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Old 08-26-2008, 04:06 PM   #101
dalen7
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.
With everything there is a piece of truth - and also something that is not quite accurate.

The above statement can, and Im sure has, led many people to false security about whatever style they are in. (i.e., ground fighting.)

When I was but a young lad...
...in highschool, I was on the weightlifting team.
Weighed about 145lbs and benched 245 (not really all that great...I had sustained an injury keeping my bench down a bit.)

Anyway, I was with a group of guys and we were fighting for fun - one of the guys was on a college wrestling team, and he could not pin me for the life of him...if he got me, then I just popped back up, and I was able to pin him and keep him for a good bit of time pinned, and then he would escape, and I would pin him again.

He was using technique, etc., and I had no technique, just relying on pure strength.
It worked for the most part as I just pointed out. (Technique would have helped me out, of course.)

After he had pinned everyone...except me...he commented on the uncanniness of my strength..

The guy was actually trying to show off, because he was shorter than the rest of us - and for the most part, with the other guys, he made his point that it was about technique.

Point - there are no absolutes in life.
There are pointers that many people get lost in and make an idol.
(So much so with martial arts...people looking for the unreachable holy grail of martial arts - think they found it, and miss the point altogether.)

As Bruce basically said, "be the water".

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-26-2008 at 04:12 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 08-26-2008, 04:25 PM   #102
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post

Why would we? It's purebred aikidoka or newbies asking the question.
To be honest, I'm both.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Was this thread seriously created in 2008?

I have to chime in here. While the art does matter, what matters even more is the training method.

In that regard I place my money on the guy who has been in more real fights, been actually hit more, actually had to respond to 'real' attacks more, and actually used their art against a resistant attacker more.

Essentially it comes down to this, actual experience trumps pretend experience. This is true in all senses. The closer to real your training is (towards the goals you are trying to develop), the better you will be at it.

Everyone here says if you want to train for the ring, you have to train for the ring. That means sparing with the rules of the ring. Does anyone here think you can make a pro maa fighter without sparing and aliveness?

What makes you think you can skip the same type of training and make a street fighter?

What we have here is a religious, faith based argument based on what I would loosely call a Chinese telephone system of training.
I don't think it's so weird to ask this. It's simply a technical question, and people who are not very proficient in a matter may have confusions and questions about it, which is quite natural.

And secondly, of course real fight experience is very important to foresee the result of a fight, but there are obvious things that give you advantage on certain things, and after seeing lots of guys with no ground-fight experience but proficient on other styles struggling against the grapplers on lots of videos, I think it's wise to ask "what would I do in that situation?" even just for the scientific approach and hobbyist curiosity.

And thirdly, I think that there are lots of "used to be high school wrestler" guys who would try to pin you off in a barfight.

I'm just trying to explore what I've been getting into. Call me impatient if you want.
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Old 08-26-2008, 04:32 PM   #103
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Help me here Don...How did you reach this conclusion and what 'argument" are you specifically referring to?

William Hazen
The argument is the whole street vs sport, MMA vs aikido, aliveness vs 'traditional' (I quote it because I do not feel it is traditional training at all.)

As for how I've reached this conclusion. I can not force myself to write out my explanations any further. I'd suggest doing a search for the keyword aliveness and my username. Pick one.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:43 PM   #104
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
The argument is the whole street vs sport, MMA vs aikido, aliveness vs 'traditional' (I quote it because I do not feel it is traditional training at all.)

As for how I've reached this conclusion. I can not force myself to write out my explanations any further. I'd suggest doing a search for the keyword aliveness and my username. Pick one.
Been There Done That Don. I hope you get over your frustration someday. I think Illker represents his question well.

William Hazen
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:48 PM   #105
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

William P wrote:

Quote:
Agreed, but it seems somewhat circular. As far as i can tell, the ability to control someone else is directly proportional to one's ability to maintain control of themselves. It would be impossible to control them if you are not in control of yourself, so then which control is more important (should be practiced more). I'd say control of yourself.
Yes, agreed, this is really the irony of the whole thing. It is really more about a paradigm or perspective than anything else. The GOAL should be to control the other guy. The means to that end is that you have to control yourself. I think too many times we get caught up in carrying over PC and philosophical concepts to martial arts and we start forgetting about what it was that we were really trying to do with MAs to begin with.

But I agree.

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Old 08-26-2008, 05:56 PM   #106
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Salim wrote:

Quote:
I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.
No, I think it is much simpler than that. People come to aikido and most martial arts with no framework for what it is, isn't or what it should be. It is simple, it is not a part of our culture, or wasn't until the last 50 years. Even then it is a very small subset.

No denial, cognitive dissonance, and surrounding yourself with people and situations you are comfortable with is human nature. Couple that with economic law that requires most of us to make a living or have a dojo that at least pays the bills and break even, then you get something slightly less than an honest approach, even if the sensei or organization has the best intention.

Pareto princple is alive and well in everything we do, as well as the ole bell curve. It is simply an element of socialization.

It will be especially rampant in arts in which the measure is highly subjective in nature and there are very few measures that allow for accountability and objectivity.

It just is this way.

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Old 08-26-2008, 07:23 PM   #107
Buck
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.

When an Aikibunnie is embarrassed or challenged beyond there martial abilities, then they begin to question Modern Aikido. They come to the realization about true self defense, much like so many of us have. Aikido is not the all, be all of self defense.

I myself have experienced similar situations much like you have.
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:34 PM   #108
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.
Amen...Shoji Nishio once said something to the effect of "We are here to change ourselves by practicing Aikido, and not just simply to learn another method to destroy each other."

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-26-2008 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:57 PM   #109
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
I don't think it's so weird to ask this. It's simply a technical question, and people who are not very proficient in a matter may have confusions and questions about it, which is quite natural.
Yes, it's natural but the people here who have years of first hand experience in both aikido and grappling/bjj/judo/mma et al. are a bit tired of trying to explain how things work while the ones who base their opinions on what they see on TV try to derail this kind of threads by all means.

Quote:
I think it's wise to ask "what would I do in that situation?" even just for the scientific approach and hobbyist curiosity.
The scientific approach implies experimenting, so sooner or later you have to step on the mat. Sooner the better, imho.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
People come to aikido (...) with no framework for what it is, isn't or what it should be. It is simple, it is not a part of our culture, or wasn't until the last 50 years
And if you can't be sure about translation accuracy....things become more confusing.
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:17 PM   #110
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.
Interesting belief. what fantasies did you have in mind (sounds like I've been getting the wrong training)
Quote:
Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it.
True. Of course some people like that atmosphere <shrug>
Quote:

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight.
Fair enough. Watch what happens to MMA over the next 5-10 years though...
Quote:
Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.
Again go an MMA gym. You'll find very few people who think they're superman - because the training method means they all have their ass kicked at some point. You seem to be assuming a mindset that just doesn't exist in my experience.
Quote:
There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. .
This is true. However I also have found in my own experience - I have gained many more "life lessons" from BJJ than I have from Aikido.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:21 PM   #111
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I.
Just to clarify - are you implying anyone on this thread has been treating people poorly or talking trash?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:54 PM   #112
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I know Michael already covered it well, but I am going to add my two cents anyway...

Cult/Fantasy: well far from it in the world I live and train in. I am a soldier, a warrior. I train soldiers and warriors, and believe me, being a part of a fantasy is the furthest thing from our minds. We train this stuff because we have found value in it.

I travel alot around the world and I have looked up schools on the internet Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Germany, South Africa and all across the U.S. I have never experienced this cult/fantasy you discuss. What I do find is a common bond among guys training with good spirit even though we don't speak the same language.

How much experience are you speaking from? How many BJJ/MMA schools have you been to? How many have you found to be training in things that are unrealisitc and cultish? Please give examples, i'd like to avoid those places.

You know I was thinking on the way home. When I got invovled in aikido years ago, I remember walking into Saotome Sensei's dojo in Takoma Park. If you go there, he has posted in the sitting area, the first thing you see...the rules and expectations of aikido. I read them the first 5 minutes in my aiki career. Never did it say anything about beating grapplers or fighting effectiveness. Had more to do with Budo and refinement of self as a holistic means.

It has never been confusing for me as to what we are doing in ASU at least. Now did I try and turn it into something else...sure. However I reminded myself from time to time that it was MY issue, and not the issue of Sensei or the fact that he gave me false expectations about what it is in aikido that we are here to do.

Phil wrote:

Quote:
There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.
Phil all I can say to the above is take your own advice. I could change Aikido to BJJ/MMA in the above and say "right back atcha".

The BJJ/MMA guys we have on this list, as Michael has pointed out have never criticized aikido categorically or holisitcally. Might we compare methodogies and constructively point out strengths and weaknesses? Yes. However we do it based on our actual experiences in training...not from casual observation from watching TV or reading magazines, which as best I can tell is your level of experience with MMA. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

We have really only tried to be the mirror and attempt to point out the areas that we feel your argument is wrong in. I really do take offense at the categorical dismissal of a whole genre and culture of training that is based on prejudice and bias. It is wrong, and really is not very much in the aiki culture of "seeking to blend and understand" if you ask me.

I am probably not going to comment much more on this topic as it has been beaten to death. I really have no inclination to convert you to MMA/BJJ as I have enough training partners already that want to do it. It is becoming apparent that continued discussion with you on this subject will end up getting personal if we continue down this road.

Good luck in your training and I hope you find happiness, harmony, and peace.

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Old 08-26-2008, 10:18 PM   #113
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Been There Done That Don. I hope you get over your frustration someday. I think Illker represents his question well.

William Hazen
I'm just sick of these threads. There are two kinds of people who post in these threads.

Those who have trained 'traditional' and alive and see its value, and those who have never trained alive and feel they know everything there is not know about what mma/bjj/etc is and isn't.

I try to never say aikido can't do this, or can't do that. I point out that I strictly deal with training methods. You can do aikido and train alive. You can do bjj and train 'traditional'. But if all you do is static armbars you are never going to armbar someone who has even half a desire to hurt you.

See, there I go again. I broke my own rule and started explaining things I've written here at least 50 times.

Hopefully the people who never tried it will just keep getting older, and the younger generation will get out there and learn for themselves and understand the value of a good rough and tumble. At least while they are young enough to get the very valuable experience from it.

And before you ask why I can't just stay out of it....well I'm a fighter :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:21 PM   #114
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.
Phil,

Who said anything about cage fighting or winning trophies? Dude, you're not listening. I'm not sure if prejudice, tainted views from commercialized TV hype is preventing a deeper understanding. BJJ/MMA is not just what you see on TV. The point of the thread is effective self defense, what works and what doesn't work. You totally missed the mark.

Unbelievable!!!!!!
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:23 PM   #115
Keith R Lee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Haven't visited Aikiweb in a few months; a combination of being busy and growing tired of the same discussions coming up again and again. I come back and lo and behold, what do I discover on the front page:

"Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido"

L-O-freaking-L. People really can't let this go can they? I think Michael summed it up best here:

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
here's the question though. When these discussions come up - why is it that *everyone* who has a degree of experience in both Aikido (by which I mean a dan grade in aikido and at least a blue belt in bjj) have the same perspective? is it possible there's something in that?
It's pretty straightforward in my mind (that being said, I fall into Micheal's category above). There are those who come up with elaborate hypothetical situation to determine why their Aikido will work in one of these encounters. Then there are those who just go to a BJJ/MMA gym and try it out and see what happens. Then some of them go on to study BJJ/MMA and Aikido. Considering that these people have the greatest depth of knowledge in regards to the subject, it would follow that people would yield to their greater amount of experience and expertise. But nope, by the tone of a significant amount of the rest of the posters, the people who have years of experience in Aikido and BJJ are just doing it wrong.

Personally, I just got tired of reading this type of thread again and again, and going . Finally, I just got to the point of and just shook my head at the naivete of the majority of posters here who come into these discussion with only Aikido experience. It's just not worth it trying to convince some people. Although Michael, Kevin, Don, Roy Dean when he posts, are to be commended for sharing their knowledge and experience here.

Beyond all that, I would think that Aikidoka would not fall into the trap of Aikido v. anything. The entire point of Aikido is to move beyond conflict. The question should not be how does Aikido fare v. BJJ or whatever? It should be how does Aikido blend, adept, and compliment BJJ?

Whenever someone talks of BJJ or MMA as a brutish, sport-oriented, essentially soulless activity, it is patently obvious to me that such a person has never spent any significant time at a BJJ or MMA gym. They are ABSOLUTELY places of kenshin - the intensity of the training, the bond with other students, the pushing of boundaries, testing one's mettle, pushing beyond what you thought you had within yourself to find something greater - all exist in a BJJ/MMA gym. Perhaps more so than an Aikido dojo. It inevitably depends on the individual and in the manner in which they wish to forge themselves.

Invariably I think this versus, or absolute Aikido or nothing mindset rests on the twin specters of fear and ego. Many Aikido fear BJJ and its ilk in that they don't understand it. They also fear that it is a superior method of actually dealing with a physical crisis scenario which, in turn, assaults their ego. They fear that they have vested too much work into something that might have been a waste of time and effort. These people have used Aikido to transform aspects of their lives and feel as though they are being told it is false. IMO, these people have missed a large part of Aikido training, which is to subsume the self (ego) and banish fear.

There is no need to create a "us" v. "them" barrier between Aikido and combat sports; "traditional" v. "alive." Both have their place in training and, for what it's worth, I find that they seem to compliment one another in many respects.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:26 PM   #116
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
With everything there is a piece of truth - and also something that is not quite accurate.

The above statement can, and Im sure has, led many people to false security about whatever style they are in. (i.e., ground fighting.)

When I was but a young lad...
...in highschool, I was on the weightlifting team.
Weighed about 145lbs and benched 245 (not really all that great...I had sustained an injury keeping my bench down a bit.)

Anyway, I was with a group of guys and we were fighting for fun - one of the guys was on a college wrestling team, and he could not pin me for the life of him...if he got me, then I just popped back up, and I was able to pin him and keep him for a good bit of time pinned, and then he would escape, and I would pin him again.

He was using technique, etc., and I had no technique, just relying on pure strength.
It worked for the most part as I just pointed out. (Technique would have helped me out, of course.)

After he had pinned everyone...except me...he commented on the uncanniness of my strength..

The guy was actually trying to show off, because he was shorter than the rest of us - and for the most part, with the other guys, he made his point that it was about technique.

Point - there are no absolutes in life.
There are pointers that many people get lost in and make an idol.
(So much so with martial arts...people looking for the unreachable holy grail of martial arts - think they found it, and miss the point altogether.)

As Bruce basically said, "be the water".

Peace

dAlen
I know 50 and 60 year old men who practice BJJ and will kick my ass and many young guys my age. It's not about strength necessarily, sure it helps. It's more about thinking smart and application of the technique.

Last edited by salim : 08-26-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:48 PM   #117
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I wouldn't place me in the same category as guys like them. My aikido experience is very limited. I am not a black belt, hell I'm not even close. I still train aikido from time to time, but the time to time is less frequent. This is mostly because my goals have changed to really reflect what I want from martial arts (to be a teacher). I want to teach sport grappling some day. Along the lines of judo and bjj (probably both together) so I have changed my focus to strictly being good at judo/bjj.

While training aikido will probably help my judo or bjj in some way, it will not help me more then just practicing judo or bjj. No more then learning to program in ruby will help my boxing.

Guys like Roy Dean have dedicated their lives to the martial arts. I'd trust what they have said over what I have said. I've done various martial arts my whole life, but besides my kitty TKD black belt, and my upcoming (if I ever learn the damn kata properly) judo black belt, I am a long way from being on that level. I still have many butt kickings to receive, and many more to give.

In terms of tough guys doing bjj/mma/judo. I should post a picture of me. I'm not even close to what anyone would call tough looking. I'll never be a physical monster. I'm always out muscled out cardioed, etc. I do just fine with my witts, tactics, and trickery.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:52 PM   #118
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I think (but cannot prove) that if you could travel in time and bring a 29 year old Shioda Gozo back to today, he would love MMA. He had the core body development that make Aikido what it is, and I'm sure, he could have figured out how that development would apply against BJJ exponent. In fact, there's a post over at Judoforum about a challenge Shioda fought against one of Kimura Masahiko's students:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18518

One of the posters has put up the interview/article...but it's in Japanese. If someone would like to translate it, I'm sure there would be lots of interested readers

I guess what I don't understand is a distinction between on the one hand effectiveness in a challenge/ring situation and on the other "beauty, grace, tradition, self defense, it's only for use against weapons" and all the other stuff aikido is supposed to really be about. It's pretty clear that at one point in time, at least one guy (who was small statured)
1) had orthodox aikido training (from the Man Himself, no less)
2) fought at least one grappler in a challenge and prevailed. If the translation of the article is correct, Shioda broke his opponent's arms.

Obviously if one wants to go all post-modern (or post structuralist if you wish) then aikido can mean whatever you want, and it's whatever you say it is. In that case, you know, then whatever, embrace your nihlism. Then again, if everything is equally true, then my belief that everything is not equally true is also equally true. How's that for paradoxical?

Vulgar relativism aside, if on the other hand one claims to be about the ongoing tradition, then it would make sense to actually, I think, be able to manifest the outward signs of that tradition.

Don,
I'm not an imposing guy either. And I agree that cardio is important. But as for Shioda, there was something at work a lot deeper than technique.

Last edited by Tim Fong : 08-26-2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:11 PM   #119
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote: View Post
Haven't visited Aikiweb in a few months; a combination of being busy and growing tired of the same discussions coming up again and again. I come back and lo and behold, what do I discover on the front page:

"Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido"

L-O-freaking-L. People really can't let this go can they? I think Michael summed it up best here:
to be fair Keith I think this is the first time it's come up in a while - don't be disheartened...
Quote:

Beyond all that, I would think that Aikidoka would not fall into the trap of Aikido v. anything. The entire point of Aikido is to move beyond conflict. The question should not be how does Aikido fare v. BJJ or whatever? It should be how does Aikido blend, adept, and compliment BJJ?
I'll drink to that

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:12 PM   #120
Aristeia
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm always out muscled out cardioed, etc. I do just fine with my witts, tactics, and trickery.
amen to that!

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:13 PM   #121
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
I think (but cannot prove) that if you could travel in time and bring a 29 year old Shioda Gozo back to today, he would love MMA. He had the core body development that make Aikido what it is, and I'm sure, he could have figured out how that development would apply against BJJ exponent. In fact, there's a post over at Judoforum about a challenge Shioda fought against one of Kimura Masahiko's students:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18518

One of the posters has put up the interview/article...but it's in Japanese. If someone would like to translate it, I'm sure there would be lots of interested readers

I guess what I don't understand is a distinction between on the one hand effectiveness in a challenge/ring situation and on the other "beauty, grace, tradition, self defense, it's only for use against weapons" and all the other stuff aikido is supposed to really be about. It's pretty clear that at one point in time, at least one guy (who was small statured)
1) had orthodox aikido training (from the Man Himself, no less)
2) fought at least one grappler in a challenge and prevailed. If the translation of the article is correct, Shioda broke his opponent's arms.

Obviously if one wants to go all post-modern (or post structuralist if you wish) then aikido can mean whatever you want, and it's whatever you say it is. In that case, you know, then whatever, embrace your nihlism. Then again, if everything is equally true, then my belief that everything is not equally true is also equally true. How's that for paradoxical?

Vulgar relativism aside, if on the other hand one claims to be about the ongoing tradition, then it would make sense to actually, I think, be able to manifest the outward signs of that tradition.

Don,
I'm not an imposing guy either. And I agree that cardio is important. But as for Shioda, there was something at work a lot deeper than technique.
Yet he, like most other aikido greats did at some point do sport/alive training.

From wikipedia
"His father was a keen judo practitioner who had his own dojo called the Yoshinkan as well. Shioda junior was a black belt in judo by the time he entered high-school."

I'm not saying this is why he was so awesome. But I am saying that aliveness training will allow you to use other kinds of training more readily. Having a judo/boxing/mma/bjj/etc background or just sparing on a regular schedule or training with aliveness will greatly improve the odds that what you train to do will actually be what you can do.

One more thing again from wiki
"In those days, aiki budo was still a very hard martial art and training at the Kobukan was intense. It was this kind of training that Shioda loved and strove to preserve when he later founded the Yoshinkan. He and other uchi deshi would often go around Tokyo at night picking fights with gangs in order to test out their skills, despite being forbidden to do so by Ueshiba."

Just fits in what I've said. If you want to be good at fighting. You need to train that way, aka aliveness. This is one way to do it, abit a very rough way to go about it.

Ok one more edit. Maybe the problem is that these teachers don't put much importance on what they did to get to where they are. Instead they teach ideals of what they want it to be? I'd say if you want to be like Shioda, you'd have to train like he did.

Last edited by DonMagee : 08-26-2008 at 11:17 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:18 PM   #122
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yet he, like most other aikido greats did at some point do sport/alive training.

Just fits in what I've said. If you want to be good at fighting. You need to train that way, aka aliveness. This is one way to do it, abit a very rough way to go about it.
Yep. Don't worry Don, you don't have to sell me on aliveness


And, I agree , coming to aikido with some freestyle experience seems not to have hurt Tohei Koichi either.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:19 PM   #123
DonMagee
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I'm wondering now if I just advocated going out and picking street fights with gangs as a valid method of learning aikido? LOL

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:49 PM   #124
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Yes, agreed, this is really the irony of the whole thing. It is really more about a paradigm or perspective than anything else. The GOAL should be to control the other guy. The means to that end is that you have to control yourself. I think too many times we get caught up in carrying over PC and philosophical concepts to martial arts and we start forgetting about what it was that we were really trying to do with MAs to begin with.

But I agree.
Eloquently phrased and I agree 100%. I suppose I take for granted that one of the major reasons we train a martial art is to subdue an opponent. I guess some folks have lost sight of that goal. I guess I just assumed that if the only goal was self control, there are many (potentially less dangerous) options, calligraphy, gardening, meditation, etc..

It's the paradox that i find extremely interesting in martial arts and life.

W.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:54 AM   #125
Aikibu
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

And again the "discussion" loops back on itself

Aikido is effective
Aikido is not effective

And on and on and on and on and on.

As long as we're stuck on this semantic duality this discussion will never achieve harmony.

I have been doing all kinds of Martial Arts since I was a boy and in every practice the answer always lies with the man or woman. It is up to me to determine how "effective" I want my practice to be and O'Sensei said exactly the same thing.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-27-2008 at 01:01 AM.
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