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Old 09-24-2008, 12:36 PM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I sure wish we could have another "Aiki" Expo. I have "felt" more than one "Aiki Expression" myself and those Expos had allot to do with that.
Like the last one?

Worth attending for sure.

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Old 09-24-2008, 02:25 PM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Though I am quite happy to see that Dan and Mike...don't agree on what they SEE as IT.
I do not believe this is a correct statement.

My understanding is that we all agree that Mike saw it.

Dan wrote:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Their attacks are one-side weighted and using muscle and then receiving his aiki without changing it.
[I bolded the "aiki".]

My impression is that this means he also see IT but is not too impressed with that particular application of aiki.

Rob
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:43 PM   #28
tuturuhan
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I do not believe this is a correct statement.

My understanding is that we all agree that Mike saw it.

Dan wrote:

[I bolded the "aiki".]

My impression is that this means he also see IT but is not too impressed with that particular application of aiki.

Rob
Mike says Nishikido has IT and Dan says "he is not very good". Seems like a point of contention to me.

As for Kuroda, Dan has "to feel him".

From what I see, Kuroda is very very good.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:48 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

As there may be many levels of any skill, of course there may be many levels of "it". Just because someone has a clue, doesn't mean they are the next Einstein...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:17 PM   #30
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Joseph,
"Good" is a relative term, as is "very, very good."
One man's "good" is another man's "mediocre."



Or is that, "One man's fish is another man's poisson?"
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:22 PM   #31
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Ron and Rob...not surprisingly you got my meaning exactly.

a) I agreed with Mike, I just expanded that the guy wasn't as good at "it" as he could be.
b) Further I stated things he could so to improve-not the least of which were methods that could be found here and why they were better to train than that...stuff.
c) I also agree with Mikes last post- that you will most probably find a deeper use of internal power in Chinese arts...IF...you can find someone who has it and ...IF...you can find someone who knows how to teach it. One of the reason why that is not just the level of knowledge but also so skill in using it fluidly in exchange, and absolute requirement to growth.

That said I think where Mike and I may disagree is that there are deeper levels than what he has seen so far in some fella's in the Japanese arts who took their training to levels outside of the inherent weaknesses found in kata.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:13 PM   #32
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
On high level technique......
I have felt high level technique from many, most obviously Takamura sensei but this also includes several top notch Daito ryu shihan, aikido shihan. Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimir Vasiliev etc...

Is it all the same? No. Each manifest their advanced application of waza in different in way. Kuroda takes your center immediately with a very soft touch. It's like an encounter with a ghost and unlike what I've felt from anyone in Daito ryu. I'm not saying its necessarily better, but it is distinctly different. Laying hands on Ushiro Kenji feels like grabbing a gorilla. ( Okay you got him, what are you going to do with him?) All the others are great, each in their unique way. My point is that people often become fixated on what "they" consider high level. If you like X-ryu okuden-aiki-myoden-voodoo, good for you, go do it. However, don't dismiss everything else thats different out of hand. Keep an open mind and realize you'll never learn it all. Myopic evaluation of others is intellectual failure and the stuff of defeat.
Toby
I think some of the guys here should address these comments as they have described -us- as;
Feeling ghosty, taking your center at a touch, feeling like a gorilla-all in the same men. Not to mention getting hit or what happens after you do grab that ghosty / gorilla -it usually ends up with you being thrown-not them.

It isn't about high level "technique," or expression of "technique." Technique and highly refined expressions of singular skills is what many guys have been getting away with for years. while they are great skills, they are none-the-less not "it." They can be partial understanding of it, or just simple waza, doing what waza is desgined to do- successfully mask inherent weakness in form or movements. Rob and Gleason have excellent definitions and theories on "The why of waza."
Anyway, so with having a partial understanding It's easy to impress someone who doesn't understand a broader scope of these skills and how they are all joined. It's also why no one wants to claim to be an expert yet!!!. Most see them and how deep they probably can go. That said they aren't meant to exist as partial skills. Each of these things are all manifistations of a body trained in internal power, used in internal skills or aiki. Anyone who "has it" should be able to express them all to the degree they "have it." More pointedly, "having it," means you are, by default, expressing it in balance. thus you are displaying all of these skills...as they exist in balance as one-as you grow in them.
What makes you ghosty is supported by what makes you feel like a gorilla, what makes you hit like a truck, makes you damn near impossible to throw, which make you very sticky and trapping and powerhouse when you hit.
Again though for those who may not know, and may be expressing residual doubts it is best to hear it from dozens who have described these phenomena all in single people's "feel" on meeting them. Their understanding of...it...is inescapable on touch.

Another case in point is people who do have it can and have played with Boxers, Judoka, MMA, Aikido, Daito ryu, Bagua, Taiji etc., all the while exhibiting those qualities of softness and power as one.
Doing push hands with serious players-demonstrates these things well; ghosty, trapping, leading, heavy, taking of center at a touch and....slam time.

So, back to methods.
If you don't have internal power training in your art, you are missing the finest training of your life. If you do, but you are training it in kata only, and worse as one-step kata, instead of in a fluid exchange with those who can absorb, change, redirect, capture, and throw you, using the same types of skills you possess? You will remain stuck and limited. Further, you will be susceptible to being taken apart by someone who trains at a level that is more dynamic and involves fluid non-cooperation..

Last edited by DH : 09-24-2008 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:28 PM   #33
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Dan,

First you say this, reiterating that there's no "club" and no one attempting to evaluate everyone else.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Also, if you go back and read there is no one offering or willing to be an arbiter for judging everyone.
Then you post something like this?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think some of the guys here should address these comments as they have described -us- as;
Feeling ghosty, taking your center at a touch, feeling like a gorilla-all in the same men. Not to mention getting hit or what happens after you do grab that ghosty / gorilla -it usually ends up with you being thrown-not them.

It isn't about high level "technique," or expression of "technique." Technique and highly refined expressions of singular skills is what many guys have been getting away with for years. while they are great skills, they are none-the-less not "it." They can be partial understanding of it, or just simple waza, doing what waza is desgined to do- successfully mask inherent weakness in form or movements. Rob and Gleason have excellent definitions and theories on "The why of waza."
Anyway, so with having a partial understanding It's easy to impress someone who doesn't understand a broader scope of these skills and how they are all joined. It's also why no one wants to claim to be an expert yet!!!. Most see them and how deep they probably can go. That said they aren't meant to exist as partial skills. Each of these things are all manifistations of a body trained in internal power, used in internal skills or aiki. Anyone who "has it" should be able to express them all to the degree they "have it." More pointedly, "having it," means you are, by default, expressing it in balance. thus you are displaying all of these skills...as they exist in balance as one-as you grow in them.
What makes you ghosty is supported by what makes you feel like a gorilla, what makes you hit like a truck, makes you damn near impossible to throw, which make you very sticky and trapping and powerhouse when you hit.
Again though for those who may not know, and may be expressing residual doubts it is best to hear it from dozens who have described these phenomena all in single people's "feel" on meeting them. Their understanding of...it...is inescapable on touch.

Another case in point is people who do have it can and have played with Boxers, Judoka, MMA, Aikido, Daito ryu, Bagua, Taiji etc., all the while exhibiting those qualities of softness and power as one.
Doing push hands with serious players-demonstrates these things well; ghosty, trapping, leading, heavy, taking of center at a touch and....slam time.

So, back to methods.
If you don't have internal power training in your art, you are missing the finest training of your life. If you do, but you are training it in kata only, and worse as one-step kata, instead of in a fluid exchange with those who can absorb, change, redirect, capture, and throw you, using the same types of skills you possess? You will remain stuck and limited. Further, you will be susceptible to being taken apart by someone who trains at a level that is more dynamic and involves fluid non-cooperation..
Frankly I'm stumped at the communication disconnect exhibited in threads like this. It makes any attempt at substantive engagement pointless and a waste of my valuable time. So thanks for reminding why I don't have the time to offer my DIRECT, not speculative insights.

Toby Threadgill
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:51 PM   #34
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

What?
Wait a minute-hold on. Now you have me confused.

I don't know why that troubled -you- at all.
You were discussing "high level technique" and named it so. Not internal power or aiki. And how those guys each exhibited different characteristics in technique that were excellent and maybe should not be dismissed out of hand. I furthered that by suggesting that tecnique is what happens after, and anyone who has internal power should be manifesting all of them, not just one.

The material -I- chose to discuss- was outside of your entire discussion of technique Toby. To draw a comparison between waza and internal power. Waza, be it high level or not has a place but it isn't what the thread was about. So my disscusion was an add-on to a waza discussion. It is also why I referred to Rob and Bill who have some excellent theories on why and how even high level techniques evolved. It more or less is along the lines that the waza served to cover structural weakness, but often in singular planes as a means to protect or cover a movement.
Internal power is training that goes beyond "high level technique" and can join them as one as it covers all aspects and all planes as one.
To which-I was hoping you would have agreed. Since you have internal training in your art, I am sure you see where they support and are all the same things at least on a basic level. If anything I assumed you would have agreed and responded favorably to.

Wait...did you read the post as if I was refering -to- you? I wasn't. Other wise I would have started with
Toby.....
I was making a point about "high level techniques" be they great or not, and seeing them in a different light through internals which can manifest all of those qualities, without technique. Make more sense?

Last edited by DH : 09-24-2008 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:44 PM   #35
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

To some people, Nishikido is a guy who made some progress with aiki...

To other people, I'm sure the following are FACTS:

Nishikido doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

Nishikido does not sleep. He waits.

Nishikido doesn’t wear a watch, HE decides what time it is.

(I stole this from my favorite lines about Chuck Norris.)

-Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-24-2008 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:15 PM   #36
Marc Abrams
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I simply consider myself a beginner just trying to learn better. I do not profess the absolute knowledge as to THE means and methods to achieve the internal skills that few people have, can display and are out there teaching us.

One of those people whom I study with and mentioned in this thread is Ushiro Sensei. He STRONGLY believes that the path to true and deep understanding of martial arts is through PROPER transmission in and training in kata. Myself and two other gentleman are finishing a translation of his second book into English, which powerfully addresses this belief. This book should be available in the US by the end of this year.

Dan, Rob and others strongly believe that this type of training is not a good path to pursue. I simply ask that all of us keep an open mind towards understanding how we might "advance" in our pursuit of the "internal," particularly since no one out there has proclaimed themselves to be prophets of the "true way."

To those who still have an open mind and would like to experience personally the value of proper transmission in and training in kata, Ushiro Sensei will be in New York in October of this year. Space is still available for this seminar. If you are interested, visit my website at www.aasbk.com and go to the events section.

Personally, I do personal training, Aikido training directly with Imaizumi Sensei, teach Aikido, train under Howard Popkin Sensei and train under Ushiro Sensei. I cannot say with any degree of authority or certainty as to what is causing what to get better. I retain an open mind to experience what people have to offer. Maybe we should simply leave it as to what we do and refrain from assuming what other people can or cannot do, offer or cannot offer, teach or cannot teach. It is easy to pass judgment from the back rows or our self-proclaimed perches. The value of certain people's opinions has added a lot to my thinking and how I train (Dan and Mike are two such people). The presumptuous opinions without direct knowledge of others simply turns what could be valuable threads into "dead-enders."

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:32 PM   #37
stan baker
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hi Marc,

My taiji teacher Wang Hai Jun is basically saying the same thing. Do the form to develope internal power. Push hands and application is not that important. I think Dan is working on a more direct route,he is really on to something. The main point, solo training and knowing what and how to practice. not so easy, but Dan is trying to make it more clear.

stan
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:54 PM   #38
HL1978
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,

My taiji teacher Wang Hai Jun is basically saying the same thing. Do the form to develope internal power. Push hands and application is not that important. I think Dan is working on a more direct route,he is really on to something. The main point, solo training and knowing what and how to practice. not so easy, but Dan is trying to make it more clear.

stan
I wouldn't totally discount push hands once you have some understanding of these skills. If when doing push hands you are trying to tie up your opponent's limbs, or overly using a lot of muscle it doesn't help train these skills. If you are using it as a means of understanding how to ground, negate, or redirect forces solely utilizing internal strength gained through solo training or other partner exercises, it is a valuable exercise applicable to grappling as it is merely a short form of stand up grappling.
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Old 09-24-2008, 10:57 PM   #39
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I wouldn't totally discount push hands once you have some understanding of these skills. If when doing push hands you are trying to tie up your opponent's limbs, or overly using a lot of muscle it doesn't help train these skills. If you are using it as a means of understanding how to ground, negate, or redirect forces solely utilizing internal strength gained through solo training or other partner exercises, it is a valuable exercise applicable to grappling as it is merely a short form of stand up grappling.
Boy we have to be more careful and clear. I have to slow down and collect my thoughts before I post so quickly and off-handedly.
Hunter
Stan meant the exact opposite of what you thought he was saying too. Ouch! You are in fact-agreeing with Stan. He advocates push hands and what you can do with it.
He was dismayed, as are many I have met in ICMA that -their- teachers were telling them-"Do more forms, do more forms." (kata). And they don't really make gains like they could. So, when Stan asked his teachers (after he started finally getting more power in training in more direct methods here) he got "Do more forms."
SO he he watched me with some very serious ICMA master level teachers, he bore witness over two years here to teachers from a host of arts train in direct methods here and he is literally watching them gain power, softness and sensitivty. So he has some serious thoughts as to kata and form being a much slower training model, in light of witnessing the resut of more direct methods.
Stan, if I messed that up, my apologies
Gees

Last edited by DH : 09-24-2008 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:05 AM   #40
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I think this further speaks to the issue about Kata, forms, and art specific "fixed ideas of training through kata" quite well. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=29

In the end is it
Just -a- way?
The only way?
The best way?
Or the slowest way after all.
Or even a more less efficient way -as there is more than likely a deeper body of skills than found in one art.

Last edited by DH : 09-25-2008 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 06:52 AM   #41
Marc Abrams
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think this further speaks to the issue about Kata, forms, and art specific "fixed ideas of training through kata" quite well. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=29

In the end is it
Just -a- way?
The only way?
The best way?
Or the slowest way after all.
Or even a more less efficient way -as there is more than likely a deeper body of skills than found in one art.
Dan:

Your conclusions seem to based on your limited knowledge and experience base. You have found a path that works for you based upon your limited knowledge and experience base. I am simply suggesting that there may be other paths that are deeper than the ones that you thought were the same and did not provide you with the answers that you were looking for.

I think that you have found a path that provides you and those who study with you, a lot of valuable training. I personally would love to find the time to make it up to your barn because you do have things of value to offer. I simply do not jump to generalized conclusions as quickly as you do. We both look to test out what we are doing and learning. This path leads me to open my eyes as to how much is really out there and how there are MANY different paths to gain valuable knowledge and skills.

Respectfully,

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:33 AM   #42
HL1978
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think this further speaks to the issue about Kata, forms, and art specific "fixed ideas of training through kata" quite well. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=29

In the end is it
Just -a- way?
The only way?
The best way?
Or the slowest way after all.
Or even a more less efficient way -as there is more than likely a deeper body of skills than found in one art.
My opinion is that its "just a way", in that it is a way to transition from training these skills in static postures to being able to maintain the same structure, internal pressure etc while in motion. If a specific art's curriculum doesn't contain solo training as discussed here (standing, aunkai exercises just to name a few), I guess it could be considered the only way to develop this type of strength if you haven't experienced anything outside one's art , if you are lucky enough to have an instructor who knows what they are doing pushing on you to show you how to create those same feedings you wish to maintain.

Of course for people willing to look outside their own art, I think your last comment applies.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:27 AM   #43
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:
Your conclusions seem to based on your limited knowledge and experience base. You have found a path that works for you based upon your limited knowledge and experience base. I am simply suggesting that there may be other paths that are deeper than the ones that you thought were the same and did not provide you with the answers that you were looking for.

I think that you have found a path that provides you and those who study with you, a lot of valuable training. I personally would love to find the time to make it up to your barn because you do have things of value to offer. I simply do not jump to generalized conclusions as quickly as you do. We both look to test out what we are doing and learning. This path leads me to open my eyes as to how much is really out there and how there are MANY different paths to gain valuable knowledge and skills.

Respectfully,
Marc Abrams
Marc
Where or what are my conclusions?
How do "conclusions" enter into questions about Kata training only to learn internal power such as those I asked above?
Quote:
In the end is it
Just -a- way?
The only way?
The best way?
Or the slowest way after all.
Or even a more less efficient way -as there is more than likely a deeper body of skills than found in one art.
Those seem to me, to be open to all "conclusions."

How are your recommendations to go and experience any different than mine-repeated like a tape loop.
Go feel, go test. Go find out.

As to experiences, those do tend to produce opinions through touch and feel and observation. However, the call to everyone's *truths* being of equal and even recognition rings as hollow as singular truths.
Why? Both smack of protectionism or pre-set prejudice. There is no better way to train? No specific and faster path to internal power and aiki? Really? How are --you- sure?

There are those who dearly love whatever it is they may doing and the longer they vested in doing it, the more they want validation of it. I'm not interested in that mentality- as it is self-fulfilling. The good ones don't care about win lose or draw and are not willing to let something they are vested in overrule a better body of work. They are seeking for the best method that produces results- replicable results.
I'm not speaking to everybody. I was never interested in doing that in the first place. Of the thousands who are reading there are hundreds who got out to do that very thing over the last few years with different people willing to teach in an open fashion their "truth" of shorter path to power that for some very weird, and highly improbable coincidence seems to work in …oh…dozens of Asian arts. Is that just a coincidence? No, I don't think so,
Again they are finding those results are universal in use in the arts. And individuals and arts are of a secondary concern. That said my experiences continue to lead me to favor the Chinese side of things over the Japanese in terms of paths to power.
Anyway, as I continue to say if someone says they understand and have internal power go feel it. How or what you choose to do with it is your business. I've advocated those in the aiki arts use it to strengthen and make them among the most powerful arts in the world.

If you or others think they already are? Well, I go back to the advice that- I -.keep giving unrelentedly... go out and feel and test. There are those who are currently doing the later to those who are convinced of the former.
Others will continue to keep closed in their transmission and only teach to their students. It's always been that way. I remain neutral to that. I'd just encourage those who are looking for internal power and aiki to continue -where allowed- to feel and test them as well whenever they can, to discern between waza, and power.
Make no mistake. I donlt point to me and never have. I keep pointing to go test and find out about these skills from anyone who may have them. And there are hundreds of my posts here to support that statement. I'm bold enough to state that I am speaking to people who are -in the end-going to make themselves among the next generation of the most powerful traditional Martial Artist alive, maybe among the most powerful in any venue, as these skills are the single greatest advantage there is.

Last edited by DH : 09-25-2008 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:47 AM   #44
tuturuhan
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi Rennis,

On high level technique......

I have felt high level technique from many, most obviously Takamura sensei but this also includes several top notch Daito ryu shihan, aikido shihan. Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimir Vasiliev etc...

Is it all the same? No. Each manifest their advanced application of waza in different in way. Kuroda takes your center immediately with a very soft touch. It's like an encounter with a ghost and unlike what I've felt from anyone in Daito ryu. I'm not saying its necessarily better, but it is distinctly different. Laying hands on Ushiro Kenji feels like grabbing a gorilla. ( Okay you got him, what are you going to do with him?) All the others are great, each in their unique way. My point is that people often become fixated on what "they" consider high level. If you like X-ryu okuden-aiki-myoden-voodoo, good for you, go do it. However, don't dismiss everything else thats different out of hand. Keep an open mind and realize you'll never learn it all. Myopic evaluation of others is intellectual failure and the stuff of defeat.

Respects,

Toby
Toby,

I just wanted to repeat your quote again. It was cogent, experiential and humble.

From what I've seen of Kuroda, I am quite impressed. My personal belief is that the weapons "intensify, magnify and make deadly".

Kuroda seems to do more weapons than "empty hand". Today, it is the opposite. More people do "empty hand" and virtually no weapons.

Some people on this board have talked about why Ueshiba did not allow his "students" to use the sword and how aikido has lost its "weapons" expertise. This is interesting in light of the fact, that aikido was based on the sword. Was there an obvious secret that he left out? Hmmmm.

Kuroda, has it...because he can extend his ki...through his weapons. As such his "empty hand" learns from his extension...and becomes quite deadly.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:03 AM   #45
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'd just encourage those who are looking for internal power and aiki to continue -where allowed- to feel and test them as well whenever they can, to discern between waza, and power.
Make no mistake. I donlt point to me and never have. I keep pointing to go test and find out about these skills from anyone who may have them.
Just a reminder: are you going to provide an example of a video of traditional Japanese Martial Arts showing body work that impresses you, and state why it impresses you? It would be helpful to those of us "who are looking".

Thanks in advance!

Jim
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:28 AM   #46
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

My question about any teacher who has it - in this case Ushiro sensei is always: Does Ushiro sensei have any students who have developed recognizable internal power in under 6 years? Is it more like a 20-25-30 year system? Do (can?) any students apply their internal power outside of karate?

I have trained waza and kata for decades. I've trained waza to what I would consider the nth degree for quite some time now. I have also dedicated quite a bit of time and energy trying to apply the principles I learned in the waza outside of aikido. (Which is why I am interested in William Hazen's approach.)

Just a couple years back, I tested for yondan. Fortunately, I hadn't had any sleep for over 3 days (due to work and family stuff). During that randori, I found that the many tricks I typically had up my sleeve (which I used successfully against bjjers attacking me freely) were just not enough with a tired mind. That experience taught me that THE biggest martial value of years of waza is the trained body you get from that kind of thing and further that my body was not trained well enough.

My believe in aikido's effectiveness remains that when your mind is sharp enough to hide my structural weaknesses from others as well, it works well enough against people who do not have well trained martial bodies who are attacking you. Can you use your aikido to defend a family member being attacked? Where the energy is not directed at you? I doubt it. The only people who can, have extremely well trained bodies relative to the attacker.

You know, the funny thing is that I'm pretty decent at some kata and that now that I think about it, I'll NEVER do again that way - EVER. Because it is just bad for training my body to move like that.

Is my mind open? Yes. Just this Tuesday, I just did something that I didn't know a human could do. It blew my mind and freaked my muscles out too because they seemed to want to get involved.

I'm open minded. I just want to evaluate based on valuable skills and how long to acquire them.

Can Ushiro sensei's (or insert anyone on the kata/waza approach) students deliver force without committing weight? Are they vulnerable in terms of balance (along the line from anus to navel) while they move ? If they can do these aiki type things, are they ALL at that level in say under 6 years?

If not, are there other significant advantages you can describe that gives merit to kata/waza based training? I'm completely open to any ideas on the subject. Please, by all means, describe them.

Thanks,
Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-25-2008 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #47
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Kuroda seems to do more weapons than "empty hand". Today, it is the opposite. More people do "empty hand" and virtually no weapons.
Joseph,

One thing lost in all this "kuchiwaza" is context. Kuroda teaches a classical bujutsu system. Everything he does exists in the context of a particular framework. Shishin Takuma ryu is a taijutsu system that was created as an adjunct to kenjutsu & iaijutsu. It is not and never was intended to be a school of pugilism or wrestling. So it is outside the arts paradigm to employ the hard striking found is an art like Ushiro's Shindo ryu karate. Therefore, why would you quantify their internal skills by evaluating striking ability? Understand? Where Kuroda's manifestation of superior body skills demonstrates itself is in superhuman speed and precision. This is a school predominantly focused on swordwork afterall. Power is of secondary importance when we're talking razor sharp steel meeting flesh. How much power do you need to cut a major artery with a katana? I'll take speed in his world anyday, thank you........

Now imagine I'm in Kuroda's box looking out. I see a guy like one posting here. I say, "Yeah, they're strong but they're too slow, They don't have "it". They are limited in their abilities and don''t understand what they're missing"

Wouldn't that likewise be a sign of arrogance?

Rob asked if any of Ushiro's students can apply their internal strengths outside of karate. My response is, why would they? They are karateka! That's their paradigm,

This is what I mean by context. Making critical observations of people or systems outside their context seems pointless to me. If your training matches your context, great! If it doesn't, then there needs to be a change. That's what really needs to be the subject here. Being myopic is the problem. What Mike and Dan's insights offer is valuable but risks becoming bit cultish when opinons are presented without the insight or direct experience to back them up. Something that really grates on me is saying go out and feel it and then commenting on something or someone you've never personally felt. Don Angier, Kuroda, Ryabko and Ushiro developed their internal skills in a different manner than those being promoted here. For people posting here to conclude that different methods for achieveing internal skills are either inferior or less efficient without DIRECT experience to make such a conclusion is so obviously flawed that it borders on arrogance.

I have a suggestion for some of you that think the solo kata system is the only, best or most efficient way to achieve internal skills. Stop with the opinions based on limited exposure. Go out and feel Mikhail Ryabko. Don't watch video's, go feel the man in person. Challenge him and see what happens! Then go play with a guy like Bob King or Joe Neal who's hasn't been doing Systema longer that 5-6 years and get back to us. My experience with Systema is real not imagined! These guys can hit like freight trains and are as soft anyone your liable to meet. They learned their skills in another method than I learned mine, which is very similar to that being promoted here. That's why I keep a truly open mind and don't comment on things I have no direct experience with. I've been burned before by having a closed mind so I've put that limiting factor away in my pursuit of superior budo.

Another thing to keep in mind. If this stuff was the end all, be all of martial skill, why isn't anyone doing this type of training, the heavyweight boxing champion of the world? I've done competitive karate, western boxing and muay thai. What I learned in these pursuits is that these worlds are very Darwinian. What works ......works. What doesn't...doesn't. Every truly competitive martial pursuit develops a training methodology that works because it evolved in the harsh crucible of testing....Real 'balls to the walls' testing!

If these methods are so generally superior to others, bring me a Chinese IMA guy and lets put him in the ring with a guy like Mike Tyson and see who hits harder. Again, my mind is open to any result because I don't know the answer.

Good day,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 09-25-2008 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:04 AM   #48
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Did Bob King or Joe Neal learn their skills doing kata or waza?
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:23 AM   #49
Marc Abrams
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Toby has said it better than I ever could. I was fortunate to attend both Aiki Expos where I had a chance to feel and interact with all of the people he mentioned (including Toby himself).

Each of those people achieved skills and abilities from very different learning paradigms. Each of them are remarkably talented in what they do. I do not place time frames upon their learning paradigms, nor do I assume to believe that I understand them. I am lucky enough to train with good people who have different teaching paradigms who honor me by sharing their knowledge with me.

I, like Toby, do not know the answers, but am open to learning. As to making recommendations, I can only share with people my personal experiences and ask them to find their own.

Marc Abrams

ps.- Rob, Ushiro Sensei is in town in October. He is very gracious and would be more than willing to answer any questions you may have.
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:28 PM   #50
rob_liberti
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Usually when someone says you cannot judge something from outside, I think sure you can. What is the criteria? So I listed some. I'm very open to other sets of criteria.

Marc,

I understand that you do not place time frames on people's learning paradigms. I'm not sure that your preference invalidate my criteria, but I'm certainly open to reading about your criteria. Even if you do not do feel it is important, would you mind answering the question in case it matters to someone else?

Myself, I wonder things like if Ikeda sensei is in his 60s and he undertakes a new say 30 year program to develop internal skills, doesn't that mean he's going to be in his 90s when he's ready to show us these skills applied to aikido? I don't know that it is a 30 year program. I would like to know how long it typically takes.

If you can get Ushiro sensei to write on this board, I'll be happy to ask him myself. If not, my time is pretty limited these days so would you mind asking him when you see him yourself and letting us know what he says?

I really do not understand why people say you cannot judge these training methods from outside. I listed criteria that I found relevant. If you have OTHER criteria that you find relevant please by all means list that. What is the relevant criteria from within your system to measure progression? (Most systems have some sort of ranks.)

Toby,

When I think about "why would a karate person use skills outside of karate" it kind of reminds me of when people in school get confused with the purpose of math. To me, math is a system used to help us approximate reality. (We use it to balance our check book and to figure out how much lumber we will need or how much time something will probably take, etc.) There are actually cases where people in the "math camp" argue their *theories* with engineers about the reality of the their measurements. I'm not sure if I have time to think the analogy through perfectly, but the idea I'm getting to here is that *from a martial perspective* martial art styles are or at least used to be *approaches* to dealing with real fighting (like math is an approach to dealing with and predicting reality). If you can take what you learned from karate and bring it to a real fight then that makes practical sense to me. If you take take what you learned in aikido and bring it to a real fight (this is from a martial perspective of course) then that makes sense to me. I hope that makes sense to you. (in the generic sense)

Rob
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