Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-10-2008, 12:47 PM   #51
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Takuma Hisa tried to keep faithful to Ueshiba and Takeda. In doing so, his organization is labeled more Daito ryu than aikido.
According to whom?
Do you think many in Daito ryu consider him more Daito ryu-like than aikiso? Or more aikido like?
In the years before Tokimune's death the heads of the Takumakai were actively pursuing a re-alignment with Tokimune's syllabus and thier own soden. Which ended when Kondo took over. So it appears at least their opinion was in keeping with a Daito ryu alignment.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 01:09 PM   #52
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 910
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
On the other hand Takeda really did an amulgum of koryu-not pretended to dp them. And he at least pointed to something other than himself.
If ever....ever....a guy wanted to push an aggenda and a soke title he could have done it- in spades.
I suppose I'm looking at all of the 'history' about the Aizu clan and the long (completely undocumented) tradition of Daito Ryu that can only be traced back as far as Takeda Sokaku. So I agree that it is a bit different, where Ueshiba and Tohei seem to present themselves as the origins, Takeda points backwards towards a past that we have a lot of speculation about (like the possible links with TSYR for example). Let's say for the sake of argument that he did study TSYR and that really did form the basis of what we now know as Daito Ryu, why not say that explicitly? Hopefully my comment is a bit clearer now.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
His impact on Ueshiba was defining, worthy of more than a causal reference.
Certainly.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As for Tohei? I dunno, that video of him with the big American was pretty awful, so what he got from Ueshiba or later from someone else might be understandable. It sure doesn't seem like Ueshiba was much interested in teaching.
My understanding of that (through Bernie Lau) is that he was expressly told to not hurt the guy and the guy seemed bound and determined to hurt himself. Like has been mentioned before however, it looks like OK judo and not aiki. As we both know, real aiki doesn't make for good video though...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think we might be talking a litte past each other again while essentially agreeing.
Very possible, hopefully we're a bit closer now. I'm really not trying to argue with you here.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 01:13 PM   #53
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
According to whom?
Do you think many in Daito ryu consider him more Daito ryu-like than aikiso? Or more aikido like?
In the years before Tokimune's death the heads of the Takumakai were actively pursuing a re-alignment with Tokimune's syllabus and thier own soden. Which ended when Kondo took over. So it appears at least their opinion was in keeping with a Daito ryu alignment.
Right now, I'm going by Aiki News/Journal. There were articles about Hisa and about his organization. Most everything pointed towards what you posted -- Daito ryu and trying to re-align with Tokimune.

Beyond that, no one (statistically speaking) in aikido ever points to Hisa as an "aikido" guy or the Takumakai as an "aikido" school/flavor/whatever.

I think the main reason is because Takeda distinctly took Hisa and his group as his students and then gave Hisa the menkyo kaiden.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 01:56 PM   #54
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: How Long and What Teaching?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Tomiki created his "competition" after the war.
Started around 1958.

Quote:
As for what Ueshiba thought of Tomiki's stuff ... I'd look for quotes from the founder himself or from students around at that time to validate things.
Yes, and of course being cautious about if those quotes are about randori system or aiki taiso system. Context is everything.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 08:53 PM   #55
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
the Hombu Dojo of today has publicly stated -- I refer to the published comments of Dojo-cho Moriteru Ueshiba and 8th dan Masatake Fujita -- that weapons training is not part of aikido
Suppai Budo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 11:38 AM   #56
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 910
United_States
Offline
Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
And like how Takeda was kind of full of himself and downplayed, er, SOMEBODY's influence. I mean, he downplayed it so much no one is really sure where DR even came from!
Chris is quoting himself (and referring to himself in the 3rd person...), uh oh, it's one of THOSE days...

This part of my quote was brought to my attention as being incorrect and I have to agree. My comment was poorly written and implies something I did not intend (that Sokaku Takeda made up Daito Ryu all by his lonesome). Daito Ryu is far too complex to have been created by one person in one lifetime, but there is evidence that what Daito Ryu was before Sokaku Takeda and what Daito Ryu is after Sokaku Takeda is (potentially at least) quite a bit different. This is far too complex a topic for this thread, but I'd encourage folks to check out this archived thread on e-budo which covers many of the complex (and mysterious!) issues that my overly short post glossed completely over.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 12:12 PM   #57
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

And others still hold that he was the originator. That the art was an amalgam of -Taakeda's- koryu studies (unlike Ueshiba's myths Takeda -actually- had them, with records and stories to support them) as well as his observations and years of musa shugyo and fighting, and not a collection other extent Daito ryu knowledge within the Aizu.

The information cited in that thread is probably no longer strictly believed by several who participated in it. There has been on going research. Ellis's book will be out soon.

As for the complexity-I have thought and argued for years that much of the so called complexity is extraneous. 2,800 waza with variations? Please!
I think the more obvious truth behind Sokaku and others "never repeating a technique" (ala Ocham) is that the body method (as cited by Sokaku, Kodo, and Okomoto) was paramount. After learning whole body aiki, ya made stuff up on the spot! It is also the most probable response as to why all five branches are so different in their syllabus.
Daito ryu's power is its aiki. as noted by Kodo you can use it in anything. It "fits" better in some aikijujutsu waza over other jujutsu, but it works in everything. Of course he wasn't doing the modern stuff like some of us are-but had he been? Who knows? Maybe-wham! No problem.
Daito ryu's body skills-if you can find people that have it in any meaningful level- are among the best in the world. That is the worth Of Daito ryu- not hundreds if not thousands of more jujutsu waza.

Last edited by DH : 09-11-2008 at 12:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 06:52 AM   #58
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 434
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: How Long and What Teaching?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film where he demonstrates "judo taiso") ...
Thanks for the film Demetrio, it is really excellent demonstration of physical jujutsu techniques !
Which techniques though?... He called this 'Judo taiso' did he?
It looks to me like a rundown of mostly aikido techniques, but done rather properly.
Can someone translate the japanese characters intruducing the film and chapters please?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 08:48 AM   #59
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

I have started a thread about Ueshiba and Daito ryu here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15100

In it, I put forth the idea that Ueshiba was still doing Daito ryu until the end of his life. The primary reason being that he was still doing Daito ryu's aiki. Due to other circumstances, he distanced himself from Takeda and stopped using the name, "Daito ryu".

I also note that all of the students and student's students of Takeda do various techniques. Even in this thread, I note that the students changed things.

So, tying all of my threads together, it isn't hard to note that the common theme of all of the greats (Takeda on down) used what people label as "aiki", specifically Daito ryu aiki since it was Takeda that made it famous.

As to the title of this thread ... Which Aikido Are You Doing? It is sort of a trick question. Because comparing the schools of Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, etc, then you find that all of their techniques are different. They *all* changed things in that regard.

The *core* though, always remained the same. Takeda's Daito ryu aiki.

If you look at it in that light, it doesn't really matter which school you are training in -- as long as it has the core component, aiki. Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa, Okamoto, Tomiki, Shioda, Tohei, etc, etc, etc. As long as the core component of Daito ryu aiki is there, it's aikido. We can *all* do whatever flavor/school/etc we want when that core component is there. Aiki is formless until someone puts it to a form.

The real question, as I have posed in another thread, Real Techniques Not Taught To Everyone, is does your school have the core component of Daito ryu aiki. If it doesn't, why not?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15098

It's time to ask the hard questions. Time to hold our teacher's teachers accountable for their teaching, even if they are no longer alive. Time to ask why Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei all got great in 5-10 years or less. But, yet, their students never got great. Time to look to the research and see that Daito ryu aiki was *the* common theme to them all and that it *was* withheld from a lot of people, both in Japan and outside Japan. Time to start putting the core back into the arts and schools so that both Aikido *and* Daito ryu will be what Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, all envisioned and lived.

Which Aikido are you doing doesn't matter and shouldn't matter. It's just your outward physical expression of the core skill of aiki coming through. Takemusu aiki. As Ueshiba stated, "I am aiki!". We all should be.

There should be no divisiveness, no haves and have-nots, no hidden training for a select few. There should be training and those that put the effort in, will advance. In 5 years, those that put the effort in should be strong, hard to throw, and have relaxed power. Not 20 years, not a lifetime. In 10-15, they should be par with Tohei, Shioda, Tomiki. I worked with someone who was working towards 15 years (pretty sure. Close anyway) of training in this stuff (No, not Dan or Mike or Akuzawa) and in my best opinion, he would rival Tohei at the very least.

It is a singularly major experience to train with someone who has real "aiki" which brings an understanding to many of the experiences written about the greats. Becoming great no longer is seen as being out of reach. What school you train in no longer is a conflicting issue - there is room for all.

After awhile, though, I hope that the oft repeated phrase is "I am aiki" instead of "I do XYZ Aikido" or "Which Aikido do you do?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 09:14 AM   #60
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Thanks for all of the work Mark!

Allen

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 11:58 AM   #61
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
There should be no divisiveness, no haves and have-nots, no hidden training for a select few.
I'm not with you there. I have personally had to kick people out of my aikido classes. Some people should not be given any more power. The responsibility of the teacher is to:
1) Be a good enough judge of people to know who to give more power too
...and maybe...
2) provide some method to help Fix the people who are so damaged that they should not be given power - like would wrestling to the point of dealing with some deep rooted insecurities in a productive way (as opposed to bravado)

Something to think about...

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 12:02 PM   #62
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm not with you there. I have personally had to kick people out of my aikido classes. Some people should not be given any more power. The responsibility of the teacher is to:
1) Be a good enough judge of people to know who to give more power too
...and maybe...
2) provide some method to help Fix the people who are so damaged that they should not be given power - like would wrestling to the point of dealing with some deep rooted insecurities in a productive way (as opposed to bravado)

Something to think about...

Rob
Hi Rob,
We agree. I don't include those kinds of situations because they are in every martial art. It is something that those teaching must deal with at various times. I was being more broad in terms of those that are in the dojo and have been approved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 02:23 PM   #63
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

I think it is important to note though that Rob and Mark have the integrity to either fix a problem or openly expel the problem. This is a world apart from duplicitously saying or acting "as if" one is doing something that one is not.

I think the kind of twisted logic* that allows a sensei to "black ball" a student, or students, (either through aggression or neglect) is the same type of twisted logic that allows a sensei to deceive students en mass while only delivering the "real deal" to one or none . . . and sleep peacefully at night.

*I think there is a "logic" of sorts present here. These individuals are, in all likelihood, maintaining some sort of narrative that, in their mind at least, justifies their (non) action.

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 02:38 PM   #64
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
My understanding of that (through Bernie Lau) is that he was expressly told to not hurt the guy and the guy seemed bound and determined to hurt himself.
I'm a little late to the party, I know, but I've been told the late Rod Kobayashi was told the same thing by Tohei with respect to that event.

Just fwiw.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 03:55 PM   #65
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Just to make something abundantly clear - I personally withnessed someone 220-230 lbs attacking with strength (not with aiki) at someone 110 lbs in Dan's dojo, and the 110 lb person did so significantly better than what I saw Tohei sensei doing in that video. He certainly had something, but it wasn't as amazing as I once thought it was.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2008, 04:10 PM   #66
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Hi Rob
Absolutely. And taking into account the caveat - that he was told not to hurt the person -is meaningless to me.
Had he the skills he could have handled him without hurting him, and done so in a -very- dlear and definitive manner. This is not a demonstration that anyone should be pointing to, or proud of.
To those that are now getting it and are out there feeling men with power and skill. Imagine beaming Tohei up and replacing him with any number of ICMA master level teachers, or even with Mike, Ark or me. What do -you-think that engagement would have looked like were we told not to harm him.
I never bought it, I sttill don't. Maybe Tohei got better later in his career.

Last edited by DH : 09-12-2008 at 04:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 07:16 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 11:00 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 08:27 PM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 12:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:35 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate