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Old 09-08-2008, 01:37 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil Wrote:

Quote:
"Play book" was used as colorful language for what O'Sensei's intention was for the use of Aikido in self-defense situations.
What is your understanding of his use of aikido in a self defense situation?

IMO, it is much, much more esoteric and complex than is shown in any video of physicality.

I love the study of ma'ai. It is a very, very complex subject and one that I can personally discuss for hours (but it bores most people).

I personally think that he cared much more about the "be here...now" aspects of ma'ai and the realationship and awareness that occurs at that point than anything else.

This is a big reason we study sword, jo, and ikkyo...imo, not so much that people go around wacking one another, but because those things help us learn the concept and importance of ma'ai.

Ask any cop that makes a traffic stop. Any soldier that engages people on an interpersonal basis and they can discuss or relate to the importance of understanding ma'ai.

I think much of the importance of aikido is about this one concept...it starts and ends there. I think this is a big part of the lesson that O'sensei wanted to get across.

At least that is what I really get from studying aikido...it ain't about the physicality of fighitng.

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Old 09-08-2008, 03:06 AM   #27
Stefan Hultberg
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Hi everyone

There is much discussion of effectiveness and use "on the street". Many contributions seem to question aikido as realistic self defense. As far as I am concerned aikido is the lamborghini of martial arts, not easy to master, but what a rush when you've figured it out and all 12 cylinders are working in unison to propel you forwards at speeds you never imagined. True, other cars are easier to master and there we can find the workhorses - porsche/karate, audi/jutsu etc.

Now - if people are looking for easy and clear roads towards self defense I would not suggest aikido. In fact I would not suggest a martial art at all - try pistol-shooting or running - the most effective self defense systems. If you must look for effective self defense in the martial arts then by all means try karate, boxing, krav maga etc. At least in these martial arts there is a very clear belief that they represent effective self defense arts which means you can avoid endless discussions of what works on the street.

All this talk about street effectiveness seems to indicate much fear. In that case I would recommend aikido, however. Courage does not come from being able to defend oneself on the street but from the realization that you don't have to. All physical conflicts lead to damage - to yourself or your opponent. Avoid physical conflict!! In terms of self defense I would suggest three main techniques:

1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge

2. run - if conflict is unavoidable one should learn from rabbits, man they can run

3. if nothing else works do a qui-gon, you know the scene where he is fighting darth maul and sits down to meditate while waiting for a door to open. When you are threatened with violence, the smile doesn't work and you can't run - go down in seiza and start meditating - very few thugs would actually strike someone who sits quietly in meditation.

And now, my final point. If nothing works - allow yourself to be beaten up. You'd set an example that would last a thousand years!!

Best regards

Stefan
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:58 AM   #28
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Stefan Hultberg wrote: View Post
At least in these martial arts there is a very clear belief that they represent effective self defense arts which means you can avoid endless discussions of what works on the street.
Love it

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Old 09-08-2008, 05:11 AM   #29
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Stefan Hultberg wrote: View Post
In fact I would not suggest a martial art at all - try pistol-shooting or running -
A common misconception and poor advice you gave above. "pistol-shooting" is a martial art that also needs to be continually trained. Just sticking a gun in someone's hands and asking them to defend themselves under pressure leaves them unprepared kind of like taking some random person, having them read a book on MMA, and then having them walk into a ring.

Quote:
Avoid physical conflict!! In terms of self defense I would suggest three main techniques:

1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge

2. run - if conflict is unavoidable one should learn from rabbits, man they can run
Now, the above two recommendations are great advice!

Quote:
3. if nothing else works do a qui-gon, you know the scene where he is fighting darth maul and sits down to meditate while waiting for a door to open. When you are threatened with violence, the smile doesn't work and you can't run - go down in seiza and start meditating - very few thugs would actually strike someone who sits quietly in meditation.

And now, my final point. If nothing works - allow yourself to be beaten up. You'd set an example that would last a thousand years!!
Now why did you have to go follow up two pieces of great advice with two awful ones?

Regards,

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 09-08-2008 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:53 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I doubt you're characterizing this correctly, though I could be wrong. I'm betting Philip simply means he wishes he had access to raw footage involving Aikidoka so we could actualy see what it looks like in a "hot" situation. If I'm right, there's a huge difference between his intent and wishing people were at risk for the sake of proof.
Probably, so I stand corrected.

Can I also ask for a real rape video to see if the anti-rape sd courses really work?

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Old 09-08-2008, 08:29 AM   #31
Keith Larman
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote: View Post
Now why did you have to go follow up two pieces of great advice with two awful ones?

Regards,

Mark
I think the point was an interspersal of humor with advice.

Or as one of my retired police officer friends like to say, train first in "GUNorRUN-Fu" if your primary concern is self defense. No doubt pistol shooting requires extensive training as well. But if the issue is the "ultimate" self-defense for the street, well, gun-fu wins hands down. Unless of course you're talking about "sawed-off-shotgun ryu". Then of course there is bazooka-jutsu. Hmmm, I also forgot about thermonuclear_device-do...

In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective. And arts like Krav Maga tend to be very focused on precisely the scenarios you run in on the street. Or join the military and try out some of the combatives courses...

Aikido for me was about expanding a toolbox. I've done other stuff and enjoy the difficulty of Aikido on top of what I'd done before. Sure, I think some Aikido folk couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack. Notice I said some, not all. And I've met no shortage of weekend warriors who train intensely on heavy bags in mean, nasty styles who would probably soil their shorts in an actual confrontation. Complex issue to say the least.

But I liked his post. I enjoyed the humor too. For myself I think Aikido has given me an enjoyable puzzle to work on. But then again I started aikido knowing how to give a quick strike to the kidney or a snap kick to dislocate a knee. Handy stuff for when the blend doesn't work quite right...

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Old 09-08-2008, 09:06 AM   #32
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective.
Yes. Be careful not to spray into the wind.
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:29 AM   #33
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Yes. Be careful not to spray into the wind.
And I remember years ago watching a young woman with her first cannister of pepper spray shoot a little up in the air to see what it would be like if she let "just a little" get on her eyes and in her nose... I had suggested that she really didn't need to do that right as she did it... I backed away. She didn't.

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Old 09-08-2008, 11:53 AM   #34
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
In all seriousness, for self-defense pepper spray (with some training of course) can be quite effective.
I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.

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Old 09-08-2008, 01:23 PM   #35
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.
I personally know a guy who rushed a cop while being tased and maced. It didn't slow him down all that much. In fact what put a stop to him was the 3 other cops hitting tackling him and using a nightstick as leverage against the back of his skull.

- Don
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:51 PM   #36
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I've been at the wrong side of a pepper spray (don't worry, I was with the "good guys"). I'd suggest adding some physical skills as back up . Things do not always work like in the commercials.
Do you have any recomendations as far as 'physical skills' that work against pit bulls?
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:20 PM   #37
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Probably, so I stand corrected.

Can I also ask for a real rape video to see if the anti-rape sd courses really work?
That's a bit of a hyperbole. I don't think your average fist-fight equates to this and I think that's what is being described here. I'm usually the first person to tell people how utterly stupid I think fighting is. It's glorified everywhere and has probably been since the first person took power by force, but I get it, fighting and encouraging people to fight is bad...I'd say it with greater force except this is a public forum so my normal language wouldn't be appropriate. Suffice it to say I hate violence...you have no idea how much. I chose Aikido in large part for this very reason.
That said, yes if there is video of someone getting attacked and defending him/herself with having only Aikido as his/her training, I would want to watch it. Not so much (Not at all, just so we're perfectly clear) with the rape scenario, thanks.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-08-2008 at 02:25 PM.

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Old 09-08-2008, 02:28 PM   #38
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Do you have any recomendations as far as 'physical skills' that work against pit bulls?
I've had good success with a bull fighting approach. They charge, you step in and turn and kick them in the ribs/head. Repeat until they are no threat.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:34 PM   #39
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Dude, you tried that against a pit bull?

You are even braver than I thought!

I can't imagine that method working against a well trained attack dog...maybe pits aren't as bright as I thought...hmmmm...

Ron

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Old 09-08-2008, 02:40 PM   #40
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Stefan Hultberg wrote: View Post
1. smile - you'd be surprised how many conflicts that can be avoided by not rising to the challenge
The smile has been my most effective weapon. That and a demonstrative genuine concern for others. I was in a situation where I'm quite sure I was being sized up for a mugging with a homeless guy I "befriended" at SFO airport (I spent 3 nights there one time, who needs a hotel ). It's a bit more complex than just smiling, but that was very much at the heart of it. This is where the ai of love starts to take meaning for me. Demonstrating power only reinforces the might makes right mentality and that's the deeper issue behind violence. If you can stop a conflict with something along the lines of a smile, it implies something far more profound and sophisticated/evolved (in my opinion, anyway).

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Old 09-08-2008, 02:57 PM   #41
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I've had good success with a bull fighting approach. They charge, you step in and turn and kick them in the ribs/head. Repeat until they are no threat.

I can just see myself dodging traffic while dodging and kicking a pit bull. No thanks. I think I'll stick to chemical warfare.
PS. Good luck with a "kick" to the head. I have a friend who is a cop. He said it took three bullets to the head of a pit bull to put him down.

Last edited by gdandscompserv : 09-08-2008 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:32 PM   #42
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Dude, you tried that against a pit bull?

You are even braver than I thought!

I can't imagine that method working against a well trained attack dog...maybe pits aren't as bright as I thought...hmmmm...

Ron
No idea if it was a trained attack dog or even a full breed. I was walking home from school in the 11th grade, a dog that used to growl and bark at me from behind a wooden fence finally broke free. He came rushing at me, I threw my books at him. He backed away and rushed again. Instinct took over and I stepped right past him (like a bull fighter) as he turned to re-engage I kicked him in the ribs. He yelped, backed up, came again, this time I was not so lucky. I lost a better part of my jeans and a bite that required a visit to the ER. I was able to get him to stop biting me by Stomping on his skull with my other foot. At that point fueled by anger I rushed and proceed to put my foot right down the pipe. At this point the dog decided it was time to flee and ran off. I limped to a friends, they called police and one of my parents who took me to the ER.

I remember this vividly because I almost had to get rabies shots. Lucky for me they found the dog. I believe a lot of my ability to win came from my Doc Martins.

That was just one of 3 dog fights I've been in. However, the last two were not severe. One with a poodle dog (who was scared of his shadow) and another with a golden lab who thought I was hurting his master during a friendly football game (Saved by the master).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:33 PM   #43
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post

I can just see myself dodging traffic while dodging and kicking a pit bull. No thanks. I think I'll stick to chemical warfare.
PS. Good luck with a "kick" to the head. I have a friend who is a cop. He said it took three bullets to the head of a pit bull to put him down.
I'd wager he missed and hit neck/jaw/body the first two times. Bullet + brain = dead. A single bullet would kill a grizzly if you could penetrate his skull.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:39 PM   #44
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Hey Don, glad you missed those rabies shots...I hear they're a killer! Worse than the darn dog bite!

Double

By the bye...I doubt then from the description the dog was trained. There is an excellent post on rec-martial.arts from some years ago that describes the pattern for trained attack dogs. And your best chance of surviving them. I'll look it up and post sometime in another thread, if anyone is really interested.

R

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Old 09-08-2008, 04:26 PM   #45
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Not so much (Not at all, just so we're perfectly clear) with the rape scenario, thanks.
Yes, thank you. I concur.

That would bring this discussion that is laced with a touch of violence into the realm of pornographically violent and would be completely unwelcome, as far as I'm concerned.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 09-08-2008 at 04:28 PM.

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Old 09-08-2008, 04:31 PM   #46
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The smile has been my most effective weapon. That and a demonstrative genuine concern for others. I was in a situation where I'm quite sure I was being sized up for a mugging with a homeless guy I "befriended" at SFO airport (I spent 3 nights there one time, who needs a hotel ). It's a bit more complex than just smiling, but that was very much at the heart of it. This is where the ai of love starts to take meaning for me. Demonstrating power only reinforces the might makes right mentality and that's the deeper issue behind violence. If you can stop a conflict with something along the lines of a smile, it implies something far more profound and sophisticated/evolved (in my opinion, anyway).
Hi Matt,
It implies the 'musubi of ai' and has also been very effective for me.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:33 PM   #47
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Phil,

Buddy of mine just sent me the link I'd forgotten about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYX1vthSrnI

This was a GI submission fight I did as a blue belt about 4 years ago. At the time I had about 10 years of TMA and about 8 solid years of aikido practice, and about 1 year in BJJ under my belt (self trained BJJ). So keep this in mind, as my BJJ sucks big time in this video.

I weighed about 225 at the time (not the 265 that Pablo posted!), but I did outweigh him by quite a bit! Pablo is a Purple Belt and a wonderfully skilled, athletic player.

Anyway....

Pay attention to several key things in the video. Look past the fact that it is a tournament and I dive into the guy several times and he stays on the ground, it is a strategy that works well for Pablo.

Here is what is important form a fighting or aikido standpoint.

Watch at at the beginning of the tape. Posture, I stay upright and relaxed, I am not playing the grappling game with him like alot of guys do. Watch his other tapes and you will see that he pulls guard easily when guys bend over.

I deflect his attempts to grip several times remaining relaxed and then move in to the clinch. I do good until I eventually bend over, break my posture then he begins to drag me into the guard. (:25)

We then roll around in the guard. Me with terrible posture trying to gain control of the situation. At about 1:00 I start to settle down in the guard and work on his arms. At exactly 1:20 you see I gain control of his left arm across his body and begin to work on Sankyo. The sankyo creates "some space" and I get away a little. He shrimps back into the guard. (1:33).

I continue to work on the sankyo from around 1:33 - 1:45 when he finally breaks free from it and re-establishes guard.

Today, I don't do that so much as it is wasting my time to get out of this guard. Sankyo was cool and all that, but as you can see it did not do much to improve my position which was still to be in his guard. I a real fight, His buddy would have clocked me right?

Anyway, back in the his guard and at (1:49) I catch his arm again fumble with sankyo and end up in Ikkyo at (1:51) Good ikkyo, but I am still in his guard, so I ikkyo him right back over on his back and we reset...of course...in the guard. I go right back into Sankyo AGAIN!

What you can't see at around 2:00 is that my right hand has his left in Sankyo. You can see it there at around 2:15 as he moves his hips up to attempt the arm bar. Actually I think the Sankyo prevents him from gaining the arm bar...this time I do manage to break free and go back to standing. (2:25)

From an Aikido perspective...I'd say that I was successful some what at this point. I grappled with a very experience (albeit much lighter) opponent and it resulted in my standing and him on the ground.

But this is Grappling so I throw his legs to the side for a sweep and dive right back in on the ground (2:38)

Into side control, then he shrimps right back to the Guard.

This time I do okay, posture up, and go right back to standing with him on the ground. (3:00)

Back to the ground, we roll around a little bit longer, bunch of crap happens..I am searching again for his arm because by this time I am convinced that I am going to submit Pablo with an Sankyo...even though it appears that he is going for a arm bar at around 4:00...I don't care as I am in there hunting for that hand. (Remember, I outweigh him by alot).

Around 4:4 or 4:45 I am on top of him with my right shin across his face. Sort of have "some" control...not much, really unstable actually...but alas...at 4:48 I am going for that arm again. Looks like this time I am going to lay a decent sankyo on him!

Doesn't work, but I do manage to get away again to standing. (success from a combat perspective?) 4:57

then you watch Pablo scoot around the floor while I take a break.

Well 30 seconds of that, then dive right back in for more ground fighting at 5:38. Actually I remember getting kinda frustrated and pissed at this point. (This was a "no time limit" "fight to the finish" grappling fight) So I get pretty violent in his guard trying to upset the situation. At 5:43 you actually see me kinda cross face pablo with a right forearm (Sorry bud).

We screw around a little more in the guard at 6:00 I pick him up and slam him down to loosen him up Pablo messes around trying for a leg bar, then manuevers back into the guard and me right in to his triangle choke for his finish.

How much "aikido" was in there? None if you ask me. Lots of jiujitsu and a few things the aikidoka are familiar with such as sankyo and one ikkyo.

I think the techniques were "okay" they disrupted Pablo, he was not used to them and I used them probably to defend off quite a few of his submission attempts, but he was never really in danger of being submitted by me.

What I think was successful was the fact that I broke away at least three times from the grappling situation and went back to standing.

I try to do this in tournaments as it is my personal philosophy that this is the goal. However, it does not win submission fights, and it does not help if your "job" is to subdue your opponent, which I failed to do.

Today, I don't really waste time on doing the sankyo in this position, as I now know how to use myself more efficiently to get out of the guard (or never get in it), and to gain control of the dominant position before attempting those cool wrist locks.

Anyway, forgot about this and thought some of you might like to see an "aikidoka" doing Grappling.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 09-08-2008 at 04:37 PM. Reason: grammer and syntax

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Old 09-08-2008, 04:53 PM   #48
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd wager he missed and hit neck/jaw/body the first two times. Bullet + brain = dead. A single bullet would kill a grizzly if you could penetrate his skull.
That's not what he said. He said he nailed him in the head all three times.
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Old 09-08-2008, 06:17 PM   #49
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

What was the point of this thread again???


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Old 09-08-2008, 07:39 PM   #50
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Re: Why isn't this showing Aikido as effective?

Kevin,

Thanks for taking the time and effort in sharing that.
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