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Old 09-01-2008, 05:25 PM   #301
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

That does not appear to be him: blond and 1942 birth date.
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:42 PM   #302
Marc Kupper
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
That does not appear to be him: blond and 1942 birth date.
I remembered the original news article had Clint George's age. You are correct. The former prisoner's DOB is reported as 10-21-1942 while the Clint George this thread is about was born in 1958 meaning it's quite unlikely to be the same person. Hair color and description seems less reliable as a way of matching, or not matching someone.

Last edited by Marc Kupper : 09-01-2008 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Correct DOB based on second news article
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:42 PM   #303
giriasis
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Kupper wrote: View Post
Some courts have on-line calendars and so you may want to look into if the Helena area courts have such a thing. For example http://www.mtd.uscourts.gov/calendar.htm but Clint George is not listed (that calendar does not seem to support scanning the past/future). That may not be the right court or George's case is not in the time-window that's visible.
It's not the right court. That's the link for the U.S. District Federal Court. Clint George's case would not be listed there because he did not commit a federal crime. The appropriate State Court would be the Clerk for the Lewisi and Clark County. Go to Montana Courts Then scroll down and click on FAQ to see what is and is not public record.

Currently, they do not have their court docket available on line, but you can contact the clerk at:Lewis and Clark County (Dist. 1) Clerk

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:32 AM   #304
Jared Hunter
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

An update on this case:
Clint George entered a plea of guilty to his charges on sept 18th. His sentencing date will be Oct 23rd.
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Old 09-25-2008, 06:47 PM   #305
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I looked for the article in the paper referred to above but could not find it. What is the source?
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:31 PM   #306
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Idle chatter. Get back to practice!

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Old 09-26-2008, 07:30 AM   #307
Jared Hunter
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I got my information by calling the county attorneys office and clerk of the court. Was also told federal charges are possible since internet was used for communication between the two. Seems its like using the US mail.....a federal offense.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:36 AM   #308
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Idle chatter. Get back to practice!
No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. And the world of Aikido (like many communities when it comes to this sort of behavior) has a sad history of ignoring and turning away from unpleasantness in its own midst.

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Old 09-26-2008, 08:49 AM   #309
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. And the world of Aikido (like many communities when it comes to this sort of behavior) has a sad history of ignoring and turning away from unpleasantness in its own midst.
I agree. To see someone of such obvious talents fall is a concern to us all, especially with children's programs often being the heart of many dojos.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:11 AM   #310
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
No. It is important information that should concern all who teach or work with children.
Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
I agree. To see someone of such obvious talents fall is a concern to us all, especially with children's programs often being the heart of many dojos.
Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?

You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.

As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.

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Old 09-26-2008, 10:14 AM   #311
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.
Yes, thus the need for this kind of discussion. Stuff like this has been swept under too many rugs.

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Old 09-26-2008, 10:42 AM   #312
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?

You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.
Interesting that this should become personal. The point of these conversations (in my mind, anyway), is to be aware of these situations, to structure programs correctly to avoid these situations (regardless of WHO is teaching), and to raise general awareness of these types of issues. Both in our teaching community, and amoung our patrons.

There really is no need for us to get personal, suggesting that individual posters need such reminders. Or what is or isn't sufficient for them...

Quote:
As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.
I'm sure people will always do that, whether in aikido, or the political sphere, or the business world. Since we are human, it doesn't surprise me. But at least through being open, speaking about it publicly, and being vigilent, we can address it when it happens, or even before it happens.

Awareness is a good thing, in my mind. As is open dialogue.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #313
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
There really is no need for us to get personal, suggesting that individual posters need such reminders. Or what is or isn't sufficient for them...
Individual posters insist the community needs such reminders, yet none of Clint George, the victim, any of their family members, or any of their local community or the Aikido community in general is abstract or impersonal.

I agree that the matters you raised---that this is a possible dojo problem and that there are preventative steps that can be taken to maintain awareness and to reduce the risk of such problems arising---are worthy of discussion and that they can be discussed dispassionately and impersonally...

... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?

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Old 09-26-2008, 11:38 AM   #314
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Ridiculous.

Don't you both already know not to form inappropriate relationships with minors? Do you need the detailed disposition of this particular man's case to convince you?.
You have your periodic and unfortunate reminder not to do bad things. That should be sufficient to keep you sober.

As a secondary matter, do we still confuse and entangle a man's talents with his flaws? Who put this man on a pedestal in the first place? Idols don't fall; the people who worship them do.
Huh? I'm not sure what your issue are with the simple reporting discussion that was occurring. People apparently do need reminders and sometimes even get thrust into situations where nothing occurred. Teaching minors is a tricky business frought with issues.

Also, the discussions previously were fruitful and enlightening. While it is sad to see what happened to Mr. George, this is not the first time such issues have reared their ugly heads. There is a concurrent issue with similar implications with a Chicago aikido organization where the young head of the organization was ostensibly having relations with an underage student.

Last edited by aikidoc : 09-26-2008 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:50 AM   #315
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Individual posters insist the community needs such reminders, yet none of Clint George, the victim, any of their family members, or any of their local community or the Aikido community in general is abstract or impersonal.
The victim is not named, Clint George did the crime, so he's up for public review, the local community can be helped by this discussion, as can the Aikido community. Makes it worth while in my opinion.

Quote:
I agree that the matters you raised---that this is a possible dojo problem and that there are preventative steps that can be taken to maintain awareness and to reduce the risk of such problems arising---are worthy of discussion and that they can be discussed dispassionately and impersonally...

... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?
Hey, you create the thread, maybe I'll post. But this thread exists by the Grace Of Jun, so I'll post to it as I see fit. With or without gratuitous personal commentary...
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:26 PM   #316
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Personal/Abstract

Fine lines. Abstract commentary is well and good. Here's the problem. Psychiatrists, psychologists, teachers, etc. all get explicit training on what constitutes a boundary trespass, and what is abusive behavior. Yet such happens with astounding frequency. Which leads to the question of why? Why is training and information not enough?
Particularly if we are talking about children, it is almost always the case that the perpetrator gravitated to the profession because of the opportunity it provides. Child abusers become scout leaders, church youth group leaders, and most obscenely, work with vulnerable homeless or abused children. (We need, therefore, to learn to recognize the behaviors of predators, how they hide and how they manipulate).
When we are talking about adults, the same can apply. Some predators favor vulnerable men and women as their victims. On other occasions, an apparently psychologically intact and balanced individual is somehow infatuated, intoxicated by the adulation offered by the client/student, etc., and out of an inadequate narcissism, is quite willing to believe it. (Bring this to aikido - in microcosm, without the sexual predation, this is a similar mechanism to the sensei who has a bunch of dive-bunny ukes, who flip-flop at a gesture, and the teacher honestly believes that he or she is powerful. Not sorry if that offended anyone either - it is the same mechanism. Narcissism feeds on inadequacy, not the light of truth). - (We need to learn, again, about predators, but now we also need to learn how people manage to use their own desires as "proof" that this situation is different - "it's not abuse here, because my feelings are special.)"
So let us come to the most difficult. Abuse of a teenager - biologically becoming an adult or even an adult in body - but definitely not psychologically. What kind of abuse occurs here? All of the above. From some predators, that is their victim of choice. Others are like the latter type, intoxicated and infatuated by the adulation and their own desires. Desire justifies itself.. But what makes it more complex are the following points: 1) the adult has an intellect. They know that this is an immature child, they know that this is illegal, they know that this is a violation - and they do it anyway. They rationalize past it - but they know it. 2) The individual who is drawn to immaturity is, by definition, profoundly inadequate. They can only feel powerful and complete with the weak. Can you see how the line, therefore, between the purely predatory and the inadequate breaks down? Both desire weak vulnerability to "feed off." In sum, then, there are no two "types." There are gradations of a single type, people who see sexuality as a means of nourishment, to take from a vulnerable other - by whatever means necessary - what they want. In ALL cases, the core drive is narcissism - the only thing that really matters is me. The distinction is one of comfort with the evil - of pure selfishness. The more purely predatory is absolutely at home with this. The more "inadequate" has some level of human feelings and they find psychological tricks to work on themselves to make it alright.
All of this leads to my final point. With due respect and protection of the victim in any such incident, there is more to understand than "don't do bad things." Only by understanding why someone does such can we protect against it. It is a fascinating thing that perpetrators of abuse use as "camo," a kind of charm. The same ability to seduce and get under the defenses of the victim is a skill to reassure the protectors that nothing is going on. The best predator is not some shambling, foul smelling beast that lurches out of a sewer. The best predator is a flower, a Venus flytrap, that people want in their garden.
In any such case, one must ask, "What did I not see? What did I see and not perceive? What did I discount?" I do NOT mean that C. George's "case" is tried here, unless some member of the dojo was to get on and say, "Here's the way this man conned me. I recognize now these set-ups were his forte." But in general, one can only learn about what are probably the most skilled criminals in the world, people who do their violations right in front of other people, when we understand how they do what they do.
Best

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Old 09-26-2008, 12:40 PM   #317
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Personal/Abstract

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Narcissism feeds on inadequacy, not the light of truth). - (We need to learn, again, about predators, but now we also need to learn how people manage to use their own desires as "proof" that this situation is different - "it's not abuse here, because my feelings are special.)"
It would seem to me that there is a direct relationship between what you are saying about sexual predation and the issue of violence in the martial arts setting. I think that a huge number of people come to martial arts because they feel afraid on some level. I think they often have the mistaken idea that if they could just get enough power, to have the ability to defeat any opponent, that they won't feel afraid any more. They constantly keep trying to prove to themselves that they are powerful by hurting others, they try to show themselves that they aren't afraid by having others be afraid of them. Certainly, a guy like Klickstein had both the sexual abuse and the physical abuse going on in his dojo. Anyway, I would think that the root causes of these issues would be similar.
- George

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Old 09-26-2008, 12:44 PM   #318
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
... maybe even in page one of a new thread instead of page 13 of a thread with title "Very Disturbing news about Clint George"?
There is (was) such a thread: "Abuse of Authority in Aikido," http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14158
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:58 PM   #319
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Re: Personal/Abstract

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
But in general, one can only learn about what are probably the most skilled criminals in the world, people who do their violations right in front of other people, when we understand how they do what they do.
Professionally I have to second Sensei Amdur's informative statements and thank him for it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:39 PM   #320
Dan Rubin
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

In addition to understanding how the predator operates, I think it is also important to know how the state (in this case, the State of Montana) deals with the predator (which justifies keeping up with the status of Clint George's case). When prevention has failed, when we feel that our personal power cannot protect us, our only recourse is the power of the state. Without knowing the details surrounding Clint George's behavior it will be hard for us to judge the appropriateness of the state's response, but it's all we have.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:26 PM   #321
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

People like that are a threat to society. They are terrorist in disguise. Sort of a Sethian Omniscient Satan!

I have three daughters and this news makes me cringe. He should get the electric chair for destroying a child's life. We should have no piety on individuals like him.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:40 PM   #322
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
People like that are a threat to society. They are terrorist in disguise. Sort of a Sethian Omniscient Satan!

I have three daughters and this news makes me cringe. He should get the electric chair for destroying a child's life. We should have no piety on individuals like him.
Thank you Salim, I couldn't agree more. As a father of two daughters I can say that incarceration is the safest place for these people (term used very liberally). We spend a lot of time focusing on how these people get this way or what makes them do this or that....truth is I don't care. I care about the victim. I care that my daughters are never one.

I lived in Saudi Arabia and the one thing they did well was deal with child molestors-your first offense was your last. There was no rehabilitation, no group sessions, no sex offender lists. There was however a very public punishment with a very sharp scimitar. Not to start a discussion on capital punishment, but some things definitely deserve it!

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Old 09-26-2008, 09:02 PM   #323
Marc Kupper
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote: View Post
I lived in Saudi Arabia and the one thing they did well was deal with child molestors-your first offense was your last. There was no rehabilitation, no group sessions, no sex offender lists. There was however a very public punishment with a very sharp scimitar. Not to start a discussion on capital punishment, but some things definitely deserve it!
That statement makes me realize that Aikido does not seem to have the concept of punishment for past actions. We train for what's happening now. Is it within the scope of Aikido to punish someone for a past action or to take action because a person may be a threat to either ourselves or someone else in the future?
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:25 PM   #324
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I have been very vocal about this situation. I see the need not to sweep this under the Aikido rug. And those who see the situation in terms of separating the man from the art. I see those who felt others are more liberal in terms of how this issue is/was treated and not too quick to judge for a shelf full of reasons. And those who like myself judged quickly and where not as delicate on how see seen the situation. Of yesterday another concern came to life of why this issue shouldn't get attention.

We as humans have a need to communicate, maybe its part of our survival skills. Look, we created the internet, telephones, letters, smoke signals...etc all to communicate more effectively and faster. We as people understand communication among our family, tribe, community etc, is part of survival of those groups. In our modern times we call it news. The tsunami that struck Thailand on Dec 26, 2004 was the result of lack of communication that killed so many people. It is the lack of communication that allows criminals to work effectively. It is the efforts of communication that keeps crime down. It is communication that provides freedom, it frees people from all sort of oppressions.

It is communication that must continue.

Last edited by Buck : 09-26-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:12 PM   #325
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Marc Kupper wrote: View Post
That statement makes me realize that Aikido does not seem to have the concept of punishment for past actions. We train for what's happening now. Is it within the scope of Aikido to punish someone for a past action or to take action because a person may be a threat to either ourselves or someone else in the future?
Would you LET the DEVIL into your home? A person like that is EVIL beyond words. There is no forgiving. They should be destroyed to prevent further harm.

We're talking about destroying the life of a child, who can't make certain decisions about their own life. Who doesn't have the aptitude to know right from wrong fully.

Aikido is not the law that governs human sanctity, a child's life is not a means to be philosophical.

It's because of statments like that, I can't accept Aikido religion. Unbelievable.

Last edited by salim : 09-26-2008 at 10:15 PM.
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