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Old 09-25-2008, 10:42 AM   #1
langelaar
Dojo: Winnipeg Aikikai
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Uke spinning out of shihonage

Good morning,

Just wanted to regurgitate something that's probably discussed quite often. I came across this link from a few years ago :

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2718

Now that I am back again after 6 months of inactivity, we did some shihonage last night. The omote was not bad, but ura needed work.

Then this morning one of my helpful uke friends agreed to help me find my correct 'form'. So what does she do ? She spins out on me and stands right behind me (great place for her, lousy for me), smiling like crazy, and I'm just standing there feeling 'dumb'

That got me thinking. So later this morning, my caretaker (janitor) friend at work comes in, and is curious about my class last night, to the point where we try to 'reproduce' the failed ura version of shihonage *after* I had read the 2002 posting above.

What a difference. He was fascinated, and I'm happy now

Maiko Langelaar
Winnipeg Aikikai
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:47 PM   #2
Nick P.
 
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Was there one particular post in the link you supplied that helped/you tried to apply?

Thanks.

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Old 09-25-2008, 02:41 PM   #3
langelaar
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

1) stay low

being that I'm 6 foot 3, that means really low. I almost went to
seiza a few times (and of course my knee made a funny sound,
but that's another story).

2) crank that arm enough so the other arm stays away from you

i interpreted that as making sure uke's free arm is not able to
take a swing at me, they should be near on their toes, that
their hips are being kept *busy*, uke is twisted outward.

3) hands no higher than the forehead was very useful.

Of course, my instructors have said this all along - I just forgot

I've only practiced aikido for under 2 years, not even a 5th kyu yet,
but the posts were extremely helpful in getting me back on track.

Maiko
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:13 PM   #4
Mark Uttech
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Onegaishimasu. Sometimes if you put your elbow in uke's back while doing shihonage, the elbow works as a sort of brace to stop the turning.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:06 PM   #5
eyrie
 
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

The basic problem is that Maiko is not locking the shoulder.... if you don't "commutatively lock" the wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine, hip and foot, uke will be able to twirl out of the technique.

Basically, the "technique" needs more work. Although, being 6'3" is definitely part of the problem, especially if uke is shorter - shihonage is not designed to be performed on a shorter uke.

Ignatius
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:52 AM   #6
ChrisHein
 
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

If they spin our of your shihonage, imediately do the technique again, they will likely try and get out the same way. If they do that, just stop turning, and let them do the work for you.

Uke is turning the same way as you do in order to "turn out" of shihonage. If you keep turning while they are it makes a double turn, thus no technique. However if you stop and they turn, it's the same as them not turning (a single turn), and you get a shihonage.

If you want to make them pay a little more for their bad uke-ing, back out of your shihonage and stand tall as they turn, it will put lots of pressure on their arm; often making them a better uke.

The real answer is to listen to your uke, and adjust accordingly.

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Old 09-27-2008, 02:47 AM   #7
Abasan
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

And after you've done enough cranking you might pause a bit and think how in the world is a 5ft petite lady going to crank your 6ft arm?

Hmm mayhaps that's what you should be looking for in your aikido, awase, kuzushi and aiki... at least that's what I think anyway for what its worth.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:54 AM   #8
ChiefDaddy
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Here is something to try next time somebody spins out of your shionage. Let them spin; it puts them in a perfect position to do yonkyo.
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Old 09-27-2008, 06:53 PM   #9
mickeygelum
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

If you were applying shihonage correctly, the person would not be able to spin out of it.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 09-27-2008, 08:05 PM   #10
Mark Uttech
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Red face Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
If you were applying shihonage correctly, the person would not be able to spin out of it.

Train well,

Mickey
Onegaishimasu. Wow. A true believer in the technique of shihonage. It reminds me of something Rinjiro Shirata said after doing aikido for 50 years: "I think I am finally starting to get the hang of shihonage."

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:20 PM   #11
Shane Marcum
 
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Shihonage & Spinning Out

Hi everyone. We have a couple of uncooperative Uke in our class that consistently try to defeat any technique that you apply. One that I have noticed is shihonage. Has anyone else ever had trouble with Uke spinning out of shihonage? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:51 PM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Shihonage & Spinning Out

Scroll down to the bottom of this page...

Look for the words

Quote:
uke spinning out of shihonage langelaar General 9 09-27-2008 10:05 PM
Shihonage roll-out John Matsushima Techniques 38 12-06-2007 01:54 PM
Shihonage ikkitosennomusha General 14 03-14-2004 05:43 PM
Turning Out of Shihonage Suru General 39 10-15-2002 02:21 PM
Click on them...
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:04 AM   #13
ilia rudnitskiy
 
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Re: Shihonage & Spinning Out

If the uke does not follow the technique, neither partner is learning anything... and injuries can occur. Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out. Shihonage, like any other aikido technique, is simply a method of training to realize the principles of aikido, if uke cannot follow, explain why they should... and if they still don't cooperate, ask them to leave the class.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:23 AM   #14
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Shihonage & Spinning Out

Quote:
Ilia Rudnitskiy wrote: View Post
Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out.
This is a very good method. I would also add to this, that you should then roll the uke's hand/arm off of the top of your head and try to place their hand at the bottom of their spine. You must be careful, because this can be dangerous. But is done properly, uke will not be able to spin out, as this will be a very tight application of Shihonage.

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Old 10-02-2008, 01:33 AM   #15
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Shihonage & Spinning Out

Quote:
Ilia Rudnitskiy wrote: View Post
If the uke does not follow the technique, neither partner is learning anything... and injuries can occur. Also, nage can try extending uke more, which will cause them to lose balance, and thus, they will be unable to spin out. Shihonage, like any other aikido technique, is simply a method of training to realize the principles of aikido, if uke cannot follow, explain why they should... and if they still don't cooperate, ask them to leave the class.
I think extending and unbalancing uke (kuzushi) is needed in every technique. So it is in shiho nage.

But: Is following nage a concept of your aikido also on an advanced level? Or are you talking about beginners only?

Carsten
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:48 AM   #16
Mato-san
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

What variation are you referring too? I can't even begin to picture anyone spinning out of shihonage. I can picture the point where you have a neutral position and the shihonage can be reversed with a counter shihonage ( if the momentum is weak and the flow/attack/execution has jerky pauses etc..) ..but I can't see the spin out factor..maybe I am blind or just stupid.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-02-2008, 07:40 AM   #17
SmilingNage
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

This is a common problem with shihonage. Often it occurs during static practice, where uke's balance hasn't been taken.

* Make sure on the "draw" that uke's arm is fully extended and their weight is on the lead foot.

* Don't raise uke's arm over your head, use your knees to go under the arm. Keep uke's wrist rested on your forehead as you begin to move under the arm.

* When passing under the arm, make sure uke's arm, in particular uke's elbow, always remains in contact with your body. You can easily switch to a arm bar if something should go awry during shihonage

* Should uke turn out, follow up with another shihonage but drop the level of the technique lower. It seems beginners have the knack to do that turn out. After completing my pivot, I would change elevations and drop to one knee up like in hanmi handachi and apply shihonage "cut" from there.

For what it is worth, have your instructor evaluate your shihonage, he/she can help better than anyone online can. While the online community can give shall we say inspiration, run the "inspiration" through your instructor for proper guidance and execution of technique.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:19 AM   #18
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

I found in working with kids that when I felt them begin to spin out, if I stepped back rather than forward, as we usually do, the technique presented itself. This of course doesn't address the question of how to keep them from trying....

David Henderson
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:53 PM   #19
Trish Greene
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

When I am working with an uke that I don't work with that often and he tries to spin out during Shihonage, I immediately counter with a kotegashe. Once they are over their surprise I lightly mention that we should really just work on the technique that Sensei asked us too...

But, since I am short, to stop that from happening I usually get in close which stops them from trying to spin.

"Aikido is nothing but an expression of the spirit of Love for all living things."

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Old 10-02-2008, 03:57 PM   #20
ilia rudnitskiy
 
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Re: Shihonage & Spinning Out

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I think extending and unbalancing uke (kuzushi) is needed in every technique. So it is in shiho nage.

But: Is following nage a concept of your aikido also on an advanced level? Or are you talking about beginners only?

Carsten
I am talking about all levels.. at our dojo, we always practice following... occasionally we do tight grips and practice with resistance, but not to the point where you just stand in one spot (because then you're not doing anything either, then what's the point of nage doing a technique). The reason we practice resistance, and usually with more advanced students, is to teach nage to find a weakness and exploit it. The reason we practice following is so that uke can detect weaknesses in nage's technique and, if it were a real-life situation, perform a counter. The more you follow, the more balanced you are, and the more chances you have to get ahead of nage.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:53 AM   #21
Mato-san
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

my vision is a yokomenuchi strike and as Nage blending with Ukes strike, then softly finding Ukes shoulder and sliding up it toward the wrist (still keeping the momentum and spiral movement offered to you in the strike) and as Nage spin INTO it yourself with a nice center and apply the waza... can't see where Uke can spin out.

I know some styles offer a block and jerk version but I can't comment on that..not real familiar with it.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:12 AM   #22
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
This of course doesn't address the question of how to keep them from trying....

David Henderson
What about light flogging about the head and neck?

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:19 AM   #23
Mato-san
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
What about light flogging about the head and neck?
Sure get in seiza and smash the little dudes... and/or learn from them.
Little f****rs present some valid events.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:29 AM   #24
deathlinenetworks
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

shihonage. this is how my instructor do it.

keep hands extended all the way. when you turn (omote or ura), uke's hands can't be over his/her shoulder level. too high, he/she spins off or he/she can pull you back. if uke is shorter, lower yourself more even if it means going down on your knees.

works wonders for me.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:43 PM   #25
dalen7
 
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Re: uke spinning out of shihonage

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. Sometimes if you put your elbow in uke's back while doing shihonage, the elbow works as a sort of brace to stop the turning.

In gassho,

Mark
If I understand you correctly, then I agree. If you pull the elbow away from the body you can cause a world of pain...and you have to be careful, but it gives some beautiful control over uke where you can play with them and set them down right in front of you.

In the end, all the moves are hit and miss...from time to time what seems to work doesnt...just cyclical I guess.

I had a time of day with shomenuchi sankyo today for only god knows what reason. It happens I suppose.

Enjoy.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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