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Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza
by John Driscoll
09-12-2008
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

BACKGROUND:

In creating the technical body of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba adopted the majority of techniques forming the physical basis of his art from Daito-ryu. Ueshiba then changed the techniques to conform to his vision for Aikido, as a martial art and a way of peace. In modifying the Daito-ryu techniques, Ueshiba relied heavily on his philosophical and spiritual beliefs for guidance, as well as his other studies including sword.

Examining the Daito-ryu techniques adopted and adapted by Ueshiba will provide at least two benefits for the Aikido student. First, it will provide a greater appreciation of the brilliance displayed by Ueshiba in creating Aikido, building upon the genius of Sokaku Takeda. Second, the Aikido student will develop a better understanding of the technical origins of the art and the value of the changes made by Ueshiba.

There have been a variety of articles comparing and contrasting in general the techniques of Aikido and Daito-ryu, but I have been unable to find a correlation of the techniques forming the technical body of these arts. This article provides such a correlation.

DEVELOPING A CORRELATION OF AIKIDO AND DAITO-RYU TECHNIQUES:

In beginning the research to develop a correlation of Aikido and Daito-ryu techniques, I decided to use readily available, commercial reference material for the study. For simplicity, Aikido is represented by techniques as taught under traditions affiliated with the Aikikai, with Daito-ryu represented by the lineage of Tokumine Takeda, referred to as Daito-ryu Aikibudo. The selections do not imply any qualitative judgment with respect to the other branches of each art; rather the selections reflect the relative availability of reference material. I have also included a chart correlating Tomiki-ryu atemi waza and Daito-ryu techniques.

The following were used as primary reference material for Aikido techniques.
Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti

AIKIDO by Kisshomaru Ueshiba

Best Aikido, The Fundamentals by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Moriteru Ueshiba

The Aikido Master Course, Best Aikido 2 by Moriteru Ueshiba.

Takemusu Aikido, Volumes 1 -6, and Takemusu Aikido Special Edition: Commentary on Budo by Morihiro Saito
The following were used as primary reference material for Daito-ryu techniques.
Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo by Katsuyuki Kondo

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu (Selected Techniques from Hiden Mokuroku -- Ikkajo through Gokajo, and Goshin no Te) (DVD)

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Ikkajo -- Part 1 (DVD)

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Ikkajo -- Part 2 (DVD)

Daito-Ryu Aikibudo, History and Technique by Antonino Certa

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 1 (Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo and Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo) (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 2 (Hiden Mokuroku Sankajo) (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 3 (Hiden Mokuroku Yonkajo and Hiden Mokuroku Gokajo) (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo Uragata Volume 1 (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo Uragata Volume 2 (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo Uragata Volume 1 (DVD)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo Uragata Volume 2 (DVD)
I first compiled a list of all techniques contained in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, in order of appearance, and then crosschecked the list against the remaining Aikido reference material. The crosscheck resulted in the addition of several Aikido techniques to the charts, which are not included in Ratti and Westbrook's work.

A similar listing was made of all techniques contained in the Daito-ryu reference material. Emphasis was placed upon identifying the techniques contained in the Daito-ryu Hiden Mokuroku.

After compiling the list of Aikido techniques, I examined the Daito-ryu reference material to identify the techniques that appear related to each of the Aikido techniques. I then collated the results of the reviews.

NOTES ON TECHNIQUES:


I have identified the Daito-ryu techniques of Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, and Dakijime Dori as corresponding to both Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo and Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo. The correspondence is based upon comments by Antonino Certa, an Aikido 4th Dan and Daito-ryu Shihan, and Morihiro Saito, an Aikido 9th Dan. Antonino Certa identified Ippondori, Gyaku Udedori, and similar techniques in the Ikkajo series of Daito-ryu as being the same as Ikkyo of Aikido.1 Morihiro Saito has noted the difference between Ikkyo Omote and Nikyo Omote, when tori grips the back of uke's hand as in Katate Dori Ikkyo Omote, is the application of Nikyo pressure.2 Similar comments have been made by other Aikido shihan, as oral instruction. Therefore, I have identified Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, and Dakijime Dori as related to both Aikido techniques.

I have identified the Daito-ryu techniques of Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi, and Obi Otsohi of the Ikkajo series and Suso Barai of the Nikajo series as related to Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage) based upon the comments of Antonino Certa.3 I have also shown the Daito-ryu Ikkajo series techniques of Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, and Ryo Hiji Gaeshi as related to Gedan Ate of Tomiki-ryu, due to the obvious correspondence to the Tomiki Ryu techniques.

Based upon the comments of Tokumine Takeda, Tenchi Nage of Aikido is identified as being a technique contained in the Aiki Nage series of Daito-ryu.4

I have identified Koshinage of Aikido as related to Koshiguruma, a technique appearing in the Ikkajo, Nikajo and Nikajo Uragata series of Daito-ryu, based upon the statement of Tokumine Takeda.5 For reasons detailed in "Of Oak Leaves, Blind Hogs, and an Acorn, the Origin of O'Sensei's Koshi Nage," I believe Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu was the source of Ueshiba's Koshinage, not Daito-ryu. I do see Koshiguruma and several other techniques contained in the Daito-ryu Hiden Mokuroku, as well as Judo Koshi Waza, as probable sources of techniques incorporated into Aikido as koshi nage as the art evolved.

Likewise, I have identified Koshinage of Aikido as related to Seoi Nage due to the comments of Antonino Certa.6 I have also identified Daito-ryu Sankajo technique of Ganseki Otoshi related to Koshi Nage of Aikido, because of its technical commonality with Seoi Nage and Koshiguruma of the Nikajo series.

Based upon the comment of Katsuyuki Kondo, I have identified Gokyo of Aikido as derived from an unidentified technique included in the Gokajo series.7 It is interesting to note, Morihei Ueshiba identifies the technique in BUDO as a variant of Dai Ippo, also known as Ikkyo.

The Kataguruma demonstrated on the referenced DVD prepared under the direction of Kondo Sensei appears to be technically closer to Projection 12 in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, than the Kataguruma demonstrated on the DVD of Kato Sensei.

The review of the public demonstrations featuring Kondo, included on Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, revealed techniques identical to Projection No. 3 -- Kaiten Nage, Projection No. 8 -- Kokyu Nage, Projection No. 22 -- Kokyu Nage, and Projection No. 28 -- Aiki Nage, as well as Ushiro Ate from Tomiki Ryu Aikido. I suspect these techniques are from the Aiki Nage series, and have identified them that way.

I have included all arm locks taught in Aikido using pressure to hyperextend the elbow joint under the general heading of Ude Hishigi. The most common version of the elbow joint lock is Ude Hishigi Waki Gatame, also referred to as Rokkyo, Hiji Gime and Hiji Shime.

Although not appearing in either Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere or the books by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Moriteru Ueshiba, I have included under the Aikido Immobilizations a technique referred to in the Iwama tradition of Aikido as Nanakyo -- Hiji Gatame, as numerous senior Aikido instructors teach the technique as a kokyu nage and as a knife defense. For similar reasons, I have also included Kubi Nage in the charts, as numerous senior Aikido instructors teach the technique as a kokyu nage.

Lastly, I did not list those Daito-ryu Ikkajo Uragata and Nikajo Uragata techniques, which have no substantive difference from the corresponding technique in the Hiden Mokuroku.

CORRELATION OF AIKIDO AND DAITO-RYU TECHNIQUES

How to Read the Correlation:

The first entry is the reference for the technique as it appears in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. The second entry is the term used by the Aikikai to identify the technique. Any parenthetical entry provides other terms in common use to describe the technique within the Aikido community.

The indented listing, appearing below the Aikido technique provides the related Daito-ryu techniques, grouped by series (Ikkajo, Nikajo, etc.), within the Hiden Mokuroku. (Note: A number of Aikido techniques do not appear to have a related technique within the Hiden Mokuroku.)

IMMOBILIZATIONS

Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo (Ude Osae, Oshi Taoshi) ≈
Ikkajo: Ippondori, Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, Dakijime Dori, Nukite Dori
Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo (Kote Mawashi) ≈
Ikkajo: Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, Dakijime Dori, Nukite Dori
Nikajo: Kote Zume, Shuto Zume, Gyaku Gote, Kamate Zume
Sankajo: Soto Gote, Uchi Ude Gaeshi
Yonkajo: Temakura Zume
Ikkajo Uragata: Tachi Eri Dori
Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo (Kote Hineri) ≈
Nikajo: Konoha Gaeshi, Irimi Zume
Sankajo: Tsuri Otoshi, Maki Zume, Kataha Gaeshi, Waki Zume, Maki Zume Otoshi, Kiriha
Yonkajo: Waki Zume Otoshi
Gokajo: Koban Gaeshi
Immobilization No. 4 -- Yonkyo (Tekubi Osae) ≈
Sankyo: Gassho Dori
Yonkajo: Ura Gote, Uchi Gote
Immobilization No. 5 -- Gokyo (Ude Nobashi) ≈
Gokajo (See the explanation in Notes On Techniques.)
Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage (Tenkai Kote Gaeshi) ≈
Ikkajo: Shiho Nage (Omote & Ura), Irimi Nage, Hanmi Nage
Sankajo: Shiho Nage (Omote & Ura), Ippon Katsugi
Yonkajo: Kasumi Nage
Ikkajo Uragata: Shiho Nage
Nikajo Uragata: Kote Gaeshi
Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi ≈
Ikkajo: Kote Gaeshi
Nikajo: Kote Gaeshi
Sankajo: Ude Gaeshi, Kobushi Gaeshi
Ikkajo Uragata: Kote Gaeshi
Ude Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame, Hara Gatame) ≈
Nikajo: Hiji Kujiki, Kataha Dori
Sankajo: Shichiri Biki, Kakae Kujiki, Hiji Kujiki, Waki Garami, Waki Kujiki
Yonkajo: Waki Dori Omote, Waki Dori Ura
Gokajo: Makikomi Kujiki, Enma
Ikkajo Uragata: Ippondori
Nanakyo (Hiji Gatame) ≈
Sankajo: Te Makura
PROJECTIONS

Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage) ≈
Nikajo: Gyaku Dasuki
Ikkajo Uragata: Ryo Kata Hineri
Nikajo Uragata: Gyaku Dasuki
Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage) ≈
Ikkajo: Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi, Obi Otsohi
Nikajo: Suso Barai
Ikkajo Uragata: Kirikaeshi
Nikajo Uragata: Seoi Nage
Projection No. 3 -- Kaiten-Nage ≈
Aiki Nage*
Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage ≈
Ikkajo: Koshiguruma
Nikajo: Koshiguruma, Seoi Nage
Sankajo: Ganseki Otoshi
Nikajo Uragata: Koshiguruma
Projection No. 5 -- Aiki-Otoshi (Sukui Nage) ≈
Nikajo: Sukui Nage
Projection No. 6 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
Ikkajo: Shime Gaeshi
Aiki Nage*
Projection No. 7 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 8 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 9 -- Tenchi-Nage ≈
Aiki Nage*
Projection No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi Otoshi ≈
Ikkajo: Karuma Daoshi, Ura Otoshi
Nikajo: Hiji Kujiki (Idori)
Yonkajo: Ura Otoshi
Ikkajo Uragata: Ura Otoshi
Projection No. 10 Attack No. 5 -- Hiji Ate ≈
Sankajo: Kata Ude Nage
Yonkajo: Irichigai
Nikajo Uragata: Tsuki Taoshi
Projection No. 12 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
Nikajo: Kata Guruma
Yonkajo: Senryu
Projection No. 13 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 14 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
Ikkajo Uragata: Kata Otoshi
Projection No. 15 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 16 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 17 -- Juji-Garami (Juji Nage) ≈
Ikkajo: Karami Nage
Sankajo: Karami Zume
Yonkajo: Daruma Gaeshi
Projection No. 18 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 19 (Kibisu Gaeshi) ≈
Nikajo: Suso Dori
Sankajo: Ashijime
Projection No. 20 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 21 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 22 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
Aiki Nage*
Projection No. 23 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 24 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
Ikkajo: Izori
Yonkajo: Izori
Projection No. 25 -- Kokyu Nage (Omote) ≈
Nikajo: Hiki Otoshi
Projection No. 26 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 27 -- Kokyu Nage ≈
No Identifiable Correlation
Projection No. 28 -- Aiki Nage (Sudori) ≈
Aiki Nage*
Kubi Nage (Men Nage) ≈
Nikajo: Kubi Nage, Kubi Hineri
TOMIKI RYU ATEMI WAZA

Shomen Ate ≈
Ryo Eri Dori Ryu no Agito**
Ai Gamae Ate ≈
Nikajo: Tsuki Taoshi, Hiji Kujiki (Idori)
Gyaku Gamae Ate ≈
Ikkajo: Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi
Nikajo: Suso Barai
Ikkajo Uragata: Kirikaeshi
Nikajo Uragata: Seoi Nage
Gedan Ate ≈
Ikkajo: Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi
Ushiro Ate ≈
Aiki Nage*
Notes on Correlations:

Aiki Nage* -- Techniques in the Aiki Nage series have no individual identifiers.

Ryo Eri Dori Ryu no Agito** -- The technique is an applied version of Tomiki Ryu Shomen Ate. While I did not see a technique in Daito-ryu Aikibudo corresponding to Shomen Ate, I did locate one, Ryote Eri Dori Ryu no Agito, in The Hiden Roots of Aikido, Aiki Jujutsu Daito Ryu by Shiro Omiya, and have included it in the chart. Omiya studied Daito-ryu under the instruction of Kozui Tsuruyama, who was a student of Takuma Hisa, who studied with both Ueshiba and Takeda.

CORRELATION OF DAITO-RYU AND AIKIDO TECHNIQUES

How to Read the Correlation:

The first entry identifies the of Daito-ryu techniques, grouped by set (Ikkajo, Nikajo, etc.), within the Hiden Mokuroku, and the Ikkajo and Nikajo Uragata. I have not differentiated Idori, Hanza Handachi, and Tachiai utilizing the same term.

The entry to the right of the equal sign identifies the related Aikido technique. The first entry is the reference for the technique as it appears in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. The second entry is the term used by the Aikikai to identify the technique. Any parenthetical entry provides other terms in common use to describe the technique.

Also, I have included Daito-ryu techniques not contained in the Hiden Mokuroku that appear related to Aikido techniques.

IKKAJO

Ippondori ≈ Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo

Kuruma Daoshi ≈ Projections No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi Otoshi

Gyaku Ude Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo, Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Koshiguruma ≈ Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage

Karami Nage ≈ Projection No. 17 -- Juji Garami

Ura Otoshi ≈ Projections No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi Otoshi

Obi Otoshi ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)

Kirikaeshi ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gedan Ate
Kote Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Shiho Nage (Omote & Ura) ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Shime Gaeshi ≈ Projection No. 6 -- Kokyu Nage

Nukite Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo, Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Hanmi Nage ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Izori ≈ Projection No. 24 -- Kokyu Nage

Irimi Nage ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Tachi Eri Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo, Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Ryote Kata Hineri ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gyaku Gamae Ate
Ryo Hiji Gaeshi ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gyaku Gamae Ate
Dakijime Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 1 -- Ikkyo, Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

(Note: The Idori versions of Hiji Gaeshi, Dakijime, and Hizajime do not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique. The Hanza Handachi and Ushiro technique Kata Otoshi does not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique. The technique Kata Otoshi appearing in the Hanza Handachi and Ushiro groups appears to be the same as Ippon Seoi Otoshi of Kodokan Judo.)

NIKAJO

Gyaku Dasuki ≈ Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage)

Hiki Otoshi ≈ Projection No. 25 -- Kokyu Nage (Omote)

Kubi Nage ≈ Kubi Nage (Men Nage)

Susobarai ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gedan Ate
Seoi Nage ≈ Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage

Shuto Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Kote Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Kataguruma ≈ Projection No. 12 -- Kokyu Nage

Koshiguruma ≈ Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage

Kotezume ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Hiji Kujiki (Idori) ≈ Projections No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi Otoshi, Ai Gamae Ate

Konoha Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Kubi Hineri ≈ Kubi Nage (Men Nage)

Kataha Dori ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Kamate Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Suso Dori ≈ Projection No. 19(Kibisu Gaeshi)

Hiji Kujiki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Irimi Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Tsuki Taoshi ≈ Ai Gamae Ate

Sukui Nage ≈ Projection No. 5 -- Aiki Otoshi

Gyaku Gote ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

(Note: The Tachiai technique Sei Kujiki and the Ushiro technique Kubi Nage do not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique.)

SANKAJO

Tsuri Otoshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Soto Gote ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Maki Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Waki Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Ganseki Otoshi ≈ Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage

Uchi Ude Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Shichiri Biki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Ippon Katsugi ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Shiho Nage ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Te Makura ≈ Nanakyo -- Hiji Gatame

Kobushi Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Kakae Kujiki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Karami Zume ≈ Projection No. 17 -- Juji Garami

Kiriha ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Gasho Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 4 -- Yonkyo (Tekubi Osae)

Hiji Kujiki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Kataha Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Ashi Jime ≈ Projection No. 19 (Kibisu Gaeshi)

Waki Kujiki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Maki Zume Otoshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Ude Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Wakigarami ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Kata Ude Nage ≈ Projection No. 10 Attack No. 5 -- Hiji Ate

(Note: The Tachiai technique Sei Kujiki and the Ushiro technique Kubi Nage do not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique.)

YONKAJO

Ura Gote ≈ Immobilization No. 4 -- Yonkyo

Uchi Gote ≈ Immobilization No. 4 -- Yonkyo

Temakura Zume ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Waki Dori Omote ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Waki Dori Ura ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Irichigai ≈ Projection No. 10 Attack No. 5 -- Hiji Ate

Izori ≈ Projection No. 24 -- Kokyu Nage

Ura Otoshi ≈ Projections No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi Otoshi

Senryu ≈ Projection No. 12 -- Kokyu Nage

Wakizume Otoshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Kasumi Nage Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Daruma Gaeshi ≈ Projection No. 17 -- Juji Garami

(Note: The Yonkajo techniques Kakae Kubi, Tatsumaki, and Hadakjime do not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique.)

GOKAJO

Makikomi Kujiki ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Koban Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 3 -- Sankyo

Enma ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

(Note: The Gokajo techniques Kannuki Zume, Shumoku and Taki Otoshi do not appear to have a comparable Aikido technique. Additionally, I could only locate video of six of the thirteen techniques contained in the Gokajo series.)

IKKAJO URAGATA

Ippondori ≈ Ude-Hishigi (Rokkyo, Hiji Shime, Hiji Gime, Waki Gatame)

Kuruma Daoshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Ura Otoshi ≈ Projections No. 10 and 11 -- Sumi-Otoshi

Kirikaeshi ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gyaku Gamae Ate

Kote Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 7 -- Kote Gaeshi

Shiho Nage ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Tachi Eri Dori ≈ Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo

Ryo Kata Hineri ≈ Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage

Kata Otoshi Projection No. 14 -- Kokyu Nage

NIKAJO URAGATA

Gyaku Dasuki Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage

Seoi Nage ≈ Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage)
Gyaku Gamae Ate

Kote Gaeshi ≈ Immobilization No. 6 -- Shiho Nage

Koshiguruma ≈ Projection No. 4 -- Koshi Nage

Tsuki Taoshi ≈ Projection No. 10 Attack No. 5 -- Hiji Ate

AIKI NAGE ≈
Projection No. 3 -- Kaiten-Nage
Projection No. 6 -- Kokyu Nage
Projection No. 9 -- Tenchi-Nage

Projection No. 22 -- Kokyu Nage
Projection No. 28 -- Aiki Nage (Sudori)
Shomen Ate (Tomiki Ryu)
(Note: Techniques in the Aiki Nage series have no individual identifier.)

I would anticipate the identification of further correspondence between Daito-ryu techniques and the many Kokyu Nage of Aikido, as catalogued in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, as additional Daito-ryu material becomes available, specifically the Aiki Nage series.

As I developed the correlations as a research tool to identify comparable techniques of Aikido and of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, I would welcome input regarding any omission or error.

A Final Observation

It is interesting to note the correlation reveals 97 of the 118 Hiden Mokuroku techniques, approximately 82%, appear in Aikido as either primary techniques or henkawaza.

NOTES

1. Certa, Antonino. Daito-Ryu Aikibudo, History and Technique. (Milano: Luni Editrice.) 71

2. Morihiro Saito, Takemusu Aikido, Volume 1 (Tokyo: Aiki News, 1996) 100, 131.

3. Certa, Antonino. Daito-Ryu Aikibudo, History and Technique. (Milano: Luni Editrice.) 71

4. Pranin, Stanley A. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Tokyo: Aiki News, 1996. 52

5. Pranin, Stanley A. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Tokyo: Aiki News, 1996. 52

6. Certa, Antonino. Daito-Ryu Aikibudo, History and Technique. (Milano: Luni Editrice.) 71

7. Pranin, Stanley A. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Tokyo: Aiki News, 1996. 157

BIBLIOGRAPHY

Certa, Antonino. Daito-Ryu Aikibudo, History and Technique. Milano: Luni Editrice, 2007.

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 1. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited. (Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo and Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 2. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited. (Hiden Mokuroku Sankajo)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku 118 Jo, Volume 3. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited. (Hiden Mokuroku Yonkajo and Hiden Mokuroku Gokajo)

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo Uragata Volume 1. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited.

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo Uragata Volume 2. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited.

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo Uragata Volume 1. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited.

Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-Jutsu Hiden Mokuroku Nikajo Uragata Volume 2. DVD. Tokyo: BAB Japan Company, Limited.

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. DVD. Tokyo: Quest Company, Limited, Japan, 2001.

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Ikkajo -- Part 1. DVD. Aikido Journal, 2005.

Katsuyuki Kondo Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Ikkajo -- Part 2. DVD. Aikido Journal, 2005.

Kondo, Katsuyuki. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo. Tokyo: Aiki News, 2000.

Omiya, Shiro. The Hidden Root of Aikido, Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu. Kodansha International, Ltd., 1998.

Pranin, Stanley A. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. Tokyo: Aiki News, 1996.

Pranin, Stanley A. Aikido Masters. Tokyo: Aiki News, 1993.

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Volume 1. Tokyo, Aiki News, 1994.

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Volume 2. Tokyo, Aiki News, 1996.

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Volume 3. Tokyo, Aiki News, 19966

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Volume 4. Tokyo, Aiki News, 1997.

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Volume 5. Tokyo, Aiki News, 2001.

Saito, Morihiro. Takemusu Aikido Special Edition: Commentary on Budo. Tokyo, Aiki News, 1999.

Shishida, Fumiaki, and Tetsuro Nariyama. Aikido Tradition and the Competitive Edge. Berkeley: Shodokan Publishing USA., 1985.

Ueshiba, Kisshomaru. Aikido. Tokyo: Hozansha Publications Co., Ltd., 1985.

Ueshiba, Kisshomaru, and Moriteru Ueshiba. Best Aikido, The Fundamentals. Tokyo: Kodansha International Ltd., 2002.

Ueshiba, Moriteru. The Aikido Master Course, Best Aikido 2. Tokyo: Kodansha International Ltd., 2003.

Westbrook, Adele, and Oscar Ratti. Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. Boston: Charles E. Tuttle Co., Inc., 1970.
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:45 AM   #2
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Wonderful work, John. It is ironic, however. There has been all sorts of noise, from howls of rage to squeaks of pique regarding the actual relationship of Daito-ryu to aikido. People have expressed a number of strong opinions. And here is fact - and to date, only 92 people have been interested enough to read it!
Yes, being a largely statistical analysis, it's not the most entertaining read. But here you have it. An 82% correlation! Furthermore, what was a revelation to me was that, previously, I thought that Daito-ryu had a vast compendium of techniques, whereas aikido was impoverished with only a few. And as it turns out, Ueshiba (and his successors) seemed to have taken the various separate Daito-ryu kata and ordered them among several "principals" - like the myriads of kokyu-nage.
I would love to see the photos of the Noma Dojo and other pre-war texts similarly broken down.
As we discussed, a massive Excel spreadsheet (heck, it's your time, not mine

Wonderful work. Truly nails the picture up on the wall where it cannot be avoided.
Best

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Old 09-14-2008, 10:04 AM   #3
Keith Larman
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Well, I've read through it 4 times now, so I don't know if it counts mine more than once... Lots to digest here -- fantastic. My biggest problem is needing some reference for some names I'm not familiar with. But that just means buying more books and DVD's... Cool.

I'd like to second the thanks and also suggest I'd love to see a spreadsheet myself.

And as a niggling aside from a statistics geek, I'd be a little careful using the word correlation here. Correlation has a very well defined meaning and if I might suggest it would probably be better to say there is a very strong correspondence. Just a suggestion from the cheap seats.

Regardless, great article. And thank you again.

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Old 09-14-2008, 06:51 PM   #4
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Mr Driscoll,

I second Ellis Amdur's comments, especially about the Noma Dojo and the prewar texts. I can see that you have shown the correspondence between Daito-ryu and modern aikido, as shown from publications readily available. This leads to two questions:

1. What about the two publications supposedly authored by Morihei Ueshiba himself? I mean Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938). I believe that these are readily available in English translation. However, how would you classify them--as DR or Ueshiba-Ha Aiki-budo, or as aikido?

2. You have based your correspondence on named waza. However, since living in Japan I have practised a number of waza without names and I would not want to exclude these for that reason. In fact some of these waza, particularly the combination of locks/pins and throws, might be thought to be closer to DR than some of the modern stuff. One issue here is that O Sensei is known to have used names very rarely and that the names were largely coined by his students, who were trying to make sense of what he was doing.

Of course, these comments/questions in no way diminish the correspondences that you have established: they concern more the vehicle used to make the correspondences/correlations.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 09-14-2008, 07:28 PM   #5
Allen Beebe
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Bravo. A very cool study.

I second what Peter said, but I'm not exactly sure how you'd pull it off. (Pull of both #1 and especially [and possibly more importantly] #2)

Thanks again,

Allen

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Old 09-14-2008, 08:38 PM   #6
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I'd like to second the thanks and also suggest I'd love to see a spreadsheet myself.

And as a niggling aside from a statistics geek, I'd be a little careful using the word correlation here. Correlation has a very well defined meaning and if I might suggest it would probably be better to say there is a very strong correspondence. Just a suggestion from the cheap seats.

Regardless, great article. And thank you again.
Ditto, and thanks. As a geek, but only an end-user of statistics, from experience it pays to note that making an argument from similarity is fraught with danger. Human DNA shows only a 1.6 % genetic divergence from Bonobo DNA. What is different is vastly more important in determining the result than what is similar. A difference of 18 % is an order of magnitude larger, roughly. a fifth whittled out. A study might be of value in focusing on what O Sensei left out, and more particularly -- WHY? in each case. That may be of more use than piling up more evidence of wholly expected similarities in cousin arts. Although likely you have to do the one to do the other

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:49 PM   #7
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Good work. As an instructor who refers to the more "classical" execution of Aiki waza to provide insight into the rationale behind more "modern" waza, your listing of correlations is of great interest to me.

It is good to have some names to place alongside the similar waza seen between DR and modern Aikido. Now all we need to do is supplement your list with illustrative video to assist in the juxtaposition of similar DR and Aikido waza.

Best.
LC

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Old 09-15-2008, 08:19 AM   #8
Amir Krause
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Hi

Sounds like a lot of work.
Could you explain what do you mean by two techniques correlating?

As you know, in M.A. the devil is in the details, a slightly different placing of palm or fingers, or a slight differnece in power dirction could create a much larger difference in effect. Thus, I wonder exactly what does this correlation mean.

Amir
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:22 PM   #9
John Driscoll
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Sincere thanks to all who have taken time to read my article and comment! I hope the following addresses the questions and issues raised in your remarks.

Dr. Goldsbury,

I believe the techniques illustrated in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938), and the film BUDO (1935) are largely Daito-ryu in origin and reflect the Aikido taijutsu, which O'Sensei practiced and taught the remainder of his life. I base this belief on a comparison of the techniques contained in the two books and the film with the techniques taught by Saito Sensei.

I agree there is a potential problem, due to O'Sensei's failure to identify each technique by a unique name, in examining the correspondence of Aikido and Daito-ryu techniques. The lack of specific names for Aikido techniques was especially troublesome in dealing with the Aikido Kokyu Nage and the joint locks affecting the elbow. Using the terminology created by Ratti and Westbrook was the best I could do to provide relatively descriptions of the Aikido Kokyu Nage. As to the Aikido elbow locking techniques, I had no real alternative and had to lump the techniques together as Ude Hishigi. Since my focus was limited to the 118 techniques of the Hiden Mokuroku, I do not believe the lack of specific names created a problem. I do believe the lack of specific terms for the Aikido waza would significantly complicate any attempt to identify correspondence between the vast number of Kokyu Nage and other unidentified techniques found in Aikido with the techniques of Daito-ryu contained in the levels beyond the Hiden Mokuroku, such as the Aiki no Jutsu, Hiden Ogi, Goshin Yo no Te, etc.

Keith,

I agree with your comment regarding "correlation." I used the word "correlation" in the sense of presenting or setting forth a relationship. In hindsight, "Correspondence of Aikido and Daito-ryu Waza" would have been better title for the article.

Erick,

I have the data and since there appears to be an interest, I will construct an article identifying those techniques of the Hiden Mokuroku, which O'Sensei appears not to have incorporated in Aikido. I think it would interesting to catalogue the technique of the Hiden Mokuroku O'Sensei did not include in the corpus of Aikido, with conjecture as to why the techniques were not included. This should generate some interesting discussions.

Amir,

I will answer your question regarding what I believe consitutes correlation separately. Regards, JED.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

I just want to thank you for such a big time and energy undertaking; well worth it.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:48 PM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

BRAVO.

Wow...quite nice.

Note: anyone interested in getting a handle on some of the Daito ryu names may want to look at Kondo Sensei's books and videos. At least you can get a clear vision of the material being discussed, aside from the variations between Daito ryu schools, etc.
Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 09-15-2008 at 03:50 PM.

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Old 09-15-2008, 09:05 PM   #12
John Driscoll
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Amir,

In developing the correspondence between the Aikido techniques and those of Daito-ryu, I first identified the characteristics of the Aikido technique.

For example, Shiho Nage of Aikido begins with Tori securing a grip on Uke's wrist and creating kuzushi, by manipulating Uke's arm, creating a sequential locking of Uke's elbow, shoulder, and spine. Uke finds himself fixed in place with his arm extended, back arched and the torso twisted. Tori maintaining kuzushi steps through with the inside foot (foot on the side of Tori's body closest to Uke) for the omote version or pivots to the rear on the inside foot. Once Tori has placed his foot, Tori pivots approximately 180 degrees to the rear, folding Uke's arm back, and cutting down Uke's arm, as if performing a yokomen cut with a sword. The action of Tori causes Uke to fall to the ground, either rotating at shoulder height or driven directly down.

After identifying the characteristics of the Aikido technique, I then examined the techniques of the Hiden Mokuroku to identify any technique conforming to the pattern.

If you review the Hiden Mokuroku, you will find techniques identified as Shiho Nage in the Ikkajo and Sankajo series of the Hiden Mokuroku. You will also observe two techniques in the Hanza Handachi set of the Ikkajo series, referred to respectively as Hanmi Nage and Irimi Nage. There are two additional techniques in the Hiden Mokuroku, both Tachiai, related to the Shiho Nage of Aikido, one is in the Sankajo series, Ippon Katsugi, and the other is in the Yonkajo series, Kasumi Nage. In addition to the Shiho Nage techniques found in the Hiden Mokuroku, there is one each in the Ikkajo Uragata and the Nikajo Uragata.

All of these techniques conform to the general description of the Aikido Shiho Nage. An examination of each of the Daito-ryu techniques reveals the following.

In the Shiho Nage of the Tachiai set of the Ikkajo series, Tori grips Uke's wrist as Uke attempts to grasp Tori's other hand and applies pressure with the gripped wrist locking Uke's hand back and up, while extending Uke's arm. Tori then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido, with the exception Uke's arm is maintained in an extension in the Shiho Nage of the Tachiai set of the Ikkajo series.

The Hanmi Nage is a variation of Hanmi Handachi Katate Dori Shiho Nage of Aikido performed by Tori seated in seiza against an Uke who is attempting to grab Tori's hand from a standing position. Essentially, Tori creates kuzushi as in the Shiho Nage of the Ikkajo series and then proceeds to move Uke, who is standing, around him. However, the overall affect is the same as in the primary Aikido Shiho Nage, and I have seen a technique identical to Hanmi Nage taught by a variety of Aikido sensei.

The Irimi Nage is a variation of Hanmi Handachi Ryote Dori Shiho Nage Omote of Aikido performed by Tori seated in seiza against an Uke who is attempting to grab both of Tori's hands from a standing position. Essentially, Tori creates kuzushi as in the Shiho Nage of the Ikkajo series and then proceeds to stand up moving his inside foot forward. After assuming a standing position, Tori proceeds as in the basic Shiho Nage. There is a noticeable difference between Irimi Nage and the Shiho Nage of Tachiai set of the Ikkajo series, in Irimi Nage, Tori folds Uke's arm back in the same manner as the Aikido Shiho Nage, rather than keeping Uke's arm extended.

In the Shiho Nage of the Tachiai set of the Sankajo series, Tori grips Uke's wrist as Uke delivers a shomen uchi to Tori's head. Tori grips the wrist of Uke's striking arm with both hands, creating torque that cause sequential locking of the elbow, shoulder and spine, while maintaining the extension in Uke's arm. Tori then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido.

In the Ippon Katsugi of the Tachiai set of the Sankajo series, Tori grips Uke's wrist as Uke attempts to grasp Tori's other hand and applies pressure with the gripped wrist, locking Uke's hand back and up, while extending Uke's arm. Tori raises Uke's arm, then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido, with the exception Tori creates a hyperextension of Uke's elbow by locking the joint across Tori's shoulder on the same side as Tori's wrist that is being held by Uke. After the hyperextension of the elbow, Tori proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of the Tachiai set of the Ikkajo series.

In the Kasumi Nage of the Yonkajo series, Tori grips Uke's wrist as Uke delivers a yokomen uchi to Tori's head. Tori uses his hand on the side Uke is attacking to pass Uke's striking arm to Tori's other hand, which grasps the arm at the wrist, while Tori's hand, on the side attacked, grasps Uke's attacking arm near the elbow. Tori uses both hands to create torque, causing a sequential locking of Uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder and spine, while maintaining the extension in Uke's arm. Tori then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido.

In the Shiho Nage of the Ikkajo Uragata, Tori grips Uke's wrist as Uke attempts to grasp Tori's left hand with Uke's right hand. Tori grasps Uke's left wrist with Tori's right hand and releases his left hand, grasping the thumb of Uke's right hand with his left hand. Tori uses both hands to create torque to sequentially lock Uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder and spine, while maintaining the extension in Uke's arm. Tori then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido.

In the Kote Gaeshi of the Nikajo Uragata, Tori grips Uke's fist with his hand as Uke delivers a mune tsuki. Tori uses his other hand to grasps Uke's attacking arm near the elbow. Tori uses both hands to create torque causing sequential locking of the elbow, shoulder and spine, while maintaining the extension in Uke's arm. Tori then proceeds as in the Shiho Nage of Aikido.

Although each of the Daito-ryu techniques had minor variances, affecting the overall power and flow of the technique, each technique does track with the Aikido Shiho Nage and are contained in the technical body of Aikido, with the exception of the gripping of Uke's thumb by Tori in the Shiho Nage of the Nikajo Uragata. There is a version of Shiho Nage taught in Aikido dojo, which has Tori gripping the base of Uke's thumb. Therefore, I consider each of the listed Daito-ryu techniques as corresponding to the Shiho Nage of Aikido.

What I noted generally -- emphasis on generally -- was as you moved through the levels of technique, Ikkajo through Gokajo, the quality of the technique improved in the sense the higher the level, the less the technique relied on pure physical strength, relying more on timing, positioning, and manipulation of Uke. There appears to be general agreement on this assessment within the Daito-ryu community.

Further, it appears Morihei Ueshiba incorporated in Aikido the version of the Daito-ryu technique, which he believed to be the one generating the most power and versatility of application, with modification, as he deemed appropriate.

I hope the preceding answers your question. Regards, JED.
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Old 09-16-2008, 05:28 PM   #13
Keith Larman
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Quote:
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Keith,

I agree with your comment regarding "correlation." I used the word "correlation" in the sense of presenting or setting forth a relationship. In hindsight, "Correspondence of Aikido and Daito-ryu Waza" would have been better title for the article.
Thanks and regardless I think it is a great article. My only concern is that there is always someone who will argue that the entire thing must be thrown out because this isn't really correlation in any conventional sense of the word. Correlation is an attempt to quantify the "agreement" (or even correspondence) of variance in the observed data. But here we don't really have variance and some could spend a lifetime nitpicking whether this shihonage is the same as that shihonage. Or how to quantify each one. But that isn't the point of your article if I'm reading it correctly.

Basically what you've done is cataloged and cross referenced techniques to show how the curriculum of the two arts overlaps considerably. That in and of itself is the real lesson here. And greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Lord what I wouldn't give to have all this same information in a book with photographs of both for comparison's sake. Given the variety of terminology it would be a fantastic resource. Gee, someone could get published doing something like that...

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Old 09-16-2008, 09:19 PM   #14
John Driscoll
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Keith --

You've got it! As I stated at the end of the article, this is simply a cross reference for those interested in researching the relationship between the technical body of Aikido taijutsu and that of Daito-ryu. Regards, JED.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:47 PM   #15
Amir Krause
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Quote:
John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Amir,

In developing the correspondence between the Aikido techniques and those of Daito-ryu, I first identified the characteristics of the Aikido technique.

For example, ...

I hope the preceding answers your question. Regards, JED.
Most interesting. Thanks for the detailed answer.

I have an additional question. Have you got any idea if many other Japanese Ju-Jutsu styles are as similar, or are significantly less similar? (in this regard, the notion of correlation is very useful, when correlating signals, one often compares the correlation to a desired signal to the correlation to other signals).

Personally, I train Korindo Aikido, which, according to Hirai Sensei (the founder), is a separate M.A. based on his learning. However, since Hirai Sensei called his M.A. Aikido, and had spent several years in the vicinity of Ueshiba Sensei. Many people insist Korindo Aikido is a branch of the Ueshiba Aikido.

Technically wise. Korindo Aikido has some special movements which are based on Hirai innovation, and which change the specifics of many techniques. Still, I have seen almost all of the techniques we use in Aikikai Aikido (often with some variation). Then again, I have seen similar techniques in many other M.A. including Modern Ju-Jutsu styles, in some of the few Kung-Fu styles I have seen, and most importantly, in the single practice I was lucky to get in Takenouchi Ryu Ju-Jutsu, which Hirai Sensei studied as a child and started teaching before he found his own way.

Thus, my own interest in this way of comparing.

I should also warn that at-least here, we consider Korindo Aikido to be eclectic, and have knowingly adopted techniques we found to follow the "spirit of the art". If Ueshiba had a similar grasp of things, and given his level of talent, he could have added lots of things from many other M.A.

Amir
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:56 PM   #16
John Driscoll
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Amir,

The following are some of the characteristics I use to assess the possible connection of a jujutsu ryu with Aikido and Daito-ryu.

Does Tori appear to "draw out" or "lead" Uke?

Does Tori take control of the line of attack and then redirects Uke?

Do the techniques of the school tend to conform to the concept of spirals along four axes vertical, horizontal, obliquely upwards and obliquely downwards?

Do the techniques of the school exhibit an overall sense of "aiki", i.e., is there a sense Tori is managing Uke through a mixture of subtle psychological and physical controls?

Using the above criteria, I have found a number of traditions, such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Shindo Yoshin Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, etc., have noticeable similarities with respect to Aikido and Daito-ryu. I have also used the characteristics to eliminate a number of traditions from any connection, such as Sekiguchi Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Kito Ryu, etc. Keep in mind my judgment regarding the possible connection or lack of connection of these traditions is purely speculative, based upon analysis of available video of techniques ascribed to these traditions. I should add, while Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Shindo Yoshin Ryu display similar characteristics, neither Hontai Yoshin Ryu nor Shindo Yoshin Ryu appear to have any actual connection to Aikido or Daito-ryu. (For a detailed discussion, see "Genesis: A Speculative History of Daito-ryu-Part II: The Wind in the Willows," by Ellis Amdur (http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=2702).)

Based upon statements made by Ellis on E-Budo.com, I believe he will present a strong case identifying the root art(s) of Daito-ryu in his forthcoming book, Hidden in Plain Sight. The new book should be available this winter.

I find it interesting that the founder of Korindo Aikido studied Takenouchi Ryu and did not have any direct association with Morihei Ueshiba. I also understand, while Korindo Aikido is an eclectic art, there are techniques within Korindo Aikido, which would cause an observer to judge it an art connected to Ueshiba's Aikido. Does Korindo Aikido, in your opinion, display any of the above characteristics? Regards, JED.
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:26 AM   #17
Amir Krause
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Thanks

Trying to answer your questions:

Quote:
John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Amir,

The following are some of the characteristics I use to assess the possible connection of a jujutsu ryu with Aikido and Daito-ryu.
Quote:
John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Does Tori appear to "draw out" or "lead" Uke?
Not sure I understand the question.

Quote:
John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Does Tori take control of the line of attack and then redirects Uke?
Tori can either take control of the line of attack, if his timing is early enough, or get out of line and establish a new line.

Quote:
John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Do the techniques of the school tend to conform to the concept of spirals along four axes vertical, horizontal, obliquely upwards and obliquely downwards?
A strong yes, with emphasis on combining a vertical "wave" with horizental spiral.

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John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Do the techniques of the school exhibit an overall sense of "aiki", i.e., is there a sense Tori is managing Uke through a mixture of subtle psychological and physical controls?
yes, though this is more difficult to answer. As most disagree on the difinition of "aiki".

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John Driscoll wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that the founder of Korindo Aikido studied Takenouchi Ryu and did not have any direct association with Morihei Ueshiba. I also understand, while Korindo Aikido is an eclectic art, there are techniques within Korindo Aikido, which would cause an observer to judge it an art connected to Ueshiba's Aikido. Does Korindo Aikido, in your opinion, display any of the above characteristics? Regards, JED.
Just to clarify, Hirai Sensei, the founder of Korindo Aikido did have direct connection to Morihei Ueshiba, but according to the description inside korindo, he met Ueshiba after he found his own way, and started teaching. And his association with Ueshiba was not one of teacher / student. Rather he taught in Ueshiba Dojo and later became the "operational manager".
At the same time, people from Aikikai seem to consider him as a student of Ueshiba.
This was the reason I was wondering if your analisys could provide additional insight about the origins of the art. But, according to you, Takenouchi Ryu does have similar concepts, invalidating such analisys tool.

Amir
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:56 PM   #18
Eric Joyce
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Great job John. Question, did you consider looking at some Yoshinkan material to help with your analysis and research?

Eric Joyce
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:35 PM   #19
John Driscoll
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Eric --

I did use Shioda Sensei's books and videos as secondary source material, as well as books and videos featuring O'Sensei, Nishio Sensei, Shirata Sensei, Tomiki Sensei, and Tohei Sensei. If you have the opportunity to see the complete Hiden Mokuroku, you'll see a number of Daito-ryu techniques which appear to be closer to the Yoshinkan technique, than the Aikikai version. Regards, JED.
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Old 05-23-2009, 07:18 AM   #20
aikishrine
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Wow alot of work here, anyone who puts this type of effort into something deserves to have it read. My own way of thinking about it though is while the waza of both arts are the same for the most part. The application and philosophy behind them differ greatly.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:57 PM   #21
K. Abrams
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Who knew?
A paternity test that almost proves who aikido's daddy is!
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:56 PM   #22
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Well done! I don't know why I didn't see this when it first appeared....
Guess I wasn't looking and didn't see the title before it got pushed down the line. I really can't understand why it's so difficult for some people to see where Ueshiba's core knowledge and experience came from. I never have bought the visits from the tengu in anyone's history...

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:37 AM   #23
Aikilove
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Great job John.
This should be put in aikiwiki or the article section or something.

/Jakob

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Old 08-24-2009, 10:05 AM   #24
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

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John Driscoll wrote: View Post
In developing the correspondence between the Aikido techniques and those of Daito-ryu, I first identified the characteristics of the Aikido technique.
Before indulging some hopefully constructive critique, let me thank you for this analysis. It is very worthwhile.

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John Driscoll wrote: View Post
For example, Shiho Nage of Aikido begins with Tori securing a grip on Uke's wrist and creating kuzushi, by manipulating Uke's arm, creating a sequential locking of Uke's elbow, shoulder, and spine.
More critically definitive of aikido, and aiki arts in general IMO, is the mechanism of obtaining kuzushi. Several schools of jujutsu do this essentially from an arm lock applying leverage through the elbow joint to create kuzushi. This is simply a linear reaction to strain, and not aiki. Cranking, or the torsional equivalent of leverage, is the same thing.

Conversely, the sharp spiral tightening in aikido and other more expressly aiki arts should provoke an involuntary reflex in the body, in this case the triggering of extensors, and hence the tippy-toe reaction of uke for the entry. The inverse form of this action will generate the reverse and trigger flexors to drop him.

The manner of the application of the torque (or in some cases a more linear wave) is different from what you seem to imply. It is just as critical and must be of the rhythm of furitama in order to effect proper aiki. It may be only a single sharp pulse in that overt action -- or an almost imperceptible amplitude but continuous furitama that enables an kind of tactile echo-sounding 'sensitivity' of internal structure (kokyu tanden ho) that leads one where to move for kuzushi without any applied overt torquing or levering of the limb or body.

That manner of action defines it as an aiki waza and distinguishes it from the simple applied torsion or straight arm locks (some of which you describe) which are applying an overt leverage (albeit one the joint cannot oppose) and those that apply the "sequential torque" as you call it. The action is not an actual "cranking" torque or a leverage, though it is inherently related. In a beam, applied bending forces are resisted by resulting internal shears. The relationship is that if you create bending (torque or leverage) you get spontaneous shear -- if you create shear you get spontaneous bending. Aiki is in the latter category, which can be shown by a literal kitchen-table model.

Take a dishrag from your kitchen. Hold it between your hands. Try to use the dishrag to push one hand with the other. It won't work because it is as limp as ... um... a dishrag.

Now twist the dishrag between your hands. Keep twisting until all the slack is wrung out. You can now push one hand with the other, like it was a slightly bendy stick. Now, push the hands together, feel it compress slightly without bending the rag much. Now -- without releasing the slight compression -- release the twist slightly in one hand -- the rag will now bend spontaneously in response to the buckling shear created by the effective lengthening of the rag in untwisting it -- and at a joint that you did not even see when it was all twisted up.

Conversely, if you allow an end to remain free to move as you twist, it coils up in tension from the continued torsional shortening while essentially still slack (vice a torsional strain from resistance to the movement, once some tautness is obtained).

These are the purely mechanical part of the respective inverse actions of aiki -- which involves creating spontaneous action in a structure very different from the direct action of a pure torque or leverage on a resisting structure. The neuromuscular part in manipulating reflexes is noted above.

These two mechnical actions are the closing and opening forms of asagao in the DTR terminology. The attention of some to the issue of "slack" in the structure is generally correct -- but -- this seems IMO misinterpreted in the way they typically describe it .

Slack can be poor structure -- or it can be a structural reserve. It does not necessarily indicate poor structure --as with the dishrag -- slack and taut can be converted at need to different effect. But the inability to shift between them fluidly, and the lack of sensitivity to that critical cusp state -- not quite slack, not quite taut -- WOULD indicate poor structural sensitivity. Simply making the structure taut does not insulate it from the application of aiki -- as shown by our dishrag, and there are other neuro-muscular things going on that critical slack can either provoke or defeat in application. It also seems to be what O Sensei addressed in his discussion regarding aiki training as the "softening of joints."

If the shape of the action is correct in that way -- as well as the rhythm, uke folds up like a cheap cardboard playhouse -- and the "technique" is simply defined by the way in which the suddenly mobilized joints display themselves. Essentially, the action of aiki shapes the failure mode of a structure and then shifts it out of its stability profile -- but not locking it up -- it departs stability with one, and only one, degree of freedom -- the form of the technique being applied, which it follows like a leaf down a sluice.

If the action results in an overt resisted torque or countered lever, then the manner of action has not been achieved in aiki or aiki is lost in the course of application. A throw progressively tightens (closing asagao) or loosens (opening asagao) and then reverses the action at a cusp -- like a ski jump, or in osae waza continues the same action without reversal but the degree of freedom is then closed off by an obstacle (typically, a wall, floor, knee, hip, or whatever).

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John Driscoll wrote: View Post
Further, it appears Morihei Ueshiba incorporated in Aikido the version of the Daito-ryu technique, which he believed to be the one generating the most power and versatility of application, with modification, as he deemed appropriate.
His rubric ( and method) for arriving at what was "appropriate" is what I think is important. I submit that the Aikido corpus pruned from the DTR syllabus represent those applications lending themselves most readily to the described manner of action. I submit that they became the "aikido corpus" because when O Sensei intuitively grasped the essential nature of manipulating structure and reaction in this way -- they were the types of techniques he most readily "found" when acting spontaneously, in takemusu aiki. He therefore tended to repeat those essential forms in as many variations as they spontaneously appeared to him, rather than demonstrating them as a prefigured or intended corpus of techniques. Those that did not lend themselves to this manner of action at all, or as easily, just fell away from disuse.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:21 PM   #25
Leonaiki
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Re: Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza

Long after... a lot of thanks really for that great job. It gave many people much food for thought.

Just a question: in your study, have you found any correlation between happo giri in Aikido and Daito ryu?

I guess this is an open question for whoever is competent in Daito.

Many thanks for the answer(s)
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