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Old 10-01-2008, 12:24 PM   #1
avi-rosenberg
Dojo: Aikikai Rehovot
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chronic wrist pain

Hi all
Although I've been a lurker for quite some time this is my first posting.
In the last few years I have had chronic joint pains in my knees and wrists and other places. I've been diagnosed with osteo-arthritis, but the doctors have not offered me any way of treating it. I've been taking glucosomine, but it doesn't seem to help. I've learned to deal with my knee problem and am trying to strengthen the muscles there with various exercises, but I am particularly concerned with my wrists right now. The pain has become a real impediment in much of my aikido practice. I was wondering if anyone knows of any treatments for the wrists or of any way of strengthening them.
Thanks,
Avi Rosenberg
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:35 PM   #2
lbb
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Re: chronic wrist pain

You're asking a question that really is a doctor question -- if your doctor isn't offering you anything helpful, I'd look for another doctor. I could give you some tips if you had rheumatoid arthritis, but not osteo (although I don't think strengthening exercises will help, but there might be other stuff that does).
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Old 10-01-2008, 02:14 PM   #3
SmilingNage
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Re: chronic wrist pain

1st I would determine if it was training that was the cause of your aches. Take a week or so off and see how you feel.

I find alot of newer people in Aikido tend not to move their feet when technique is applied to them. Moving your feet can help especially when dealing with sankyo, kote gaeshi and nikyo. So move in accordance when you feel pain.

I found weapons work can build up your wrist strength. As well as doing the basic wrist warm up exercises during the day

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:53 PM   #4
aikidoc
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Knee pain may be helped with Hyalgan or Synivisc injections to restore the natural lubricant of the knee. See an orthopedist or rheumatologist.

If the pain is bilateral (both wrists and knees) you need to get checked for rheumatoid.

I find patients get good results with glucosamine, boswellic acids and fish oils .
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Old 10-02-2008, 04:34 AM   #5
avi-rosenberg
Dojo: Aikikai Rehovot
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Thank you for your responses. Actually I took two months off from Aikido training and found that the condition more or less remained the same. But the sankyo, kote gaeshi and nikkyo techniques are pretty excruciating. Even though I wear a wrist band I usually have to remind the nage to take it easy.

Last edited by avi-rosenberg : 10-02-2008 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:59 AM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: chronic wrist pain

It is usually pretty straightforward to see osteoarthritis on a simple xray. Also called degenerative joint disease, or DJD, it means that the cartilage has worn away from the ends of the bones, there is excess space between joints, maybe some calcification/bone spurs growing. If no xrays have been done, I strongly recommend getting a doctor who will order them.
In addition to what John Riggs suggests, some folks find relief with capsaicin based topical ointments/creams; apparently the regular use of this overwhelms the sensory nerves and over time may actually keep them from firing. It is NOT a good idea to use it on a new, acute injury because you need the sensory nerves to give you feedback on pain so you let it rest and heal. The thinking is that on osteoarthritis the pain is essentially chronic, longterm and you need to cope with it to get on living...
Having said that, obviously you don't want to keep heavy cranking/use that will make the joint damage progress even faster! A combo of exercise and rest is usually suggested, but each of us needs to figure out how this applies to ourself.
The problem with wrists is that there is very little muscle to develop to strenghten them, mostly the wrist is bone and tendon. I agree with the poster who suggested weapons; if you can tolerate doing suburi or kata w/o pain, doing it to the point where it hasn't hurt yet and doing it regularly sure would help.
In terms of training, can you suggest folks do alternate techniques (like applying sankyo to the fingertips or kotegaishe to your forearm)?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-02-2008, 03:42 PM   #7
aikidoc
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Good comments Janet, although I don't recommend capsaicin on the wrists-unfortunately people rub their eyes with the backs of their wrists and that would be equivalent to a shot of pepper spray. Also, do not exercise or sweat after using it or it will burn like hell-voice of experience-and might even blister. Occasionally, people are sensitive to the capsaicin as well (rash).

X-Rays are essential in diagnosing the form of arthritis or the lack there of. Also, blood work up may need to be done to rule out rheumatoid arthritis or some form of inflammatory arthritis.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:18 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: chronic wrist pain

hmmm, I never do that (rub my eyes with my wrists) so the caveat never occurred to me

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-02-2008, 07:04 PM   #9
aikidoc
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Re: chronic wrist pain

It might be a guy thing wiping sweat from the eyes with the back of the hand/wrist. I see people do it all the time. Capsaicin in the eyes is not much fun so since people can't put their elbows in their eyes I tell them not to put it below the elbows. Then if they do and stick it in the eyes they are on their own. In today's litigous society you have to cover all bases.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:08 AM   #10
lbb
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Re: chronic wrist pain

"Rubbing in eyes" is going to be a hazard with any kind of ointment; you either learn to be careful or do without. Can't say I ever thought about suing anyone because I used the Tiger Balm Red on a sore spot and then it did the predictable thing when it came into contact with my eyes.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:34 AM   #11
Mato-san
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Stretch your wrists before practice...sounds like you left that too late. Your Sensei should have clued you in on that. The sankyo,nikkyo and kotegaishi stretches are nice if you want to avoid such pain... but the techniques themselves will not injure you badly..kotegaishi is debatable but.. take a break and stretch before you play.
Peace

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:40 AM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: chronic wrist pain

If a person has arthritis, all the wrist stretches in the world ain't gonna prevent or fix it.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:01 AM   #13
CarrieP
 
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Re: chronic wrist pain

That Capsaicin is pretty strong stuff, yes indeedy.

I was chopping a jalapeno for some chili a couple weeks ago and thought I had washed my hands thoroughly. I soon realized I was wrong.

Thankfully, there was just a little residue left, so it was more of an intense tingling than a burning, but it was about 5 to 10 minutes of uncomfortableness.

Funny thing is, I don't really remember rubbing my eyes.

Could have been worse, though.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:06 PM   #14
thomas.martinez
Dojo: Motobu Udun Te Hombu, Okinawa
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Ki Symbol Re: chronic wrist pain

Most injuries in Aikido, whether people realizes or not, conforms with joints locks using "physical" strength (forcing and/or resisting). Maybe perhaps improper training.
It is tough enough knowingly to deal with arthritis. (I don't know the severity). But seems you have the love and passion to continue Aikido for all these years.
May I simply suggest: One of the key facts is to stay warm, a must, and continue practicing your Aikido--keeping moving and do not (stressing) over do it.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:58 PM   #15
Lan Powers
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Re: chronic wrist pain

A completely different aspect of the eye-rubbing thing is for your wrists to be treated, then grabbed in the course of keiko, and then THAT guy gets a nasty surprise when he wipes sweat away.

Seems to be a lot of folks stay pretty sore in the wrists....mostly fades for me after a few days tho, so it isn't obviously arthritus.
I sympathise. (no usefull advice that hasn't been said already tho.)
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:07 PM   #16
aikidoc
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Rubbing in eyes" is going to be a hazard with any kind of ointment; you either learn to be careful or do without. Can't say I ever thought about suing anyone because I used the Tiger Balm Red on a sore spot and then it did the predictable thing when it came into contact with my eyes.
I'm glad you have not thought of suing anyone, however, as a health care practitioner (although I have never been sued) one has to take care to not allow patients to be their own worst enemy. They tend to take it out on you when they do something wrong-even though you tell them not to and document it. Unfortunately, we cannot counter sue them for being stupid.
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:00 AM   #17
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Re: chronic wrist pain

got arthritis? do Yoga or find an extremely soft dojo...plenty can be found

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:56 AM   #18
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
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Re: chronic wrist pain

Quote:
Avi Rosenberg wrote: View Post
Hi all
Although I've been a lurker for quite some time this is my first posting.
In the last few years I have had chronic joint pains in my knees and wrists and other places. I've been diagnosed with osteo-arthritis, but the doctors have not offered me any way of treating it. I've been taking glucosomine, but it doesn't seem to help. I've learned to deal with my knee problem and am trying to strengthen the muscles there with various exercises, but I am particularly concerned with my wrists right now. The pain has become a real impediment in much of my aikido practice. I was wondering if anyone knows of any treatments for the wrists or of any way of strengthening them.
Thanks,
Avi Rosenberg
Hi, im very sorry to hear about your osteo-arthritis, and i dont mean to sound like i think that i am a doctor or anything like that, but i do work at GNC and i try to keep a good general-knowledge of our products, so, i suggest taking a Glucosamine-Chondroitin-MSM blend. Such as GNC's Triflex. It should help alot with your joint problems, and we have a Fast-Acting blend that you can try that has White Willow Bark in it among other natural herbs, that is supposed to ease pain within a week and helps with long-term benifits in as little as 2 weeks.

in aiki,
-morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:25 PM   #19
Janet Rosen
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Re: chronic wrist pain

White willow bark is the original root of aspirin so if a person has allergies or gastric intolerance to aspirin I'd use with caution.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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