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Old 07-07-2008, 11:29 AM   #1
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How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

It's an interesting thing, history. It tells a lot while telling nothing at all.

So, while perusing Aikido Journal, I read Stan's wonderful account of Ueshiba and aikido.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=34

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
I think it is due primarily to the fact that very few of O-Sensei's students trained under him for any protracted length of time. With the exception of Yoichiro (Hoken) Inoue, a nephew of Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, and Tsutomu Yukawa, O-Sensei's prewar uchideshi studied a maximum of perhaps five to six years. Certainly this was enough time to become proficient in the art, but not enough to master the vast technical repertoire of aiki budo with its many subtleties. Most of these vigorous young men who enrolled as uchideshi were forced to prematurely end their martial arts training to enter military service. Furthermore, only a handful of these early deshi resumed their practice after the war.
That's interesting. Five to six years.

But, wait, there's more:

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
The same can be said of the postwar period. The initiates of that period include such well-known figures as Sadateru Arikawa, Hiroshi Tada, Seigo Yamaguchi, Shoji Nishio, Nobuyoshi Tamura, Yasuo Kobayashi, and later Yoshimitsu Yamada, Mitsunari Kanai, Kazuo Chiba, Seiichi Sugano, Mitsugi Saotome and various others. Shigenobu Okumura, Koichi Tohei, and Kisaburo Osawa form a somewhat unique group in that they practiced only briefly before the war, but achieved master status after World War II. None of these teachers spent any lengthy period studying directly under O- Sensei.
And then we tie some of it up with:

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
It means further that O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was not seriously involved in the instruction or administration of aikido in the postwar years.
Now, let's take a look at two of the greats in Aikido: Shioda and Tomiki.

Shioda -- according to the wiki (yeah, if it's right), Shioda trained on and off for ten years with Ueshiba.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gozo_Shioda

Tomiki -- 1926 started. By 1940, 8th dan. 14 years. And that period of time was on and off training, too.

And what I think is really appropriate is that, by far, most of the greats in Aikido trained under Ueshiba learning ... Daito ryu.

How long? Well, it seems that with the right training methods, the greats only took 10-15 years.

In What Manner? Why, they studied Daito ryu, of course.

It doesn't take genius to realize that there was a definite training method that Takeda passed down to learning aiki. It was, after all, Deguchi who suggested Takeda change the art's name to Daito ryu aikijujutsu. An outsider that understood aiki to be the heart of Takeda's art. Interesting. And Ueshiba later adopted aikido as a name for his art. Commonalities?

And it doesn't take a genius to see that Ueshiba was still working on the Daito ryu aiki while teaching to pre-war students. (Whether he actually taught it is another matter.)

How, then, does one analyze current aikido training in regards to length of time and ability? If you've studied for 10-15 years, are you nearing the abilities of Tomiki, Shioda, etc? If not, why?

There are training methods that work better than others. And the amount of time put into training methods matters. But, considering that quite a lot of the greats had solo training methods, where are they in current aikido training? For example, it seems that shiko was a method used by many greats in Daito ryu. Where did it go in Aikido? Has anyone ever asked Tomiki, Shioda, etc about their solo training? Using shiko? What exactly were they doing?

Again, how long? Certainly under 20 years to be very good.

In what manner? The very essence of Daito ryu that made it to Aikido but was not passed through to current training methodologies. Forget the "ai-ki" of spiritual joining of harmonious love. Look to the "aiki" that Ueshiba knew from Daito ryu. Ueshiba was Daito ryu to the core. It was on top of that, that he overlayed his spiritual insight and outlook.
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:25 PM   #2
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
How, then, does one analyze current aikido training in regards to length of time and ability? If you've studied for 10-15 years, are you nearing the abilities of Tomiki, Shioda, etc? If not, why?
What is the criteria for measuring and comparison?

All good questions, but how do you define where you currently are in the process?

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Old 07-07-2008, 01:02 PM   #3
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Don't forget that many of the early students of Ueshiba were already well-trained judoka of yodan - godan level. Tomiki and his brother were already famous as "the Tomiki of Waseda" when Kenji Tomiki first began training with Ueshiba. His brother suffered an illness and had to stop active budo training. Many people tell the story of Tomiki being sent by Kano to train with Ueshiba, but it's not true. He met Ueshiba through Tomita and was impressed with his abilities and then Kano agreed that it would be good to train with Ueshiba. Mochizuki and one other that I can't remember just now were sent by Kano to train with Ueshiba.

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Old 07-07-2008, 01:18 PM   #4
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Chuck beat me to it. Just imagine what a godan (particularly from that period) could do with a couple years training with someone like Ueshiba?

Chris Moses
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:00 AM   #5
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Tohei: 1940 - Noted as being only 6 months before teaching.

Why did it take them so few years to become good? Tomiki had a background before he met Ueshiba and it did him no good. Ueshiba had a background when he met Takeda and it did him no good. If those backgrounds were so solid that they "helped" them get better, why was it that every one of them (Ueshiba meeting Takeda, Tomiki meeting Ueshiba, well, everyone meeting Takeda and everyone meeting Ueshiba) was tossed like a rag doll and treated as if they were children in the hands of a parent? Their prior training counted for nothing. Their prior training could do nothing to stop or counter anything.

So, Ueshiba, with all his prior "training" gets manhandled. But then goes on in less than ten years to become someone who manhandles. Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around. Tohei brags that it only took him 6 months (but not under Ueshiba's teaching).

Why?
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:24 AM   #6
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Tohei: 1940 - Noted as being only 6 months before teaching.

Why did it take them so few years to become good? Tomiki had a background before he met Ueshiba and it did him no good. Ueshiba had a background when he met Takeda and it did him no good. If those backgrounds were so solid that they "helped" them get better, why was it that every one of them (Ueshiba meeting Takeda, Tomiki meeting Ueshiba, well, everyone meeting Takeda and everyone meeting Ueshiba) was tossed like a rag doll and treated as if they were children in the hands of a parent? Their prior training counted for nothing. Their prior training could do nothing to stop or counter anything.

So, Ueshiba, with all his prior "training" gets manhandled. But then goes on in less than ten years to become someone who manhandles. Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around. Tohei brags that it only took him 6 months (but not under Ueshiba's teaching).

Why?
You missed Tenryu, who did all kinds of pushing with Ueshiba. In three months Ueshiba told him he "got it" now no one could throw him. What did he show him that Tenryu could combine with his training?
You missed the Judo guy who was unthrowable in matches
Funny how if you read and dig, the ones who got it, and were seen here and there doing it -all demonstrated tricks to demonstrate it outside of waza.

As to why?
I'd bet because they were taught the body skills to make aiki
Everything else is icing on the cake.
If you recall the Judo guy who gave a large donation was given a "gift" in return. they...brought him to an aikijujutsu guy who showed him what? Waza? No. he demonstrated aiki power through static tricks to let the American see real power, that he was told made certain guys unthrowable. Further, that few men knew of it, and fewer still practiced it.
I think it is obvious that it is rare and it not openly taught. Thousands sweat it out and spend thousands looking for it. For some smart guys -technique 267 variation b. didn't come close to cutting it, they started looking elsewhere.
.
Not to worry though, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, Ueshiba, all had many contemporaries training with them who never got it.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:18 PM   #7
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

From Aikido Journal Issue 109

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
With the exception of Yoichiro (Hoken) Inoue, Ueshiba's nephew, Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, and Tsutomu Yukawa, O-Sensei's prewar uchideshi studied a maximum of perhaps five to six years.
and

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
The same can be said of the postwar period. The initiates of that period include such well-known figures as Sadateru Arikawa, Hiroshi Tada, Seigo Yamaguchi, Shoji Nishio, Nobuyoshi Tamura, Yasuo Kobayashi, and later Yoshimitsu Yamada, Mitsunari Kanai, Kazuo Chiba, Seiichi Sugano, Mitsugi Saotome and various others. Shigenobu Okumura, Koichi Tohei, and Kisaburo Osawa form a somewhat unique group in that they practiced only briefly before the war, but achieved master status after World War II. None of these teachers spent any lengthy period studying directly under O-Sensei.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:21 AM   #8
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

From Westbrook and Ratti's Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. The authors quote Tohei in the book.

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
... the physical techniques can be easily learned within a short time span, like other Martial Arts.
What exactly should we be focusing on, if not techniques?
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:14 AM   #9
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
From Westbrook and Ratti's Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. The authors quote Tohei in the book.

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
... the physical techniques can be easily learned within a short time span, like other Martial Arts.]
What exactly should we be focusing on, if not techniques?
According to Sagawa, after he deigned to "teach" through Kimura, the concept can be grasped very quickly (seventeen in his case) but the achievement of aiki requires "decades" of tanren. What part of "decades" is difficult to understand? Nothing here rebuts that point.

In the case of those whose training incorporates regular kokyu undo and is mindful and rigorous, only the proper application and conceptual or perceptual change is necessary to bring the two into alignment -- as occurred with Tenryu. I contend it is in the nature of a kinesthetic perceptual shift like that of many optical "illusions."

Tenryu had decades of sumo tanren in his background (and Takeda's initial training was sumo, actually, and Ueshiba began in sumo, too). Ueshiba only gave Tenryu the concept with which to shift his perception and then simply apply his innate training to the new perception.

This, I submit, our good friend Rob L. is experiencing. I believe he misjudges his level of inherent preparation. He therefore mistakes the causes of his perceived arc of present gain. Beginning students with significant body movement training would be similarly pre-disposed to make quick gains when exposed to explicit concepts of this type. That could be even non-martial types of training, (Ueshiba's Hokkaido farming and later Aiki-en 合氣園 for example). I have specifically illustrated the similarities of Ark's tanren methods with heavy load-bearing/shifting skills). I have empasized the difference between learning efficient load movement with minimal musclura inputs versus wieghtlifting to build more powerful muscluature.

You assume that there is a necessary order to body training and the conceptual or perceptual shift that is entailed in developing aiki. The history shows that decades of tanren and a conceptual or perceptual shift are required -- and both are necessary to proper aiki. What the history rebuts is that they must occur in a particular order. So on this evidence, the building of body and learning the concept to apply it to are not required to be done in an invariable order. Even if some "poor" aikido training has departed from proper concepts, the tanren aspect in mainline aikido training may not be nearly as lacking as you assume.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:13 PM   #10
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
This, I submit, our good friend Rob L. is experiencing. I believe he misjudges his level of inherent preparation. He therefore mistakes the causes of his perceived arc of present gain. Beginning students with significant body movement training would be similarly pre-disposed to make quick gains when exposed to explicit concepts of this type.
That is utter nonesense, and more reason why I continually ask you stop giving bad advice and misinformation to honest hard working people who are out -actually- trying to learn these things, or looking for a training model.
You are not quallified to make these comments.

I have taught hundreds of students, among whom were absolute putzes with no experience whatsoever, and some very talented ones. Currently I have people with no prior training, with decades of training, from MMA, and Judo, to aikido training, and with ICMA training with some serious grandmaster level teachers.
They all seem to pretty much be on the same track.

I think someone would have to
a) know how to do these things that you are only "talking about"
b) have some experience teaching them over a decade or so

I thought it was known that you don't know these skills in the first place and you agreed? Are you now stating you do?How many have you taught-"these concepts" too ?
May we meet- even a single one?
Ask questions stop making statements or giving advice about things you know nothing about.

Last edited by DH : 09-13-2008 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:35 PM   #11
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

I'm finding that people who come in with wrestling backgrounds do the best in terms of catching on to aiki skills.

I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.

Face it, what we learned was great! But...it was NOT aiki in depth.

The problem is that the bar is set way too low in terms of the scale people outside of the "know" are measuring with.

You see some strong aikido teachers who are WAY FREAKEN STRONGER in terms of body skills than the 3rd and 4th dans attacking them and you think wow that is maybe a 7 on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of power. In fact given my opinion, these teachers are probably a 2 where everyone else in class are 1s and 0s.

I have experienced my share of powerful teachers. I've jammed the stink out of some shihans BEFORE I met Dan. I'm telling you, it's an entirely different scale of power.

This scale issue is what is confusing Erick. Decades of training after you are already (almost immediately) far off the scale that he must be using.

Trust me - or if not, go find out for yourself.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-13-2008 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:24 PM   #12
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Good graplers are thinkers and very much attuned to their bodies. We are thee most uderated MAers out there.

I don't even know how to rate this stuff. I think you have to view it outside of waza. You know what I think of good grapplers as a measure of everything ....so lets not even go there.

From there I think its tough to judge. There are days I get all full of myself and think I'm a 4. Other days I get more real and think I'm a 2. I can't wait to see what ten more years will bring...twenty.
I have no idea what some of these people out there teaching aiki are thinking...wow!
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:09 PM   #13
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You are not quallified to make these comments. ... Ask questions stop making statements or giving advice about things you know nothing about.
I made an on topic point that the history revelas and you are shouting people down again. Which is entertaining -- in the sense that one is pleased to see that Gilligan goofs it again in every episode -- but it isn't Twelfth Night, is it?

I am not here claiming anyone's qualification -- I claim observation, description and reason. But, if it's questions about qualifications you want -- where's your menkyo ? Who granted it ?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have taught hundreds of students, ... absolute putzes .. .some very talented ones. ... no prior training, with decades ... MMA, ... Judo, ... aikido ICMA [of] grandmaster level teachers.
They all seem to pretty much be on the same track.
Marvelous. Doesn't really address the specific point I made.

Pace Rob -- Scale doesn't matter here. I am merely looking and saying what I see in terms of physical systems. Everything is on a spectrum and the principle is the thing. Tenryu and Sagawa are the cases in point.

I pointed out that the order or form of development is historically shown to be variable, and the order in which physical training and accomplishments were obtained is demonstrated to begin with concept and decades of training (e.g. -- Sagawa) or to begin with decades of training and then a realization of concept (Tenryu).

None of that remotely depends on anyone's qualifications, other than the ability to read and reason. SO, I have to take the swipe as rather gratuitous -- which they always are of course.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:12 PM   #14
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

I'm not looking to pick on your Erick. I just see two concepts you _seem_ to be hung up on from what I would consider you misreading/misinterpreting Sagawa's words.

I mean to confront without being rude. I'm not sure I can achieve it this time, but please consider I'd had good intentions.

First, MY understanding of Sagawa talking about decades of training - is that once you have a well trained body for budo -which is way beyond what most people in the world have - and which you can develop in about 5 years- you need to put decades of work to take it to level he took it or beyond. That doesn't mean to me that it takes decades of training to get beyond the best of the rest. Tom Holz for instance doesn't have decades of training. He has like 2 years of aiki training There are plenty of other examples, He is just the most obvious one. It's almost hyperbolic.

Second, Sagawa talking about "thinking" would never result in my THINKING THAT the words or advice from someone who does not claim to be able to do it or teach it should be considered to the same degree as the words and advice of someone I know can do it and is teaching it.

For instance,I can see a torsion tube model here and there in my current training. I just cannot see how that is at all helpful in any way shape or form. It's just an aside. Knowing that does help develop the skills in self nor in students.

Rob
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:14 PM   #15
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I made an on topic point that the history reveals and you are shouting
people down again. (sacasm deleted
Erick Lets review. This was your -on topic point.
Quote:
This, I submit, our good friend Rob L. is experiencing. I believe he misjudges his level of inherent preparation. He therefore mistakes the causes of his perceived arc of present gain. Beginning students with significant body movement training would be similarly pre-disposed to make quick gains when exposed to explicit concepts of this type.
You are judging Rob’s experiences now in training in a method that
a) you know nothing about
b) have no comparative observations of your own and no understanding of being exposed to explicit concepts of this type
I went on to the next logical step. That was to draw a comparison.
1. you have stated you cannot do these things. you therefore cannot teach these things, therefore you have no knowledge of any comparison of you learning them, your teaching them, and the various learning curves and previous preconditioning effects on others as well as yourself. None, whatsoever.
You just assume everything.

I compared that with my experiences
2. Having taught hundreds and seeing the effect prior conditioning has had between grapplers, aikidoka of various ranks, Daito ryu practitioners, TKD, Karate, MMA, taiji, Bagau, etc

Yours is what____________________________?

Quote:
I am not here claiming anyone's qualification -- I claim observation, description and reason. But, if it's questions about qualifications you want --
where's your menkyo ? Who granted it ?
Yeah you are. In every post highlighting analysis of things you claim to understand but admit being unable to do.
Mine is definitive observations of things I most certainly can do, and teach and the experience it has brought me and those who train here.
The experience has afforded me some interesting chances to compare, contrast, and form conclusions
This ties in with your assertions about Sagawa and Tenryu and other models which are not the same-not even remotely similar. Therefore the historical references you cite, and attempt to compare this newer direct method to such broad ranges of MAers is without precedent. Your references are invalid.

That said, your comment about Menkyo is meaningless in that there is no menkyo I know of who shares this body of knowledge used within a MMA framework and the resultant experience in teaching it (not an art) as a condensed set of skills to then be used in their arts and that being such a variety itself. Some Menkyo's are instead becoming interested in learning and practicing these skills themselves, Erick. How about you?
.
Quote:
.... Doesn't really address the specific point I made. None of that remotely depends on anyone's qualifications, other than the ability to read and reason. So, I have to take the swipe as rather gratuitous -- which they always are of course.
Well, I think it continues to remain clear to the readers-that my answers to you remain definitive and on point. Your replies continue to be peppered with off topic cheap shots at me, and off topic vagueries that don’t help those searching. It should not go without notice that your comments do not jibe with anyone…any…one… person who trains this way. Your opinions and observations so far are without meaning or relevance and do not connect to their publicly stated, very real and widely diverse experiences.

Last edited by DH : 09-14-2008 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:15 PM   #16
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm not looking to pick on your Erick. ... I mean to confront without being rude. I'm not sure I can achieve it this time, but please consider I'd had good intentions.
Rob -- you are always good. No issue here.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I just see two concepts you _seem_ to be hung up on from what I would consider you misreading/misinterpreting Sagawa's words. ... First, MY understanding of Sagawa talking about decades of training - is that once you have a well trained body for budo -which is way beyond what most people in the world have - and which you can develop in about 5 years- you need to put decades of work to take it to level he took it or beyond. That doesn't mean to me that it takes decades of training to get beyond the best of the rest.
Well I am hostage here to Kimura's translator -- but in my copy Sagawa says in his section on "Discourse on Training":
Quote:
There is no such thing as "special" training. Training must be done EVERYDAY for the rest of your life. That is <the meaning of> "Shugyo." No matter how much muscle you think you aren't using (you're only misleading yourself.) The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of Tanren. It is not easy to attain.
You won't be able to manifest this skill unless you continue tanren of the body everyday for decades.

You must train the body, think and have the techniques "seep out" from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while innovating yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn't nearly enough time.
Your body has to truly be ready; otherwise no matter what you do you won't be able to do "Aiki."
Most people would probably shirk if they knew what my training regimen consisted of.
This martial art is only powerful because it is secret. It is because I know what others do not. If I were to teach this to foreigners that are of a larger build, they would have a definite advantage. Kimura has been training (tanren) on his own, so his lower back and legs are becoming different than others <around him.> I don't often talk about how to train the body, but when I do mention it, Kimura goes out and does it. You can't stop after two or three years. You must continue this and use it to change yourself everyday for the rest of your life.
Clearly -- two elements 1) a secret and 2) decades of tough but NOT "special" training preparing the body to utilize that secret.

Then he cautions:
Quote:
"Kitaeru" or "train" means that you must train in a manner that allows you to affect the opponent with minimal effort. If you used 100% of your ability (zenryoku) then it means you haven't really trained. The body must be trained until it is a veritable fortress, then should you body-check (tai atari) another person bigger than yourself, they will be sent flying.
However, if you train too much before you grasp the concept of Aiki, then this is no good.
If you will note, I distingushed Harden's assumption about "musclebuilding" in the preparatory aspects of hard labor that I see paralleled in the simlated load training of Aunkai exercises, for example. I have made clear that I, like Sagawa am speaking of EFFICIENT body movement, with minimal muscular input -- not maximum muscular effort. Muscular exhaustion, however, may lead to learning intuitive aspects of minimal effort load movement. Thus, if "every day training" is accomplished in the wrong way -- maximal effort -- it does nothing. Harden, I and Sagawa agree on that point. If it is done in accord with the principles of heavy load minimal effort -- maximal efficiency -- then it does prepare the body in accord with aiki and makes the realization of the secret

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Tom Holz for instance doesn't have decades of training. He has like 2 years of aiki training There are plenty of other examples, He is just the most obvious one. It's almost hyperbolic.
And what is his work or hobby background?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:38 AM   #17
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I went on to the next logical step. That was to draw a comparison.
1. you have stated you cannot do these things.
That's -- oh -- about five times now -- so let's just get this over wiht once and for all, shall we, -- because there really is no other way to do it.

You ... lie. Lying. Liar. Falsehood. Untruth. Mendacity. Get a thesaurus, look it up. A big fat whopper. Link a post where I said that -- rather than your twisting of attempts to get you to ever lay out specific mechanics of your "push tests." (Mark Murray did more on that score in one video than you have in numerous posts). I've challenged you three times to prove your falsehood on that one now with no response. And if not -- Please, as a favor, keep your words in your own mouth.

You've allowed yourself to go on attack on this kind of basis to the point of getting two discussions closed in one day quite recently (a record to my knowledge). Eric Hoffer. You should read Hoffer -- You'd like him.
But why don't we try to keep this discussion civil and useful. Use a little of that martial discipline people who like you say you have. Respond to the arguments -- not to your image of me.

Specifically, the point is that decades of the right hard work and disclosure or discovery of certain principles coincide in Aiki. The order of their occurrences is argued as being variable by specific contrasting examples of Tenryu and Sagawa, both favorite examples of yours. What say you?
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That said, your comment about Menkyo is meaningless in that there is no menkyo I know of who shares this body of knowledge used within a MMA framework and the resultant experience in teaching it (not an art) as a condensed set of skills to then be used in their arts and that being such a variety itself. Some Menkyo's are instead becoming interested in learning and practicing these skills themselves, Erick. How about you?
Just wanted to clear the floor of any arguments about "qualification" vice reason and observation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:33 AM   #18
Tom H.
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And what is his work or hobby background?
Rob keeps pulling me into this

In my spare time I enjoy reading, taking pictures, trading foreign currencies, and learning programming languages. At work I'm an engineer, but I don't do real engineering, I basically coral computers to process data. I once did Aikido for three months, and I once did bodybuilding irregularly for maybe a year, and I once did racquetball for almost as long.

Tom

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Old 09-15-2008, 07:04 AM   #19
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

First I made a typo I need to fix:
Quote:
Knowing that does help develop the skills in self nor in students.
Was supposed to be:
Knowing that [the torsion tube analogy] does NOT help develop the skills in self nor in students.

Sorry about pulling you in Tom. You just happen to be a hyperbolic example. You had no prior martial arts training. You didn't work on a farm or construction, etc. for any amount of heavy lifting. You were just Joe normal guy.

In terms of Sagawa's translated works, the terms "special" and "secret" seem to jump out at me.

So it's not "special" - coming from his perspective where already had a well trained body for internal power and internal skill most likely for MANY years prior to those statements. It seems reasonable that it would be special to most of the rest of us.

But it was considered "secret". I think the point here is that Dan, Mike, Aukuzawa have at least a bit of that secret _as demonstrated by ability_ and are sharing with others.

The body trained in this way throws many things which are thought to be normal "truths" out of the window.

The idea of pushing or pulling someone off balance through the line from navel to anus - out the window. Laughably so really...

The idea that people deliver weight with force - completely out of the window. This kind of training offers the delivery of force with weight held back.

Erick, let's really get this over with once and for all.

If you have at least that amount of skill - to not have a weakness in balance in the line through anus to navel - and can deliver force without weight, then state so now. Otherwise, everyone is going to continue to assume you cannot. But put an end to the assumption. If you cannot do these things state so as well. I'll even go first.

I can do these things minimally. I can withstand a very good push square in the chest when I have 1 leg forward. I can even make the person pushing feel like they are being crushed down with my mental intention (which I assume controls fascia - but maybe it is just magic!) When my feet are should width apart, I openly admit that I have a bit more trouble but I'm getting there. (Note there is no configuration I can come up with where I would expect to successfully off balance Dan or some of his students on that line from anus to navel. I don't even think they would need to be paying attention to me while I tried to push and pull them off balance on that normally weak vector.)

In terms of delivering force without weight. I'm making significant progress here. I know exactly what I'm doing correctly and incorrectly, so I am confident that I'll get it to an impressive level in the very near term (hopefully thing month, maybe a few months, but not YEARS and YEARS for sure). People like Dan, Mike, and Aukuzawa can deliver for without weight. Mike has an infamous shoulder bump. I don't think you can take advantage of such a thing. You just have to avoid it, or know how to do it yourself and meet it head on with your forearm or something. God help you if you try without a trained body for these things.

Erick, I will be shocked out of my chair if you state that you can do either of these things to any degree beyond total beginner. Nothing in aikido teaches these things to any degree. We just learn to avoid those weak lines and how to deliver force with weight that we protect a bit with certain set ups and angles. I sincerely doubt that anything in weight-baring hard physical labor teaches these things either.

This kind of direct request was made earlier. You declined to answer so I believe we assumed you conceded the point that you cannot do it or teach it yourself. Please put an end to assumption on this matter. There is no need to defer with questions about the specifics. You can by all means detail the specifics of what you think best represents the highest degree of your current abilities in these areas.

I'll tell you right now that Gleason sensei uses weight to deliver force. I'll tell you further than he could not withstand a solid push on the line from anus to navel. (Good luck trying to push him on that line. ) I would assume that this will not always be the case as he really likes what I've been showing him from what I learned from Dan. He feels this is stuff is very important to aikido. And I'll say no more about his thoughts until he says more...

Erick, the bottomline is that we all feel that observation and analysis from someone who really cannot do the things is only so valuable AND no one thinks you can do or teach these things. If you can, please explain what you can do - use my example if you like. If you cannot, please concede the point and let us move on discussing this stuff.

Thanks,
Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-15-2008 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 08:04 AM   #20
Tom H.
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Sorry about pulling you in Tom. You just happen to be a hyperbolic example. You had no prior martial arts training. You didn't work on a farm or construction, etc. for any amount of heavy lifting. You were just Joe normal guy.
Rob, I reject your apology :-P because I have no problem being pulled into this. I'm interested in watching my own progress, too, as an experiment, exactly because of where I started. Even the first time you met me I was already putting some things together. Before that I could not tell the difference between aiki and not-aiki, I could not control or sense my own body enough to stand still, much less move with connection or intention. My body was wired to either noodle or muscle, and I had no technique, timing, or positional skills.

Tom
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:33 AM   #21
Mike Sigman
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
First I made a typo I need to fix:

Was supposed to be:
Knowing that [the torsion tube analogy] does NOT help develop the skills in self nor in students.

Sorry about pulling you in Tom. You just happen to be a hyperbolic example. You had no prior martial arts training. You didn't work on a farm or construction, etc. for any amount of heavy lifting. You were just Joe normal guy.

In terms of Sagawa's translated works, the terms "special" and "secret" seem to jump out at me.

So it's not "special" - coming from his perspective where already had a well trained body for internal power and internal skill most likely for MANY years prior to those statements. It seems reasonable that it would be special to most of the rest of us.

But it was considered "secret". I think the point here is that Dan, Mike, Aukuzawa have at least a bit of that secret _as demonstrated by ability_ and are sharing with others.

The body trained in this way throws many things which are thought to be normal "truths" out of the window.

The idea of pushing or pulling someone off balance through the line from navel to anus - out the window. Laughably so really...

The idea that people deliver weight with force - completely out of the window. This kind of training offers the delivery of force with weight held back.

Erick, let's really get this over with once and for all.

If you have at least that amount of skill - to not have a weakness in balance in the line through anus to navel - and can deliver force without weight, then state so now. Otherwise, everyone is going to continue to assume you cannot. But put an end to the assumption. If you cannot do these things state so as well. I'll even go first.

I can do these things minimally. I can withstand a very good push square in the chest when I have 1 leg forward. I can even make the person pushing feel like they are being crushed down with my mental intention (which I assume controls fascia - but maybe it is just magic!) When my feet are should width apart, I openly admit that I have a bit more trouble but I'm getting there. (Note there is no configuration I can come up with where I would expect to successfully off balance Dan or some of his students on that line from anus to navel. I don't even think they would need to be paying attention to me while I tried to push and pull them off balance on that normally weak vector.)

In terms of delivering force without weight. I'm making significant progress here. I know exactly what I'm doing correctly and incorrectly, so I am confident that I'll get it to an impressive level in the very near term (hopefully thing month, maybe a few months, but not YEARS and YEARS for sure). People like Dan, Mike, and Aukuzawa can deliver for without weight. Mike has an infamous shoulder bump. I don't think you can take advantage of such a thing. You just have to avoid it, or know how to do it yourself and meet it head on with your forearm or something. God help you if you try without a trained body for these things.

Erick, I will be shocked out of my chair if you state that you can do either of these things to any degree beyond total beginner. Nothing in aikido teaches these things to any degree. We just learn to avoid those weak lines and how to deliver force with weight that we protect a bit with certain set ups and angles. I sincerely doubt that anything in weight-baring hard physical labor teaches these things either.

This kind of direct request was made earlier. You declined to answer so I believe we assumed you conceded the point that you cannot do it or teach it yourself. Please put an end to assumption on this matter. There is no need to defer with questions about the specifics. You can by all means detail the specifics of what you think best represents the highest degree of your current abilities in these areas.

I'll tell you right now that Gleason sensei uses weight to deliver force. I'll tell you further than he could not withstand a solid push on the line from anus to navel. (Good luck trying to push him on that line. ) I would assume that this will not always be the case as he really likes what I've been showing him from what I learned from Dan. He feels this is stuff is very important to aikido. And I'll say no more about his thoughts until he says more...

Erick, the bottomline is that we all feel that observation and analysis from someone who really cannot do the things is only so valuable AND no one thinks you can do or teach these things. If you can, please explain what you can do - use my example if you like. If you cannot, please concede the point and let us move on discussing this stuff.
Hi Rob:

Well, you're not only pulling Tom Holz in, you're pulling me in. My "shoulder bump" may be infamous as a demonstration, but think for a minute what would happen if I used the same power in my pointy little elbow or fist. I.e., there's a reason I use that shoulder as a demo sometimes (sparingly), but it's mainly so that people can feel what the amount of momentum transfer is. Once they feel that, they are cued rapidly (and subconsciously) about many of the desired components that are involved.

One point I'd make is one that I've made before. I think that these things should be placed back in Aikido proper as soon as possible.... but I mean that in the sense that everyone should have access to the basics. Beyond those basics, I'm not so sure. It's now 40 years after Tohei tried to get the ball rolling with these skills. It's what, about 15 years since the big "ki wars" where the then-ensconced "name" sensei's were able to prevail and convince everyone that there was no such thing as these skills? And it's now about 3-4 years since the topic was reintroduced, again to a lot of fuss and pecking-order noise (I think the archives of 3 or 4 years ago would be an interesting read for some people).

I think also that there are a limited number of people who are interested enough about Aikido and Asian martial arts to find what the "ki" powers are that are used to "aiki" with an opponent's force. Trying to fix all of Aikido is an impossible task and I'd suggest that it's not going to do Aikido any good by wasting effort on people who haven't shown much interest before now. Besides, the effectiveness of these skills is diminished if everyone knows them. It's easy to move around and control someone if you have these skills; if he has them too it's a different ballgame. There's a reason why the information has been limited for thousands of years.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:11 AM   #22
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Welcome back Mike!
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:21 AM   #23
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

Quote:
You ... lie. Lying. Liar.....You've allowed yourself to go on attack on this kind of basis to the point of getting two discussions closed in one day
You once again prove my point. When you can't argue the merits-you attack- than state you were the one attacked. I ask questions – you call it an attack, and get agressive. Its bizarre, but there it is for all to read.
Why can't you follow a line of discussion with logic presented to refute your points-and that includes questions about your ability and knowledge of the material being discussed- without you losing it?

When it comes to this information I cited a very logical approach as to why your comparisons and opinions are not useful to anyone who trains this way (including those who train who keep telling you the same thing-over and over anyway). You call that an attack!
So, what do you want?
Do you really expect dozens of Aikido people who train this way and –actually know what they are talking about- and have rejected your information, to just lie and agree with you?
Those in Aikido who are training to do real aiki have been discussing it in the Non-aikido forum. You pursue us around the forums; trying to take place in a discussion you know nothing about- you continue to describe mechanical analysis that have been rejected. In short-you keep butting in. We've asked you not to-you do it anyway. We have asked if people have come down and tested you like aikiweb did to me and then Ark and Mike. At any rate, you admitted to Mike and to me that you could not pull off the examples we cited three years ago. Look them up yourself.

Because people with these skills are so uncommon, many people here on aikiweb (many who are teachers themselves) are protective of people being scammed by posseurs and being led astray by false information. You have presented no credible information, or abilities all while stating you understand the material. Some aikido folks have objected to that.
There is a fellow who lives ten miles from you. He wants to come train here. How about we let that happen and he comes to see what your teacher is able to do-then you? Your descriptions have failed to jibe with everyone who can do these things. Your logic has been rejected as well. How about we now see if you know anything at all about this material by way of your physical skills?
It’s a discussion of knowledge Erick, not an attack on you as a person.

Last edited by DH : 09-15-2008 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:08 PM   #24
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You ... lie. Lying. Liar. Falsehood. Untruth. Mendacity. Get a thesaurus, look it up. A big fat whopper.
Jun, that has to be some kind of slander against Dan. Is there nothing that can be done about this? I could understand if Erick said, I don't believe you, etc. But he's calling Dan an outright liar.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You've allowed yourself to go on attack on this kind of basis to the point of getting two discussions closed in one day quite recently (a record to my knowledge).
Actually, Erick. I view those threads closing as being your fault. I see this one going down the same road primarily because of you and your posts.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:31 PM   #25
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Re: How Long and In What Manner to Great Mastery?

You know, I put Erick on my ignore list long ago, but now when you guys quote him in your messages, I get to see what he is writing. That's not fair! I thought I had escaped his aiki once and for all, but now am caught reading him again -- and my eyes hurt.
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