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Old 10-13-2008, 01:24 AM   #26
akiy
 
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Re: Koshi Nage

Hi folks,

Please watch your tone. Some posts here are getting personal in nature and off of the topic of the thread.

-- Jun

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Old 10-13-2008, 02:28 AM   #27
ilia rudnitskiy
 
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Re: Koshi Nage

Ah, this whole thread is very confusing so I'm going to respond to the original poster...

I've seen koshinage done two ways: with feet a bit more than shoulder width apart, and with feet about 8 inches apart... However, I've never seen it done with the feet together.

Part of the reason is, as some already stated, instability... if you have your feet slightly apart, you should have enough stability to perform a good koshinage.

Also, what i think is:
feet far apart = uke travels more of a horizontal distance
feet closee together = uke travels less horizontal distance

Personally, I perform koshinage with my feet fairly close together, and when I perform the throw, I move sideways so that uke falls straight below where I was standing... I find that this is a quicker and harder fall for uke (so obviously I do it slower on less-experienced people), and I also find it to be much easier for myself since i don't have to keep the weight of uke for as long.

But all in all, it can be done both ways... i.e. if you want to throw uke far, spread your feet farther; if you want to just drop them, keep your feet close; if you have amazing balance you can probably do it with your feet together but it won't make much of a difference if any.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:22 AM   #28
Ed Stansfield
 
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Re: Koshi Nage

Hello,

I don't practice a lot of koshinage, so my words can be safely ignored.

That said...

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.
I also agree. For example:

The distance between his feet varies, but see 1.03, 1.24, 1.31, 1.58.

Or look at the picture on page 24-25 of "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature" (the drawing by Mitsugi Saotome and then the photo of Hiroshi Ikeda).

Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
Saito demonstrates, why is important to be able to turn towards your blind spot once the throw is completed. This approach allows for multiple attackers and indicates true Aikido quality.
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva (in reply to Alex Lawrence) wrote:
Yes, but here we're talking about Aikido's Koshi Nage in contrast to other arts' Koshi Nage(s). And one fundamental to keep is "watch your back; that foe has friends!".
I agree that the idea that "there are many enemies" is important. However, it is too much of a jump for me to say that this is the determining factor of whether something is, or isn't koshinage (or indeed, Aikido, as the arguments above appear to run). If it was, then wouldn't we be led to the conclusion that Ikkyo isn't an Aikido technique?

Or going back to the Tissier example above, would it really be said that sometimes he's doing koshinage and sometimes he isn't? How close do his feet have to be before it's not koshinage?

For me, a better way to determine would start from the question "Does this technique embody the principles of Aiki?"; I cannot see why you cannot employ and embody those principles while creating a koshinage with your feet close together. If you did that, then for me it would be Aikido.

Best,

Ed

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

Winston Churchill, 1930.
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Old 10-13-2008, 04:38 AM   #29
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.
I am very interested to know what those fundamentals are. Could you enumerate them please?
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:29 AM   #30
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Ed Stansfield wrote: View Post
...For me, a better way to determine would start from the question "Does this technique embody the principles of Aiki?"; I cannot see why you cannot employ and embody those principles while creating a koshinage with your feet close together. If you did that, then for me it would be Aikido...
What are the principals that make a hip throw a koshi nage?
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:07 AM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
What are the principals that make a hip throw a koshi nage?
A hip (koshi) and a nage (throw). From there you can go byzantine about feet position, number of enemies, weapons or not, how x shihan does it et c. but...WWUD?

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Old 10-13-2008, 06:38 AM   #32
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Re: Koshi Nage

I'd be delighted to use principles when judging an execution of a technique. Some people seemed to imply that they have them, hence my questions.
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:41 AM   #33
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If (big If) the sword wielding unfriendly guy is behind you, but maybe he is not behind you...
Absolutely. Anyway you (generic you) may feel like to sneak a peek. Not a judoka myself, but I never do koshi nage with feet together. Sometimes closer, sometimes wider a stance, but never together. Me.
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:32 AM   #34
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Koshi Nage

It is a mistake to be preoccupied with the name of the throw, because, functionally, "nage" is deceptive. Properly executed, one does not "throw." Were one to use a name that describes what one does, it is "koshi-kake." (Hip-trip). In whatever position you have your feet, you establish kuzushi (uke is forward weighted on the balls of the feet), and you position your hips at a point right above his knees. The effect should be the same as if, unawares, one walked into a tightly stretched rope at that height. In classic aikido, the hips are perpendicular to the uke. Finally, it is very important to maintain your hip height until uke goes over. If you start to stand up, or heave him on your hips, you will actually restore his balance (unless he's a dive bunny). The same is true for judo's ogoshi, btw.
Best

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Old 10-13-2008, 10:55 AM   #35
maynard
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Re: Koshi Nage

The usual recommendation that I've seen in my little circle of friends is to keep the feet close together. If the feet are too far apart, sometimes uke lands on nage's leg, potentially causing injury to nage's knee via pressure from the outside of the leg while the leg is being used as a support.

Having one's feet close together is a little awkward at first, but balance with one's feet close together while bearing uke's weight can be learned and developed. Of course, as Amdur Sensei and others have noted, ideally, there should be little to no load during the throw, but we all have to start somewhere.

Last edited by maynard : 10-13-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:30 PM   #36
Don_Modesto
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
John Murray wrote: View Post
The usual recommendation that I've seen in my little circle of friends is to keep the feet close together. If the feet are too far apart, sometimes uke lands on nage's leg, potentially causing injury to nage's knee via pressure from the outside of the leg while the leg is being used as a support.
I almost injured my know once doing the technique with feet apart. It was a big guy and one leg took all the weight. Don't have the same problem with feet together. Feet together increases strength.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:29 PM   #37
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
John Murray wrote: View Post
If the feet are too far apart, sometimes uke lands on nage's leg, potentially causing injury to nage's knee via pressure from the outside of the leg while the leg is being used as a support.
That's why you want to shift your weight during the throw from your leg closest to uke, to the other. He won't fall on your leg this way. A swinging motion as explained by John Driscoll Sensei at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=14306Driscoll .
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Old 10-13-2008, 04:56 PM   #38
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
A swinging motion as explained by John Driscoll Sensei at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=14306Driscoll .
Very nice, this will teach me to use the search in the future.
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:44 PM   #39
Ketsan
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I'd be delighted to use principles when judging an execution of a technique. Some people seemed to imply that they have them, hence my questions.
Not have principles, are using principles!

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I am very interested to know what those fundamentals are. Could you enumerate them please?
Right, I do not claim to be right here.............just less wrong than some people.

Well in order for a technique to be refered to as Koshi Nage uke has to travel across tori's hips. At the time of kuzushi tori's hips should be perpendicular to ukes and uke and tori should be in contact.
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:00 AM   #40
sorokod
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Not have principles, are using principles!
Are you saying that they can not be expressed in words? If so, why bring them up, in an on line discussion, at all?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Well in order for a technique to be refered to as Koshi Nage uke has to travel across tori's hips. At the time of kuzushi tori's hips should be perpendicular to ukes and uke and tori should be in contact.
Sounds in line with some of the descriptions seen in this thread.
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:00 AM   #41
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Hi everyone!

As an aside relating to foot position, but not directly relating to an aikido koshinage, the basic hip throws I've been taught at a school of jujitsu involved having the feet close together (heels touching). The reasoning seemed to be that it kept your balance very much in one, small footprint; for a couple of reasons I could see and probably many more I couldn't.

Firstly, it made clear in the mind that the point was to be a pivot, in the way of your uke, so that they move over your hips (much like described by Ellis Amdur, in fact the basic throws were o goshi and koshi garuma).

Secondly, more technical leg-throws were taught further up the syllabus, where nage balances on one leg and uses the other to 'encourage' ukes fall by perhaps sweeping back and up taking the legs sooner (I think). These throws came from the same or similar basic posture, and being able to take one leg off the ground is much easier if your weight is neutral over a very small footprint: i.e. if your feet are already touching, you are more likely to have learnt a neutral posture and be able to take either leg off the floor quickly. This would mean you would have flexibility as to which technique to perform for a much longer period in the execution of a technique.

So in that particular school, with admittedly my take on some of the 'whys', the foot position made sense. What I took away from it is that in those throws, the feet being together wasn't specifically a technical aspect for those actual techniques, but good habits allowing for flexibility in technique later on. Which is a good enough reason to do those throws in that way. To clarify, I'm only a 5th kyu in jujitsu, I'm not claiming any vast knowledge or experience, just my own take

Aside complete, the koshi nages I've practised in my own school (of aikido) have the feet parallel, perpendicular to uke, and hip-width. Which makes sense for the way we do those throws. Foolishly I once though "ah! I think for hip throws the feet should be touching!" - transferring knowledge across arts without considering the actual reasons - and it didn't really help. The mechanics of the throws were different enough for the the hip-width posture to work better in those techniques from our school. Our style doesn't do many koshi nage, and so I can only say this observation applies to the specific techniques I know - but I think the point makes sense on a general level.

So, my take would be that for each specific throw, there's probably a good reason for the technical details encompassed in that throw, even if some aren't for the first reasons one might think.

Last edited by akiy : 10-14-2008 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 10-14-2008, 06:38 AM   #42
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Quote:
Philip McDermott wrote: View Post
...Secondly, more technical leg-throws were taught further up the syllabus, where nage balances on one leg and uses the other to 'encourage' ukes fall by perhaps sweeping back and up taking the legs sooner...
It is my understanding that the Founder took a dim view of being on one foot, because it restricts the freedom to move. Actually, how about this for a principal: "be free to move", which boils down to hanmi. Seems to work for koshi-nage indicating that it should be finished with the nage in hanmi.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:41 AM   #43
Ketsan
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Are you saying that they can not be expressed in words? If so, why bring them up, in an on line discussion, at all?
My original question was and is a question purely of stylistics and not of principle. You can perform Koshi Nage with a wide stance, a narrow stance and in fact you can even do it balanced on one foot. Hip positioning is a principle, foot placement isn't, it's just the result of placing your hips correctly. IMO of course again I do not claim to be right here.

All Aikidoka I have met use a wide stance, the association I belong to, as far as I knew at the time, were the only people using a narrow stance, and I was curious to know if we were the only ones using a narrow stance.

Now I know that it's actually quite common.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:47 AM   #44
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Would say feet together for a few reasons:

1. to keep uke from landing on your leg
2. to teach nage to bend his knees to scoop up uke with his butt, keeping uke on the small flat of his back
3. to keep koshi nage movement from being more of tripping motion like in judo. Not that there is anything wrong about tripping; we talking aikido throws.

Oh and shame on everyone for letting this conversation degrade into school yard name calling match.
And shame on you Jen, you are teacher you should know better not to get drawn into a fight like that. Where is your awareness, zanshin?????????

Pathetic.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:30 AM   #45
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Re: Koshi Nage

SmilingNage, thank you for bringing this again to us. Actually the one being impolite was her. Here, read:

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
And you might be a fat woman in a tutu. I've never seen you either.

I'm certain I haven't stated how I do koshi nage.
That said,

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
1. to keep uke from landing on your leg
2. to teach nage to bend his knees to scoop up uke with his butt, keeping uke on the small flat of his back
3. to keep koshi nage movement from being more of tripping motion like in judo. Not that there is anything wrong about tripping; we talking aikido throws.
1. Uke will not land on your leg by doing a proper Aikido Koshi Nage a la O'Sensei, i.e. with "that" swinging motion.

2. One footed, cross-legged, heels together or shoulder width apart, if tori is smaller than uke, he (generic he) must bend the knees... but the goal is to keep your hip under uke's, not bending the knees per se.

3. It's not tripping but swinging uke over tori's hips. Nothing to do with Judo. Not that Judo's way is wrong, though.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:48 AM   #46
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Someone told me the other day that after ducks get into conflict with each other, they shake it off, making a loud sound. Hmm...

Koshi nage. Oh yeah. We do it with feet close together, for reasons that have been mentioned.

I got the wave metaphor; don't know why it went south.

Regards,

DH
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Old 10-14-2008, 12:59 PM   #47
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
It is a mistake to be preoccupied with the name of the throw, because, functionally, "nage" is deceptive. Properly executed, one does not "throw." Were one to use a name that describes what one does, it is "koshi-kake." (Hip-trip). In whatever position you have your feet, you establish kuzushi (uke is forward weighted on the balls of the feet), and you position your hips at a point right above his knees. The effect should be the same as if, unawares, one walked into a tightly stretched rope at that height. In classic aikido, the hips are perpendicular to the uke. Finally, it is very important to maintain your hip height until uke goes over. If you start to stand up, or heave him on your hips, you will actually restore his balance (unless he's a dive bunny). The same is true for judo's ogoshi, btw.
Best
I disagree.
Certainly nage does actually throw attacker -- because it is a part of leading him. Nage must use a complete body to execute koshinage, and particularly both legs are very important in this process. The legs have the biggest muscles in human body, so it is funny to advice not to use it. One can't even maintain initial kuzushi without using a spring capacity of legs during koshinage. As Shioda sensei well remarked, all power in aikido comes from big toe. One must push his both feet (big toes) against a ground; this will create a power to throw. This power is transmitted by ankles joins, knees and leg muscles to the hips and from the hips to attacker. Power from hips will be used to maintain kuzushi(little bit as if one use a both hands to set up a bow before send an arrow) and to end the throw. More hips will spring up in the end of throw, more powerful kuzushi will be. It is particularly true with heavy attacker (that not only has a lot of weight, but also knows how to use it against nage )
This is proper body mechanics in koshinage.

Of course, in case when uke jumps by himself over nage hips, nage can safely stay all way down, he will be kind of dead obstacle for acrobatic jumper. However if attacker knows ho to use his weight, and nage will stay down, uke simply will lay over nage hips and push him down -- impossible to maintain correct kuzushi then.

For those who want to do koshinage with feet wide -- try to throw uke that weight 150 kg . LOL. I had such pleasure few times -- one learns fast to get legs together otherwise one will injure himself.

Nagababa

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Old 10-14-2008, 03:02 PM   #48
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
For those who want to do koshinage with feet wide -- try to throw uke that weight 150 kg . LOL. I had such pleasure few times -- one learns fast to get legs together otherwise one will injure himself.
Been there, done that. Many times. Honest. No big deal. Of course, if you try to lift uke, you will collapse... but if you swing your body, oh, then you've got the "throw". Come on Szczepan, you know what I mean. You don't need that springing motion you describe (nothing wrong with it, just you don't need it).
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:33 PM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet

Maybe a clip of O Sensei performing koshi nage could be useful in this thread. I think he knew something about aikido.

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:44 PM   #50
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Re: Koshi Nage

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
SmilingNage, thank you for bringing this again to us. Actually the one being impolite was her. Here, read:

That said,

1. Uke will not land on your leg by doing a proper Aikido Koshi Nage a la O'Sensei, i.e. with "that" swinging motion.

2. One footed, cross-legged, heels together or shoulder width apart, if tori is smaller than uke, he (generic he) must bend the knees... but the goal is to keep your hip under uke's, not bending the knees per se.

3. It's not tripping but swinging uke over tori's hips. Nothing to do with Judo. Not that Judo's way is wrong, though.
Maybe we misunderstand each other, I believe we were talking about close or wide stance. So let me try to clear it up the best I can.

If you throw with a wide stance in most koshi nages applications, the likely hood of nage coming down on your knee/leg is much higher, that is a fact.

Actually bend the knees should be more of a flexing of the knees to load uke on to your koshi. So you can scoop him up with your hip motion. Otherwise You cant get under uke's center without flexing or bending at the knees. Uke will most likely run into your back and not be loaded probably.

With a wide stance its harder to get both "cheeks" into the throw. Most often only one cheek gets into the throw. Making it more akin to a judo sweep/throw.

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