Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2008, 10:11 PM   #76
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It makes it possible to do solo work shadowboxing with waza in the manner of kokyu undo -- it engages the imaginative mind to put the body in the condition it would be if the opponent were actually there and loading the body in connection.
As far as agreeing that waza is some sort of interactive learning framework, but that's where it ends, because I don't agree with this statement. Certainly, the role-playing has a purpose, but I don't think we're on the same page in that regard. Since there is no opponent in "aiki", there can be no loading (simulated or otherwise) one's "body in connection". Uke and nage are essentially one unit - a 4-legged animal, not 2 separate animals each with 2 legs, that are somehow (tenuously) "connected" via "load". Certainly, there is no simulated loading even in solo-work.

So, I think it bears saying that not everyone does waza the same way, in the same manner, or even in the same spirit. You're perfunctorily equating aikido waza performed in a solo manner to karate kata, which is clearly not the same thing. One is part application of a conditioned body (arguably predominantly nage's role), and part body conditioning (predominantly uke's role), the other is solely body conditioning. To perform aikido waza in the manner of solely body conditioning is, I think, missing the point.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2008, 11:23 PM   #77
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
As far as agreeing that waza is some sort of interactive learning framework, but that's where it ends, because I don't agree with this statement. Certainly, the role-playing has a purpose, but I don't think we're on the same page in that regard. Since there is no opponent in "aiki", there can be no loading (simulated or otherwise) one's "body in connection". Uke and nage are essentially one unit - a 4-legged animal, not 2 separate animals each with 2 legs, that are somehow (tenuously) "connected" via "load".
Does the fact that most of the load of your individual body is being borne on one leg vice equally weighted change the fact that both are dealing with the load? The situation is no differnt with another set of appendages. I agree with the "four legged" argument, aiki works when my movement is of a larger "me," not a separate "him."

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Certainly, there is no simulated loading even in solo-work.
Akuzawa's exercises as related by Rob J.explicitly describe them as simulating load, and those that are not explicit are plainly implied if you look at them :: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=33

Your earlier point on this elsewhere is worth adressing, and which I missed in responding to someone else:
Quote:
Ark will demonstrate shiko with a person on his back (0:34 - 0:44), so he obviously can handle the load. But why doesn't he normally practice that way (with 175-200lbs on his back, I mean), if it's better/faster as you suggest? And how is it that he's acquired the skill to handle such a load---with such ease, no less---without regularly lifting that much weight?
Because the point is not the weight or the strength but of the near irrelevance of muscular strength to handling or delivering load.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
So, I think it bears saying that not everyone does waza the same way, in the same manner, or even in the same spirit.
Since that goes without saying -- why are you saying it ?
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
You're perfunctorily equating aikido waza performed in a solo manner to karate kata, which is clearly not the same thing. One is part application of a conditioned body (arguably predominantly nage's role), and part body conditioning (predominantly uke's role), the other is solely body conditioning. To perform aikido waza in the manner of solely body conditioning is, I think, missing the point.
I don't think am too out of bounds to say that I write little that is perfunctory -- I am usually accused of the opposite sin. I would say closer to the case of Taijichuan as opposed to karate kata. Karate kata lack the concreteness of visualization of a body beyond mine -- the fourlegged beast" that is presnet BECAUSE of the paired waza practice. The concrete visualization is the element that the role-playing aspect provides.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
To perform aikido waza in the manner of solely body conditioning is, I think, missing the point.
Since I do not propose that as sole focus that is of no concern. "Application" is no more divorced from waza, even thought they are quite distinct, any more than an artillery shot is divorced from careful study of the ballistics that put it on target. I think we would not disagree that aiki -- however we respectively undertand it, is just as critical in its nature. Adjustments are always driven by circumstance but the principles will get you close enough for creative adjustment.

I would be the first to say that solo work is not adequately emphasized -- I fell into it by circumstance and frustration. I differ in not divorcing that from the received practice. I also do not think that the conditioning or application roles are predominant in either role of paired waza. Good, proper attacks are critical to the training and proper protective reaction drawing on the same principles as the conditioning that flows in "applying" nage-waza in practice. It is a study for both perspectives, and if it is not done as a critical study from both sides, each of them misses something. This was Kenji Ushiro's main constructive criticism from an Okinawan karate perspective -- working on applying the same principles to good hard attacks would make the nage-waza functin properly. Closing asagao is necessary to making many strikes, and without it half of kokyu-ryoku is missing.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 04:51 AM   #78
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Akuzawa's exercises as related by Rob J.explicitly describe them as simulating load, and those that are not explicit are plainly implied if you look at them
They are described in the AJ article as axis movement methods in which weight is transferred, to transmit mass without commiting mass. No where do I see them being described as simulated load bearing or even weight bearing exercises. To my mind, they're not the same thing either. I think Tim Fong also addressed this argument in that same thread. Since I cannot speak for Rob J or Aunkai methods, I will refrain from making comment on their specific exercises. However, based on my understanding of "generic" exercises of a similar nature, they are neither expressly nor implied as "load bearing" - simulated or otherwise. In any case, I was referring to aikido solo exercises, such as the Aiki-Taiso, and chinkon exercises - which, to my knowledge, aren't "load-bearing" either.

Quote:
Because the point is not the weight or the strength but of the near irrelevance of muscular strength to handling or delivering load.
If neither weight nor strength nor muscular strength are relevant, why bring it up? How is this pertinent to training aiki thru waza? Perhaps you could expound further what IS relevant, if weight or strength is not involved?

Quote:
I would say closer to the case of Taijichuan as opposed to karate kata. Karate kata lack the concreteness of visualization of a body beyond mine -- the fourlegged beast" that is presnet BECAUSE of the paired waza practice. The concrete visualization is the element that the role-playing aspect provides.
I'm not sure I agree with either assessment. Certainly, one could perform solo aikido waza as some sort of conditioning routine... but what exactly would that "condition"?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:04 AM   #79
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Rob,
Bear with me until I get past #4 and then I'll get to the point.

1. Takeda taught without a syllabus.

Quote:
Aiki News Issue 074 - Sagawa wrote:
Takeda Sensei's teaching method was always practical. He never taught us kata (forms).
2. Ueshiba taught without a syllabus.

Quote:
Aiki News Issue 062 - Shirata wrote:
He told us, "Aikido originally didn't have any form. The movements of the body in response to one's state of mind became the techniques."
and

Quote:
Aiki News Issue 062 - Shirata wrote:
Since Aikido is formless, we move according to how we feel.
Note: I've posted in another thread that I think the translational use of the word "feel" is not the best. Intent or intentions works better, I think.

and

Quote:
Aiki News Issue 063 - Shirata wrote:
Ueshiba Sensei didn't have techniques. He said: "There are no techniques. What you express each time is a technique."
and

Quote:
Aiki News Issue 065 - Sunadomari wrote:
Sensei understood the word "takemusu" as the revelation of one of the kami. "Takemusu" is the basis for the creation of all things. Aikido represents the form which creates all things through the body. O-Sensei said, "Aiki is to teach the basis for the creation of budo in which techniques are born as one moves." So you have to understand the basis for the creation of techniques. The basis is kokyu power. There is nothing else. When you develop kokyu power, countless techniques emerge. You can't create techniques only by doing the forms of the past.
3. Hisa taught without a syllabus. (Don't have the AikiNews issue for this. It's there, though.)

4. Kodo and Sagawa? Syllabus or not? I doubt they had one.

So, maybe we're going at this the wrong way. Maybe instead of looking at the current aikidoTM syllabus and trying to infuse aiki back into it ... maybe we should be looking at aiki and how it can drive movement into a technique.

I look at uke as a body with a sphere inside it. The sphere is uke's center. The goal is to roll that sphere in various ways to gain control. The attachment to that sphere is the physical body. When uke attacks and a physical connection is made, kuzushi on contact should happen. Uke's center should be controlled and moving in some direction. As uke's center contorts, so does his/her body.

And we practice using our intent which has an affect upon uke. Depending on the intent, uke moves certain ways. Well, those intents are causing uke's center to contort or move, which causes uke's body to try to adjust. Since everyone moves a bit differently and everyone moves differently each time (with same technique), there will be quite a bit of variation in trying to do a technique. However, there seem to be generalities in movements and controls (As Dan pointed out with sankyo one time).

Okay, to make a long story short -- instead of taking a syllabus that we know was derived by students trying to imitate the teacher, a syllabus that contains mostly just the omote version of aikidoTM, a syllabus that is comprised of making things work without aiki, why aren't we deriving a system of movements (driven by aiki) that link to techniques or controls?

Granted, patching/fixing/adding aiki to the current syllabus is the *easiest* thing to do. But, is it the *right* thing to do?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:14 AM   #80
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

I agree with Ignatius's assessments.

The movement that Eric describes is the movement I spend years "fixing" in people.
His load ideas are great for me-right off their feet in a heart beat.. It is thee reason we see "push when pulled /pull when pushed" axioms -you can substitute the aikido turn when pushed/enter when pulled to your hearts content, it all the same thing. Erick's ideas of movement, fully expressed, leave you open to be manipulated just like everyone else who never trained budo a day in their lives.

The sad thing is it was not that way many years ago. Men entered Budo to learn how NOT to move this way. hence all the testimonies of wanting to join budo to "become strong." Strong meant different, not muscle man strong, strong in a different way. The example or model (push when puled) was meant to demonstrate to the educated budo men how to manipulate and play with the straights, the outsiders, the unknowing, the rubes, others. What it was not was not how to train to think of load and act like everyone else.
It's terrible to enter budo, and get your education in further developing a body like the average joe on the street, that is so easily manipulated. Hence ukemi and the dance; the perfect way to keep training your body to be a victim.

If your goal is to be a master of Budo. Then in a matter of a few years, ukemi-particularly against something like aikido waza- is no longer needed, as Aikido waza will no longer work on you.
Aiki, were it practiced in pairs by people with budo bodies would look more like taiji then modern Aikido.
At the very least, budo people for the most part would remain on their feet and could not be thrown while they were practicing anything related to "aiki" in technique.

As a side note I have had Daito ryu and aikido people train with me who for a time all still "take" ukemi in these pre-conditioned movements that are as predictable as the sun coming up. After a year or two their bodies don't respond to input anymore like the "straights." Push when pulled and potential load becomes almost comical to them. they are no longer "normal" people" Further "anti-aiki" becomes natural in the way they carry their bodies. Being manipulated by aiki becomes an insult
Why? They became budo men.

This other stuff is what they walked away from.

Correctly taught Budo men, would blow up and ruin all the models we currently see practiced in dojo throughout the world. Their movement and understanding would be defining the moment they stepped on the floor.
It's another reason you saw budo men like Wang Chu shin walk onto the stage in Japan and start talking heads. He knew the days of real understanding were on the wain in Japan. And he was right.

Last edited by DH : 09-04-2008 at 08:16 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:18 AM   #81
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The sad thing is it was not that way many years ago. Men entered Budo to learn how NOT to move this way. hence all the testimonies of wanting to join budo to "become strong." Strong meant different, not muscle man strong, strong in a different way.
Huh.

From Aiki News Issue 75
Quote:
Sunadomari wrote:
Morihei who was practicing alone (2) with Sokaku Takeda for one month was concerned with the matter of physical strength and technique. He realized that there was something in Sokaku that he could not handle with physical strength alone. At that time he was in peak condition and had absolute confidence in his physical stamina and ki power which he had developed through his experience on the battlefield in his army days. His confidence had become even more unshakable since his coming to Hokkaido.
Although Morihei was five feet one inch tall he had tested his strength against huge men weighing as much as 250 pounds more than once. Morihei, thus a man of marvelous strength, had never been beaten. However, he was never able to surpass Sokaku, a man of the same height, in technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:24 AM   #82
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Rob,
Bear with me until I get past #4 and then I'll get to the point.

1. Takeda taught without a syllabus.

2. Ueshiba taught without a syllabus.

and

Note: I've posted in another thread that I think the translational use of the word "feel" is not the best. Intent or intentions works better, I think.

and

and

3. Hisa taught without a syllabus. (Don't have the AikiNews issue for this. It's there, though.)

4. Kodo and Sagawa? Syllabus or not? I doubt they had one.

So, maybe we're going at this the wrong way. Maybe instead of looking at the current aikidoTM syllabus and trying to infuse aiki back into it ... maybe we should be looking at aiki and how it can drive movement into a technique.

I look at uke as a body with a sphere inside it. The sphere is uke's center. The goal is to roll that sphere in various ways to gain control. The attachment to that sphere is the physical body. When uke attacks and a physical connection is made, kuzushi on contact should happen. Uke's center should be controlled and moving in some direction. As uke's center contorts, so does his/her body.

And we practice using our intent which has an affect upon uke. Depending on the intent, uke moves certain ways. Well, those intents are causing uke's center to contort or move, which causes uke's body to try to adjust. Since everyone moves a bit differently and everyone moves differently each time (with same technique), there will be quite a bit of variation in trying to do a technique. However, there seem to be generalities in movements and controls (As Dan pointed out with sankyo one time).

Okay, to make a long story short -- instead of taking a syllabus that we know was derived by students trying to imitate the teacher, a syllabus that contains mostly just the omote version of aikidoTM, a syllabus that is comprised of making things work without aiki, why aren't we deriving a system of movements (driven by aiki) that link to techniques or controls?

Granted, patching/fixing/adding aiki to the current syllabus is the *easiest* thing to do. But, is it the *right* thing to do?

Mark
Mark
While I agree with everyhing you said. The approach you are advocating is master level, not student level. There are paths to development of a budo man
1. training a martial body only without waza
2. training a martial body with waza
3. training waza -to develop- a martial body
4. training waza only to take heads.

Its no small wonder that 99% of all martial artists do the worst- paths #3 and #4.
Only 1% even has a clue about #1 or #2.

So that opens up a whole other discussion. Why are most people training to be students-instead of training to be masters.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:29 AM   #83
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Sunadomari wrote:
Morihei who was practicing alone (2) with Sokaku Takeda for one month was concerned with the matter of physical strength and technique. He realized that there was something in Sokaku that he could not handle with physical strength alone. At that time he was in peak condition and had absolute confidence in his physical stamina and ki power which he had developed through his experience on the battlefield in his army days. His confidence had become even more unshakable since his coming to Hokkaido.
Although Morihei was five feet one inch tall he had tested his strength against huge men weighing as much as 250 pounds more than once. Morihei, thus a man of marvelous strength, had never been beaten. However, he was never able to surpass Sokaku, a man of the same height, in technique.
hmm...how does that tie-in with this:

Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing. Sagawa Yukiyoshi

The sad part is that the surface waza, "the tricks" cpature everyones eyes and attention, even good body work. I have yelled at people to stop trying to "move like" this or that guy, stop trying to do waza. Train your body till everyone wants to move like you, and feel like you..

If one were to choose to pursue aiki-most are traveling full speed....in the wrong direction.

Last edited by DH : 09-04-2008 at 08:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 08:38 AM   #84
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mark
While I agree with everyhing you said. The approach you are advocating is master level, not student level.
Huh. That'll teach me about keeping my eyes on the horizon.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 09:24 AM   #85
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,934
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. training a martial body only without waza
2. training a martial body with waza
3. training waza -to develop- a martial body
4. training waza only to take heads.
Question: what are the characteristics of a martial body? trying to figure out the different between martial body and conditioned athlete body.

Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 10:07 AM   #86
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I don't think am too out of bounds to say that I write little that is perfunctory -- I am usually accused of the opposite sin. I would say closer to the case of Taijichuan as opposed to karate kata. Karate kata lack the concreteness of visualization of a body beyond mine -- the fourlegged beast" that is presnet BECAUSE of the paired waza practice. The concrete visualization is the element that the role-playing aspect provides.
Thats what sanchin, when preformed properly with a partner is for.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 10:23 AM   #87
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

There's an interesting bit in the beginning of Hsing Yi Chuan: Theory and Applications in which the author(s) address some of what we're talking about now. I don't have it in front of me now, but to paraphrase:

The core martial quality of a martial artist can be broken down into three factors:
1) speed
2) power
3) technique

Of those three, speed is the most important (if you can move faster than the other guy, you are more likely to avoid what they are doing and at least get an attempt to do what you're trying to do). Then comes power. Even if you don't have much technique to call on, if you can do a few things very powerfully (however that power is derived- li, qi or jin) then what you do will have great effect. The *least* important is technique. If you have absolutely amazing technique but are slow and weak it will do you no good whatsoever.

Now *if* you accept that paradigm and you look at how Aikido is generally studied (in the West) you see an almost fanatical obsession on technique and often almost a rejection of speed and power. Not terribly surprising then that many of us sense that there's "something wrong." It's not like this is some paradigm shifting concept, this is pretty basic, I admit. It's where he goes next that I think is actually quite interesting.

The best training system would be one that was able to develop speed and power by *studying technique*. In that way, you would be addressing all three factors simultaneously. Granted this is in a Hsing Yi book and if you look at how they train, you see that this is basically what they're doing: relatively simple techniques that develop speed and power. The only other system that I'm familiar with that might do this better than Hsing Yi would be Judo (classical, not necessarily Olympic judo ). Oh gosh, what was it that almost to a man OSensei's early students brought with them to their first encounter with him? A strong judo background.

I'd also like to comment quickly on Mark's comments about a lack of syllabus. I think too many people who aren't aware enough about the "shu ha ri" training paradigm find themselves in the "ri" phase and then suddenly reject the steps that got them there. I can think of a lot of people who rejected "forms" and "waza" who got to that place of understanding by doing LOTS of forms and waza. Even in a paradigm like the Aunkai, at first you're doing lots of rote mimicry that needs good correction. Yes the end goal is being formless, but to develop the tools to BE formless, you have to do a lot of formal/specific exercises. Reject forms too early on your own peril.

Finally, to Rennis:

That's a really interesting quote! In my ryuha the third kata you learn is Iwao Nami ("rocks and waves" basically). It's a walking kata in which one is supposed to first embody the sensation of increasing pressure that naturally occurs when one walks up a beach and then the explosive quality of a sub-surface wave that crashes straight up a rock face. Sound familiar?

EDIT: I wanted to point out specifically that when I said, "I think too many people who aren't aware enough about the "shu ha ri" training paradigm ..." I wasn't referring to you Mark, but to those teachers (Bruce Lee comes to mind here) who made statements like you were quoting.

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 09-04-2008 at 10:27 AM.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 10:24 AM   #88
Jim Sorrentino
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Jim Sorrentino's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia, Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Washington, DC
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 243
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Hi Hunter,
Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Thats what sanchin, when preformed properly with a partner is for.
The sanchin I know from Uechi-ryu karatedo is a solo kata. One may practice certain conditioning exercises in sanchin stance with a partner, and one may also have one's sanchin stance and overall form tested by a teacher or knowledgeable partner. Which "sanchin" do you mean? Thanks!

Jim
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 10:50 AM   #89
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Hunter,The sanchin I know from Uechi-ryu karatedo is a solo kata. One may practice certain conditioning exercises in sanchin stance with a partner, and one may also have one's sanchin stance and overall form tested by a teacher or knowledgeable partner. Which "sanchin" do you mean? Thanks!

Jim
Hi Jim,

I am somewhat familiar with the uechi-ryu verson of sanchin, but the isshinryu version that I learned is pretty much done as you described. I just did it "wrong" for many years since no one really told me exactly what I was supposed to be training (until I asked Advincula Sensei why he moved differently).

I am referring to the later in terms of a paired exercise, not in practicing waza/bunkai, but learning how to take those incoming forces from your partner, and not lurching forwards when your partner stops putting pressure onto the person doing sanchin. In the isshinryu verson, it can be done solo, but most of the time you have someone else who knows the kata or an instructor striking/pushing you.

After training with the Aunkai, I no longer preform sanchin with tensed muscles as a "breathing exercise" (though the breathing aspect is important, but not in the way I was originally taught). Rather I focus on maintaining structure while in motion, and grounding incoming forces etc. Thats basically how I do any kata wether solo or with a partner, studying utilizing these body skills rather than waza.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 11:03 AM   #90
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Dan,
Do you believe taichi has the best methods for training a 'budo' body?
Ricky
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 11:29 AM   #91
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
EDIT: I wanted to point out specifically that when I said, "I think too many people who aren't aware enough about the "shu ha ri" training paradigm ..." I wasn't referring to you Mark, but to those teachers (Bruce Lee comes to mind here) who made statements like you were quoting.
No worries, I didn't take it that way. There's actually a good quote by Kodo via Okamoto about what you posted. Let me see if I can dig it up.

From Aiki News Issue 84. Okamoto is talking about practice methods.

Quote:
Okamoto wrote:
Well, I don't know. I think you become able to do what I am doing naturally. Kodo Horikawa Sensei used to say: "Once you reach a level such as yours, you become able to execute your own techniques based on what I have taught you. I didn't learn all the techniques I do now from Sokaku Takeda Sensei." Once you master a certain level and grasp the key points, you become able to execute techniques of your own. Then these techniques of yours gradually sprout branches.
Like you mentioned, the key point is "Once you reach a level ..."

But, it's still tough to substantiate a syllabus when Takeda, Ueshiba, Kodo, Hisa, etc never used one. Yes, they taught some sort of form/technique, but it wasn't driven by a set syllabus. Which is why we have this thread.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 11:54 AM   #92
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 187
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
There's an interesting bit in the beginning of Hsing Yi Chuan: Theory and Applications...

The core martial quality of a martial artist can be broken down into three factors:
1) speed
2) power
3) technique

The best training system would be one that was able to develop speed and power by *studying technique*. In that way, you would be addressing all three factors simultaneously.
Hmm, I think I remember reading that bit in Borders awhile ago...

Anyway, I think the idea that it's "best" to combine all three areas of training hasn't necessarily been proven by history, but rather, the opposite may true. All sorts of disciplines---from sports to music, etc---have included separate training exercises that isolate very specific skills. Not that we can't improve on the past, but things develop the way they do for a reason.

Furthermore, in athletics newer "periodization" training models have shown, in fact, that isolating certain types of training at different times results in greater gains than doing the same thing all the time. (Periodization is certainly better for raw physical conditioning, though it's still debatable whether it also works for mental/tactical skills.)

Last edited by Timothy WK : 09-04-2008 at 12:05 PM. Reason: grammar

--Timothy Kleinert
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 12:05 PM   #93
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,934
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Dan,
Do you believe taichi has the best methods for training a 'budo' body?
Ricky
still trying to figure out what is budo/martial body. is it like a decathlon athlete body? what?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 12:12 PM   #94
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Anyway, I think the idea that it's "best" to combine all three areas of training hasn't necessarily been proven by history, but rather, the opposite may true.
To be perfectly clear, I agree completely. It's been my experience that this doesn't actually work very well. Since the author is talking up the virtues of Hsing Yi training, I can see how this would be the author's conclusion however.

Like you, I'm much more in favor of breaking things out into their components in order to be sure that each part gets the attention it deserved. I spent most of my "Aikido" career developing technique first, speed second and often being told to avoid power. I've spent the last six years trying to balance that back out.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 12:15 PM   #95
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
still trying to figure out what is budo/martial body. is it like a decathlon athlete body? what?
Touch Ark and you will know...

I recall Don Angier commenting at the first Aiki Expo in Vegas that he wished he could send prospective students to a multi-year dance or yoga intensive so that they could be ready to actually study Yanagi Ryu. I think he was getting at the same thing.

You might also do a search for Rob John's "Making fun of TMAs" piece.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 12:51 PM   #96
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Training with Dan on Tuesday was awesome and terrible at the same time.

I felt how to more actively use some of the body skills I've been developing. I think this kind of experience is crucial.

Also, I got to actually feel how to do what I call "Dan's super punch" (which is not very much like any other punch except that the person you hit gets impacted with force).

I have an idea of where I need to go in terms of coming up with waza (aikido and maybe DR) to help facilitate the learning process of internal skills and aiki. I have so much to consider with respect to that, that I haven't been too interested in writing about it until I can try a few more things out over some time.

I can almost see how my aikido class needs to _initially_ change. I'm trying to get a longer term vision so I have something to steer towards. The problem is, once the uke's can attack with internal skills and aiki, I'm wondering what training will be best for the class.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 02:22 PM   #97
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
They [Ark's exercises] are described in the AJ article as axis movement methods in which weight is transferred, to transmit mass without committing mass. ...
No where do I see them being described as simulated load bearing or even weight bearing exercises.... If neither weight nor strength nor muscular strength are relevant, why bring it up? How is this pertinent to training aiki thru waza? Perhaps you could expound further what IS relevant, if weight or strength is not involved?
Pleased to to do it, if you will bear with me. Unfortunately, DH misread or mistated what I said on this point, so let me be clear that I am NOT going to deal with an arm push with push-pull mechanics nor some version of a barbell biceps curl. That is as contrary to my understanding as it is to Ark's or Rob's or Harden's.

Rob J.'s article on "Training ... for martial movement" http://unleashingfong.com/martialmov...ning_Exercises describes tenchijin as "holding up the sky." Ark in the AJ interview specifically describes tenchijin as "The hands split to the side, as if holding an extremely large heavy round object, still pressing upwards as the body sinks to middle low position."

Rob J. also describes the correct sensation of anterior (frontwise) spinal shear in the lower back for most efficient horizontal load bearing/projection. ("It should feel like someone's pulling you forward, but at the same time you're pulling yourself back.") For an analysis of the importance of this see here: http://www.spinalfitness.com/Manual%...UAL-2PART2.pdf You can read through the very interesting specific anatomy and summing the mechanics though every level of the spine or you can skip to the summery of the effects on mechanical advantage of proper shear and posture at pp. 140-142 (printed text, pp. 24-26 of the pdf pagination) (showing the mechanical relationship of forward shear in the lower spine to the effort necessary to bear a lateral loading of 100 pounds). Shear is created by one thing -- unresolved moment.

Ark also says, in the interview. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=701 "Bujutsu is different, it relies on torquing force that isn't plyometric at all. Even as you get older, it doesn't get worse. For example, Sagawa Yukiyoshi, a shihan of Daito Ryu was at his peak in his 70s."

I agree, that "plyometric" approach is inferior to what HE describes. Plyometrics is "conditioning" in the more ordinary sense making muscles stronger and more capable of greater under greater continuous or peak loads through repetitive exercsie. That is not what I am talking about.

I am not talking about "weight lifting" he-man Charles Atlas physique -- i.e. - plyometrics, I am talking about weight-bearing or weight holding and movement of the whole body in that condition. I am talking about weight bearing when the pull-push opposed muscles no longer function after peak exhaustion. Not "train to muscle failure" but learning to do loaded work after conventional muscular failure.

I have illustrated in my linked discussion the way in which the other postures of Ark's exercises specifically and directly relate to actual real work and loading conditions that I have experienced, including shiko (tossing ground-laid load sideways), mabu (projecting load downward as in digging post holes or tamping earth, shintaijuku (lifting and shifting loads overhead from one side to the other as with plywood or kegs of malty consumables), agete (lifting and holding a bucket or tool overhead), and ashi age (extending upper load projection with a lower prop extension (propping (not pushing) with a leg off a ladder to reach that extra little bit further with the upper body).

Weight bearing or holding naturally "connects" everything and that's how Ark ACTUALLY describes it. The term "arch" as he uses it is not mere metaphor -- it is an actual load path following his "piano wire tension." The term "axis" as he uses it is not mere metaphor it's called a thrust line desrcibing the placement of that load path in relation to the ground reaction -- setting up a positive, neutral or negative moment between the placement of the thrust line, the ground reaction and the center of mass.

And what do we call the principle of physics that describes "mass transfer" employing "torquing force"? I'm not inventing anything -- it's what he said and it is what he actually describes.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I agree with either assessment. Certainly, one could perform solo aikido waza as some sort of conditioning routine... but what exactly would that "condition"?
Primarily -- posture and linking with an imaginative loading -- just like Ark's excercises. The advantage being that when done paired both persons have a knowledge of what they are doing and where the dynamic goes, but both can can feel and thus reproduce ACTUAL loading to work on proper posture and refine it if they choose to do the solo work. Once correct mechanics in good postures is learned then adapting mechanics to less advantageous or interrupted postures (henka) becomes possible.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 02:36 PM   #98
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Thats what sanchin, when preformed properly with a partner is for.
Yes -- and it is very effective. Sanchin is asagao, so it directly relates to the kokyu undo that are expressed in the various aikido waza. But the sanchin I have been exposed to was (as Jim said) exclusively solo work. It lacked two things -- a consistent concrete visualization of the relationship required in joining the attack into the movement as one system, and variety in the ways in which those movements may ultimately be expressed.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 03:29 PM   #99
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Pleased to to do it, if you will bear with me. Unfortunately, DH misread or mistated what I said on this point, so let me be clear that I am NOT going to deal with an arm push with push-pull mechanics nor some version of a barbell biceps curl. That is as contrary to my understanding as it is to Ark's or Rob's or Harden's.
Since you have such a great grasp of things, I'm sure you won't mind if people in your area come visit you to learn all this stuff, right? So, for everyone in the southern part of the U.S., they can come to you to learn, right? You'll help them with training aiki...do, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 03:32 PM   #100
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Yes -- and it is very effective. Sanchin is asagao, so it directly relates to the kokyu undo that are expressed in the various aikido waza. But the sanchin I have been exposed to was (as Jim said) exclusively solo work. It lacked two things -- a consistent concrete visualization of the relationship required in joining the attack into the movement as one system, and variety in the ways in which those movements may ultimately be expressed.
Huh, well, do you mind if I point Ushiro sensei in your direction since you have such a firm grasp on sanchin? I'm sure he'll be delighted to know his sanchin might be lacking or that he doesn't have it down just right. Let me know if it works out differently for you than the last person who said something like that to him.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yoshinkai - Beyond the "Hard Style" Label Susan Dalton Columns 8 11-16-2011 07:53 AM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM
What makes Aikido aikido (to you)? tarik General 71 10-02-2007 09:50 AM
Evaluation of "Spirit of Aikido" ChrisMoses General 18 06-25-2007 02:12 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:15 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate