gloss of special ways to talk and interract which are fine as long as you're just playing at Aikido appearances, but when it comes to trying to delineate and usefully structure a discourse like these "internal" skills, protocol things get in the way. What I'm suggesting is that there is a weakness in Aikido forums when it comes to really discussing substantive issues and having "outsiders" seems to be one way address the problem. <<shrugs>> I just don't think outsiders are that necessary anymore and was promoting the idea that a discussion between Aikido people about these skills would be good. Just pick up the stick!

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:54 AM   #20
C. David Henderson
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Re: Shane, come back

Mike,

I don't disagree with your suggestion, which I understand is generally directed. I think it's even possible the tenor of discussions between "outsiders/insiders" (however permeable that membrame proves to be) also may become percieved more favorably by "picking up the stick." (How can you point at the moon with no stick?)

DH

DH
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:47 PM   #21
Marc Abrams
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Re: Shane, come back

I think that there are very distinct issues that have unfortunately overlapped here.

1) Outside influences: I can find very few reasonable people who do not find a benefit from exploring, comparing, experimenting with, ..... other ar3eas and aspects in the martial arts world. With Aikido, the "internal arts" exploration has been very fruitful for many people (myself included). Stanley Pranin's efforts to provide us the Aiki Expos was an effort that many regard as being critical to the healthy development of Aikido in the United States.

2) The Manner in which some people has chosen to discuss various issues: Anybody who attended the Aiki Expos found that people from a variety of backgrounds and arts found a way to have a CIVIL dialogue that bridged gaps that existed solely for political reasons. The end result was of benefit for everybody in attendance.

Some people have found a way to discuss "controversial" issues in a manner that simply creates ill-will. This is Jun's "house!" He has made it perfectly clear to all of us that he expects people to be civil in his "house." I have crossed that line myself and had to be appropriately "scolded" to behave. Jun is entirely correct in enforcing the rules that he wants to exist in this forum.

People need to rethink how they are trying to discuss information. We can agree to disagree and still be civil. Those people who cannot find a way to alter how they choose to discuss information are simply hurting themselves and others who might benefit from the experience, ideas, suggestions, training, .... that they can offer, that have become buried under the weight of holier-than-thou criticisms and sermons from the mount.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:23 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
People need to rethink how they are trying to discuss information. We can agree to disagree and still be civil.
I absolutely agree such a thing is possible, Marc, and my recommendation over and over again is to stick strictly to the issue. One of the problems I see often in Aikido is that "civil" often means "taking passive-aggressive shots under the guise of being aiki". In other words, I agree with your terms, but I think we have to be careful. "Civil" is often a code-word for "conform with the norm" and if you look at all the years that have been wasted when "civil" attempts were made to discuss these same "internal" concepts in the past, certainly a flag has to raise about why things never changed?

On the other hand, I personally dislike seeing so much personality injected into these discussions, so someone "outside" of Aikido isn't by default the smoothest way to go either. Incidentally, to answer the question of why I introduced "insider versus outsider" to the conversation, I'm simply acknowledging the theme implied in the header where "Shane" in the movie was an outsider and winds up leaving town at the end of the movie. "Shane, come back" was about the last line of the movie as Shane rode off from town and I assumed that was the reference.

Again, my major point has little to do with anything other than suggest that people who "have been training in these skills" in the last few years from Ushiro, Dan, Akuzawa, whatever, should be able to mount some pretty good discussions now. I don't think there's any necessity for vague and rambling maunderings from outside "experts" so much anymore. I.e., I'm encouraging Shane to keep on riding and let the townsfolk do more for themselves. Oddly enough, I remember a few years back there were some pointed discussions about too many conversations being herded by "outsiders" and now I think it really is time for the "people who actually do Aikido" to take it and run with it. I'd be happy to watch such conversations take place.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:22 PM   #23
Marc Abrams
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Re: Shane, come back

Mike:

I thoroughly dislike the passive-aggressiveness of some as much as I dislike the "cult of personalities." I do not think that Aikidoka hold the patent on passive-aggressiveness. Heck, you should spend time with some of my colleagues (psychologists, etc.) to get a sense of how deep in that stuff people can be.

I frankly find myself becoming more reluctant to discuss these "hot" topics in open forums. I find that the more that I am discovering, the more I realize how little I have begun to grasp and how my understandings have been transforming over these ensuing years. I have no problem having personal discussions with people and enjoy the give and take of trying things out with others on the path towards similar discoveries.

I would personally become involved in an effort to get an event planned (akin to the Aiki Expo) where many of the people whose names are being discussed and some who few who are well known within their communities to get together for several days of workshops and training.

Unfortunately, this forum and others have devolved where people, in absence of really knowing what somebody else brings to the table, belittle others while hoist their own idols up to dizzying heights. Talk has become both cheap and inflammatory, closing the minds of others, rather than opening them. Until people find a way to discuss controversial ideas without the baggage that closes minds, then we will keep on coming back to this logjam.

I have to finish preparing for Ushiro Sensei's arrival tomorrow. After a 1/2 week of some good hard work, I will hopefully have progressed some more and become more befuddled than I am now!

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:44 PM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
I frankly find myself becoming more reluctant to discuss these "hot" topics in open forums. I find that the more that I am discovering, the more I realize how little I have begun to grasp and how my understandings have been transforming over these ensuing years. I have no problem having personal discussions with people and enjoy the give and take of trying things out with others on the path towards similar discoveries.
Well, this was one of my thoughts..... it's odd that as people have begun to get hold of some of the ki/kokyu skills they've gone quieter (I'm speaking generally; not about you in particular). Sure, some of it has to do with realizing that there's more there than one thinks initially. Another factor that hits people (been there) is that "whoa.... this stuff is easy to extrapolate; it's potentially very potent and I ain't giving this away to my competition!". Exactly what happens and essentially it becomes a variation of the normal power-play when that happens. It becomes fairly obvious from the potential power that whoever (I mean that in the plural) gains the upper hand in these skills winds up being King For A Day (mild joke, folks). So that affects how much and how willing people are to discuss things.

Knowing all that, I keep encouraging people to get it out there and discuss basics openly so the King syndrome doesn't get too much of a foothold. I think it's more important that these skills filter into typical Aikido dojos as *baseline* skills, not the default purview of a few. If someone is really good, no sweat... their skills should be enough to keep them above the masses. So I'm encouraging the Aikido people to speak out more about the baseline level. If nothing else let me offer the idea that I seriously doubt that anything will be discussed for the next few years on this forum that's not already archived somewhere on the web already, for anyone who wants to look.

My supporting point would be that in my experience one of the strong contributing factors to improvement is the thinking processes started by open discussions. What more can I say?
Quote:
I would personally become involved in an effort to get an event planned (akin to the Aiki Expo) where many of the people whose names are being discussed and some who few who are well known within their communities to get together for several days of workshops and training.
I wouldn't do it. IMO the "show and tell" stuff is just too short and too shallow to take the time. Each to his own, though.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:38 PM   #25
C. David Henderson
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Re: Shane, come back

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm simply acknowledging the theme implied in the header where "Shane" in the movie was an outsider and winds up leaving town at the end of the movie. "Shane, come back" was about the last line of the movie as Shane rode off from town and I assumed that was the reference.
You are right that is the reference. A number of people went silent quickly, though. Anyway, any theme worth its salt means more than one thing.

David
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