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Old 09-20-2008, 12:53 PM   #1
Mike Sigman
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Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Noticed this video of Takeo Nikishido on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GGWo8tNXIM

Bearing in mind that there is a lot of hokeyness involved in many of the demo's and the Uke's tend to be dive-bunnies, I'd have to say that Takeo Nikishido at least exhibits enough to tell me that he indeed has a very good grasp on how to use ki/kokyu-skills to do "aiki". Not that I'm judging from on high... I just mean that there is enough information via the video to make me personally feel sure without being able to feel him personally, etc., to make the call.

T, Nishido was a student of Kodo Horikawa, and of course Horikawa was a student of Sokaku Takeda. Interestingly enough, at least to me, Nikishido appears to enjoy playing with the "aiki" manipulations in very much the same way that Gozo Shioda does in some of his videos. And Shioda supposedly had *some* training under Horikawa, also.

Using the above information, I'd back-interpolate differently that Dan Harden does but arrive at the same conclusion... the bulk of Ueshiba's skills in "aiki" almost certainly derived from Takeda, although I'd hesitate a bit before I'd say that all the ki-training methods came from Takeda. And the ki-training methods are important; there are a number of methods to training these skills and Ueshiba appears to use the more classically "soft" approach than I personally see in most of the DR experts. But that's a personal opinion based on my own background.

Still, it's interesting seeing someone revel in "aiki" tricks in a way that compares to (but is showier than) Shioda's.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:20 PM   #2
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Bearing in mind that there is a lot of hokeyness involved in many of the demo's and the Uke's tend to be dive-bunnies, I'd have to say that Takeo Nikishido at least exhibits enough to tell me that he indeed has a very good grasp on how to use ki/kokyu-skills to do "aiki". Not that I'm judging from on high... I just mean that there is enough information via the video to make me personally feel sure without being able to feel him personally, etc., to make the call.
To me it’s like watching paint dry. As a display? I'll judge it and willingly back it up physically. This guy’s not that good. Of course being a Japanese art the Uke's are a mess and once again exhibiting pre-conditioned responses –this time ala Daito ryu ukemi. Under resistive stress and a more live environment, you would see a drastically different video. Sadly the art will forever be limited by those who train this way. His uke’s are holding him back from further progress. You can see it in his body. Their attacks are one-side weighted and using muscle and then receiving his aiki without changing it. If you could get him to train with better, non cooperative people-who themselves know aiki and how to use it in active resistance- then through the realties of "aiki-meeting aiki" he would, by necessity, have to soften his approach to his art. In other words, over time His uke’s would- through active changing resistance- help him to learn to use his body with a more fluid connection to absorb, emanate, be changing and playing with their energy and thereby cover a broader range of attacks. I've no issue with his intent causing aiki age rise and aiki sage through his spine, as well as his connection with their center on contact. It's just one directional and limited.

The Japanese model in what the uke's do with that energy is a false premise and exhibits and contributes to an artifice in both themselves and the art in general. There are several ways I can think of to quite literally take him apart where he stands.
I've no patience for that Japanese pre-conditioned reaction crap and I yell at people for doing it all the time. No one I have trained, will ever respond to that level of input in that “trained monkey” fashion. They will change force instantly and keep coming. They train anti-aiki to be a natural occurring state of conditioned movement in their body. That said...don’t assume everyone trains like this guy.

Quote:
Using the above information, I'd back-interpolate differently that Dan Harden does but arrive at the same conclusion... the bulk of Ueshiba's skills in "aiki" almost certainly derived from Takeda, although I'd hesitate a bit before I'd say that all the ki-training methods came from Takeda. And the ki-training methods are important; there are a number of methods to training these skills and Ueshiba appears to use the more classically "soft" approach than I personally see in most of the DR experts. But that's a personal opinion based on my own background.
I've always recognized you were interpolating that aspect-what was in DR that transferred to Aikido...from a distance. While I respect the body of knowledge you bring to the table, I never discussed that specific aspect “from a distance” I had a different view having trained in both arts for years. I had detailed reasons for drawing my "conclusions" one of which is the soft approach was in the body method of Daito ryu already. Aiki in/yo ho (breath power) and fure aiki is extremely soft with great potential for “listening” and changing energy. I see a natural progression-not an improvement-from Ueshiba’s DR to his free flow aiki…do. Strip away his spiritual beliefs and his thoughts of being one with the gods, even with his modifications in solo training that we’ve all done, and what remains are the body skills of DR shining through.

Last edited by DH : 09-21-2008 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:10 AM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

All I'm saying is something like "regardless of how poor/good/etc this guy's calligraphy, it's still recognizable as "calligraphy". No matter how poor Nishikido's effectiveness actually is, the fact that he even knows how to manipulate Uke like this tells me that his teacher/lineage had some valid stuff. And it's valid "aiki" controls that come via Horikawa and thence Takeda. So Takeda used undoubtedly pretty good aiki... hence Ueshiba certainly got his aiki ability from Takeda.

All that really interested me was in seeing a sort of bogus demonstration which, low and behold, had the guy demonstrating a series of honest and knowledgeable *possibilites* in aiki demonstrations. I was also struck that the fooling around variations looked a lot like some of the stuff the Shioda did later on.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:16 AM   #4
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hi Mike
Yes I got that. It just isn't news...to me. It would be the same as me discoving connection and aiki in the ICMA and what your reply would be to me.
Here's the connection to from Takeda to Shioda a bit more clearly
Takeda-Ueshiba-Shioda (when Ueshiba was teaching pure Daito ryu)
Takeda-Kodo-Shioda when Shioda went to Kodo to refine his aiki
It escaped no ones attention (in the Kodo-kia) when Shioda magically showed up doing Kodo kai moves in those demonstrations. All of those things he is famous for; the chest bounce, the rising aiki, the back bump, the finger thing, the toe thing, the knee swivel? Every...one..of them is a rote Kodokai thing that appeared in his repertoire after his study there. Although many of these things appear in the ICMA as well, he didn't go train -there- to get them.

So forgetting the video, the more important point remains to consider that there are ways to demonstrate the power- without all the cooperative Ukemi. Yes it will look different, but since it is viable in any format, from MMA to push hands (yes I know you know that as well-here I am talking past you to others) it can be universal. Make no mistake there are those in Daito ryu who know this full-well.
Mores the point is that it takes training in more open formats to have it be used better in open formats-it improves your understanding. You need to take the next step past the "one step" aiki waza into continual change in movement. For that reason that fellow, were he to walk into my dojo wouldn't be abe to do his shtick- as most everyone here would cancel him out by the way they both receive, change, generate power and carry their bodies. Continual change in movement makes you take the next step and be softer in your approach and maintain connection, at speed and at will.

Again talking past you- It's why I keep stating that internal power /aiki are two sides of a coin. Internal power is the vehicle that creates aiki. People can start getting aiki without good internal power and get stuck, here or there and learn in part, and stumble along getting some things and not others, and still other people are waiting for a connection that doesn't come or wondering why they can't get things to work on everyone. Many are still approaching aiki by doing things to others.
The more you work on the trained body-to get internal power-the more powerful your aiki becomes almost by default. Then....you train and learn aiki skills. Not the waza, but skill in using internal power in connection; what to do, and what not to do.

Anyway, It get difficult having the discussions stuck on Bagua, Taiji, Aikido, Daito ryu etc., with folks zeroed in making it fit their mold.

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2008 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:52 AM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Hi Mike
Yes I got that. It just isn't news...to me. It would be the same as me discoving connection and aiki in the ICMA and what your reply would be to me.
Well, it's just proof from another angle. It's also interesting to watch yet another martial-arts guy with obvious access to the same basic ki/qi/jin/kokyu skills. The real question in my mind when I saw this yet-another example on YouTube was "just how the hell many people in Japan have these skills that we don't know about?" and "how many actually had these skills in the old days?". Ellis and I have mused about this on the side and I defer to his opinions, since I don't have a strong feel for the broader Japanese martial-arts communities the way that he does.

I began to have a suspicion that I was underestimating how much of this knowledge was in JMA's during the first year I started posting on AikiWeb for info (what... 3-4 years ago?) and too much information came in from different sources (which caused me to stick around and dig some more). When I started seeing video like this one of Kuroda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXsMSoXrNgo

and then this current one of Nishikido's and other similar ones, I knew we were in trouble. This stuff is much more widely spread in Japan than we thought. Donn Draeger's vague misunderstandings about how much ki and kiai, etc., was in Japan were probably, in my opinion, because he wasn't shown how to do these things. He, like most of us, was under the impression that there wasn't much there. Heck.... there seems to be plenty there, it's just that only a few are shown. Again, Ellis would be the one to talk about that.

The point is that all this stuff is actually alive and well in Japan... the West is just way behind grasping this fact. The interesting thing is that the total skills of these things take years to fully develop, so watching the very sluggish attitude of "someday I'm going to take a weekend workshop on this stuff and add it to my already-fine martial arts" is pretty interesting. Gives me the grins.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:15 PM   #6
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
When I started seeing video like this one of Kuroda...
And Kuroda leads to the "famous" Kono:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XwYN9NO50

Now, back to lurking mode...

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Old 09-23-2008, 01:47 PM   #7
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Demetrio,

FWIW.....Yoshinori Kono bases much of what he now demonstrates on his past association with Tetsuzan Kuroda.

I have a very good relationship with Kuroda sensei and consider him the best martial artist I've ever laid hands on. His abilities are truly fantastic. As impressive as he his on video, in person he is simply mind blowing. I had a 4 1/2 hour dinner with him in Japan last summer where we discussed the intricacies of martial body mechanics. He can be very forthcoming and open about his training methods and pedagogy. Many concepts and theories Takamura sensei explained to me never fully jelled in my mind until discussing them with Kuroda sensei after Takamura sensei died. It was like flashbulbs going off in my mind after I met him the first time back in 2001.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:03 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And Kuroda leads to the "famous" Kono:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XwYN9NO50
Again, regardless of the proficiency, etc., this is all about the same basic general-principles that we've been discussing over and over. Once you know how to do these things well enough, it all looks like the same stuff. Of course, my usual caveats about there being levels and grades of ability and knowledge apply. Same song, different tune.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:35 PM   #9
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

How I see it is
Skills are one thing-many people have them.
Internal power and aiki are another-amny people can;t really effectively fight with them.
Hence they can be and usually are two totally different topics. They can also overlap
And last
Power and Aiki can come to the fore and dominate even trained skill. If you find rare individuals who have immense power in aiki with clear skills in weapons and empty hand skills covering kata and grappling.....train with them.

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2008 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:50 PM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How I see it is
skills are one thing.
Internal power and aiki are another.
Traditionally, "aiki" is going to only be an application/usage of "ki" power (which has a number of terms applied to it by different arts); "aiki" wouldn't be a separate subject where it would be called, for instance, "the aiki power".

"Jin" is the force itself, although it can be correctly called "qi", since it is considered to be the physical manifestation of qi. Tohei and others in Aikido traditionally refer to the power itself as "ki" or more limitedly as "kokyu" or other similar variant-names (like "rei-ki") of the ki-skills. "Aiki" is usually reserved in usage to the way Inaba Sensei described it. But if you look at "internal power" and "ki" they are traditionally inseparable... the one supports the other, although it's possible to have the general ki without having the specific jin/kokyu-type skills, as Tohei demonstrated by pushing over the zen monks.

Traditionally, though, "ki" and all it's facets are considered one general subject. Most of the skills and throws in the 3 videos discussed so far, Nishikido, Kuroda, and Kono could generally be called "aiki", but still the usages are simply variations of "ki power" or "kokyu power"; if the hands are used to do the application then technically the power could be called "elbow power" for easily apparent reasons.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:51 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Traditionally, "aiki" is going to only be an application/usage of "ki" power (which has a number of terms applied to it by different arts); "aiki" wouldn't be a separate subject where it would be called, for instance, "the aiki power".

"Jin" is the force itself, although it can be correctly called "qi", since it is considered to be the physical manifestation of qi. Tohei and others in Aikido traditionally refer to the power itself as "ki" or more limitedly as "kokyu" or other similar variant-names (like "rei-ki") of the ki-skills. "Aiki" is usually reserved in usage to the way Inaba Sensei described it (make the opponent's power go to zero). But if you look at "internal power" and "ki" they are traditionally inseparable... the one supports the other, although it's possible to have the general ki without having the specific jin/kokyu-type skills, as Tohei demonstrated by pushing over the zen monks.

Traditionally, though, "ki" and all it's facets are considered one general subject. Most of the skills and throws in the 3 videos discussed so far, Nishikido, Kuroda, and Kono could generally be called "aiki", but still the usages are simply variations of "ki power" or "kokyu power"; if the hands are used to do the application then technically the power could be called "elbow power" for easily apparent reasons.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:59 PM   #12
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Traditionally, "aiki" is going to only be an application/usage of "ki" power (which has a number of terms applied to it by different arts); "aiki" wouldn't be a separate subject where it would be called, for instance, "the aiki power".

"Jin" is the force itself, although it can be correctly called "qi", since it is considered to be the physical manifestation of qi. Tohei and others in Aikido traditionally refer to the power itself as "ki" or more limitedly as "kokyu" or other similar variant-names (like "rei-ki") of the ki-skills. "Aiki" is usually reserved in usage to the way Inaba Sensei described it. But if you look at "internal power" and "ki" they are traditionally inseparable... the one supports the other, although it's possible to have the general ki without having the specific jin/kokyu-type skills, as Tohei demonstrated by pushing over the zen monks.

Traditionally, though, "ki" and all it's facets are considered one general subject. Most of the skills and throws in the 3 videos discussed so far, Nishikido, Kuroda, and Kono could generally be called "aiki", but still the usages are simply variations of "ki power" or "kokyu power"; if the hands are used to do the application then technically the power could be called "elbow power" for easily apparent reasons.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I guess your talking to the greater crowd as I said the same thing.

"skills are one thing.
Internal power and aiki are another."

As I outlined in my earlier post I was talking about them as three different things.
Martial skills
Internal power
Aiki
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Old 09-23-2008, 03:23 PM   #13
DH
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, it's just proof from another angle. It's also interesting to watch yet another martial-arts guy with obvious access to the same basic ki/qi/jin/kokyu skills. The real question in my mind when I saw this yet-another example on YouTube was "just how the hell many people in Japan have these skills that we don't know about?" and "how many actually had these skills in the old days?"...
snip ...and then this current one of Nishikido's and other similar ones, I knew we were in trouble.
Trouble? To whom?
I knew it was there. Many others in DR know its there. Others in different arts know they have some methods or components of internal training. I think the real trouble is those who cannot or will not teach it.
Other than that even with those who do, they may not know themselves just what depth or to what extent their arts have it compared to others if they haven't gone out and compared with others. Some are- others might not even care. Their loss.
At any rate all of this was never and is no surprise to "everyone."

Nothing I have seen so far will compare to people who train these things extensively and as a separate and definitive body of work. In that sense, no, I don't think they are as strong and well developed as many may think they are. Case in point is that you can stop the best DR men in the world who may have decades of training in Daito ryu with the aiki you can learn in five years or so if you train in certain ways to do so.
It just depends on how you train and what you train. I said this right here four years ago about a short term learning curve that could challange aikido shihan not only in the use of aiki, but in ability to fight. We all know how that turned out.
Here now I have new people who have been training for just a year and their own teachers are asking "What in thee hell they are doing to make that aiki effect?"
So I would underscore specific body training over art specific training any day of the week.
But I'd be delighted to be surprised.

Quote:
This stuff is much more widely spread in Japan than we thought. Donn Draeger's vague misunderstandings about how much ki and kiai, etc., was in Japan were probably, in my opinion, because he wasn't shown how to do these things. He, like most of us, was under the impression that there wasn't much there.
Draeger studied with Wang Chu Shin for 2-3 years and needed no convincing-of these things- as he felt and saw Wang do things...er...up close and personal- that he could not explain and he obviously wanted. From what I was told, No, he didn't ever really get it. But a friend of his who trained with him under Wang could do some interesting things.

Quote:
Heck.... there seems to be plenty there, it's just that only a few are shown. Again, Ellis would be the one to talk about that.
Uhm...okay
There is so much there that Ellis and many others missed and didn't have the slightest inkling of-this according to his own written words and discussions- that all due respect to him-I don't think Ellis would ever consider himself a source on this topic. Hell with that..I know he wouldn't He would cringe at that.

I think most everyone would cringe at being considered a source or some sort of expert. Ouch!
So here again, I'd seriously caution anyone to believe anyone who claims they know this material no matter wat they say.It still needs to be felt in those who think they know it to any degree. And that includes those who can write about in exquisite detail. You like to say pooh. I say pooh to some who write on lists with precision and have had their descriptions…approved by the group. Who absolutely stunk up the place in person. IHTBF, all the way.

As far as Japan goes it is everywhere. I am less concerned with that, I am more concerned with if their students got to learn it-as a group.

The reason I brought up the Fighting spirit of Japan years ago (Ellis and I playfully argue over who cited it first-I did ) was that an old judoka showed me some things he had learned at the kodokan, and since this fellow was also a Daito ryu teacher it was fascinating to talk about some surprising comparisons. No, he didn't consider it aiki, but it was all jin skills with the use of ground paths and non-dedicated weight transfer in empty-gi work. So I...cough...had a *reason* cough...to go looking in Judo books, and there it was, and surprisingly with a tie-in to Judo and aikijujutsu of all things.
Next up was a Japanese sho-sho ryu teacher who had atemi, and ate waza, that was all jin skills as well. He could nail you, but trying to get in to throw him just wasn't going to happen. His students? All muscle.

Last, let's not forget that Arks little old Japanese man was a Yagyu shingen guy who showed him a series of solo training exercises for internal power.

Quote:
The point is that all this stuff is actually alive and well in Japan... the West is just way behind grasping this fact.
So of course its alive in Japan. I just think percentage wise it --is- more dead than alive. That may be on purpose or it may be the way it always was for the simple reason that folks were not shown, or they didn't get it or a combination of the two. I have seen those with power with great difficulty in articulating what to do. There is so much that is taught by practice and feel and you either get it or you don't. Couple that with things being gokui and you're just not going to find out unless you have some friendships in the right places.
Or want to go train in a classical art for long time. Either that or go find someone who has it and who is able to teach it in an articulate and clear fashion.
Here now, I balance these things I saw, trained in and felt with thers with what I know now and realize they were missing so much in the way they moved. They knew component and parts. Maybe we all do.
Quote:
The interesting thing is that the total skills of these things take years to fully develop, so watching the very sluggish attitude of "someday I'm going to take a weekend workshop on this stuff and add it to my already-fine martial arts" is pretty interesting. Gives me the grins.
Can I hear an Amen!

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2008 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:07 PM   #14
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

FWIW.....Yoshinori Kono bases much of what he now demonstrates on his past association with Tetsuzan Kuroda.
Mr. Threadgill,

Maybe the word "leads" was not the most appropiate; I was trying to point to the relationship between Kuroda Sensei and Kono Yoshinori who is a big proponent of the "it", or at least his version, via DVD's, seminars and articles in magazines, but not as if Kono Y. was the source of Kuroda Sensei body skills.

PS. I still owe you a lot of beers.

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Old 09-23-2008, 09:18 PM   #15
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And Kuroda leads to the "famous" Kono:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XwYN9NO50
Looks like a class at Okinawa Aikikai. Sensei use to work on that stuff alot. I was too busy collecting techniques for my little box to pay attention to good basics like that. Well, live and learn.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:14 PM   #16
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I'd have to feel Kuroda or see more of him. I like what he does with the sword, I'm not impressed with the body work I've seen so far.
The Kono stuff -his attacking of grips-via the mechanical connection of hand / wrist / arm and dealing with force vectors view leverage is all jujutsu. I'm not impressed in any way from what I have seen.
Where anyone sees this as "high level" is beyond me. It's more like "Sensei, what do we do in technique #27b. when the Uke grabs our arm from underneath instead of on top...yawn .

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2008 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:50 AM   #17
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'd have to feel Kuroda or see more of him. I like what he does with the sword, I'm not impressed with the body work I've seen so far.
I am still swamped at work, so I have to limit my posts to Bakerian brevity. Seriously, would you please post a link to a video showing body work that does impress you? Also, it would be helpful if you would state why the body work in the video you select impresses you.

Please note that I am not asking you to post a video of yourself.

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:08 AM   #18
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

I did in the Chen Bing video thread. I also posted a video of Liu Chengde.
I don't consider them a beneficial learning tool. Even with hands-on teaching, and point-by-point structural corrections while standing, it still it takes time. From there you have movement- which is harder still. Even were I to film whole classes, no one watching me correct people while standing would be able to adjust their bodies that way. And in motion? You wouldn't see it if you don't how to look for it.
That said, and as annoying as it can sometimes be, when you know what to look for, the failures are all over the place.

How about you post a video of you?

Last edited by DH : 09-24-2008 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:33 AM   #19
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The Kono stuff -.......(snip) ...... I'm not impressed in any way from what I have seen.
Where anyone sees this as "high level" is beyond me.
You're not alone. In fact your comments above are pretty much an exact copy of the most of the comments I've heard about him here in Japan.

Rennis
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:27 AM   #20
Jim Sorrentino
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Smile Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hello Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I did in the Chen Bing video thread. I also posted a video of Liu Chengde.
You're quite right - I should have been more specific: would you please post a link to a video of traditional Japanese Martial Arts showing body work that does impress you?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Even were I to film whole classes, no one watching me correct people while standing would be able to adjust their bodies that way. And in motion? You wouldn't see it if you don't how to look for it.
Again, I must remind you that I am not asking you to post a video of yourself --- or your classes, for that matter.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You wouldn't see it if you don't [know] how to look for it. That said, and as annoying as it can sometimes be, when you know what to look for, the failures are all over the place.
Please describe how to look for it, and specifically what you are looking for. Also, because we have never met, I am not sure how you would know anything about my ability to see good, bad, or indifferent motion. Whether I can do it is not the issue here - I freely admit that I am a beginner. But if "it has to be felt" before it can be seen, well, I have felt it. While I am most interested in learning how to do it, I will happily accept any guidance that may be available about learning how to see it as well.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How about you post a video of you?
Oh, please! You have an entire thread devoted to the question of whether you will post a video --- isn't that enough? Like Cyrano, I barely know how to respond. Here are some possibilities:

1) The Humorous: I'll show you mine if you show me yours. And because you have 1,167 posts on AikiWeb to my paltry 148, you should go first.

2) The Humble: I am but a raw beginner, and I would not want to waste your time by inviting you to watch my bumbling efforts.

3) The Earnest: Do you really want to see a video of me? Will you please give me some feedback, based on what you see, on how I can improve?

But I prefer the Honest, however: No, thank you for asking. I agree completely with your reasons (as you stated them in the "Why Dan Should Post Videos" thread) for not posting a video of yourself. Also, because I will not post videos of myself, I never offer any criticism (or praise) of the videos of those who do post them. But I do try to learn from the observations of others more intrepid in this arena than I.

This is much more time than I intended to spend on this matter. You stated that you were not impressed with what you saw of Kuroda's body work. Therefore, I asked you for an example of a video of traditional Japanese Martial Arts showing body work that impresses you. If you're got one, great, please share it. If not, please just say so, and the thread can progress. Thanks, either way.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:50 AM   #21
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

[quote=Jim Sorrentino;216779]Hello Dan,You're quite right - I should have been more specific: would you please post a link to a video of traditional Japanese Martial Arts showing body work that does impress you? Again, I must remind you that I am not asking you to post a video of yourself --- or your classes, for that matter.

Please describe how to look for it, and specifically what you are looking for. Also, because we have never met, I am not sure how you would know anything about my ability to see good, bad, or indifferent motion.

Jim,

Finally!!!

I've been waiting for someone to comment about this peculiar thread. Two guys who profess "I don't put up videos of myself" because you "need to feel" IT, who then profess a critique of OTHERS who do put up videos...is so DOUBLE STANDARD.

How can these two guys tell if the OTHERS have "IT" by watching their videos? Yet, it is impossible for US to determine if they have "IT"...as such THEY DON'T PUT UP VIDEOS OF THEMSELVES.

Though I am quite happy to see that Dan and Mike...don't agree on what they SEE as IT. By the way Mike...I agree with you...the guy in the tape does have IT!!!

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

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Old 09-24-2008, 10:11 AM   #22
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Hi Rennis,

I'm likewise unimpressed with Kono due to experiences outside that video. Despite his cooperation with Kuroda, he is no Kuroda. Kono's a reconstructor and I think that's what led Kuroda to end his association with him. In short, Kuroda's into budo, Kono's "into" Kono....

On high level technique......

I have felt high level technique from many, most obviously Takamura sensei but this also includes several top notch Daito ryu shihan, aikido shihan. Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimir Vasiliev etc...

Is it all the same? No. Each manifest their advanced application of waza in different in way. Kuroda takes your center immediately with a very soft touch. It's like an encounter with a ghost and unlike what I've felt from anyone in Daito ryu. I'm not saying its necessarily better, but it is distinctly different. Laying hands on Ushiro Kenji feels like grabbing a gorilla. ( Okay you got him, what are you going to do with him?) All the others are great, each in their unique way. My point is that people often become fixated on what "they" consider high level. If you like X-ryu okuden-aiki-myoden-voodoo, good for you, go do it. However, don't dismiss everything else thats different out of hand. Keep an open mind and realize you'll never learn it all. Myopic evaluation of others is intellectual failure and the stuff of defeat.

FWIW....I'm still bugging Kuroda sensei to teach me Kotengu ryu. I'd love to learn his Tamiya ryu and Komagawa Kaishin ryu but I've got too much on my plate with TSYR....And besides, my severly abused knees would explode attempting Tamiya ryu......dammit.

Respects,

Toby

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 09-24-2008 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:12 AM   #23
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi Rennis,

I'm likewise unimpressed with Kono due to experiences outside that video. Despite his cooperation with Kuroda, he is no Kuroda. Kono's a reconstructor and I think that's what led Kuroda to end his association with him. In short, Kuroda's into budo, Kono's "into" Kono....

On high level technique......

I have felt high level technique from many, most obviously Takamura sensei but this also includes several top notch Daito ryu shihan, aikido shihan. Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimir Vasiliev etc...

Is it all the same? No. Each manifest their advanced application of waza in different in way. Kuroda takes your center immediately with a very soft touch. It's like an encounter with a ghost and unlike what I've felt from anyone in Daito ryu. I'm not saying its necessarily better, but it is distinctly different. Laying hands on Ushiro Kenji feels like grabbing a gorilla. ( Okay you got him, what are you going to do with him?) All the others are great, each in their unique way. My point is that people often become fixated on what "they" consider high level. If you like X-ryu okuden-aiki-myoden-voodoo, good for you, go do it. However, don't dismiss everything else thats different out of hand. Keep an open mind and realize you'll never learn it all. Myopic evaluation of others is intellectual failure and the stuff of defeat.

Toby
Amen!!! You mean to say there is more than one "advanced" method of Aiki??? LOL

NOW we're getting somewhere.

I sure wish we could have another "Aiki" Expo. I have "felt" more than one "Aiki Expression" myself and those Expos had allot to do with that.

I sure hope to meet you again someday Sensei Threadgill.

William Hazen
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:16 AM   #24
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
On high level technique......

I have felt high level technique from many, most obviously Takamura sensei but this also includes several top notch Daito ryu shihan, aikido shihan. Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Mikhail Ryabko, Vladimir Vasiliev etc...

Is it all the same? No. Each manifest their advanced application of waza in different in way. Kuroda takes your center immediately with a very soft touch. It's like an encounter with a ghost and unlike what I've felt from anyone in Daito ryu. I'm not saying its necessarily better, but it is distinctly different. Laying hands on Ushiro Kenji feels like grabbing a gorilla. ( Okay you got him, what are you going to do with him?) All the others are great, each in their unique way. My point is that people often become fixated on what "they" consider high level. If you like X-ryu okuden-aiki-myoden-voodoo, good for you, go do it. However, don't dismiss everything else thats different out of hand. Keep an open mind and realize you'll never learn it all. Myopic evaluation of others is intellectual failure and the stuff of defeat.

Respects,

Toby
Hi Toby,
I agree to keep an open mind and not to dismiss things that are different.

But, I do think that the answer to the question you wrote, "Is it all the same?" would be a yes and a no. You answered "no" in that the people quoted handled the "application" of waza differently. I think most of us would have a hard time arguing that.

It's the "yes" part of the answer that tends to draw debate. I haven't had nearly the experiences of working with as many people as you have listed, and I'm a beginner at this aiki stuff ... however I've been able to work with both Mike Sigman and Dan Harden.

Two completely different applicational usages of these skills. Which makes it even more disconcerting when I'm listening to Mike teach and he says nearly the exact thing Dan has said. Double disconcerting when I'm listening to Dan and he's saying nearly the same thing that Mike has said.

How people use these skills -- very different. The base/core skill itself? I think that it's very close to being the same, if not the same. The training methods sometimes vary, but then again, sometimes they are scarily close to being the exact same thing.

And a couple of days ago, I talked with someone about training and how waza/jujutsu/etc factored into skill advancement. The person I was talking to mentioned a correlation between training in jujutsu type stuff and just training core body skills. Long story short ... the idea is -- What if waza is detrimental to building core body skills?

If you're using waza to build these skills, it's the long road. If it's a road at all. But, if you're building these skills and then working primarily in waza to use them ... will you get better? Wasn't it Sagawa that shut down his dojo just to work on solo exercises? Did he come to this realization?

I can look at someone who is doing solo exercises and paired partner work to build this skill and in 3-5 years, they are very strong (in the budo sense, not in the physical sense). If at 10-15, they start doing waza 75% of the time, then just how much core skill are they building compared to say, doing waza only 25% of the time with the rest focused on core body skills? It really makes you wonder just how much is in "waza" and how much is in core conditioning. Does waza impair the advancement of skill?
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Old 09-24-2008, 12:23 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Using ki-skills for "aiki" in Daito-Ryu

[quote=Joseph Arriola;216781 By the way Mike...I agree with you...the guy in the tape does have IT!!!
[/QUOTE]If anyone wants to look, I specifically avoided any comments about how good anyone was, since that wasn't the issue.

As a sidenote, my comment about the availability of skills in Japan was meant to be a comparison with what is available in China. I didn't expect much.... but there's more than I thought. Do I think it is a lot, comparatively? No.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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