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Old 10-16-2008, 07:55 AM   #76
Flintstone
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Is there any picture of O'Sensei performing Koshi Nage with feet together? I'm more than ready to change my mind if I see the man himself doing it.

Anyway I'll be longing for your new installment on Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation. Even when I always though that at least Mochizuki and Sugino where proposed to inherit the art before Kisshomaru was. But that's another question altogether.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:06 AM   #77
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
What Alejandro said, plus the following.

All these are quotes from this thread:

O Sensei developed his art over 60 years of intensive training, the techniques (core techniques including koshi nage) are based on his experience, more precisely the techniques are his distilled experience. When people modify a technique claiming their own "understanding", I wander how it compares to Founder's (being extra polite here ).

Oh, and also this: there is a right way and there is a wrong way to do things, and while its true that there may be more then one right way, that does not mean that every way is OK.
Where to begin........... In terms of mechanics, to some degree, yes techniques all boil down to inherit motion(s) that render them as being true to a form. So for example ikkyo, regardless of aikido style, would be recognizable as ikkyo though the name might be different. But here lies the catch, when preforming technique, the circumstances are never the same, be it ma ai, different ukes(in regards to height sizes, aggressiveness etc) and a host of other circumstances, generally means you can't do the technique the same way every time. Even in Ikkyo, some styles say step in immediately or other say cut down the step in, other say take the ikkyo offline the line and away, other say cut down in arc, yadda yaddda yadda. So the point, yes techniques have a universal form to some extent, but its the application/execution/situation that renders degrees of efficiency. All the ways of doing Ikkyo have merit, but how you apply them,being the various ways, yields degrees of efficiency. But there is no magical cookie cutter way/technique that works on everyone can every single time. There is form, then degrees of efficiency of the application of said form. You want the so called "right way" save it for testing where you have to do it a certain way to be graded on with semi complaint ukes who don't want you to look bad during testing and predetermined attacks and responses.

Back to the thread topic, go ahead and use the wide stance. There wont be this great schism in aikido like there was in between catholic and orthodox churches over this. There will just be people who will walk with a limp and those walk away from throwing koshinage without a limp. Probably like 99 times you throw with the wide stance, you will be safe; its that last 1% that will get you. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, (though personally wise stance looks sloppy to me) its more of matter of safety.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:26 AM   #78
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

In Gaku Homma's book "The structure of aikido" he performs koshi nage with feet apart but he clearly states that nage, for his own safety, has to retract the extended leg to avoid uke falling on it. (pg 132 in the spanish edition).

iirc Homma was a live in student of the founder at Iwama.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-16-2008 at 09:32 AM.

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Old 10-16-2008, 10:12 AM   #79
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Is there any picture of O'Sensei performing Koshi Nage with feet together? I'm more than ready to change my mind if I see the man himself doing it.

Anyway I'll be longing for your new installment on Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation. Even when I always though that at least Mochizuki and Sugino where proposed to inherit the art before Kisshomaru was. But that's another question altogether.
This thread is amazing...

Out of curiosity, do you end every technique with one arm raised overhead as you pin (as was demonstrated quite clearly in the Noma dojo photos)? Perhaps you do, but this whole thread reminds me of religious conservatives who cling to minutia of scripture as if their very life depended on it (worse, their very soul!), while glossing over and ignoring commands, rules and doctrines that once carried just as much weight in their religious communities.

In most of the photos that people have posted in this thread, nage is quite clearly looking at the ground. I have never met a single aikido or jujutsu teacher that said that we *should* be looking at the ground while we do technique. Certainly sometimes our spine inclines forward and our gaze drops from the horizon, but even then the eyes should be trying to gaze up and out (in order to align the neck and torso). And yet, looking at photos of "the greats" so so many of them are looking at their feet. Do we emulate that with equal conviction or is that similar to the text of the Christian bible that relates to pig's flesh?

In closing, I'll relate a story.

I forget where I heard this one, so please forgive me. A woman was preparing a Christmas ham the same way she had learned from her mother years ago. Her husband had watched her make this recipe for several years. This year, he watched her carefully cut off the front and back of the ham and toss those portions in the trash. She then set the ham in her pan and got ready to cook it. "Why do you cut the ends off?" he asked. "Well, that's how my mother taught me," she replied. "Well why does she do it, that's not how my mother did it." Never having thought of it before, she decided to call her mother to find out.

"Mom, why do we cut the ends off of the ham before we cook it?" she asked. "I don't know," her mother replied, "that's just how my mother did it." Intrigued, the women called the source.

The granddaughter asked, "Gran, why do we cut the ends off of the ham before we cook it?" "What do you mean?" asked the grandmother. "You know, before we cook the ham we cut the ends off and throw them out, why do we do that?"

"You idiots, when your mother was little we didn't have many pans and I didn't have one big enough to fit a whole ham..." she replied.

If you think I'm being silly here, you'd be right, but I'm not the only one.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:23 AM   #80
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
In my 'aikido life', I have been privileged to have been taught koshinage by at least six of O Sensei's direct deshi (M Saito, S Yamaguchi, H Tada, K Chiba, M Kanai, M Kitahira). So I think I am in a position to make some comparisons. Of these deshi, all except one placed their feet fairly close together, either in shizentai ('natural posture', with feet place about one foot apart) or in a T form (kusunoki: the base / stem of the T focused on uke--my own hips were never flexible enough to use the T form: I am aware that kusunoki also denotes the general position of tori's hips, in relation to uke's, but I think this is less important here). The exception was Morihito Saito, who always kept his feet apart--and always did koshi-nage successfully. So it might be that the position of the feet do not really matter: there are other factors that are far more crucial to successful koshi-waza.
...
Seeing the same technique done in different ways by people you respect, how do you resolve the differences? How do you explain it to yourself, not from historical point of view, but from "which way should I do it" point of view. I guess my question boils down to "how do you choose what to teach your students"?
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:23 AM   #81
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Out of curiosity, do you end every technique with one arm raised overhead as you pin (as was demonstrated quite clearly in the Noma dojo photos)?
Only when I previously have "beheaded" uke and, what is more important, sensei is not looking.


Nice story, btw. Food for thougth.

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Old 10-16-2008, 10:25 AM   #82
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Out of curiosity, do you end every technique with one arm raised overhead as you pin (as was demonstrated quite clearly in the Noma dojo photos)? Perhaps you do [...]
More often than not.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
[...], but this whole thread reminds me of religious conservatives who cling to minutia of scripture as if their very life depended on it (worse, their very soul!), while glossing over and ignoring commands, rules and doctrines that once carried just as much weight in their religious communities.
That's an awful comparation, if I may say.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
In most of the photos that people have posted in this thread, nage is quite clearly looking at the ground. I have never met a single aikido or jujutsu teacher that said that we *should* be looking at the ground while we do technique.
Gess you've never been at an Iwama Ryu dojo, then.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
And yet, looking at photos of "the greats" so so many of them are looking at their feet.
Maybe they know better than us.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Do we emulate that with equal conviction or is that similar to the text of the Christian bible that relates to pig's flesh?
Not an expert in Christian bible myself. I don't know what you're talking about, but again this comparation looks ugly to me.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
"You idiots, when your mother was little we didn't have many pans and I didn't have one big enough to fit a whole ham..." she replied.
This is neither relevant nor related to the matter at hand. Are you implying that "the greats" had a reason to do Koshi Nage feet apart than no longer applies? If so, what could that be?
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:27 AM   #83
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Only when I previously have "beheaded" uke and, what is more important, sensei is not looking.
This one was good, Demetrio !! But you don't need to behead uke to finish the technique with an atemi...
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:31 AM   #84
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

For me the question of "form" brings up analogies with language and music. Language has a grammar, for example, that determines proper "form" of sentences, but in any living language it is a generative grammar that enables the fluent speaker to create any number of sentences.

I don't want to overstate any comparison between a language and Aikido or other martial arts; however, consider then the following entry from Aikiwiki:

"TakemusuAiki:

A 'slogan' of the founder's meaning 'infinitely generative martial art of aiki.' Thus, a synonym for aikido. The scope of aikido is not limited only to the standard, named techniques one studies regularly in practice. Rather, these standard techniques serve as repositories of more fundamental principles (kihon). Once one has internalized the kihon, it is possible to generate a virtually infinite variety of new aikido techniques in accordance with novel conditions."

Retrieved from "http://aikiweb.com/wiki/TakemusuAiki"

Look at music and the art of improvisation. Improvisation is structured sponteniety, as distinguished from a sound I might make doing music "anyway" I want. It is responsive to context as well -- e.g., the context of other musicians performances.

To me the apparent delimma in trying to decide what is the correct form stems from not placing the concept of Takemusu Aiki along side form, and seeing it as "repositories of more fundamental principles (kihon)."

DH
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:39 AM   #85
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Now seriously

I'm not sure if being very exact and picky about things like these makes sense.

If we're talking about kihon/kata then maybe, but if we're talking about throwing people for real (people who do no want to be thrown, and what is worse, wants to throw you) then a lot of adjustments are needed.

Context is everything.

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Old 10-16-2008, 10:55 AM   #86
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If you think I'm being silly here, you'd be right, but I'm not the only one.
It is natural to desire to make the thing that we study, our own, and one of the ways to exercise this ownership is to change it.
Whether this change makes sense depends on the level of expertise, or more precisely to the relative level of expertise. Relative between your level and the Founder's that is.

As much as I dislike dogma and "arguments from authority", logically there is no alternative here that does not make the art a pale copy of itself.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:56 AM   #87
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Is there any picture of O'Sensei performing Koshi Nage with feet together? I'm more than ready to change my mind if I see the man himself doing it.
This was posted ;
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Right column, second down ... feet seem to be closer together although the hakama obscures stuff as usual.
I'm sure having the feet close together during a transitional movement can still allow the feet-apart stance before and after and that cool look with the hand up in the air. "Shazam!"

I'm also sure Ueshiba's legs were strong enough that he didn't need to have his feet together to get the most strength into his stance and avoid injury. He himself said he could lift a LOT of weight when he was younger.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:58 AM   #88
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
That's an awful comparation, if I may say.
You may, although I think you're getting caught up in details not principles.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Gess you've never been at an Iwama Ryu dojo, then.
No, although I did get my shodan from Kurita Minouru Shihan's Aikido Seikikai and he spent a lot of time in Iwama with OSensei. Their technical syllabus very closely resembles the Iwama stuff. Interestingly we were instructed to do koshinage with the feet no more than a foot apart. So let me get this straight, you've been taught to do your waza looking at the ground and that is a trademark of the Iwama style of Aikido?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Not an expert in Christian bible myself. I don't know what you're talking about, but again this comparation looks ugly to me.
You could read some of this if you were so inclined.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
This is neither relevant nor related to the matter at hand. Are you implying that "the greats" had a reason to do Koshi Nage feet apart than no longer applies? If so, what could that be?
There's lots of reasons people do things the way they do. Bad knees, bad backs, wrecked shoulders, personal preference, being tall, being short, having strong legs, not having strong legs...

The case could be made for feet close or feet wide, but if you're hitting the principles behind the specifics it doesn't really matter. Personally I don't really do this koshinage anymore, preferring many of judo's koshi throws.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:06 AM   #89
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Right column, second down ... feet seem to be closer together although the hakama obscures stuff as usual.
I'm sure having the feet close together during a transitional movement can still allow the feet-apart stance before and after and that cool look with the hand up in the air. "Shazam!"
No. Take a second or a third look at the pics .
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:11 AM   #90
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
So let me get this straight, you've been taught to do your waza looking at the ground and that is a trademark of the Iwama style of Aikido?
It's a trademark of O'Sensei, since Saito clearly stated he did the Aikido of O'Sensei. Ey! I'm not even a Iwama guy myself! But in Iwama, the teaching is that, yes: look up to you arm while you extend uke up and forward, and then look down to perform the actual throw, so your hand (and uke's) will follow your head. That's a pretty good rationale too.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You could read some of this if you were so inclined.
Sorry, I'm not.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
There's lots of reasons people do things the way they do. Bad knees, bad backs, wrecked shoulders, personal preference, being tall, being short, having strong legs, not having strong legs...
So all of them had the same reassons, and somehow we don't have them anymore? I don't think all of them had bad knees or wrecked shoulders anyway.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Personally I don't really do this koshinage anymore, preferring many of judo's koshi throws.
That would explain something. But we were talking Aikido throws.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:14 AM   #91
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
and then look down to perform the actual throw, so your hand (and uke's) will follow your head. That's a pretty good rationale too.
Not in the branch I practise. May be we don't have t3h r34l Iwama....

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Old 10-16-2008, 11:23 AM   #92
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not in the branch I practise. May be we don't have t3h r34l Iwama....
Actually it's looking back rather than down. How you do it then, Demetrio? Never seen you or anyone from your dojo!! Anyway I don't care about teh r3a1 Iw4m4, or the R341 Y0231k4|\|, just about proper principals. I'm still a loooong road ahead!!
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:28 AM   #93
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

don't know about you folks but I really liked Kuroiwa's approach to koshi nage in this film clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M If you noticed his feet and body structure, it's a very casual approach, yet very nicely done. he seemed to move his leg, as he cross over, to make a hole for uke to fall in and to keep uke from falling on his leg. did i mention i really like his koshi nage? really really really like it.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:33 AM   #94
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Actually it's looking back rather than down. How you do it then, Demetrio?
Not to totally the front, not totally the back and never to the ground (if you look to the ground you'll end in the ground). Something in the middle to keep a wide perspective about the surroundings and keeping peripheral vision...IHTBF

Quote:
I'm still a loooong road ahead!!
Me too.

BTW, the first time I watched Kuroiwa's clip Phi posted, I said to myself: "I do want this, this guy is amazing!!!"

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-16-2008 at 11:37 AM.

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Old 10-16-2008, 11:41 AM   #95
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't know about you folks but I really liked Kuroiwa's approach to koshi nage in this film clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M
Like it too!!

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not to totally the front, not totally the back and never to the ground (if you look to the ground you'll end in the ground). Something in the middle to keep a wide perspective about the surroundings and keeping peripheral vision...IHTBF
I see. But the principals are the same. Anyway, something in the middle is always better than something in the extremes. IHTBF however.
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:09 PM   #96
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't know about you folks but I really liked Kuroiwa's approach to koshi nage in this film clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M If you noticed his feet and body structure, it's a very casual approach, yet very nicely done. he seemed to move his leg, as he cross over, to make a hole for uke to fall in and to keep uke from falling on his leg. did i mention i really like his koshi nage? really really really like it.
But he does it with his feet apart and then together and then stepping through!!! Which one is THE RIGHT way???

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Old 10-16-2008, 12:21 PM   #97
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
But he does it with his feet apart and then together and then stepping through!!! Which one is THE RIGHT way???
his way? he got the feet apart to satisfy the folks who liked feet apart. he got feet together for folks who liked feet together. he got T-feet to keep T-feet folks happy. together he made me happy.

i am happy! he's happy! are you happy? savvy?
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Old 10-16-2008, 12:28 PM   #98
C. David Henderson
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

I'm happy you posted that video.

DH
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Old 10-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #99
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
If uke remains firmly anchored to the ground, then the waza becomes very difficult, if not impossible.

Best wishes to all,

PAG
That is very important remark, and is valid for all techniques in aikido.
The right way of doing techniques comes not from pictures, some esoteric explanations or opinons expressed in conversations, but from correct using of biomechanic of human body.

So the question is, how, in koshinage, one unroot uke from the ground to put him on the toes AND preserve this state until he fall down - using one hand? one wrist? It is simply not possible unless uke is jumping by himself.
One must use his WHOLE body, in preference, legs and hips, that contains the biggest muscles. This is only possible when one use horizontal and vertical dimention of movement. With legs apart such most effectif way of using human body is impossible.

Nagababa

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Old 10-16-2008, 03:53 PM   #100
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Szczepan, you keep on insisting on what O'Sensei, Saito, Shioda, Chida, etc. do/did is wrong, don't you? It's ok. End of the matter for me. I'm not trying to convince you feet apart is t3h 0n1y w4y, but you keep insisting all these people are/were wrong. Amazing.
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