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Old 09-09-2008, 03:58 PM   #26
Chris Covington
 
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Since 2009 is upon us it looks like you're talking 19 years (give or take) to get your aiki skills. So are you incompetent, ignorant, or lying?

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in.

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:40 PM   #27
DH
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in
Hi Chris.
I don't do Chinese stuff. I don't know Baji from taiji to Xing-I. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I do Daito ryu aiki.
And no there isn't a contradiction to be found. In fact I said it pretty clearly. You're confusing the growth curve with initially *getting it*. There is a training method to get aiki that has not one thing to do with waza. Nothing. Some choose to do the jujutsu, aikijujutsu, aiki-no-jutsu, path. Others don't. You can do both aiki and mma jujutsu together as well.
If you call sweating your butt off, intensely training for hours, every day at home and at the dojo 20 hours a week a shortcut-then yes.
I call it shugyo. It doesn't take twenty years, it take about three to get it and then build from there. You only get better. And right here, you have hundreds of guys who have felt your teacher, Kiyama, Goldberg, Okomoto and others, many times. some are students, who have found the discussions we are having, and the physical comparisons to be valid, true and in their estimation how they have chosen to train. Having felt them, and also Saotome, Chiba and others in aikido as well and then feeling students of ours with one-three years and in my case up to fifteen, they have a pretty clear picture of what I mean.
I'm glad your happy with your training
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:08 PM   #28
Chris Covington
 
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Hi Dan,

"I don't do Chinese stuff. I don't know Baji from taiji to Xing-I. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I do Daito ryu aiki."

I never said you did Chinese stuff. I'm sorry if my post implied you did. You do Daito-ryu aiki? I thought you didn't do Daito-ryu? If you don't do Daito-ryu how do you know what you're doing is Daito-ryu aiki? Who did you learn Daito-ryu aiki from? For how long? I was under the impression you only studied breifly at a few seminars? You must be very skilled to pick up aiki at a few seminars for the open public! It looks like we have another Sagawa on our hands

"If you call sweating your butt off, intensely training for hours, every day at home and at the dojo 20 hours a week a shortcut-then yes."

Now here we agree. It's time in. There are no shortcuts to aiki, and solo training is just one of many tools you need to get it. You may get help on the learning curve but you still need to put in the time.

"I'm glad your happy with your training"

I am and I'm glad you're happy with yours.

Chris Covington
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:22 PM   #29
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Chris,
Hi. I started this thread with the topic of "aikido" and the various changes that have been made to them throughout the years. I really do plan on starting a thread soon about aikido and daito ryu. Could you either create another thread for your questions posed here or wait until I start that thread? (Really, though, if you did some research here on Aikiweb and on E-Budo, you'd find the answers to most of your questions.)

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:22 PM   #30
rob_liberti
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Chris.

Training aiki directly in 5 years the way Dan is showing it seems to get you way past what others do in 20-25 years. Dan is about 15 years past that level... But, I think if you have your own way to do this and don't want to drink the Cool aide, by all means, start inviting people from aikiweb to visit you and start impressing every single one of them with your power and ability to teach it without fail like Dan has. Or Mike, Or Aukuzawa.

If not, can we just make some "annoy the guy trying to help us" thread for people to pick fights and you can feel free to post there to your hearts content.

Rob
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:43 PM   #31
ChrisMoses
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You missed my point Chris.
In that it's not *a goal.*
It is part of the training.
It's an end result that's created through good training with the right mindset. It happens.
Trying to make it a "goal" has for the most part made it an artiface in many places. It's what the do arts have stated as a goal for years, and have failed sometimes to pull off.
Hmm, we're talking past each other a bit and I also feel you're contradicting yourself here.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
A goal or objective consists of a projected state of affairs which a person or a system plans or intends to achieve or bring about a personal or organizational desired end-point in some sort of assumed development.
I think the actual problem is that instead of personal development being a goal of training (meaning a desired endstate) it's approached as a part of training. In other words, train in budo with earnest and you will (possibly) become a better person *rather than* try to be a better person and as a result you will be a better budoka.

It can't be an end result and a part of training at the same time. I think we actually agree here Dan, but we might be talking past each other. I imagine that if you approached Relnick Sensei and said, "I want to train here so that I can defeat all opponents and learn to be the most efficient killer that I can possibly be" he would have shown you the door. That side of the arts (in the modern context) isn't the goal of the art, but it is a place you have to go to in order to approach the training with honesty.

As another example, while talking with our soke a number of years ago, he was adamant that one needed to train as if one was preparing to harm and kill, and yet he was equally adamant that the reason for training (the goal) was to become a better person. Ironically, it was only by entering into that very aggressive training paradigm is one able to make the actual personal improvements.

This year, I started doing trackdays with my motorcycle, and I'll be damned if you don't some of the nicest most genuine and honest people I have ever met out on the track. Why? Because as opposed to dojo martial artists (a term which certainly applies to me) these guys all really go out and put their life on the line with each other. You cannot take anything for granted in that environment and you cannot afford to suffer fools. Shinken shobu indeed.

Like I said I think we actually agree here.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:52 PM   #32
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No your not .
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me

How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just support the opposite while -you- have to deal with the results.
hot damn! I actually understood that! (couldn't do it, but understand it, ask me again in a year or two) spent a weekend picking up some very very basic stuffs from Mike. and what you have stated made perfect sense. damn! someone please smack me senseless because I shouldn't be infected by these sort of stuffs. It's going to mess up my aikido. we can't have that! can't have those aiki nonsense stuffs in my aikido.

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Old 09-09-2008, 09:35 PM   #33
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Chris Covington wrote: View Post
Dan,

I'm a little curious about your statements. In one thread you seem to be saying two very different and contradicting things.

" Twenty years to get aiki is either incompetence, ignorance, or a lie."

Okay fair enough, but then you say of yourself:

"I have never....NEVER...stopped improving. My training with people who've been here for years has been credited with a series of power and sensitivity *jumps* in the early nineties, late nineties, 2002, 2005, and this very year."

Since 2009 is upon us it looks like you're talking 19 years (give or take) to get your aiki skills. So are you incompetent, ignorant, or lying?

Or maybe there really is no shortcut? All the tanren, solo aiki building, yijinjing, qi gong, standing under a waterfall, shiko, kata, suburi, or whatever else you may do, can only take you so far... you need time in.
Um. Yeah. Mindful time . The first quote you gave has Dan contradicting Sagawa, whom he quotes on the value of solo tanren -- and crusty as Sagawa seems in Kimura's recounting -- he does not come off as a liar, and I discount the two other alternatives.

Mr. Murray's comments funneling your comments elsewhere notwithstanding, your perspective is valued here.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:12 AM   #34
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Um. Yeah. Mindful time . The first quote you gave has Dan contradicting Sagawa, whom he quotes on the value of solo tanren -- and crusty as Sagawa seems in Kimura's recounting -- he does not come off as a liar, and I discount the two other alternatives.

Mr. Murray's comments funneling your comments elsewhere notwithstanding, your perspective is valued here.
I disagree that Dan contradicts Sagawa Erick.
Frankly Sagawa contradicts himself several times throughout the book if you want to be factual.

Sagawa said he "grasped" the secret to Aiki at 17.
What Sagawa most likely referred to as "Aiki" in his later years, and said that it would take 20 years or more to "get," is the end result of refinements and complexities added on that increase the power/delivery/manipulation/efficiency of the fundamental concept he grasped at 17.

Which is why he spent so much time experimenting on different training methodologies. Honestly, after reading the book, I got the impression that he spent a good 20 years just looking for the correct training that would supplement the skill he got at 17
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:44 AM   #35
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Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Don't confuse the art with the teaching style/methodology. Toby Threadgill has talked about how his teaching style very much reflects his European fencing teacher, but the art he transmits is entirely TSYR.
Chris,
Found the article where Tohei is interviewed. It's from Aikido Journal Issue 107. Below are the relevant bits.

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
At the same time I was continuing my training at the Ichikukai. I used to stay there overnight and practice zazen and misogi. The training focused on achieving a kind of enlightened state in which both body and mind become entirely free from restraint. It was exhausting, and afterwards I would rush to aikido practice, already dead tired. To my surprise, I found that in that state people who could always throw me before were completely unable to do so! It didn't take much effort to throw them, either.
and

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
I thought about Ueshiba Sensei and realized that he was indeed relaxed when he did his aikido. It was then that I suddenly understood the real meaning of "relax."
My aikido continued to progress as I continued with my misogi and zazen. After six months or so I was even sent to teach at places like the military police academy in Nakano and the private school (juku) of Shumei Okawa. No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
Even now most people are trying as hard as they can to learn techniques, but I was learning about ki from the beginning.
and

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
While I was with Ueshiba Sensei I was also studying under Tempu Nakamura. It was he who first taught me that "the mind moves the body." Those words struck me like a bolt of electricity and opened my eyes to the whole realm of aikido. From that point on I began to rework all of my aikido techniques. I threw away techniques that went against logic and selected and reorganized those I felt were usable.
Now my aikido consists of about thirty percent Ueshiba Sensei's techniques and seventy percent my own.
As you can see, Tohei himself states that he didn't learn "ki" from Ueshiba and that he only used about 30% of Ueshiba's techniques.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:57 AM   #36
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Re: How Long and What Teaching?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Ueshiba: 1915-1919 and he started teaching. Was being regarded as strong. He only got better. Never any long time frames of training with Takeda.

Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.

Shioda: 1932-1937 and then sent to China. Supposedly trained on and off for about ten years.

Etc.

Why did it take them so few years to become good? Tomiki had a background before he met Ueshiba and it did him no good. Ueshiba had a background when he met Takeda and it did him no good. If those backgrounds were so solid that they "helped" them get better, why was it that every one of them (Ueshiba meeting Takeda, Tomiki meeting Ueshiba, well, everyone meeting Takeda and everyone meeting Ueshiba) was tossed like a rag doll and treated as if they were children in the hands of a parent? Their prior training counted for nothing. Their prior training could do nothing to stop or counter anything.

So, Ueshiba, with all his prior "training" gets manhandled. But then goes on in less than ten years to become someone who manhandles. Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around.

Why?

And then we get to Kisshomaru and Tohei ... Where are their students who turned the budo world upside down? Tossed men as ragdolls? Took on anyone and showed the merit of Aikido?

Who taught what?
Quoting the above to put it in context as I add to the list.

Tohei: 1940 - Noted as being only 6 months before teaching.

Aikido Journal Issue 107
An Interview with Tohei

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
At the same time I was continuing my training at the Ichikukai. I used to stay there overnight and practice zazen and misogi. The training focused on achieving a kind of enlightened state in which both body and mind become entirely free from restraint. It was exhausting, and afterwards I would rush to aikido practice, already dead tired. To my surprise, I found that in that state people who could always throw me before were completely unable to do so! It didn't take much effort to throw them, either.
and

Quote:
Tohei wrote:
I thought about Ueshiba Sensei and realized that he was indeed relaxed when he did his aikido. It was then that I suddenly understood the real meaning of "relax."
My aikido continued to progress as I continued with my misogi and zazen. After six months or so I was even sent to teach at places like the military police academy in Nakano and the private school (juku) of Shumei Okawa. No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
Even now most people are trying as hard as they can to learn techniques, but I was learning about ki from the beginning.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:54 AM   #37
DH
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
No one except Sensei could throw me. It took me only half a year to be able to achieve that degree of ability, so I think taking five or ten years is too slow.
I think Mark and Rob got it right
Sagawa stated he got it early, the rest was refining and experimenting to continually improve. Ark got it quickly as well. We have to couple this with Sagawa's quote that once he started to actuallly teach in his later years-(he openly admitted to holding back, and further stated Takeda told him too), that "his guys were sarting to get it" -though apparently only Kimura was putting in the work to really excell, then Sagawa died.

I join that information with recent events where hundreds have gotten out to feel Ark, Mike, Rob, me, and from what I am hearing now Howard. Does anyone have any idea how many guys with twenty, thirty, forty years-in who have felt us, then looked at us and essentially said..."We missed it. We missed getting aiki."
Yet none of us are saying it takes that long?
Let' see,
We got it, you didn't
We are stating it doesn't take that long, you are saying it does.
hmm.....
This includes Sagawa people, Kodokai, Roppokai, Aikido, several Koryu, Karate, Kali, Taiji, Bagua, etc..From what I have heard-to a man- all we have said was. "It's great stuff isn't it? Want to learn how to do it?" That aint bad.

We accept the slams, for the simple reason we know how it is to hear the message, and then see yourself completely undone by the physcal experience. We know its pretty tough to be sacrificing and cranking in the hours and travel time to Japan, working on technique #164 variation b. in your art, ten years on your way to enlightment and have some guy tell you...."that ain't it" and "that ain't gonna get you there." And then demonstrate power and sensitivity that is undeniably "it", and for some the likes of which they have never felt.

I have made peace with the realization that men need to believe in a decades long learning curve. It reinforces their choices and validates their training while explaining their low level of real understanding. Most of the guys I have met, admitted later that they "knew" there was some sort of magic, and they had been trying to work-it-out through learning more waza. Never realizing it didn't have a damn thing to do with waza in the first place.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Lines go in, lines go out,
What receives-feeds
What feeds-receives
While I am in the middle of me
How I effect change and affect you is what I am doing; negative / positive. I take away or add. And either way just supports opposites while -you- have to deal with the results.

*****************************************
Phitruong writes
hot damn! I actually understood that! (couldn't do it, but understand it, ask me again in a year or two) spent a weekend picking up some very very basic stuffs from Mike. and what you have stated made perfect sense. damn! someone please smack me senseless because I shouldn't be infected by these sort of stuffs. It's going to mess up my aikido. we can't have that! can't have those aiki nonsense stuffs in my aikido.
In fect your Aikido? How about in about 5 years making it stunning to both feel and experience.

I'm not surprised that you understood it. I see it as two conversations
a) those who haven't felt it
b) those who have
Group b understands the references made by group b and can talk about it.
to group a its a different language.

Last edited by DH : 09-10-2008 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:13 AM   #38
MM
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Continuing along the lines of how certain people changed Morihei Ueshiba's aikido ...

From Aikido Journal Issue 108

Stan is talking overall about weapons and aikido.

Quote:
Stan Pranin wrote:
It is, however, a historical fact that the founder prohibited the practice of the ken and jo at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo, EXCEPT for Saito Sensei's classes. A rather revealing fact, I would say! Should it then be surprising that the Hombu Dojo of today has publicly stated -- I refer to the published comments of Dojo-cho Moriteru Ueshiba and 8th dan Masatake Fujita -- that weapons training is not part of aikido?
Interesting isn't it. Aikikai Hombu states weapons training is not part of aikido -- all in the face of many years of historical proof that Ueshiba *did* work with weapons *and* trained people in weapons.

Really, some of the changes to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido are significant.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:32 AM   #39
DH
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Continuing along the lines of how certain people changed Morihei Ueshiba's aikido ...

From Aikido Journal Issue 108

Stan is talking overall about weapons and aikido.

Interesting isn't it. Aikikai Hombu states weapons training is not part of aikido -- all in the face of many years of historical proof that Ueshiba *did* work with weapons *and* trained people in weapons.

Really, some of the changes to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido are significant.
Does it make more sense in light of the fact that many koryu people have openly stated that aikidoka do not understand weapons and shouldn't be teaching them?

It's pretty hard to sit through this -starting at .017

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aL15DEJfWZ0

Or that at the 50 anniversary of Takedas death and the subsequent Daito ryu demonstration, Kondo and his guys did a sword demo similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyO-j...eature=related
and Mochizuki was disgusted and chastized him, telling him "You Daito ryu guys know nothing of sword!" and then had his own guys go to their cars and get their swords and do a demo.

Last edited by DH : 09-10-2008 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:00 AM   #40
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Re: How Long and What Teaching?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Tomiki: 1925-1936 and he started teaching ... in Manchuria.
...
Tomiki with all his prior training gets tossed about effortlessly like a rag doll some 63 different ways but then in very little time starts tossing judoka around.
Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film where he demonstrates "judo taiso") but, as Prof. Goldsbury stated time ago:

Quote:
3. The reference to Tomiki Sensei and competition appears on pp.184-188 of "Aikido Ichiro", by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Doshu explains that Tomiki Sensei became a professor at Waseda University in 1954 but often came to visit the Founder in Iwama and Tokyo. Tomiki Sensei was a POW in Siberia and developed a system of aiki-taiso, probably to stay alive, and explained his system to O Sensei. In Kisshomaru Doshu's words,

"On seeing this (sc. Tomiki Sensei's system), my father said,

"If you call this sort of thing "Aiki", it will cause problems."
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=15

Problems?
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:27 AM   #41
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Frankly Sagawa contradicts himself several times throughout the book if you want to be factual.

Sagawa said he "grasped" the secret to Aiki at 17. ... Honestly, after reading the book, I got the impression that he spent a good 20 years just looking for the correct training that would supplement the skill he got at 17
Kimura's accotun says he grasped the "concept" at 17 not the secret.
Quote:
Yukiyoshi Sagawa wrote:
I wrestled with the notion of how to make a technique work even if someone resisted me using all their strength since my Teens. The difference between noticing these things for yourself and having someone tell you is enormous.
And he is a bit contradictory but only facially so, and his cirticism of seomthign on the one hand and lauding it on the other has a definite point. He heavily ciriticizes people jumping and diving on the basis of senioirty as opposed to being properly thrown. He is not therefoer being critical of the role of ukemi in sensing the nature of the aiki to be employed in nagewaza. He is very clear that while tanren are exteremly valuable in teaching the body proper movement (particularly work with the sword), that the aiki is properly taught in critically FEELING one's way through ukemi made necessary by proper technique. It is the same point Amdur made about the reversal of the nage uke roles from the koryu teaching model.

Quote:
- If you swing a bokuto a lot you will realize many things. That is the important part <of swinging the bokuto.> You will become able to do many other things in your training. However that is only building of the body and no matter how much you do this, it will not allow you to be able to do Aiki by simply pursuing these kinds of exercises. <Aiki> is separate. You must FEEL as much as you can when you take my hand. I learned much by being thrown by Takeda Soukaku and gained understanding about many different things through this processs. You must be this sharp! Spirit is extremely important when fighting. And to never tense up.

- I once thought that being able to render < an opponent helpless,( implying draining them of their power)> no matter where I was touched or held on my body was everything. One day after many years of building my body through solo training, I was suddenly able to do Aiki with my body. I remember thinking at the time that always training and forging the body was extremely important. But this kind of realization is not something that can be taught. All you can do is to watch me <carefully> and absorb what you can.
His points about the nature of the "FEELING" speaks to me in my experience to some of the biomechanical aspects of the art I ahve studied and related -- furitama, tekubi furi and resonance, likely effects on reflex receptors, and the inherent structural dynamics that are keyed to those. Those are things that I have felt and do feel, and have thought about a great deal.

Quote:
- Aiki is extremely difficult. Not everyone can do it. However if you <wish to achieve it> you have to train bit by bit in a manner that will allow you to achieve it. If you give up and simply go do your own thing, you will <never achieve aiki> and will cause you to stray even further <from the path>

... - Aiki is not mysterious. There is a logic to it. I immediately apply Aiki when executing my techniques and Kuzushi <my opponent.> I am allowed to do as I please because I have applied Kuzushi. I studied long and hard on what to do if I was held down strongly and unable to move. It was because of this that I was finally able to do Aiki with my Body (Tai Aiki.) You must research and study this.
Sagawa is very clear that the value of tanren in readying the body is necessary, but no substitute for a separate and critically minded building up of pieces of understanding of what is occurring in the engagement -- which at some point blossoms forth into a realization of Aiki in the body.

For what it is worth, because you are kind enough to more forthrightly relate the Aunkai tanren than some others have been with their approaches, I can see in the Aunkai tanren a number of elements of structure, movement and mechanics that I also see in different form in the kokyu undo and illustrated in waza, and therefore have some reason to see value in them. Shintaijuku for instance may be seen as a "tight" torsional form of which ude furi is a "loose" pendular form. The mechanics are directly related -- and, loosely speaking, the shintaijuku exercise substitutes moment resolving to torsional stress for moment resolving to angular velocity. But I won't belabor that further here.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:08 AM   #42
MM
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Re: How Long and What Teaching?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Then he spent some years as POW in a russian cam and developed some kind of "aiki-taiso" (btw, here's an old film where he demonstrates "judo taiso") but, as Prof. Goldsbury stated time ago:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=15

Problems?
Tomiki created his "competition" after the war. In fact, there is an article in Aiki News about why he created it. I don't remember where, but the overall reason was because Tomiki wanted aikido to progress and things were being banned. So, to get it into the university system, he had to have competition. Hence, he created something to further aikido in universities.

Understand that Tomiki was both a Judo and an Aikido student. His views definitely show through in both areas. In other words, his "aikido" is influenced by Judo and what he did in Judo was influenced by his aikido.

As for what Ueshiba thought of Tomiki's stuff ... I'd look for quotes from the founder himself or from students around at that time to validate things. Kisshomaru was known to "change" history to further his own ideas of aikido.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:28 AM   #43
ChrisMoses
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Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As you can see, Tohei himself states that he didn't learn "ki" from Ueshiba and that he only used about 30% of Ueshiba's techniques.
Yes, I've read those too. To be blunt, I think that was his ego talking and that he was severely discounting OSensei's influence in his own development. As some context, my first Aikido school was founded by one of OSensei's last uchidehsi. Obviously during that period Tohei was a huge influence in the uchideshi as he was the head instructor. After the split, the founder of my former school left to help form the Ki Society with Tohei as he felt he represented the will of OSensei better than the nidai doshu. However, after only a few years, he left that organization to found his own style in large part because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:56 AM   #44
DH
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Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen.
Like this
Quote:
I studied a little Daito ryu too...Ueshiba Morihei
Maybe he learned more from his teacher than just how to relax after all...
I think many were listening to OSensei intently, but unfortunately few knew how to hear real well.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:10 AM   #45
MM
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Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Yes, I've read those too. To be blunt, I think that was his ego talking and that he was severely discounting OSensei's influence in his own development. As some context, my first Aikido school was founded by one of OSensei's last uchidehsi. Obviously during that period Tohei was a huge influence in the uchideshi as he was the head instructor. After the split, the founder of my former school left to help form the Ki Society with Tohei as he felt he represented the will of OSensei better than the nidai doshu. However, after only a few years, he left that organization to found his own style in large part because he felt that Tohei's ego had gotten out of control and he was no longer honoring the contributions of OSensei in favor of claiming credit for himself. Now certainly this wasn't stated in such explicit terms, but it was clear if you knew how to listen.
It could be his ego talking, true. But, it's kind of hard to reconcile that it's a lot of ego talking when he tells the story about his judo experience, getting trashed by others, then working on his own, and going back to be better. He talks about studying elsewhere at the same time as studying aikido. The part about that is where he says his misogi and zazen were "exhausting". I only know certain exercises that will do that to you while doing zazen. And he goes on to talk about how he never really understood Ueshiba's spiritual talk and didn't ever need to. Probably one of the few articles that didn't use circular speech to try to imply things.

So, I think there's some merit to what Tohei is stating. How much? I don't know. But, clearly he changed things when he formed his Ki Society organization.

As for the claims and ego. I'd imagine that was a tough time for aikido when Kisshomaru and Tohei split. I can certainly see where each would have pushed their own backgrounds and agenda to make sure that they received students. Not saying right or wrong ...
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:13 AM   #46
DH
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

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It was because of this that I was finally able to do Aiki with my Body (Tai Aiki.) You must research and study this.
this fits in with my signature paraphrased quite as well.
If you know how to do it - it helps you understand it.

You can tie it into what Kodo said as well... that once you understand "whole body aiki' the jujutsu or waza doesn't matter, it becomes free flowing. He also discussed his opinions of aiki fitting into -all- jujutsu but that some jujutsu matched with the use of aiki better. Interesting that he differentiated as well. I wonder where I heard that before I just read it last night....hmm...
He is of course is only speaking of his personal experiences and opinions. It's presumptuous to think he knew -all- jujutsu, or had figured out how to apply it in -all- jujutsu. Maybe other modern guys found "other jujutsu" that they could worth just fine.
His point, well made I think, is getting lost in waza, 1,2,-1,467...is ridiculous as it is not the way to learn aiki. Never was.
It's pointless to debate it with waza guys on their 1,468th technique. They have no ability to "see" it and will keep collecting waza in hopes of getting the stuff.
The questions remain -is there a shorter path to learn whole body aiki?
Why did Kodo, and Sagawa, and Takeda practice solo waza-and finally admit to not teaching it and withholding it.
And what was all this preparing the body, and whole body aiki talk all about if they were so concerned with waza in the first place?

I have my answers and know which way to train. Which for some strange reason is resonating with others who did the same thing, and now with students from all walks who want it
I think Sagawa addressed the Kata kings real well in me signature line..
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:14 AM   #47
ChrisMoses
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Re: Tohei greatly influenced by Nakamura

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Like this

Maybe he learned more from his teacher than just how to relax after all...
Yup, just like I mentioned on p1:

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Tohei also was kind of full of himself and seriously downplayed Ueshiba's influence.

Kind of like how Ueshiba was (gonna catch it for this one) kind of full of himself and downplayed Takeda's influence.

And like how Takeda was kind of full of himself and downplayed, er, SOMEBODY's influence. I mean, he downplayed it so much no one is really sure where DR even came from!

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:22 AM   #48
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

Hi Chris
On the one hand I want to say "Yup Exactly!"

On the other hand Takeda really did an amulgum of koryu-not pretended to dp them. And he at least pointed to something other than himself.
If ever....ever....a guy wanted to push an aggenda and a soke title he could have done it- in spades.

His impact on Ueshiba was defining, worthy of more than a causal reference.

As for Tohei? I dunno, that video of him with the big American was pretty awful, so what he got from Ueshiba or later from someone else might be understandable. It sure doesn't seem like Ueshiba was much interested in teaching.

I think we might be talking a litte past each other again while essentially agreeing.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:39 AM   #49
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

I'm leading up to a thread with Ueshiba, aikido, and Daito ryu so, i'll get there soon.

Right now, I'm building the base for that thread. Tossing out bits of stuff to show things. But, I agree, Ueshiba owed Takeda a lot. I think more than most people realize.

For now, I'll just steer back to the aikido changes stuff for a bit ...

The thing with Tohei is that he states he was learning somewhere else while learning aikido. And he sort of shoots past everyone there in 6 months. Either he really understood Ueshiba (he stated he didn't), his body was a genius at doing, or he was being taught right (either by Ueshiba or someone). Since no one else at the dojo skyrocketed like Tohei and Tohei's own words that he was doing zazen that was "exhausting", it's sort of easy to say that he was learning "ki" elsewhere and not from Ueshiba.

Tomiki had a Judo influence.

Shioda, well, Shioda went back to the Daito ryu influence.

Tohei had the Ichikukai.

Kisshomaru didn't follow his father's footsteps.

Mochizuki had other influences.

Each one looks different from the other. Yet they are labeled aikido. But, really, which student is noted as being closer to Ueshiba's techniques than any of the rest? Okay, which two?

So far, as Ellis noted and it's talked about in Aiki News/Journal, Takuma Hisa tried to keep faithful to Ueshiba and Takeda. In doing so, his organization is labeled more Daito ryu than aikido. And Saito.

However, we are talking techniques and not the art itself. If we had to consider the art itself as Morihei Ueshiba envisioned it, I think we have to look elsewhere than any of his students. That's another thread... coming soon.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:44 AM   #50
vjw
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Re: Which Aikido Are You Doing?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I join that information with recent events where hundreds have gotten out to feel Ark, Mike, Rob, me, and from what I am hearing now Howard.
As luck would have it, I was asked by some DR guys if they could use my dojo for a seminar with Howard Hopkins. It was great to meet him and feel what he has. In my opinion, if you have not felt it you have little or no chance of doing it. I'm looking forward to seeing him again.

I think the internet and forums like this are great for Aikido and the martial arts community. I try to keep an open mind. I read what everyone has to say, decide which people I think have something that can help me with my training, then I plan how to get to meet them. It's frustrating not having them easily accessible but if I want to check them out I believe the onus is on me to go to them. I have no right to demand that they visit me. All I ask is that if I track them down and get my body in front of them, that they show me the goods and help me on the path to getting "it".

Here's hoping that we all get it someday,

Vic Williams
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