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Old 10-17-2008, 02:58 AM   #101
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Seeing the same technique done in different ways by people you respect, how do you resolve the differences? How do you explain it to yourself, not from historical point of view, but from "which way should I do it" point of view. I guess my question boils down to "how do you choose what to teach your students"?
Is this not the case with most waza? Nevertheless, since I have been training for nearly 40 years, I supposed I have evolved a preferred way of training that fits me. As for teaching, I have had so many teachers that I tend to show different ways of doing the same waza--and then let people, especially yudansha, work it out for themselves.

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Old 10-17-2008, 06:04 AM   #102
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Is this not the case with most waza?
My question was about most waza.

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I supposed I have evolved a preferred way of training that fits me.
It is this evolution that I am asking about, how do you rationalize it?
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:22 AM   #103
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
My question was about most waza.

It is this evolution that I am asking about, how do you rationalize it?
I am not sure what you are looking for, over and above the comments I have already made.

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Old 10-17-2008, 09:18 AM   #104
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I have been trying to figure out how to contribute to this thread in a useful way...

Let's try this. I often find (when looking at different ways of doing a waza) that if I understand the bigger picture of the goals of a particular training group, then I can see several clues as to why they do a particular waza a particular way.

Some groups are influenced by another art, such as judo, and that will often flavor their perspectives on a waza such as koshinage.

Some groups focus strongly toward a particular aspect of training...that might be a very strong kuzushi at the very instant of contact, or starting with a very light and leading kuzushi, then strengthening that through out the waza, or anything in between. That might lead to differing ways of doing a specific waza.

Some groups will be very influenced by a strong shihan or teacher, and that person might have a distinct body type. So the group will focus (sometimes without even realizing it) on types of waza that work really well for that instructor.

All of these things can shape how the place where you train generally does koshinage. Personally, I may have my favorites, or my preferred ways, but I find value in trying out all of the different approaches.

I've done it by positioning my hips, looking up at the leading hand, then down as I cut down and lead uke over my hips...

I've done it by getting tight tsukuri, then popping uke up in the air...

I've done it by having my feet apart, and having my feet together...

What I am trying to accomplish specifically in that particular moment is what usually drives the choice of details.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-17-2008, 09:45 AM   #105
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I have been trying to figure out how to contribute to this thread in a useful way...
Ron, Ron, Ron... You're doing it wrong. Where's the vitriol? Where are the not-so-subtle inferences that yours is the one true way? Honestly, I thought you'd have these intarwebs figured out by now...



(For those of you who's humor detector is malfunctioning this morning, please read the above as, "Nice post Ron.")

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Old 10-17-2008, 11:07 AM   #106
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Thanks Chris!

B,
R (I'm so busy these days can't train or post much...probably make up for some that this weekend, 3 days with Inoue Sensei)

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Old 10-17-2008, 02:01 PM   #107
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Szczepan, you keep on insisting on what O'Sensei, Saito, Shioda, Chida, etc. do/did is wrong, don't you? It's ok. End of the matter for me. I'm not trying to convince you feet apart is t3h 0n1y w4y, but you keep insisting all these people are/were wrong. Amazing.
Hello Alejandro,
Thinking that you are able to do the techniques the same way like O Sensei, Saito, Shioda, Chida did, is a frightening illusion. We, mortals, we are simply not the same level. So you can't copy the forms of such masters directly, from video or pictures. This is particularly true, in the light of the fact, that every one of them developed his own unique pedagogical system.
So the question may rise -- what ‘normal' aikidoka should do in such horrible situation? Where to find the points that will lead our own development?
Surly not by looking for differences between the forms of these masters. Rather, by trying to find some common points in their forms. One of such common point is unbalancing, other is leading after unbalancing.
O sensei was able to unbalance his attacker even before contact -- so ukemi of his uke looks like they are almost jumping over him. If you look carefully at attached pictures in this thread, you can see that his uke landed far away from him. What was the reason?

After all these observations, ask yourself: can I do koshinage exactly as O sensei did?
If answer is YES! -- keep feet apart as O sensei did.
If answer is NO! -- don't copy, but use your intelligence to search how you must use your body to reproduce similar result. So you will discover THE way to use your feet correctly (feet together?), who knows? If I may suggest -- just to be sure that uke will not tanking, do these experiences with not very cooperative uke that has more experience then you in aikido.

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Old 10-17-2008, 02:58 PM   #108
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Hi Szczepan,

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Thinking that you are able to do the techniques the same way like O Sensei, Saito, Shioda, Chida did, is a frightening illusion. We, mortals, we are simply not the same level.
Sure. If I was able to do the techniques like them, I won't be here now !!

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Surly not by looking for differences between the forms of these masters. Rather, by trying to find some common points in their forms. One of such common point is unbalancing, other is leading after unbalancing.
True again. Another common point among these greats was to place feet appart, so that's what I try to do. And find it easier than feet togheter. Ok, maybe it's just me. No problem.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
After all these observations, ask yourself: can I do koshinage exactly as O sensei did?
Since answer is NO...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
If answer is NO! -- don't copy, but use your intelligence to search how you must use your body to reproduce similar result.
I don't mean to copy, but if they do it like that... I don't copy millimeter by millimeter and radian by radian, but I (try to) keep the principals the same. And my intelligence (or lack of it) says that feet appart:

1. is more stable,

2. lets me throw my opponent further,

3. allows me a clean and beautifull entry for kokyu nage,

4. permits me to watch my back (and my side),

5. makes it harder for uke to sutemize me or counter me in any way...

... and possibly more and more advantages. But that's what my brain says. Most probably other brains think different. And maybe I'm very wrong, but I have what I see as big reassons.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
just to be sure that uke will not tanking, do these experiences with not very cooperative uke that has more experience then you in aikido.
OMG, that's extremely very easy. I'm just a newbie in the arts!!

Best,
Alex.
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:24 PM   #109
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am not sure what you are looking for, over and above the comments I have already made.
The waza that is yours, the one that you evolved, probably reflects different variations done by different teachers. You may have taken some parts from one teacher and some from another. By the same token you may have rejected certain ways of doing it.

What is the logic you used to accept/reject a variation.

I am probably oversimplifying the learning proces, but I think that the question makes sence never the less.

Last edited by sorokod : 10-17-2008 at 03:32 PM.

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Old 10-18-2008, 01:21 AM   #110
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
The waza that is yours, the one that you evolved, probably reflects different variations done by different teachers.
PAG. Well, it might do, but the devil is in the detail. I am not sure what you yourself mean by 'reflects' here. The term might suggest a mirror image, but is the 'reflection' of different teachers sequential or simultaneous? This is always assuming that the reflection is real, i.e., genuine: that the waza of Shihan X is actually reflected in my own.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
You may have taken some parts from one teacher and some from another. By the same token you may have rejected certain ways of doing it.
PAG. You seem to be assuming that this is a conscious, logical process, but I have never learned aikido in this way. I have always been taught that the goal of training is to imitate as far as possible (with no conscious exclusions) the waza of the teacher. I believe that this is the SHU stage of SHU-HA-RI, but there is no conscious logical step to the HA stage. HA is not rejecting parts of any waza that you do not like, while keeping the rest. Nor is RI putting all the various bits together, like a patchwork quilt.

So I have been through the SHU stage with several different teachers (Chiba, Kanetsuka, Yamaguchi, Tada, Kitahira) and so have learned a number of variations of the same waza.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
What is the logic you used to accept/reject a variation.
PAG. I have never accepted or rejected a variation, so there is no logic. If you think about it, I would be very unlikely to reject a variation from someone with the knowledge of Yamaguchi or Tada. The issue here is not one of variations, but of attempting the master the entire waza as Yamaguchi or Tada did/does.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I am probably oversimplifying the learning proces, but I think that the question makes sence never the less.
PAG. I think the question makes sense, but, yes, I also think you are oversimplifying the learning process.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-18-2008, 02:47 AM   #111
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I'd say that the quality of reflection depends on the quality of the reflective surface, at least this is what I had in mind. To put the question in a different way, if "HA is not rejecting parts of any waza that you do not like, while keeping the rest", what is it?

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Old 10-18-2008, 05:59 AM   #112
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I'd say that the quality of reflection depends on the quality of the reflective surface, at least this is what I had in mind. To put the question in a different way, if "HA is not rejecting parts of any waza that you do not like, while keeping the rest", what is it?
PAG. I mentioned the SHU stage of SHU-HA-RI as a model of a learning process that, for example, enables one to practise koshi nage with feet apart or with feet together, depending on the teacher.

I think discussion of HA and RI is best left to a separate thread.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-18-2008, 11:40 AM   #113
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I'd say that the quality of reflection depends on the quality of the reflective surface, at least this is what I had in mind. To put the question in a different way, if "HA is not rejecting parts of any waza that you do not like, while keeping the rest", what is it?
David,

I'm an Iwama Ryu Godan living in Bangkok. Can you PM me details of your 2009 Thailand seminar?

Regards,
Richard
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Old 10-18-2008, 04:26 PM   #114
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I don't belive a thread about distance between feet got 100+ replies

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Old 10-18-2008, 04:32 PM   #115
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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I don't belive a thread about distance between feet got 100+ replies
We have much free time. How you do Koshi Nage then?
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Old 10-18-2008, 08:27 PM   #116
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

It's not so much the number of replies that surprises me as the underlying assumption that there is such a thing as one correct distance between the feet in koshi nage. As Prof. Goldsbury showed, O sensei's students show considerable technical variation, and so you can't single one out and saying he's being untrue to his teacher's legacy. We can't even settle on the "one true way" to do ikkyo or tai no henko; these same shihan do them differently. Chiba's ikkyo is nothing like Saito's. Nishio's tai no henko is not like Tada's. And that to me is a good thing, not an occasion to wonder who is being more faithful to what Morihei taught.
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:36 AM   #117
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
[...] not an occasion to wonder who is being more faithful to what Morihei taught.
This has nothing to do with fidelity, but we expose reasons as to why do it like this or like that. Of course, since quite a lot of us are in the SHU phase...
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:48 AM   #118
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Alejandro, you were the one who was positing Saito's waza was a more faithful reproduction of his master's koshinage. And also hypothesizing that a different stance, feet together, that Tada, Yamaguchi, etc preferred, was a result of postwar cross-pollination with judo and is not a faithful reflection of how O sensei did it. Perhaps the question is not whether a waza is more or less an accurate reproduction of how Morihei did his waza. Feet together, feet apart—what matters is how you manage to make the waza work for you. If you can reproduce six different flavors of koshi nage, as Prof. Goldsbury can, then so much the better for your students. In the end, an aikidoka will make waza that is his own.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:35 PM   #119
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Tobias Felipe wrote: View Post
I don't belive a thread about distance between feet got 100+ replies
Seriously, I was quite happy to know that it's quite common for people to do Koshi Nage the way my association does it.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:21 AM   #120
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Is this a complaint or a compliment?

Quote:
Tobias Felipe wrote: View Post
I don't belive a thread about distance between feet got 100+ replies
When you read the thread, there are a lot of things to which people responded. Koshi nage generally became the vehicle for talking about those issues too.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:18 PM   #121
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Is this a complaint or a compliment?

When you read the thread, there are a lot of things to which people responded. Koshi nage generally became the vehicle for talking about those issues too.
This is one of the most interesting/revealing portions of the thread to me, anyway.

BTW we tend to keep the feet close to keep our hips aligned over the legs, FWIW
Lan

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Old 10-20-2008, 04:23 PM   #122
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I tend to either keep the feet close, or sweep the foot back to get it out of the way.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:59 AM   #123
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
We have much free time. How you do Koshi Nage then?
I do koshi nage wrong.
About the feet thing, close enough to equilibrate, and far enough to equilibrate, that's how I measure.

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Old 10-21-2008, 07:08 AM   #124
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Tobias Felipe wrote: View Post
I do koshi nage wrong.
About the feet thing, close enough to equilibrate, and far enough to equilibrate, that's how I measure.
So I guess you do it right . But I would say close enough not to collapse, and far enough to equilibrate and not to lose hanmi.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:00 AM   #125
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Koshi nage's foot distance is just a little narrower that the distance of your shoulders. Try jumping forward roll on the highest level you could and that will be the best and powerful foot position you can use in applying koshi nage.

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