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Old 03-27-2005, 06:18 AM   #26
Sonja2012
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
As a rule men don't get them in our association until dan grade and women can get them at 5th kyu and above for dedication.
Sorry, this is a language question: what does that mean exactly - for dedication ?
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Old 03-27-2005, 08:03 AM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: who can wear hakama

I think there is a difference between prewar and postwar attitudes.

Whereas prewar, and immediately postwar for the deshi (e.g. Saotome-shi), hakama was a garment covering underwear and so was worn as a matter of course, after the war in the Aikikai it became a mark of rank and was tied to the gaining of shodan rank.

In the dojos I look after in Europe, some instructors allow 1st kyuu students to wear the hakama. However, when I go to Europe to give training courses and deliver shodan diplomas, these students have to train in white belts and with no hakama and, immediately after receiving their dan diplomas, they have to remove their white belts and put on their hakamas in front of everybody. Then we continue training.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-27-2005, 08:47 AM   #28
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Sonja McGough wrote:
Sorry, this is a language question: what does that mean exactly - for dedication ?
Comitment to training.
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Old 03-27-2005, 12:16 PM   #29
Kevin Kelly
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
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Re: who can wear hakama

In our dojo, 3rd kyu and up wear hakama, men and women. It kind of makes it easier to tell who is Sempai and Kohai. If we have a foreign Sensei such as Hitohiro Saito Sensei coming for a seminar, the student are told only dan grades are to wear them, so he will know who is at least shodan. And of course, I am assuming if someone from our dojo who is third kyu went visiting another dojo, they would not wear their hakama.
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Old 03-28-2005, 08:32 AM   #30
Terry Donaghe
Dojo: Aikido of Scottsdale
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Re: who can wear hakama

My wife, recently ranked 5th kyu, was told last week that she needed to start wearing a hakama. I believe that our sensei wants all ranked women to wear hakamas. Guys in my USAF dojo generally don't wear hakamas till they attain shodan rank. So, in 10 or 15 (20?) years when I finally get to wear my fancy pants my wife will be an old pro at it and I'll be stumbling about like the noob I am now.
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:00 AM   #31
Ki No Nagare
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Re: who can wear hakama

In my dojo we think that everyone may wear a(n) hakama, after the war a lot of new students couldn't afford a(n) hakama because the economy was bad in Japan. So Ueshiba lost a lot of new students, so he said that people could start without the hakama but had to buy one as soon as possible.
As soon as the western civilisation saw that new people didn't wear hakama's and the progressed ones did, they thought that only the people above the 2th kyu could wear one, but that is nonsense.
I have bought a hakama this year, because it is tradition to wear one, and it is better for my Shisei. And I know I won't be quitting Aikido......for like....the rest of my life.

Long story short: every Aikidoka may wear a hakama....
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Old 03-29-2005, 11:50 AM   #32
giriasis
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Terry Donaghe wrote:
My wife, recently ranked 5th kyu, was told last week that she needed to start wearing a hakama. I believe that our sensei wants all ranked women to wear hakamas. Guys in my USAF dojo generally don't wear hakamas till they attain shodan rank. So, in 10 or 15 (20?) years when I finally get to wear my fancy pants my wife will be an old pro at it and I'll be stumbling about like the noob I am now.

My dojo does pretty much the same thing except we don't generally require a woman to wear hakama once she reaches 5th kyu. So, it's left as an option for us ladies. Of the kyu ranked women in our dojo we're about half and half hakama and non-hakama wearers. Although, I have noticed a trend among the women in our dojo to not wear one until she feels comfortable with her ukemi.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:31 PM   #33
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
So, it's left as an option for us ladies.
Hi,

I think that the historical reason for this is clearly sexist. It was a topic in the letters section of ATM years back. I am interested in hearing what Anne and/or others feel about it.

Charles
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Old 03-29-2005, 07:51 PM   #34
Hardware
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

In our dojo, women are permitted to wear the hakama from the start as a modesty issue. None of the kyu ranked males wear it. Only the one shodan and Sensei (sandan) wear it.

Sensei told me I could start wearing the hakama if I wanted, but I declined. I feel I want to earn the privilege (I've been a 3rd kyu since Sunday).
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:56 PM   #35
giriasis
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi,

I think that the historical reason for this is clearly sexist. It was a topic in the letters section of ATM years back. I am interested in hearing what Anne and/or others feel about it.

Charles
Whether the hakama issue becomes an issue of gender depend on how it is handled in the dojo. A dojo can be sexist towards women whether they wear a hakama or not.

I believe sexist against the men because they have to wait till shodan to wear it, but at least where I train I haven't heard the guys complain that they don't get to wear it until blackbelt. The way the hakama is handled where is train is : Sensei, "you past your 5th kyu" you want to order a hakama?" Then, it's left up to the female student whether she wants to get one or not. I don't consider the wearing of hakama as a status symbol. It's just a hakama, a big black or blue piece of cloth. If anything is a "status symbol" it is the black belt and we know how most people feel about that.

As to the "modesty" reason, I really don't know what modesty they are wanting me to protect, but I have found a "convenience" factor for about three days during each month when the flow from my period is so heavy that I risk spotting and subsequent speading of such a spot caused from sweat. Imagine changing at the end of class to notice that your gi pants are very pink, and no one bothered to tell you anything. Before wearing hakama, I did skip class because of this, now, I feel I can train even on the first day, which is the heaviest day of my menstrual cycle.

Now, that I wear one if I go without it I feel naked without it.

All in all, there are more issues I worry about on the mat than wearing a hakama. The only thing I need to do is show up about 5 minutes earlier to get the darn thing tied on.

Last edited by giriasis : 03-30-2005 at 12:59 PM.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 03-30-2005, 03:08 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: who can wear hakama

Too much information....

Ron (just kidding)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:38 PM   #37
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
Before wearing hakama, I did skip class because of this, now, I feel I can train even on the first day, which is the heaviest day of my menstrual cycle.
I switched from tampax to ob and haven't had any problems since...if I want to feel really on the safe side I wear a pad, too. The good ones nowadays stay in place surprisingly well. Or maybe I don't train hard enough....

kvaak
Pauliina
just trying to see if we can get Ron to run away...
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:24 PM   #38
Hardware
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
...As to the "modesty" reason, I really don't know what modesty they are wanting me to protect...
Well, I understand (and I may be wrong) this falls back on Japanese culture and tradition.

The dogi (top, pants and obi) used to comprise underwear for the Japanese. Indeed, most of the Japanese I train with wear nothing beneath the dogi - it is their underwear. Being western, I wear boxer briefs and I used to wear a T-shirt. As the T-shirt was visible, I was asked to stop wearing it.

So, from a cultural standpoint, training in the dogi for the Japanese, is the same as a westerner training in an undershirt and briefs (or boxers, etc).

Because of this, women were traditionally allowed or required (depending on the association) to wear hakama - to cover their underwear. Hence the reference to it being an issue of modesty.
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Old 03-31-2005, 05:51 AM   #39
bogglefreak20
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Re: who can wear hakama

In our dojo we wear them from the 3rd kyu up.

Beatus Qui Venit In Nomine Domini!
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:30 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Pauliina
just trying to see if we can get Ron to run away...
Ron: "nanananananananan....I'm not listening..... "

What is it that makes some of us guys so squeemish anyways....

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:36 AM   #41
giriasis
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
I switched from tampax to ob and haven't had any problems since...if I want to feel really on the safe side I wear a pad, too. The good ones nowadays stay in place surprisingly well. Or maybe I don't train hard enough....

kvaak
Pauliina
just trying to see if we can get Ron to run away...
For the most part ob works really well for me. It makes sense, it was made by women gynocologists. But on my first day even with that I still risk some leakage.

I bet we could get Ron to run away if we asked him to go buy us some "feminine supplies."

As far as it being a traditional Japanese thing, I'm not so sure about that. If you have the DVD from Sugano Sensei (Heavan and Earth) there's an old O'Sensei clip in it and there is a woman demonstrating aikido but she's wearing a kimono -- not a gi and hakama like the men were. (I don't recall if the men were in gi only). I wouldn't want to go THAT traditional.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:49 AM   #42
batemanb
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ron: "nanananananananan....I'm not listening..... "

What is it that makes some of us guys so squeemish anyways....

Sorry Ron, I can't hear you, I've got my fingers in my ears

rgds

Bryan (typing with his nose)

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 04-03-2005, 03:45 PM   #43
the slayer
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Re: who can wear hakama

hi, sorry haven't been on for a while but back now also in our dojo the women get to where them after they pass their first grading which in our dojo is 6th kyu for modesty reasons so are ranking goes 6-1kyu then dan all where white belt until dan grade juniors get colured belts
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:43 AM   #44
jimbaker
Dojo: Aikido of Norfolk/ Aikido Society of Memphis
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Re: who can wear hakama

I think the "modesty" issue had more to do with upended women showing too much calf.

The old official judo uniform for women had "pegged" pants bottoms to prevent the unseemly display of the nethermost leg region. See >http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_svinth_0201.htm< pic of Ayako Akutagawa, towards the bottom of the page. Also notice the white stripe on her black belt which denoted her rank in Joshi Judo.

I'm guessing that the exposed calf of a man is less disturbing to women.

Fukuda Sensei's book, "Born for the Mat" is a fascinating look at woman's Judo. She's still alive and is now a Kodakan Judo 9th Dan. The old pictures have some great beehive hairdos.

JIM

Jim Baker
Aikido of Norfolk
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:44 PM   #45
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, "The Principles Of Aikido"

"When I was uchi deshi to O Sensei, everyone was required to wear a hakama for practice, beginning with the first time they stepped on the mat. There were no restrictions on the type of hakama you could wear then, so the dojo was a very colorful place. One saw hakama of all sorts, all colors and all qualities, from kendo hakama, to the striped hakama used in Japanese dance, to the costly silk hakama called sendai-hira. I imagine that some beginning student caught the devil for borrowing his grandfather's expensive hakama, meant to be worn only for special occasions and ceremonies, and wearing out its knees in suwariwaza practice.

I vividly remember the day that I forgot my hakama. I was preparing to step on the mat for practice, wearing only my dogi, when O Sensei stopped me. "Where is your hakama?" he demanded sternly. "What makes you think you can receive your teacher's instruction wearing nothing but your underwear? Have you no sense of propriety? You are obviously lacking the attitude and the etiquette necessary in one who pursues budo training. Go sit on the side and watch class!"

This was only the first of many scoldings I was to receive from O Sensei. However, my ignorance on this occasion prompted O Sensei to lecture his uchi deshi after class on the meaning of the hakama. He told us that the hakama was traditional garb for kobudo students and asked if any of us knew the reason for the seven pleats in the hakama.

"They symbolize the seven virtues of budo," O Sensei said. "These are jin (benevolence), gi (honor or justice), rei (courtesy and etiquette), chi (wisdom, intelligence), shin (sincerity), chu (loyalty), and koh (piety). We find these qualities in the distinguished samurai of the past. The hakama prompts us to reflect on the nature of true bushido. Wearing it symbolizes traditions that have been passed down to us from generation to generation. Aikido is born of the bushido spirit of Japan, and in our practice we must strive to polish the seven traditional virtues."
Currently, most Aikido dojo do not follow O Sensei's strict policy about wearing the hakama. Its meaning has degenerated from a symbol of traditional virtue to that of a status symbol for yudansha. I have traveled to many dojo in many nations. In many of the places where only the yudansha wear hakama, the yudansha have lost their humility. They think of the hakama as a prize for display, as the visible symbol of their superiority. This type of attitude makes the ceremony of bowing to O Sensei, with which we begin and end each class, a mockery of his memory and his art.
Worse still, in some dojo, women of kyu rank (and only the women) are required to wear hakama, supposedly to preserve their modesty. To me this is insulting and discriminatory to women Aikidoka. It is also insulting to male Aikidoka, for it assumes a low-mindedness on their part that has no place on the Aikido mat.
To see the hakama put to such petty use saddens me. It may seem a trivial issue to some people, but I remember very well the great importance that O Sensei placed on wearing hakama. I cannot dismiss the significance of this garment, and no one, I think, can dispute the great value of the virtues it symbolizes. In my dojo and its associated schools I encourage all students to wear hakama regardless of their rank or grade. (I do not require it before they have achieved their first grading, since beginners in the United States do not generally have Japanese grandfathers whose hakama they can borrow.) I feel that wearing the hakama and knowing its meaning, helps students to be aware of the spirit of O Sensei and keep alive his vision.

If we can allow the importance of the hakama to fade, perhaps we will begin to allow things fundamental to the spirit of Aikido to slip into oblivion as well. If, on the other hand, we are faithful to O Sensei's wishes regarding our practice dress, our spirits may be more faithful to the dream to which he dedicated his life."

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-27-2008 at 12:47 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:35 PM   #46
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: who can wear hakama

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, "The Principles Of Aikido"

"When I was uchi deshi to O Sensei, everyone was required to wear a hakama for practice, beginning with the first time they stepped on the mat. There were no restrictions on the type of hakama you could wear then, so the dojo was a very colorful place. One saw hakama of all sorts, all colors and all qualities, from kendo hakama, to the striped hakama used in Japanese dance, to the costly silk hakama called sendai-hira. I imagine that some beginning student caught the devil for borrowing his grandfather's expensive hakama, meant to be worn only for special occasions and ceremonies, and wearing out its knees in suwariwaza practice.

I vividly remember the day that I forgot my hakama. I was preparing to step on the mat for practice, wearing only my dogi, when O Sensei stopped me. "Where is your hakama?" he demanded sternly. "What makes you think you can receive your teacher's instruction wearing nothing but your underwear? Have you no sense of propriety? You are obviously lacking the attitude and the etiquette necessary in one who pursues budo training. Go sit on the side and watch class!"

This was only the first of many scoldings I was to receive from O Sensei. However, my ignorance on this occasion prompted O Sensei to lecture his uchi deshi after class on the meaning of the hakama. He told us that the hakama was traditional garb for kobudo students and asked if any of us knew the reason for the seven pleats in the hakama.

"They symbolize the seven virtues of budo," O Sensei said. "These are jin (benevolence), gi (honor or justice), rei (courtesy and etiquette), chi (wisdom, intelligence), shin (sincerity), chu (loyalty), and koh (piety). We find these qualities in the distinguished samurai of the past. The hakama prompts us to reflect on the nature of true bushido. Wearing it symbolizes traditions that have been passed down to us from generation to generation. Aikido is born of the bushido spirit of Japan, and in our practice we must strive to polish the seven traditional virtues."
Currently, most Aikido dojo do not follow O Sensei's strict policy about wearing the hakama. Its meaning has degenerated from a symbol of traditional virtue to that of a status symbol for yudansha. I have traveled to many dojo in many nations. In many of the places where only the yudansha wear hakama, the yudansha have lost their humility. They think of the hakama as a prize for display, as the visible symbol of their superiority. This type of attitude makes the ceremony of bowing to O Sensei, with which we begin and end each class, a mockery of his memory and his art.
Worse still, in some dojo, women of kyu rank (and only the women) are required to wear hakama, supposedly to preserve their modesty. To me this is insulting and discriminatory to women Aikidoka. It is also insulting to male Aikidoka, for it assumes a low-mindedness on their part that has no place on the Aikido mat.
To see the hakama put to such petty use saddens me. It may seem a trivial issue to some people, but I remember very well the great importance that O Sensei placed on wearing hakama. I cannot dismiss the significance of this garment, and no one, I think, can dispute the great value of the virtues it symbolizes. In my dojo and its associated schools I encourage all students to wear hakama regardless of their rank or grade. (I do not require it before they have achieved their first grading, since beginners in the United States do not generally have Japanese grandfathers whose hakama they can borrow.) I feel that wearing the hakama and knowing its meaning, helps students to be aware of the spirit of O Sensei and keep alive his vision.

If we can allow the importance of the hakama to fade, perhaps we will begin to allow things fundamental to the spirit of Aikido to slip into oblivion as well. If, on the other hand, we are faithful to O Sensei's wishes regarding our practice dress, our spirits may be more faithful to the dream to which he dedicated his life."
Hakama in our association can be awarded to female kyu grades for dedication after four months of practice.
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Old 10-05-2008, 05:09 PM   #47
ilia rudnitskiy
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

In our dojo, only the yudansha wear a hakama... I'm not sure about the women, but for as long as I have been a member of our dojo (7 years) I haven't seen any women wear a hakama unless they are shodan or above... The only exception to this is that a yonkyu and sankyu at our dojo teach the children's class, and they're allowed to wear a hakama.

I know that traditionally everyone wore a hakama, but frankly I don't see a problem of wearing it only after you get your shodan... It gives the students something to strive for, and I know that even though I feel an accomplishment after every class anyways, I look forward to wearing a hakama one day (i'm ikkyu at the moment).

Also, it helps beginners tell apart the seniors from the juniors, and usually the yudansha are more experienced than the mudansha, so if the beginners have a question to ask, they can ask the seniors... and although you should practice with people of all abilities, usually it's better if a beginner practices a technique they've never done before with a yudansha first so they understand the correct movement. (i know that was a run on sentence)
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:37 PM   #48
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
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Re: who can wear hakama

In our dojo everyone is allowed, and encouraged, to wear a hakama after passing their first rank test.

Mike

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for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 10-23-2008, 10:46 PM   #49
Voitokas
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

I started in a federation dojo where only yudansha and a few very committed second- and first-kyu students wore hakama. In my dojo now, everyone can wear hakama from their first promotion. I do like the latter way more. I feel like I move better in a hakama and that it has corrected some of my bad habits; I wish I had started wearing one earlier!
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:51 PM   #50
dalen7
 
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Re: who can wear hakama

In the end, it doesnt matter...what matters is what it means to you at the time I suppose.

I would vote Hakama for Dan grade only, but I also like colored belts.
Being that I like milestones and knowing what is to be achieved at each level, this gives me some kind of a guide line to know what to expect from each person I train with. (Just me though, I realize some people are the complete opposite in regards to this line of thought, which is totally cool.)

peace

dAlen

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Hakama or no hakama. nmarques General 40 06-13-2002 06:57 PM


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