Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-22-2008, 10:17 AM   #1
Norton
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20
Offline
Re: Grappling In Aikido

Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:24 AM   #2
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Picture of O'sensei on the ground (newaza). It looks like he is defending himself to me. I think if an Aikidoka found himself on the ground he/she would do something similar to this picture.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	O'sensei newaza.jpg
Views:	334
Size:	75.2 KB
ID:	522  

Last edited by salim : 08-22-2008 at 10:27 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:28 AM   #3
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Definitely. But then, you must train for it. Ground is quite an alien place to be for most aikidoka...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 11:39 AM   #4
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

If most Aikidoka end up on the ground they have lost.

"ground fighting" is a complex technically rich discipline that requires serious study to become competent. That means cross training.

I am sure other folks here would agree that someone like Roy Dean or Micheal Fooks, Don MaGhee and some other would be good resources to find a good "dirtikido" teacher in your area.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 08-22-2008 at 11:41 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 12:11 PM   #5
James Edwards
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 76
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I like to think that you can use Aikido principles when you are on the ground as well. There are probably a few hidden kaeshi-waza somewhere that lets you spot an opening and take advantage of it. But that might be only if there is an opening. Perhaps if a BJJ practitioner gets you in the crucifix there may not be much that you can do.

There's a video of Shioda sensei on youtube somewhere with 2 of his students pinning him flat on the ground. The next moment he brought them down with some sort of ki technique..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 12:12 PM   #6
Norton
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
James Edwards wrote: View Post
I like to think that you can use Aikido principles when you are on the ground as well. There are probably a few hidden kaeshi-waza somewhere that lets you spot an opening and take advantage of it. But that might be only if there is an opening. Perhaps if a BJJ practitioner gets you in the crucifix there may not be much that you can do.

There's a video of Shioda sensei on youtube somewhere with 2 of his students pinning him flat on the ground. The next moment he brought them down with some sort of ki technique..
That's what I actually meant.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 12:47 PM   #7
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
If most Aikidoka end up on the ground they have lost.

"ground fighting" is a complex technically rich discipline that requires serious study to become competent. That means cross training.

I am sure other folks here would agree that someone like Roy Dean or Micheal Fooks, Don MaGhee and some other would be good resources to find a good "dirtikido" teacher in your area.

William Hazen
When an attacker is attempting to rape a women more than likely she will be on her back. It's a fact of reality. This is the most common situation for a women who is attacked. She will need to know some basic principles of wrist locks, arm locks or chokes to subdue her attacker. These locks and chokes can be applied while on the ground or on her back while standing. Perhaps this will force the attacker to stop the attack or allow the women to escape. The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force. The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.

Newaza is important for an Aikidoka. We never can predict a situation no matter a persons skill level. Better to have knowledge of the situation, than not.

Last edited by salim : 08-22-2008 at 12:54 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #8
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force.
I did not quote the entire post, because it's just above. It is, also, with all respect, terribly wrong. Principals of aiki will assist an individual in fighting off an attacker while on the ground (I do not have to refer to the usual suspects - the Itten Dojo, for example, is doing some wonderful work in this area).
But if one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person. If you do not utterly stop them, they will become enraged, just like a toddler will throw a toy that pinched his or her fingers. (See the off-shoots of Model Mugging, Impact, etc., "adrenaline stress training," for examples).
One can go too far in the idea of non-resistance, restraint without brutality, etc. Osensei had a daughter. I would wager a fair amount of money that if she were to have asked her father what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested reaching up, pulling out one of those long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination). Maybe I'm wrong. But if he suggested less than that, it would not bespeak well of him as a father - thereby not teaching his daughter something that would actually work.
Best

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 02:54 PM   #9
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
When an attacker is attempting to rape a women more than likely she will be on her back. It's a fact of reality. This is the most common situation for a women who is attacked. She will need to know some basic principles of wrist locks, arm locks or chokes to subdue her attacker. These locks and chokes can be applied while on the ground or on her back while standing. Perhaps this will force the attacker to stop the attack or allow the women to escape. The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force. The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.

Newaza is important for an Aikidoka. We never can predict a situation no matter a persons skill level. Better to have knowledge of the situation, than not.
Salim,

I highly suggest you attend some rape prevention courses. If a woman is being attacked (and Rape is about power) she needs to do everything she can to survive. Her attackers well being is the least of her worries.

A woman on her back and outweighed by a hundred pounds did not get there with her consent. She is more than likely already suffered some serious physical trauma and under some form of extreme emotional and/or physiological duress (and is perhaps already in shock.)There are specific simple guidelines to follow under such circumstances and perhaps the least of these is some type of choke or "wrist lock from the guard"...

Very few Dojos teach Rape Prevention the way it should be taught. Indeed 90% of the Rape Prevention Classes I see in Dojos are highly dubious. Your best bet is to invite a Local Law Enforcement Agency to come teach a class. Then perhaps you can exchange ideas about how to incorporate your "style" of practice into their training.

There is much much more to rape prevention than Waza my friend.

Back to the subject.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 04:02 PM   #10
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Salim,

I highly suggest you attend some rape prevention courses. If a woman is being attacked (and Rape is about power) she needs to do everything she can to survive. Her attackers well being is the least of her worries.

A woman on her back and outweighed by a hundred pounds did not get there with her consent. She is more than likely already suffered some serious physical trauma and under some form of extreme emotional and/or physiological duress (and is perhaps already in shock.)There are specific simple guidelines to follow under such circumstances and perhaps the least of these is some type of choke or "wrist lock from the guard"...

Very few Dojos teach Rape Prevention the way it should be taught. Indeed 90% of the Rape Prevention Classes I see in Dojos are highly dubious. Your best bet is to invite a Local Law Enforcement Agency to come teach a class. Then perhaps you can exchange ideas about how to incorporate your "style" of practice into their training.

There is much much more to rape prevention than Waza my friend.

Back to the subject.

William Hazen
I have attended some rape prevention seminars. Date rape is the most common form of rape and these women find themselves on their back. So yes, a good arm lock or wrist lock for an unruly boyfriend to get off of you may work.

I'm not an expert and that's not the point here. Only to suggest that it's an option for self defense.

Last edited by salim : 08-22-2008 at 04:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 07:41 PM   #11
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

The Problem with being on your back, mounted by your opponent is that he controls you. Until you reverse that situation, or escape that mount, no wrist lock or choke technique is going to help you.

You need to learn proper jiu jitsu. That is positional hierarchy. Escaping the mount, passing the guard, shrimping, side control, establishing dominance, and/or escaping. This is all basic JJ.

Shime Waza, (Chokes), joint locks, pins, etc...will not work until you can get a a postiion to do so.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:18 PM   #12
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The Problem with being on your back, mounted by your opponent is that he controls you. Until you reverse that situation, or escape that mount, no wrist lock or choke technique is going to help you.

You need to learn proper jiu jitsu. That is positional hierarchy. Escaping the mount, passing the guard, shrimping, side control, establishing dominance, and/or escaping. This is all basic JJ.

Shime Waza, (Chokes), joint locks, pins, etc...will not work until you can get a a postiion to do so.
Think again, this video proves otherwise. You mean if a women is in this position, flat on her back she can't perform an arm lock. Not sure about your Jujutsu or Aiki methods.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/straight_armlock
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:43 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Well, one, Roy is in the Guard, not in the mount. So yes, in the hierarchy of positional dominance, he is one up from the mount and has control of his opponents hips. So yes, indeed "possible".

However, have you ever really tried an arm bar from the guard on a fully resistant opponent? Especially one that is bigger than you? Probably not the smartest thing to attempt on the street.

I am a purple belt in BJJ and compete internationallly, I don't get these but every so often, AND we are not allowed to hit, AND we are segregated by weight class, have nice mats, gi's and are rewarded for fighting on the ground.

That said, as a teaching tool, the Arm bar from the guard is a wonderful thing to teach. It teaches you many things that are much more important than getting the arm bar itself.

This is one of the basic techniques we start teaching at the white belt level. Why? not because we expect that students will readily be able to go out on the street and use it, but because it starts developing the ability to move the hips.

Watch the video carefully and you will see that the very first thing that happens in you break spinal alignment by underhooking the leg and moving your hips off to the side. This serves to off balance your opponent (principle of irimi) and his weight is no longer going straight down on you.

More often than the arm bar, you are able to execute a sweep and put yourself in a more dominant position, which allows you to more better control the guy and possibly escape or apply chokes, or by time.

Being able to do this, however, takes a fair amount of practice to develop the skills, the attack chains, and the timing to be able to execute jiujitsu from the guard. It is why we BJJers spend so much time in the Guard.

From the guard for a self defense perspective, I would tend to teach cross collar chokes, strikes, shrimping skills, and teach them to stand up in base once they created distance, way before i'd spend time on teaching the Arm Bar from the Guard as a method of self defense.

Again, it is a good base technique for learning JJ fundamentals, and is an excellent foundation to build attack chains upon. As a money maker....not likely for a female being over powered by a guy...too technical and way too much risk involved, and there are many other things that should be taught first that are more "high percentage" and safer.

Wrist locks, arm bars and such might be useful in buying you time or creating a space in the fight, however they don't typically end a "real" fight or rape, they tend to piss the guy off more.

However, a good blood choke executed shuts things down. I'd put my money on establishing a position that I could execute a blood choke way before ever using an arm bar.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:47 AM   #14
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

as always.....what Kevin said.

From a self defence point of view (i.e. training soemone who is not going to commit to grappling full time but needs to "cover the base") the focus should be on the baics - which means positional control. Options to improve position with a view to regaining ones feet.

Wristlocking someone from underneath is certainly not a goer.

Roy may well hit an armbar from guard, but then he's a BJJ black belt I believe. So if we're looking for Aikido solutions as per the original poster - this ain't it.

I also think it's a mistake to post those photos of o'sensei doing and average head and arm choke and claim that that's what most aikidoka would do. Just cause Ueshiba had an idea doesn't mean it's passed to the rest of us vicariously through our grading certificates. If you look at those photo's and realise that you've never trained that technique - guess what it don't matter if it's "in aikido" if you haven't personally trained it a bunch.

Having said that, I've never understood the obsesson for finding the "aikido solution" for a problem aikido never traines to deal with. It's a bit like asking what the football solution to a fastball is.

long story short, if you want to know how to deal with a grappler on the ground, you have to go put in some time at a ground grappling school. Trying to reinvent ground fighting seems terribly....inefficient. Particularly when groundfighting typically utlisies many aiki stragegies anywho.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:53 AM   #15
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Ilker Topcuoglu wrote: View Post
Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Sure.... use a jo, no I am not cheating, jo is very much part of the syllabus.

Failing that... learn how to T3H GR4PPL3 [tm].

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 04:20 AM   #16
tuturuhan
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 244
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
But if one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person. If you do not utterly stop them, they will become enraged, just like a toddler will throw a toy that pinched his or her fingers.

. Osensei had a daughter. I would wager a fair amount of money that if she were to have asked her father what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested reaching up, pulling out one of those long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination). t
There is no doubt that the grappler's initial "take down" is a force to be reckoned with. As such, can one defend against it?

The "intent" of the grappler is to take you to the ground and force a submission. It is not about "killing". I believe that prior to WWII, O'Sensei and many like him understood that the "foundation" of martial practice was to "kill or be killed". It had nothing to do with morality. It had everything to do with the "responsiblity" that goes with killing. After WWII, and with the continued sanitazation of aikido by it's current inheritors, this "martial blackness" was hidden and remains covered.

As such, many of the young folk "look" only at the "outer layer" of aikido and see "lacking". They believe their is a necessity for going outside of aikido. They do not understand, that "aikido" is a complete martial art. It espouses the "intent" of universality".

At this level of "advancedness" all "complete martial arts" are the same. In other words, everything "they" do we do. Everything "we" do they do, providing there martial art is also complete. (Unfortunately, my naming it, "in this instance aikido" many have mistakenly boxed themselves into a perceived corner.)

There are striking, kicking, grappling, throwing, locks, pressure points in aikido. It's just that the "many" don't see "it".

As such, does the aikidoist have the "tools" to defend against the take-down? Yes...He has the bokken, the jo, the staff, the sword. Any of those weapons will assuredly kill. Or as Ellis says, he can use the "four inch hairpin".

Now, as for all the other "groundwork" in the grappler's limited tool box, once I rip out his throat with the penetration of my "trained fingers", his attempted submissions don't matter much.

It is the "intent", not the limitation of the technique.

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 05:06 AM   #17
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

wow

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 08:12 AM   #18
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well, one, Roy is in the Guard, not in the mount. So yes, in the hierarchy of positional dominance, he is one up from the mount and has control of his opponents hips. So yes, indeed "possible".

However, have you ever really tried an arm bar from the guard on a fully resistant opponent? Especially one that is bigger than you? Probably not the smartest thing to attempt on the street.

I am a purple belt in BJJ and compete internationallly, I don't get these but every so often, AND we are not allowed to hit, AND we are segregated by weight class, have nice mats, gi's and are rewarded for fighting on the ground.

That said, as a teaching tool, the Arm bar from the guard is a wonderful thing to teach. It teaches you many things that are much more important than getting the arm bar itself.

This is one of the basic techniques we start teaching at the white belt level. Why? not because we expect that students will readily be able to go out on the street and use it, but because it starts developing the ability to move the hips.

Watch the video carefully and you will see that the very first thing that happens in you break spinal alignment by underhooking the leg and moving your hips off to the side. This serves to off balance your opponent (principle of irimi) and his weight is no longer going straight down on you.

More often than the arm bar, you are able to execute a sweep and put yourself in a more dominant position, which allows you to more better control the guy and possibly escape or apply chokes, or by time.

Being able to do this, however, takes a fair amount of practice to develop the skills, the attack chains, and the timing to be able to execute jiujitsu from the guard. It is why we BJJers spend so much time in the Guard.

From the guard for a self defense perspective, I would tend to teach cross collar chokes, strikes, shrimping skills, and teach them to stand up in base once they created distance, way before i'd spend time on teaching the Arm Bar from the Guard as a method of self defense.

Again, it is a good base technique for learning JJ fundamentals, and is an excellent foundation to build attack chains upon. As a money maker....not likely for a female being over powered by a guy...too technical and way too much risk involved, and there are many other things that should be taught first that are more "high percentage" and safer.

Wrist locks, arm bars and such might be useful in buying you time or creating a space in the fight, however they don't typically end a "real" fight or rape, they tend to piss the guy off more.

However, a good blood choke executed shuts things down. I'd put my money on establishing a position that I could execute a blood choke way before ever using an arm bar.
It was just one scenario, but surely not the only solution. Eye gouging, biting are always options. Maybe it want work. You have to try if it will help save you. The possibility is there for one who knows how to execute the technique. Yes it takes some skill. Learning these techniques in Aikido and BJJ both take time and a lot of practice.

In my Aikido dojo we have a black belt BJJ instructor teach us basic techniques. I have by incident pull off an arm bar in our dojo against an unruly student who became angry and wanted to challenge me. I was in the guard and just reacted, it worked. Could I do it again with precision exactly, maybe not. His arm was just there, saying lock the hell out of me. His reactions were pretty slow. Perhaps that was more of the reason I was able to execute the arm bar. Would I try that on the street, probably not. Would I try this if I were in a grassy area or dirt field, maybe. A person has to know their surroundings and learn what's applicable during a particular altercation. Self defense training for every possible situation takes years, maybe never. The key is to make you mind and body accustom to conflict trauma. This will at least hopefully give you the advantage in an altercation.

I've been training in Aikido for about two years. BJJ for almost 7 months. I'm new to both martial arts. Prior to Aikido or BJJ, I trained in Burmese Bando for 5 years reaching a brown belt. Bando is the sister to Muy Thai. Bando has grappling also and we learned chokes and arms locks, but applied differently. Martial Arts isn't new to me. I'm pretty athletic and have a natural deposition for the arts. I learn fast.

Having the knowledge of physical altercations and being familiar with body trauma, prevents unfavorable emotional reactions. A person needs to use their head and think as quickly as possible. Our BJJ instructor always tells the female students that this technique may help you in an assault. It's no guarantee.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 09:04 AM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Joseph wrote:

Quote:
The "intent" of the grappler is to take you to the ground and force a submission. It is not about "killing".
Are you implying that a grappler is not capable of killing? Yes, "intent" is an interesting concept for sure. A Greco Roman guy knows quite a bit about killing with his bare hands, I would venture to say alot. Neck Cranks, slams to the back of the neck etc....BTW he has access to the exact same tool box everyone else does. They just choose to be sportsman in most cases and stick to the rules of competition. They do know how to turn a fireman's throw into a incapacitating thing if they desire.

Martial blackness is hidden in all arts, to include the sport centric ones. they tend not to focus on that level of "competition" like the so of the so called DO or SU arts that seem to like to take a moral high ground, yet claim to NOT be about "competition". Yeah....Right! Competition comes in many forms. I tend to like the directness and honesty that at least arts like G-R and Judo take towards the whole competition/lethal technique thing.

Joseph Wrote:

Quote:
As such, many of the young folk "look" only at the "outer layer" of aikido and see "lacking". They believe their is a necessity for going outside of aikido. They do not understand, that "aikido" is a complete martial art. It espouses the "intent" of universality"
Is it really "complete"? If so, why do you and I spend so much time outside of it? I am assuming from what I see of what you practice that you spend a great deal of time doing other things.

That said, philosophically, where does aikido begin and end? If you took that argument, then I'd buy it, as for me, my BJJ practice is Aiki.

A blanket statement though that "aikido is a complete art" really doesn't say much and doesn't really help beginners much.

It does though help the instructor that wants to shield or control knowledge or wield warped power over his student though.

Joseph wrote:

Quote:
There are striking, kicking, grappling, throwing, locks, pressure points in aikido. It's just that the "many" don't see "it".
yes, they don't see it because their instructors don't teach it, or they don't teach it correctly and if they DO teach it, they don't teach them the realitive value of these things as it relates to the whole of the fight because they have never really used it, or tried to in a non-compliant environment.

If it is "hidden" it is hidden because the instructor chose to hide it, not because the students fail to see it.

Joseph wrote:

Quote:
Now, as for all the other "groundwork" in the grappler's limited tool box, once I rip out his throat with the penetration of my "trained fingers", his attempted submissions don't matter much.
This one is my favorite....

I am always curious...don't you think that the grappler has access to these things as well in a fight?

curious, how much skill does it really take to train fingers? No one has ever been able to show me. I must not be exposed to very good "finger" skilled guys, so it is possible I am talking out of ignorance.

Sure, I get it, there are guys that train their hands to apparently reach in and rip out muscles, throats etc... Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have talked a great deal about this and it is believable.

I think Dan would agree with me though that positional dominance and control is key to even using those tools.

Don't make the assumption that grapplers have such a limited tool box, that just ain't so, he has access to the same basic tool set you do in that situation.

However, if he can grapple better than you, well you will be dealing with the same crap you are trying to institute on him.

Been there done this argument/logic a more than a few times...on the mat.

Joseph wrote:

Quote:
It is the "intent", not the limitation of the technique
Well I agree, intent is very important, but it is not the only thing that is important.

I intend to be a millionaire.
I intend to be president of the US one day.
I intend to master BJJ and Aikido

However, techniques, tools, and sometimes just plain luck matter.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 09:22 AM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Salim,

Sounds like you are on the right track in your training, IMO. It took me 15 years to figure out what you are figuring out in a short amount of time! (2 years Aikido, 7 months BJJ).

I am sure we would be in find much common ground on the mat for sure! Much can be lost in digits!

Mike Fooks does a good job of summarizing what I am trying to convey.

I tend to focus less on techniques such as the arm bar, but look at the whole of the situation. As you progress through Blue Belt, and advance up to purple you will become less concerned with individual techniques and more about position and setting up things two, three, and four moves ahead. You will also find that your set ups allow you multiple options in every position. that is arm bar, guillotine, and sweep from the same basic position.

It is natural to learn a new technique and then go out and look for a way to implement it...it is how we learn BJJ! Then your buddies shut it down and you have to go find a new one...and the cycle continues!

good luck and keep up the post, They are good!

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 09:50 AM   #21
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Principals of aiki will assist an individual in fighting off an attacker while on the ground

one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person.

One can go too far in the idea of non-resistance, restraint without brutality, etc. Osensei had a daughter. what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested, pulling out long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination).
Oh oh...! Another MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido immortal monster of a thread thing. Gotta love 'em

I think this unresolvable question will live on for ever until:

1. Someone bastardizes* Aikido successfully for MMA fights (*don't know if the word is not exceptable, no insult intended. I am not intending to be profane. But the word works well with being without parent connection. Pls. excuse it, if it's seen as profane) .

2. All those who take both MMA and Aikido, and lean more to MMA than Aikido realize the two are worlds apart. That each came into its own at different points in time and culture. One is an art and the other is a combative sport. MMA train for a sport fighting competition, Aikido was never intended to do that. The composite Aikido that does compete wasn't intended for an Aikido venue and not MMA. MMA wasn't around when that style of Aikido was created. Therefore, those who want to make a living fighting or enjoy fighting as done accordingly to MMA rules, do MMA. Those who are looking for something else who isn't about becoming a fighter, but other things go to Aikido. Not everyone wants to do a Hell's Kitchen because they enjoy cooking.

Now shifting gears. If in a real self-defense situation on the street there is a possibility the situation will go to the ground. But keep in mind where Aikido came from. It came from real combat tested martial applications that where effective in killing the other guy. Not from a sport where the loser walks away from a ring with rules, ref, and judges that has to be commissioned to take place, without a medical staff at hand. Aikido techniques designed from that to be use in a time and place when there was a shift in Japanese society, long before MMA. This means that Aikido does have validity in a self-defense situation both like Ellis and William has said. More than likely, depending on your training in either MMA or Aikido you are attacked on the street you are likely to have the advantage. And that is what it all comes down to anyway, where you take them to the ground, or it goes to the ground, or it can't go to the ground or it doesn't go to the ground. The advantage I see Aikido has over MMA in a situation where you are standing is control, like using a come-a-long on a drunk.

The other thing I see like Ellis pointed out is the intensity of the situation being faced and using what ever you have because you are fighting for your life. I doubt very highly that if an Aikidoka happened to found him or herself on top of an attacker their instincts wouldn't kick in to "ground and pound." That is the natural instinct to punch viciously at the face of the guy on the bottom who was trying to kill you. In an intense life or death situation you don't what your going to do, or how you will react. Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.

MMA so specific doesn't train to deal with the high-pressure life or death victim situations. Aikido doesn't generally, but it is more adaptable to do so. There are a variety of techniques, and Aikido's techniques are combat life and death stuff. It is those techniques are not taught that way.

So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. What really beyond the talk either is ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim. What really matters is you don't lose at any cost no matter what you do, whether it be Aikido, or MMA or what ever you need to do to get the job done . Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing.

Last edited by Buck : 08-23-2008 at 09:59 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 10:12 AM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Phil,

Lots of over generalizations and assumptions I think. Specificallly about what aikido is/isn't and what MMA is/isn't.

that said, okay, you have your opinion and definitions and I can respect that.

Couple of comments:

1. You essentially state that MMA came from sport and aikido came from combat. Not necessarily true.

What you define as MMA (UFC type venues), actually are composites of many things (hence the MMA label). All traditional Sport systems, Greco-Roman, Judo, Free-style wrestling, TKD, Sambo, BJJ...all have their roots in Military or Martial Arts.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), which BTW had much influence on it from Heckler-Strozzi Sensei, and The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) are true MMA philosophically based "Arts" have sport aspects to them, yet are designed to build warriors and instill/refine warrior ethos. Oh yea, and give some really cool skillz.

Drawing a line between sport and combat arts simply is not that easy and too dismissive concerning the importance that "sport" and competition play in the bigger picture of development of a person/martialist.

Phil wrote:

Quote:
Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.
Well some of us know pretty much what we will do if we are still alive and have capacity to do something about it. Because we train with this endstate in mind. It is all about the endstate and goals of your training.....NOT the method (Sport VS DO/SU).

Phil wrote:

Quote:
So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, it is in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. All that matters is if ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim you don't lose at any cost. Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing?
Well apparently alot of Aikidoka DO care, as this is discussed alot here on aikiweb. Do I? not really, as from my definition of MMA aikido is methodology I use, as is BJJ, as is Judo, as is Greco Roman, as is Aunkai...all apart of MMA.

don't lose at any cost?

hmmm, well now lets get aiki philosophical...

"not lose at any cost"....that is really not part of the aikido philosophy now is it?

We have four basic scenarios:

1. Win/Lose
2. Lose/Win
3. Lose/Lose
4. Win/win

Aikido is really all about striving for Win/Win if you ask me. It may not be obtainable all the time, but I think that is why we study aikido.

If you are really concerned with this as a method to preserve life or "win at any cost", I really wonder why you waste your time with such a inefficient delivery mechanism for self defense. I'd go invest in more sophisticate defense systems and weaponery.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 10:32 AM   #23
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Oh oh...! Another MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido immortal monster of a thread thing. Gotta love 'em

I think this unresolvable question will live on for ever until:

1. Someone bastardizes* Aikido successfully for MMA fights (*don't know if the word is not exceptable, no insult intended. I am not intending to be profane. But the word works well with being without parent connection. Pls. excuse it, if it's seen as profane) .

2. All those who take both MMA and Aikido, and lean more to MMA than Aikido realize the two are worlds apart. That each came into its own at different points in time and culture. One is an art and the other is a combative sport. MMA train for a sport fighting competition, Aikido was never intended to do that. The composite Aikido that does compete wasn't intended for an Aikido venue and not MMA. MMA wasn't around when that style of Aikido was created. Therefore, those who want to make a living fighting or enjoy fighting as done accordingly to MMA rules, do MMA. Those who are looking for something else who isn't about becoming a fighter, but other things go to Aikido. Not everyone wants to do a Hell's Kitchen because they enjoy cooking.

Now shifting gears. If in a real self-defense situation on the street there is a possibility the situation will go to the ground. But keep in mind where Aikido came from. It came from real combat tested martial applications that where effective in killing the other guy. Not from a sport where the loser walks away from a ring with rules, ref, and judges that has to be commissioned to take place, without a medical staff at hand. Aikido techniques designed from that to be use in a time and place when there was a shift in Japanese society, long before MMA. This means that Aikido does have validity in a self-defense situation both like Ellis and William has said. More than likely, depending on your training in either MMA or Aikido you are attacked on the street you are likely to have the advantage. And that is what it all comes down to anyway, where you take them to the ground, or it goes to the ground, or it can't go to the ground or it doesn't go to the ground. The advantage I see Aikido has over MMA in a situation where you are standing is control, like using a come-a-long on a drunk.

The other thing I see like Ellis pointed out is the intensity of the situation being faced and using what ever you have because you are fighting for your life. I doubt very highly that if an Aikidoka happened to found him or herself on top of an attacker their instincts wouldn't kick in to "ground and pound." That is the natural instinct to punch viciously at the face of the guy on the bottom who was trying to kill you. In an intense life or death situation you don't what your going to do, or how you will react. Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.

MMA so specific doesn't train to deal with the high-pressure life or death victim situations. Aikido doesn't generally, but it is more adaptable to do so. There are a variety of techniques, and Aikido's techniques are combat life and death stuff. It is those techniques are not taught that way.

So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. What really beyond the talk either is ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim. What really matters is you don't lose at any cost no matter what you do, whether it be Aikido, or MMA or what ever you need to do to get the job done . Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing.
Phil,

What would you call Jeet Kune Do, which supersedes MMA by almost 30 years? It's a martial concept. Mixing different martial arts is nothing new. Use what is useful for defending yourself.

Bruce Lee never really competed, but mixed his arts years ago. MMA sport is mostly over zealous, commercialized media hype. Mixing martial arts for self defense purposes is praise worthy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 11:34 AM   #24
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Phil,

What would you call Jeet Kune Do, which supersedes MMA by almost 30 years? It's a martial concept. Mixing different martial arts is nothing new. Use what is useful for defending yourself.

Bruce Lee never really competed, but mixed his arts years ago. MMA sport is mostly over zealous, commercialized media hype. Mixing martial arts for self defense purposes is praise worthy.
I don't see how JKD applies. Both MMA and Aikido flow. JKD can save your life too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 06:16 PM   #25
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Salim,

Sounds like you are on the right track in your training, IMO. It took me 15 years to figure out what you are figuring out in a short amount of time! (2 years Aikido, 7 months BJJ).

I am sure we would be in find much common ground on the mat for sure! Much can be lost in digits!

Mike Fooks does a good job of summarizing what I am trying to convey.

I tend to focus less on techniques such as the arm bar, but look at the whole of the situation. As you progress through Blue Belt, and advance up to purple you will become less concerned with individual techniques and more about position and setting up things two, three, and four moves ahead. You will also find that your set ups allow you multiple options in every position. that is arm bar, guillotine, and sweep from the same basic position.

It is natural to learn a new technique and then go out and look for a way to implement it...it is how we learn BJJ! Then your buddies shut it down and you have to go find a new one...and the cycle continues!

good luck and keep up the post, They are good!
I see your point and understand. Point well taken. Thanks and good luck also.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 06:16 PM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
What makes Aikido aikido (to you)? tarik General 71 10-02-2007 08:50 AM
Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center? ChrisMoses Training 130 03-17-2007 03:21 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:25 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate