Atemi

Regarding the use of atemi in aikido, I happened to come across this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Q-u78iCjA

I have no idea who these guys are, but I find their way of applying atemi quite interesting. I like the smooth way they move between atemi and regular aikido techniques.

Stefan Stenudd wrote: I have no idea who these guys are, but I find their way of applying atemi quite interesting. I like the smooth way they move between atemi and regular aikido techniques.

I agree. Convincing ikkajo application.

Boon.

Stefan Stenudd wrote: I like the smooth way they move between atemi and regular aikido techniques.

I prefer regular aikido techniques where the only thing moving between the technique and the atemi is uke.

Stefan Stenudd wrote: Regarding the use of atemi in aikido, I happened to come across this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Q-u78iCjA .

Thanks for the video find Stefan.
I thought they were a bit awful, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Something had to do with the attacker being slo-mo and freezy and the defender still not knowing what to do with him ...
And there is a most terribly inept shihonage attempt at 0:25.
This seems not a demo nor a training session ... something inbetween and worse than both.
I hope neither of those guys on the vid reads this and becomes offended. Making good video is a HARD task.
Im SURE they can do better, more rehearsal, better editing, better music, a bit of paint on the upstairs beam ...

Doesn't mesh with my experience either.

Michael Douglas wrote: Thanks for the video find Stefan. I thought they were a bit awful, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something had to do with the attacker being slo-mo and freezy and the defender still not knowing what to do with him ... I hope neither of those guys on the vid reads this and becomes offended. Making good video is a HARD task. Im SURE they can do better, more rehearsal, better editing, better music, a bit of paint on the upstairs beam ...

I doubt they'd be offended. House sensei has a great sense of humor. I've only trained with him a few times, but he always had a great sense of humor.
As for the "freezy" and what not, my guess is that it's more for demonstration purposes. I'm not sure about the shiho nage as I don't feel very qualified to say one way or the other, but it shares a resemblance with the way I've practiced it. He seemed to always be entering, even after the arms began to lose connection.

Although the video had it's good points and did have good transition moves, the area I disagree with is the lack of definitive strikes to pressure points. There are a lot of opportunities to integrate strikes to pressure points (as doshu describes atemi, if I recall correctly) without interfering with the flow of technique. Even the ikkyo cut over with the arm can be an ulnar nerve strike on the elbow hand if done correctly, although somewhat leaves out the aiki aspect.

In any event, a lot of the strikes in the video did not seem to be directed at definitive nerve or pressure points-in other words they were just strikes. IMHO. See my BBM article for one example (June 2005).

John Riggs wrote: Although the video had it's good points and did have good transition moves, the area I disagree with is the lack of definitive strikes to pressure points. There are a lot of opportunities to integrate strikes to pressure points (as doshu describes atemi, if I recall correctly) without interfering with the flow of technique. Even the ikkyo cut over with the arm can be an ulnar nerve strike on the elbow hand if done correctly, although somewhat leaves out the aiki aspect. In any event, a lot of the strikes in the video did not seem to be directed at definitive nerve or pressure points-in other words they were just strikes. IMHO. See my BBM article for one example (June 2005).

My thought is that trying to be too pin-point or accurate during a chaotic situation (as in a fight) can be distressingly difficult.

Boon

Stefan:

interesting video.

I like to do a couple of things with iriminage (especially off tsuki):
1. I slightly lead the irimi hand with my other hand by cutting down from the back toward the knee to drop the hip and buckle the knee . (sankakutai /triangular step version of irminage-irimi version).
2. This is followed closely with an iriminage that is designed to strike the pressure point with the thumb / radial side of the irimi arm. This creates a sandwiching type maneuver that buckles the uke's lead leg forward (on their punching arm) and cutting over and down against the nerve at the angle of the jaw (a point my sensei noted on the irimi) hand.

When stepping in after an offline move and excuting the iriminage this is a very powerful move and really drops the uke.. Other versions of irimi can use the brachial plexus just behind the collar bone to control uke. I tend to use the pressure points to manipulate uke in such a fashion that the throw is easy since it allows me to set them up the way I want their body to go.

Also, on ikkyo, I use the hand going to the elbow in such a fashion that the knuckle of the index finger can be used to strike the ulnar nerve. It can be done in a aiki manner with less force but if the person's attack is not caught on the upswing allowing more of an aiki blend before it powers down it can be used as more of a strike. When catching or striking it in this fashion, it can be also used as a leverage pressure point on the nerve to cut the forearm over. Especially, if uke is not caught early enough or locks down on you .

Another one I like to use is a strike to the femoral nerve mid thigh resulting in buckling the nage's knee causing them to lose balance backwards. It can be used in ushiro waza statically, to set up ninan-gake escapes, or it can also be used as a kaitennage kaeshi waza with the uke as they go down turning inside toward the nage and striking the femoral nerve with the free hand knuckle of the index finger buckling the nage's knee. It requires timing by the uke. Femoral nerve strikes collapse the knee and can be done with the hand, finger tips, or knee/foot depending on the situation.

On inside blocking maneuvers, I like to strike the inside of the elbow with the tegatana (ulnar nerve strike). This can be set up with an aiki type block deflecting a face punch for example followed by a 2nd hand atemi to the nerve. This opens uke up for multiple sequential atemis to vital points or moving in with a koshinage or sumi-otoshi type throw.

As my article shows (BBM, 6/05) I also strike pressure points on the forearm off tsuki kotegaeshi (large intestine 11 to drop the shoulder, and then press lung 10 (thenar region -median nerve) to keep the shoulder dropped. An ulnar nerve strike can also be used to assist in rolling the uke over if they are trying to fight it, assisted by pressing Lung 10. An added bonus is you can also use the elbow to simultaneously strike the bone areas between the triceps and biceps on the lateral aspect of the upper arm while tenkaning. What we Americans call frogging someone. Tsuki kotegaeshi can result in 4 atemi/pressure point manipulations in a very fluid manner.

These sound like a lot of strikes but I have worked hard to make them flow with the movement of the technique. This is one criticism of atemi -it disrups the flow of the technique . I disagree.

And the disclaimer, atemi and pressure points don't work on everyone.

Xu Wenfung wrote: My thought is that trying to be too pin-point or accurate during a chaotic situation (as in a fight) can be distressingly difficult. Boon

Boon:
I understand but disagree. If practiced, the strikes flow into normal taisabaki and can be done quickly and precisely enough to elicit an effect. Closely examining the various techniques, you will see a lot of striking opportunities inherent in the technique. To me, much like the position of the kyusho jitsu practitioners with respect to karate, these are lost elements. O'Senseis deshi often commented on seeing lights when he did techniques, which sound like to me he hit various pressure points (most likely on the head). If you look at some of his old pictures in various books, he is always delivering an atemi to a pressure point, or even pressing on them as in one where he has the big toe on a pressure point on the uke's foot. I don't think he accidently stepped on the uke's foot.

I practice these a lot. As such, they have become inherent in my waza and I in fact have to be careful not to hit points too often or too hard as there are issues for my uke's. Unfortunately, while demonstrating and talking at the same time, I sometimes numb an uke's arm. It is controlled enough that there is no permanent damage, but can still be done even when not totally focused.

Xu Wenfung wrote: My thought is that trying to be too pin-point or accurate during a chaotic situation (as in a fight) can be distressingly difficult. Boon

I agree if you do not train the way you would fight then you don't know what will happen and it will make any time someone thinks I'll just do xyz technique is just fooling themselves and others if that's what they are teaching. If you train to hit pressure points by actually hitting pressure points during your mat time then it wont be difficult. Same things goes for any technique and honestly me and the people I train with do work on what most call technique's we call exercises because we do not care what we get in a fight/confrontation we just move and do what we do. As far as atemi we use them and again we dont practice using them in certain technique's we practice using them if we get a chance and anywhere we happen to get them. The reason we train this way is because life is like a box of chocolate's.... you never know what you're gonna get!!! LOL... had to say it.

Brian Barker wrote: If you train to hit pressure points by actually hitting pressure points during your mat time then it wont be difficult.

Due to the long term effects and progressive damage that can result from such methods, this is NOT something I would advocate... period. Shiatsu massage would be a much safer alternative.

Ignatius Teo wrote: Due to the long term effects and progressive damage that can result from such methods, this is NOT something I would advocate... period. Shiatsu massage would be a much safer alternative.

Care must be taken to not strike them with any force when practicing regularly.

Fer sure Doc... fer sure. Whilst all due care should be taken anyway... one can't be entirely certain of a person's reaction or general constitution, especially if these things can have an effect at a far more subtle level.

The biggest risk is if struck or stimulated in the right fashion you can affect the person's blood pressure. If they have heart issues, that can be very dangerous. Dr. Michael Kelly's book The Death Touch explains the science behind the striking of pressure points and how they can affect the nervous system. Anyone messing with this should read the book and visit his website.

Ignatius Teo wrote: Due to the long term effects and progressive damage that can result from such methods, this is NOT something I would advocate... period. Shiatsu massage would be a much safer alternative.

You dont have to strike them with force to learn where they are. Many of them are not lethal matter of fact most of them are not but they can give you those few extra seconds to finish a technique, move to another one or get the heck out of dodge. I think it's funny for someone to keep talking about this or that technique... well you might get one or the other with an unexperienced fighter but get someone that is experienced and you just might get your butt handed to you on a platter. When it comes to defending myself/family I'm sorry about your luck I will do what I need to which includes a permanant finish. You do not have to do this everytime you are on the mat but learning where they are and what they do can do a lot to preserve your life.

Brian Barker wrote: You do not have to do this everytime you are on the mat but learning where they are and what they do can do a lot to preserve your life.

Which is precisely my point... what's wrong with using shiatsu (and anatomy) as a medium to learn where they are and what effect it has on the body first?

Ignatius Teo wrote: Which is precisely my point... what's wrong with using shiatsu (and anatomy) as a medium to learn where they are and what effect it has on the body first?

This was always one of my favorite aspects of training. Getting an elbow shiatsu treatment from time to time while having my limbs stretched around has done wonders for my various injuries.

Ignatius Teo wrote: Which is precisely my point... what's wrong with using shiatsu (and anatomy) as a medium to learn where they are and what effect it has on the body first?

Never said there was anything wrong with it but in the same time you should be able to practice it with control so you don't inadvertantly hurt someone you are training with.

Can you absolutely guarantee the person you are training with has no latent medical condition that you can trigger by "hitting a few points"?

I can lightly tap a few points and make my partner feel nauseous, feel faint, break out in cold sweat, feel like she's about to lose bladder control, and make her pulse race in a choppy, slippery manner. And that's just from a light tap... with control...

There is a whole field of study involved, and it's more than just learning how to hit a few points indiscriminately, even if done lightly and with control, during practice. Can your teacher perform revival and resuscitation if necessary? Can you? If not... why not? Should you be playing around with this... if not?

See Dr John Riggs' post... there are points on the body which are baro-receptors... these affect the BP... ST9 is one since it's directly on the vagus sinus. Do you know which points set up which points? Do you understand the TCM/MWM theory behind how point strikes work? Did you know that you can KO someone, simply from a strike to the arm? Do you know how to revive them?

Again... should you be playing with this stuff if you don't? That's all I'm suggesting... not you personally... you generally.

Ignatius Teo wrote: Can you absolutely guarantee the person you are training with has no latent medical condition that you can trigger by "hitting a few points"? I can lightly tap a few points and make my partner feel nauseous, feel faint, break out in cold sweat, feel like she's about to lose bladder control, and make her pulse race in a choppy, slippery manner. And that's just from a light tap... with control... There is a whole field of study involved, and it's more than just learning how to hit a few points indiscriminately, even if done lightly and with control, during practice. Can your teacher perform revival and resuscitation if necessary? Can you? If not... why not? Should you be playing around with this... if not? See Dr John Riggs' post... there are points on the body which are baro-receptors... these affect the BP... ST9 is one since it's directly on the vagus sinus. Do you know which points set up which points? Do you understand the TCM/MWM theory behind how point strikes work? Did you know that you can KO someone, simply from a strike to the arm? Do you know how to revive them? Again... should you be playing with this stuff if you don't? That's all I'm suggesting... not you personally... you generally.

I am not going to get into a detailed debate over what pressure points can and can't do but to answer your questions/comments that I made bold.... yes we can. Do we recommend doing this if the people do not know how to revive someone if needed... absolutely not but I also know that as far as training like we do that you dont have to strike the points but can go into an attack full force and be able to stop before making contact in a serious manner. We do it all the time and when we talk about control it is usually on a different level then what most people would consider control.

I am not debating your comments or views and I actually agree but I also believe that you can train hard at full speed/intent without hurting someone because we do it all the time. There are many times that we dont go full tilt but we know that we can without any trouble from those around us because we work very much into everyone's abilities. If they are not skilled enough to go at full speed we slow things down to make sure that the safety margin is still there. Can accidents happen... of course but we are better covered for those things with the multitude of the professional/work related training that many of our students have.

strike back at the uke when you see an opening but don't let the movement stop. no one will allow you do apply a technique just like that. atemi is important. that's all i can say. My instructors always tell us to strike back when doing certain techniques.

Nicholas Hu wrote: strike back at the uke when you see an opening but don't let the movement stop. no one will allow you do apply a technique just like that. atemi is important. that's all i can say. My instructors always tell us to strike back when doing certain techniques.

It is easy to say strike back, but without proper striking training, it is not so easy.

I remember once my fist connected with my uke's hip bone, I sprained my wrist. Of course, my uke was writhing in pain afterward. I was suppose to do mune tsuki and he was too lazy, did not move fast enough. It is not so easy to strike without proper training. Just some caveat.

Boon

i agree with you xu wenfung. that's why i took up tang soo do. hahaha...

Xu Wenfung wrote: I remember once my fist connected with my uke's hip bone, I sprained my wrist. Of course, my uke was writhing in pain afterward. I was suppose to do mune tsuki and he was too lazy, did not move fast enough. Boon

Boon: I'm trying to visualize what you said, but I'm confused: Isn't mune tsuki a strike to the chest? How did you manage to hit his hip? No disrespect meant, just want to know the details.

Also (and this is addressed to everyone): any suggestions for someone who can't make a proper fist?

I'm not talking about not knowing how to properly clench a fist but physically unable to fully clench because her tendons (or ligaments, I'm not really sure about the right word) on the back of her hand are too stiff. I keep telling her "no, you can't punch with that; you'll only hurt yourself" - I don't think she's ever hit a heavy bag in her life.