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Old 09-18-2008, 11:05 PM   #1
MikeLogan
 
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've seen many people on many different forums observe, over the years, that Aikido forums have a reputation for passive-aggressive behavior. It's true... although I'd also suggest that the same behaviour can be found in some karate forums, some judo forums, some CMA forums, and so on.
If I may and ever so humbly, I'd like to offer the above as, hopefully a trully un-intentional insult.

It's an aikido forum, and the chance exists that at least one of thousands of users here might find the above insulting. They may have read it out of context, as you do mention other martial arts, but it was a little pointed, with a whiff of 'see I told you so'. It all still falls within the realm of unintentional as far as I see it.

The funny thing to me here is that I enjoy all of these threads on what you and people like Dan Harden, Robert John are training in. I have an interest in knowing what my body is doing (I'm one of those "myriads of people who train in pure aikido"), and what it could be doing (like "someone who trained in internal training")

I also enjoy Erick's postings, they're excellent grist for the mill that is my brain. I like to think of myself as a deep reader, but even I sometimes have to pull my chair back from the machine after getting through a particular heady vintage of Mead. That's a joke.
The point is that I'm a word nerd, I'm an engineer. I started aikido training with a group of physicists, nano-material scientists, gurus of radar and RF communications.
They all saw their training from the context of their lives. We all base our understanding and process of learning out of our past experiences.

We (everyone) can't walk the gaussian surface of, say, a magnetic field, but we can understand it as a concept, and work with it at a distance, and achieve results verifiable through other more concrete means. This reasoning ability lets us(everyone) talk when it's impossible to walk. It's impossible for me to walk with you, you're in Colorado, I can't physically experience what you're doing, so I have to ask stupid, probably under-informed questions that are based in my own experiences.

When it comes to discussing something like the development internal skills, most aikidoka, Erick, myself, among so many others can only talk about it, and hope to first have some understanding of how, why, and to what degree it differs from our aikido experience.

Now it makes perfect sense to be able to demand that someone walk the walk if or before they talk the talk. But, the internet being what it is, all talk, we must either not bring it up, or deal with it until we can all go for a walk together.

I've got to say I've not had the fire in my gut to sustain me through every (or perhaps even one) thread that these internal training topics have come up in, because it seems that in every one
of them a wick gets lit and sparks fly, drowning out the signal.

The signal. Actual information instead of Bark - Hiss! There is at least something that can be conveyed here, be it physical metaphor, an agreement of word convention, or at least something like "well, no, I disagree, let's meet on the mat in a month and see how this works in body-language, since words aren't cutting it"

Even these possibilities often seem to be set aside in favor of "calling someone out" as if one could simply will another into admitting they're the worst kind of loser in the history of the internet.

Ah, oh well. May I ask the next time there may be a workshop on internal training in the maryland/delaware/phili south jersey region?

michael logan.

Last edited by MikeLogan : 09-18-2008 at 11:15 PM.

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

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Old 09-19-2008, 08:03 AM   #2
DH
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Re: On Closing Threads

Hi Mike
The sparks can still be avoided. We're just flawed human beings.
When someone pretends to know the material and clearly doesn't. I openly state it when I see it. I don't call people liars though. I just make it known that they in fact haven't a clue about the subject being discussed. It makes them as uncomfortable hearing it as it does for me to read them saying it.
The reason, as you say, it centers around the internal discussions, is because people want to particpate and be included when they clearly just aren't qualified.

I am waiting for this simple fact to finally sink in
Every aikido person -from here- who has come has said.
1. Nope, I didn't know that
2. I didn't know how to even train for that
3. I want that


We get people angry when we state
1. Nope, you don't know this
2. You don't know how to even train for this
3. If you felt it, you would want to do it


I admit to being flawed. You will read where I apologize if I offend. It's simple for me. Its not my intention to do so, so its easy to apologize.
To date, after years of speculation, challenges and heated debate. It should not escape anyone attention that we have NEVER had to apologize about the following.
Those that came...in fact didn't know. they just thought they did. This to include shodans to sixth dans with forty years of experience.

And other than Rob Liberti I have yet to see someone write in with nearly the same...er... passion about just how much they were in fact....totally wrong.

It's the single greatest training in the world. There is nothing better. Unfortunately it is conveyed through us mere mortals.

I leave you with one more observable truth
Everyone writes back how nice and fun we all are in person and how pleasant the experience is
Why is that?
Because in person, someones utter lack of ability, skill and knowledge of this material is known instantly. Therefore...their...attitude changes and they are receptive and pleasant. No longer is there debate, no longer are they trying to get it through words, no longer is there resentment. All is known
That's why every one who comes back here...magically agrees. The material speaks for itself

Thats why I intend on visiting Erick and his teacher. It will instantly end all of this debate and those loooong explanations that are, for everyone who now knows the subject...meaningless. Remember my examples above?
Keep hoping for the positive. Its not insulting to not know something. Happens to me all the time.

FWIW I am in Mass. about 4 hours from you

Last edited by DH : 09-19-2008 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:55 AM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Closing Threads

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
If I may and ever so humbly, I'd like to offer the above as, hopefully a trully un-intentional insult.

It's an aikido forum, and the chance exists that at least one of thousands of users here might find the above insulting.
Hi Mike:

That's possible, but let's differentiate between a personal insult and a comment that offends *some* people, shall we? They're two different things. Besides, if you do the Google search I recommended and think you'll find that the correlation between "Aikido" and "passive-aggressive" has been established for a long time and even has been noted by Aikido teachers before, on this very forum. So I don't see it as a big issue worth getting into.
Quote:
The funny thing to me here is that I enjoy all of these threads on what you and people like Dan Harden, Robert John are training in. I have an interest in knowing what my body is doing (I'm one of those "myriads of people who train in pure aikido"), and what it could be doing (like "someone who trained in internal training")

I also enjoy Erick's postings, they're excellent grist for the mill that is my brain. I like to think of myself as a deep reader, but even I sometimes have to pull my chair back from the machine after getting through a particular heady vintage of Mead. That's a joke.
The point is that I'm a word nerd, I'm an engineer. I started aikido training with a group of physicists, nano-material scientists, gurus of radar and RF communications.
They all saw their training from the context of their lives. We all base our understanding and process of learning out of our past experiences.

We (everyone) can't walk the gaussian surface of, say, a magnetic field, but we can understand it as a concept, and work with it at a distance, and achieve results verifiable through other more concrete means. This reasoning ability lets us(everyone) talk when it's impossible to walk. It's impossible for me to walk with you, you're in Colorado, I can't physically experience what you're doing, so I have to ask stupid, probably under-informed questions that are based in my own experiences.

When it comes to discussing something like the development internal skills, most aikidoka, Erick, myself, among so many others can only talk about it, and hope to first have some understanding of how, why, and to what degree it differs from our aikido experience.

Now it makes perfect sense to be able to demand that someone walk the walk if or before they talk the talk. But, the internet being what it is, all talk, we must either not bring it up, or deal with it until we can all go for a walk together.

I've got to say I've not had the fire in my gut to sustain me through every (or perhaps even one) thread that these internal training topics have come up in, because it seems that in every one
of them a wick gets lit and sparks fly, drowning out the signal.

The signal. Actual information instead of Bark - Hiss! There is at least something that can be conveyed here, be it physical metaphor, an agreement of word convention, or at least something like "well, no, I disagree, let's meet on the mat in a month and see how this works in body-language, since words aren't cutting it"

Even these possibilities often seem to be set aside in favor of "calling someone out" as if one could simply will another into admitting they're the worst kind of loser in the history of the internet.

Ah, oh well. May I ask the next time there may be a workshop on internal training in the maryland/delaware/phili south jersey region?
I'm tired enough of the whole personalities issue that I'd rather drop it, if you don't mind. I see the personalities and I hear the comments (some of them pretty funny) about how important it is to like someone before some people will deign to learn from them. On the other hand, off any list and in real life, I actively exclude some people from ever coming to workshops, personal visits, etc., not because I don't like the way they talk but because they've indicated to me in some way that they are self-absorbed, not really serious, etc., and only want some information so that they can do a bit of self-aggrandizement. So yeah, we all know that stuff happens on the side... the trick is to try to leave it at the door when it comes to a public-forum discussion.

Personally, I tend to look only for the serious players with what is called "good heart". Oddly, I've never had much real trouble getting along with any of them. Good discussions tend to be serious ones that discuss the issues and not so much the participants. Keep your eye on some of the current discussions and watch how much of the talk is about a person or persons as opposed to "how to", etc. You might see what I see.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-19-2008, 12:27 PM   #4
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I'm an engineer too. Engineers rarely ever mind being wrong when we discover how to approach the right answer, because we passionately love solving difficult problems. To us, it's like being a kid in a candy store. And so, it's fun to talk about.

As far as passive aggressive goes, I say be humble and go for active assertive. And I'd say that if you (you meaning you in general) cannot honestly laugh it off when someone calls you tedious and pretentious, then you probably are...

Rob
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:03 PM   #5
Gary David
 
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

It seems to me to be a matter of timing and the question....After thirty years of training and touching other martial arts the question that had been forming for sometime in my mind about this subject came to the forefront. The timing was right so I started searching around and came across Mike's name. Pulled stuff up, read old email lists, looked at video's, read what I could find and then sent Mike an email asking a few questions. He was kind enough to answer and I had enough interest to make sure I met up with him. Face to face changes the dynamic.... if you get past the handshake it is hard not to be more respectful of what is happening and what is said...you listen. Over the internet there is no handshake. With Mike I have felt the shoulder strike and been pushed around some. Mike is what he sez he is and nice guy on top of that.

With Dan I have gone back and read what he has written in lists and forums...back some years. What I have seen with the tone of his writing is an opening up and a sharing (to some degree) of what he knows. Maybe you just have to put the pieces together yourself. It seems to me that Dan has stepped up more than he may have been willing to do a few years ago. If I didn't live on the left coast I would try to drop by and meet him.

I know William Hazen and I may take the opportunity to go done to San Diego in November when Mark Murray is planning on being in town. So I'll get to check in with him.

What I am getting at is until the question comes up in yourself, all of this is just a challenge to what you know and you will likely resist. Once you ask the question of yourself it is an opportunity to learn. It seems that you can learn a lot from just grabbing someone wrist...go grab a wrist.
Gary
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Old 09-19-2008, 03:48 PM   #6
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Face to face changes the dynamic.... if you get past the handshake it is hard not to be more respectful of what is happening and what is said...you listen. Over the internet there is no handshake. With Mike I have felt the shoulder strike and been pushed around some. Mike is what he sez he is and nice guy on top of that.

With Dan I have gone back and read what he has written in lists and forums...back some years. What I have seen with the tone of his writing is an opening up and a sharing (to some degree) of what he knows. Maybe you just have to put the pieces together yourself. It seems to me that Dan has stepped up more than he may have been willing to do a few years ago. If I didn't live on the left coast I would try to drop by and meet him.
It seems that you can learn a lot from just grabbing someone wrist...go grab a wrist.
Gary
Hi Gary
That change you spoke of was all due to Ellis Amdur, a few Mojito's and him reminding me that there were serious, and sincere people out there looking-much like I was 20 years ago when I first felt this stuff gave me a change of heart.

My "stepping-up" is perhaps an unfair term. I have an eimoroku-many from here have seen it and signed it. Since I started having people sign in-it has over 250 names in it. So I have been "stepping up" for a very long time. This doesn't include judo, mma, bjj, Bagau, Taiji, and Xing-I people I have played with either. Stepping-up is not an appropriate term. Perhaps you mean finally showing people from the net.

Don't worry about a hand shake. I've welcomed people of all types to try things in a much more serious venue from Taiji grandmasters, Aikido 6 th dans, BJJers to Navy boxers, stick fighting to knives. Its a bit of a different spin on internals and what they can deliver than wrist grabs.

I agree about the debate...ending in person. It's why I wrote:
That upon meeting, for some strange reason all the trouble and the self-confidence in what people thought they knew and were willing to debate-goes right out the window and the exchange becomes respectful and friendly and the work can begin. No more debate.
It's why I also encourage people to go feel anyone and everyone claiming to know this stuff. Get around and feel. Both the depth, and the ability to test these people and their students brings a fresh look to the subject. You need to figure out how you can best train and learn for your own progess.

Come on up if you'd like. Ya might enjoy my shoulder "bump" as well.
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Old 09-19-2008, 04:29 PM   #7
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Speaking of training, instead of the eclectic approaches you may get from Ark, Mike or me, if you are interested in a more traditional arts specific approach with power look up Toby and Howard at the Aikiweb expo.
Ask Howard to hit you.
Try and throw Toby.
Write back what you found
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:17 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Speaking of training, instead of the eclectic approaches you may get from Ark, Mike or me, if you are interested in a more traditional arts specific approach with power look up Toby and Howard at the Aikiweb expo.
Ask Howard to hit you.
Try and throw Toby.
Write back what you found
I don't know Toby or Howard, but I'm satisfied that Dan has some degree of jin skills from what he's written, Rob John has some degree of jin skills from what he's written, Mark Murray is working on things (from vids, etc., that he's posting), and so on. I've seen what Ushiro does and what others in the Aikido or related community have done. But the point I'd make is that if someone has something that they're contributing to the public community, for instance if they're "showing things" at seminars, I'd feel better if they'd post more on "how-to's". If they can't post to the public, then my assumption is that they're somehow "prohibited" from disclosing what they know to outsiders, so how much they would actually teach of these specific skills at a workshop comes into question.

In other words, I'd be happier if I could "get a taste" from some public discussion of simple basics rather than just a "go see" recommendation. The forums are a better clearing house, in my opinion, of what people actually understand when I can see what they can verbalize about even simple basics. If some one is willing to show "the public" outside of their koryu, etc., at a workshop, surely they can show "the public" a taste on the internet?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:03 PM   #9
Allen Beebe
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I don't know Toby or Howard, but I'm satisfied that Dan has some degree of jin skills from what he's written, Rob John has some degree of jin skills from what he's written, Mark Murray is working on things (from vids, etc., that he's posting), and so on. I've seen what Ushiro does and what others in the Aikido or related community have done.
Well, that is something. And I suppose Dan is "satisfied" that Toby and Howard have "some degree" of skills based on his recommendation.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But the point I'd make is that if someone has something that they're contributing to the public community, for instance if they're "showing things" at seminars, I'd feel better if they'd post more on "how-to's".
Yes, but how does your "feel[ing] better" concern others? I can see how a plug from someone generally recognized by others (who have felt them) could benefit a seminar, but it sounds as though you think that they *require* some form of recognition from some "authority" to allow themselves to be experienced. This doesn't seem to reflect the realism that you have conveyed in your most recent posts nor does it seem fair.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If they can't post to the public, then my assumption is that they're somehow "prohibited" from disclosing what they know to outsiders, so how much they would actually teach of these specific skills at a workshop comes into question.
This reasoning holds true if they "can't" post to the public. It doesn't hold true if they simply "don't" post to the public. Furthermore, George Ledyard has felt you, Ushiro Kenji, Ark Aizawa, Rob John, and Howard and Toby, and obviously feels training (and teaching) with both Howard (repeatedly) and Toby is beneficial.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In other words, I'd be happier if I could "get a taste" from some public discussion of simple basics rather than just a "go see" recommendation.
So I'm guessing I won't be seeing you there Mike. Too bad. I'd still like to see you in the future though!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The forums are a better clearing house, in my opinion, of what people actually understand when I can see what they can verbalize about even simple basics.
This may be more true of you than of others though.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If some one is willing to show "the public" outside of their koryu, etc., at a workshop, surely they can show "the public" a taste on the internet?
Once again, "can show" and "choose to show" are two different things.

These guys probably don't feel like they have anything to prove to us any more than a Chen family member probably feels compelled to verbally vet themselves on the boards.

If there are doubts, folks can go out and feel for themselves. No?

That being said, I am grateful for those that do share as much as they choose to. (Even though the sharing is rather restricted compared to all that they COULD share wouldn't you agree? Everyone draws a line somewhere.)

All the best,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:17 PM   #10
Cady Goldfield
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd be happier if I could "get a taste" from some public discussion of simple basics rather than just a "go see" recommendation. The forums are a better clearing house, in my opinion, of what people actually understand when I can see what they can verbalize about even simple basics. If some one is willing to show "the public" outside of their koryu, etc., at a workshop, surely they can show "the public" a taste on the internet?
Dang it, Mike, you know darned well that IHTBF.
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:28 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Dang it, Mike, you know darned well that IHTBF.
Actually, I know darned well that after you've felt it and used that to learn it well enough to teach it, you should be able to communicate the basics with people who also know how to do it. I have copies of Chinese and Japanese stuff that's very clear to anyone who already knows "it". What I'm saying is that I'd like to get a little reassurance from some people other than just Dan, Rob, etc., that they know how to do it. If I get the impression that they really know how to do these things *and* they're actually teaching those things, I'll also be on the bandwagon recommending them. Fairly simple, honest idea, IMO.

Best.

Mike
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:40 PM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Well, that is something. And I suppose Dan is "satisfied" that Toby and Howard have "some degree" of skills based on his recommendation.

Yes, but how does your "feel[ing] better" concern others? I can see how a plug from someone generally recognized by others (who have felt them) could benefit a seminar, but it sounds as though you think that they *require* some form of recognition from some "authority" to allow themselves to be experienced. This doesn't seem to reflect the realism that you have conveyed in your most recent posts nor does it seem fair.

This reasoning holds true if they "can't" post to the public. It doesn't hold true if they simply "don't" post to the public. Furthermore, George Ledyard has felt you, Ushiro Kenji, Ark Aizawa, Rob John, and Howard and Toby, and obviously feels training (and teaching) with both Howard (repeatedly) and Toby is beneficial.

So I'm guessing I won't be seeing you there Mike. Too bad. I'd still like to see you in the future though!

This may be more true of you than of others though.

Once again, "can show" and "choose to show" are two different things.

These guys probably don't feel like they have anything to prove to us any more than a Chen family member probably feels compelled to verbally vet themselves on the boards.

If there are doubts, folks can go out and feel for themselves. No?

That being said, I am grateful for those that do share as much as they choose to. (Even though the sharing is rather restricted compared to all that they COULD share wouldn't you agree? Everyone draws a line somewhere.)

All the best,
Allen
Well, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, Allen. Each to his own. I simply stated my opinion that people who "know" stuff well enough should be able to at least express how to do them, even if at a basic level. Your opinion may differ.

As has been noted before, the people who have at least some basic knowledge of the basic skills (not who is "very powerful".. a different topic entirely) seem to have no problem with at least a very basic dialogue. It's the basic dialogue that I look for before I start spending time and money to go check out the "just in case" stuff. I hope you'll allow me to think that there should be some indicator other than just friendly recommendations?

What compounds the problem is the number of people who "already do this stuff"... but as Dan and others have pointed out, this doesn't always turn out to be true when the rubber meets the road. What I'm suggesting is that there were an awful lot of discussions on this and other forums where a few simple words would have been enough to indicate who really "already knew this stuff" and who didn't. One of the big questions, and a valid one given the lack of dialogue over the last few years, is who really "knows this stuff" and who doesn't. Bear in mind that I think a lot of thought should be given to making sure the same problems of the past don't just slip in under new guises. Don't you think that's a good idea?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-19-2008, 07:47 PM   #13
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of the big questions, and a valid one given the lack of dialogue over the last few years, is who really "knows this stuff" and who doesn't.
That's what I've been asking for Mike. A 'short' list if you will.
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:02 PM   #14
Cady Goldfield
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, I know darned well that after you've felt it and used that to learn it well enough to teach it, you should be able to communicate the basics with people who also know how to do it. I have copies of Chinese and Japanese stuff that's very clear to anyone who already knows "it". What I'm saying is that I'd like to get a little reassurance from some people other than just Dan, Rob, etc., that they know how to do it. If I get the impression that they really know how to do these things *and* they're actually teaching those things, I'll also be on the bandwagon recommending them. Fairly simple, honest idea, IMO.

Best.

Mike
That would be making the assumption that there are more than just a handful of men out there who both can do and teach the stuff and who participate on the Internet.

We can be pretty confident, at this point, that there are more than a few people out there who are capable and are training and teaching, particularly some of the old gents in CIMA; but, I have a sneaking suspicion that the number of adepts that also post on Internet forums like this one is limited pretty much to what you see here and maybe a couple other MA bulletin boards.

So, don't hold your breath waiting to hear reassurance, or anything other than the song of crickets, from anyone besides you and the short list you just ticked off, on an Internet forum. At least, not until Rob Liberti hits his stride in a couple of years. Though he probably would just say that IHTBF.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:29 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
So, don't hold your breath waiting to hear reassurance, or anything other than the song of crickets, from anyone besides you and the short list you just ticked off, on an Internet forum. At least, not until Rob Liberti hits his stride in a couple of years. Though he probably would just say that IHTBF.
Well, I'm not holding my breath for anything, Cady. I simply stated my opinion that someone who really knows these things and is directly or indirectly making the claim to know something and teach something... they should be able to indicate something verbally in all of these discussions that focus on the specific topic, don't you think?

And I'll say it again. I think that a bit of caution should be taken to be sure that we don't open the gate to the corral and then walk right back into the same old corral again. People being what they are, and so forth.

But again, each to his own opinion. I'm satisfied that a sufficient first step has been taken. I don't see any need to spend a lot of energy discussing the details.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:26 PM   #16
Allen Beebe
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I simply stated my opinion that people who "know" stuff well enough should be able to at least express how to do them, even if at a basic level. Your opinion may differ.
I agree completely. It seems to me that one should especially be able to expect such an ability from those that claim to teach.

Where it seems we differ (and of course you are entitled to your opinion and to express your opinion, I'm often glad that you do) is that I don't necessarily expect all individuals that 'can do' and 'can teach' to necessarily do so in the place and manner of my choosing. Would I like them to? Sure! Do I expect them to? No.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As has been noted before, the people who have at least some basic knowledge of the basic skills (not who is "very powerful".. a different topic entirely) seem to have no problem with at least a very basic dialogue.
Sure. And some folks just choose different venues for that dialogue.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's the basic dialogue that I look for before I start spending time and money to go check out the "just in case" stuff.
I can see where this is very reasonable especially for you.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I hope you'll allow me to think that there should be some indicator other than just friendly recommendations?
Of course. However, I'll bet that if you received a "friendly recommendation" from someone you know knows this stuff and trusted, that would be good enough.

How about all the folks that can't recognize the tell tale signs of the "basic dialogue?" You can. But many others can't. Are they to take it on faith that all the dialogs on these boards are reflective of internal structure reality? I think you agree with me that that is inadvisable. So what do folks do to judge who to listen to? Take a friendly recommendation? Yes, at times. And that friendly recommendation is consistently, "Go out and feel it." Go out and feel it is pretty much the "mantra" of these boards.

It seems to me that people are left to go do what you and many others have done for years . . . go out and feel, and feel some more, until they have a basis of comparison and experience. Once that is established, then they can get pickier. And even then, like you, they should probably remain cautiously open to "unknowns."

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What compounds the problem is the number of people who "already do this stuff"... but as Dan and others have pointed out, this doesn't always turn out to be true when the rubber meets the road.
Indeed. "The rubber meets the road" when there is the opportunity for physical contact though.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What I'm suggesting is that there were an awful lot of discussions on this and other forums where a few simple words would have been enough to indicate who really "already knew this stuff" and who didn't.
Indeed. But all of the dialog seems to indicate that dialog alone just doesn't cut it for those that don't know what to look for.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of the big questions, and a valid one given the lack of dialogue over the last few years, is who really "knows this stuff" and who doesn't.
Well that raises another problem too doesn't it, one that you have expressed before? With a modicum on intelligence and a fair amount of reading one could possibly portray themselves as knowing more (the basic dialog) than they really are cracked up to be . . . when the rubber meet the road. This too is another argument, your argument actually, for IHTBF.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Bear in mind that I think a lot of thought should be given to making sure the same problems of the past don't just slip in under new guises. Don't you think that's a good idea?
Yes I do. I also agree with you when you posted this:

"It's a matter of 'you pays your money you takes your choice'.... hit or miss and you have to be careful. The full range of skills is bigger than most people think, so some caution is needed.

All that being said, I don't think there's any real way to stop every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has even some bit skills (or thinks he does) from getting out there and teaching before his time. It's just human nature and it's going to happen. The important thing, in my opinion, is to get the basics out there so that the die-off of the core skills doesn't happen again. Beyond that I wouldn't get too excited about it because on the whole it's an occasion for satisfaction that something that went wrong is (maybe) going to be put right for some of this generation and the next generation. So what if the basics get spread, sometimes incorrectly or incompletely? In that case, it's caveat emptor and it's certainly a lot better situation than we've had up until now. And no matter who thinks they're good now and have "got it", there's going to be someone(s) better in the next generation. That's a good thing."

BTW, the advertisement for the seminar states:

These three instructors from three different lineages will share their budo experience during this three-day workshop. They will present different but compatible approaches to the physical application of techniques and principles from their arts of Aikido, Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai, and Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu.

No mention is made of the teaching of "IT" specifically so this entire discussion may just be pointless!

Regards,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:36 PM   #17
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Well, in the past, telling me that you have a method of doing aikido that is better than the norm wouldn't get my attention too much because frankly I felt from a bit of experience that did too.

Mike wrote about the jo trick. I know it was a clever way to get people thinking about stuff Osensei could do that his students couldn't, but unfortunately it reinforced the idea that he was more of a Michael Jordan type and that we could never get to THAT degree because we are the normal people.

I didn't read about aiki/internal skills giving people the ability to deliver force without committing weight. I read hints that described in some minimal detail about stability with no bracing. I never read too much detail about rooting. Just that people could do it. I think we all have met IMA types who had some degree of impressive power but couldn't seem to deliver it while moving around that much. You could almost imagine them sort of stuck in a flower pot. Just don't go near that flower pot and you'll be all right. I read ideas about it being the lifeblood of all your movements but there wasn't much description for it other than some talk about walking while someone pushed on your body. Since I never experienced anyone moving around staying so connected super connected - other than some of the better aikido folks as a matter of fact - I just dismissed that idea a bit more than I wish I had. It just seemed like some claim that was likely to be a bit more of an exaggeration and maybe a bit due to a suspected limited experience by the person making the claims.

I also never read about anyone making the basic skills learn-able in a short time like 2-4 or 5 years. Everyone else's paths seemed to be on the 25-30 year path to get to some degree of intermediate. In fact, Mike didn't have any active students at the time I was reading a lot of what he was writing a few years back. So it seemed like it wasn't very available...

This is one of the main reasons why I am writing so much, I just felt that the things that actually got my attention would be a bit more interesting to other aikido people than a lot of the stuff I had read about it in the past.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-19-2008 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:44 PM   #18
Allen Beebe
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
This is one of the main reasons why I am writing so much, I just felt that the things that actually got my attention would be a bit more interesting to other aikido people than a lot of the stuff I had read about it in the past.
And you're getting others to share, and share more, too. And you are an Aikido(tm) guy on an Aikido(tm) board. You go Rob!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:45 PM   #19
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
[[snipsky]] this entire discussion may just be pointless!
Very true!!!

However, I think the fact that I am throwing out cautions! may be helpful as a thinking exercise for the people that aren't sure, don't you?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:50 PM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
This is one of the main reasons why I am writing so much,
Rob, the more you write, the more you think out loud and in your head, the more you are challenged to think through the actual processes, the better you will be. Believe me. There is a very strong and compelling reason to share these discussions out loud, for everyone involved. The people who sit and guard their two silver quarters zealously will never be able to play the $100-tables at the casino.

Mike
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:16 PM   #21
Allen Beebe
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Very true!!!

However, I think the fact that I am throwing out cautions! may be helpful as a thinking exercise for the people that aren't sure, don't you?

Regards,

Mike
I should think that caution would be implicitly called for in any activity claiming to be "martial," and "Caveat Emptor" is an appropriate and wise motto. (especially where what I think is concerned!!)

Best,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:29 AM   #22
DH
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

In regards to Howard and Toby:
They are both stand-up guys in their teaching and representing their arts. However, like it or not, agree or not. They are restricted and very unlikely to just show everything to everyone who decides to show up. That's just the way traditional arts are.
It doesn't mean they won't teach- if you're a signed up student. Demo's are a show and ask questions sort of thing, so go and ask questions.
Since they will show some things in public- people who have felt various internal guys and some ICMA masters can go feel these guys, ask questions and make some decisions. Then, more importantly feel their students.
Both arts, Daito ryu and Shindo Yoshin ryu have internal components. Fortunately or unfortunately they will not be let out or taught except to trusted students. As Allen stated there is no compelling reason to share. But Mike is also correct-probably more than he realizes- in that some in the traditional arts, (I happen to know a few who have argued with him) really haven't a clue-they just think they do. They argue from a point of being disenfranchised from within their own arts they are defending-and they don't even know it. It's sad to watch.

As I continually say to people who have felt internal power: "Go and feel various teachers of the traditional arts and decide." Talking about it simply won't due. Their understanding is in their hands and their ability or willingness to help you may best be expressed in the hands of their students. Do it, if only to disclude them and write them off in your search.

Internal power
There is a truth behind these arts. It is a defining one. Wthin the discussions we have lost sight of the fact that it being revealed. This is GREAT NEWS.
IMO most people out there teaching shouldn't be. And the WOW factor that captured students for years is going to change as the potential students get educated about the real power behind these Asian arts. People may get somewhat discouraged about these discussions because by their nature they do disclude many fine people. In the end they will disclude by natural selection teachers who have no real understanding of the Asian arts. But the upside is what really should be our focus.
These discussion are revealing and puttig on display teachers who have real skills and a genuine understanding of the true power in the Asian arts-to whatever degree it is in their art. Highlighting these useful sources of information and men who at least have some of these skills is a POSITVE thing, that many here have benefited from. Some have come here and stated it was the defining moment in their entire martial art career. So while it is ruffling some feathers, it's also creating the most beneficial move in understanding the Asian arts arts that I have ever seen.

I know that post was sort of all over the place. I'm in a rush to go train myself and with who? Men from about eight different arts, many of whom are teachers. Ask them if they feel its positive or negative?

And all of them found out about internal training and found me through aikiweb
I think Jun should charge admission
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/payments.php
See ya

Last edited by DH : 09-20-2008 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:02 AM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In regards to Howard and Toby:
They are both stand-up guys in their teaching and representing their arts. However, like it or not, agree or not. They are restricted and very unlikely to just show everything to everyone who decides to show up. That's just the way traditional arts are.
It doesn't mean they won't teach- if you're a signed up student. Demo's are a show and ask questions sort of thing, so go and ask questions.
Since they will show some things in public- people who have felt various internal guys and some ICMA masters can go feel these guys, ask questions and make some decisions. Then, more importantly feel their students.
Both arts, Daito ryu and Shindo Yoshin ryu have internal components. Fortunately or unfortunately they will not be let out or taught except to trusted students. As Allen stated there is no compelling reason to share. But Mike is also correct-probably more than he realizes- in that some in the traditional arts, (I happen to know a few who have argued with him) really haven't a clue-they just think they do. They argue from a point of being disenfranchised from within their own arts they are defending-and they don't even know it. It's sad to watch.
I think the techniques and strategies within any given martial-art are fair game for "secrecy". My comments about openness have never been related to the depths of any art or even specific training methods. I meant simply the basics. The basics are already out there... but the trick is that these are far more complex subjects than they appear on the surface. My general point is more along the lines of "why should I go study the 'depths' with someone when I'm not sure he even knows the basics?".

And of course I'm not a dummy... I hear the reasoning. But I then say to myself, why should I share anything on a public forum (like the many how-to's, diagrams, etc.) with someone who is not sharing back in return? In most cases, over many years of experience, I've found what we already know... most people don't know more than a few bits and pieces. So let's look at it from the perspective than an open discussion is actually a bonus for them, in most regards. If nothing else they gain in general knowledge which contributes to their own abilities and teaching curriculum, benefits their students, and so on. That's the essence of my position.

On the other hand, there are many people who don't know much but who grab what bits and pieces they can, cobble it together, and use it to reinforce their own power/position as a teacher with special knowledge. In that case an open forum actually works to the detriment of many well-meaning students because the 'teacher' is able to grab buzz-terms, etc., and parade them in class as his own intrinsic knowledge. Which is why we're careful about who gets onto the QiJin forum, in a nutshell. We don't want to contribute to the delinquency of a minor.
Quote:
And all of them found out about internal training and found me through aikiweb.
BTW, I'm a little uncomfortable with this idea of identifying people who come to study or even implying such in public. We all start from ignorance and make our way up the ladder from there. I don't know any westerner who is in such a position that they're not closer to the bottom of the ladder than the top, so my personal opinion is that testifying for Jesus is probably a bit out of place at this early stage in reinstating these skills in various Asian martial-arts.

Granted it's a momentous issue, these basics that belong in Aikido, but let's remember that Tohei attempted to say exactly the same thing almost 40 years ago. Part of the failure of Tohei's training approach had to do with personality and politics. Maybe we'll be more successful this time if we leave the personality and politics out?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 09-20-2008 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:54 AM   #24
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

I'm reading this thread after hearing about it from a fellow member at training, and after some chatting about training and how our minds work.

I think I can see that "IHTBF" is simply an acknowledgement that "reasoning" and "reality" are two different things. If one wants to experience reality, and then reason about future reality, then IHTBF.

In the same manner, practice without explanations and reasoning serves this purpose: while simultaneously the person needs to feel the reality---because the objective is a very deep realization of the body ("ninshiki" in Japanese).

By this process, both a body frame and a sensory network are built in conjunction with one another, giving the tools whereby reality can be experienced and "blended" with instantaneously, without a gap caused by reasoning (which only serves to fill the void of uncertainty caused by an inability to adapt to reality while experiencing it, without making any productive contribution).

Reasoning has its uses, particularly in areas which are not directly experiencable, as has been pointed out here with examples of magnetic fields, etc. This avoids the point that reasoning is not useful in the situations in which we are find it necessary to apply our bujutsu.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:20 PM   #25
rob_liberti
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Re: On Talking About Internal Training

Yes, IHTBF because until you do, reasoning is generally not willing to throw several things you normally consider to be "facts" out of the window. As I mentioned before, feeling that someone is not vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel is different from reading about it. Feeling that someone can deliver force without committing weight is another of those types of experiences that would be remarkably harder to swallow by reading about it.

As far as what I think I'm actually doing, I'm not volunteering that level or degree of information to the uninitiated yet. I'm simply not good enough to do it properly and I'm not sure that those basics SHOULD be described in a public forum. Seems like a pandora's box type of thing to me. Just because there are bigger weapons than knifes, I still wouldn't feel right about giving them indiscriminately away especially if there were only a few sources for them...

Rob
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