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Old 08-04-2008, 11:41 AM   #51
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg

Last edited by salim : 08-04-2008 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:48 AM   #52
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Another great clip from Roy Dean using Aiki principles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y
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Old 08-04-2008, 12:03 PM   #53
Zach Trent
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post

Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount
Do wha??!!

I guess if you want to train for reals... but that is over the line in my training book. I really like your response Then it becomes "exactly how realistic would you like for training to get, my friend".

Last edited by Zach Trent : 08-04-2008 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:19 PM   #54
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Great Kevin, you have your opinion on Aikido and I have mine, agian I say Aikido and grappling are two different arts, and this comes from a professional Law enforcement Officer and Aikido Instructor.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:48 PM   #55
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu?
Maybe. What is the meaning of "Aiki principles" for you?

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Old 08-04-2008, 04:25 PM   #56
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Aiki to me is unbalancing your opponent and redirect his/her own inertia, giving a person the ability to throw the opponent if possible. Applying submission techniques when possible.
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:08 PM   #57
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Daniel Blanco wrote:

Quote:
Great Kevin, you have your opinion on Aikido and I have mine, agian I say Aikido and grappling are two different arts, and this comes from a professional Law enforcement Officer and Aikido Instructor.
no problem, everyone is entitled to their own perspectives and opinions, of course.

this comes from a Professional Infantryman, aikidoka, and Army Combatives Instructor

Have a great day!

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Old 08-04-2008, 11:12 PM   #58
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Salim wrote:

Quote:
Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.
I use the principles all the time in BJJ and Judo. The challenge in implementing the principles is the difference in timing and the assumed parameters and rules, that is what messes you up when you are learning things. Once you can come to grips with these conditions/parameters, you can start exploring the prinicples of aiki in everything that you do.

Even in everyday life, from walking down the street, carrying boxes, lifting, opening doors...it is universal.

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Old 08-05-2008, 07:33 AM   #59
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Zach Trent wrote: View Post
Do wha??!!

I guess if you want to train for reals... but that is over the line in my training book. I really like your response Then it becomes "exactly how realistic would you like for training to get, my friend".
Yea, I put myself in weird situations now and again. Usually some guy wants to 'prove' something to me so I tell him to just do whatever he wants to. I'm not a bad ass or anything, I just know when these guys don't have what they think they do, and I want to help clear up any delusions they might have. Or more importantly, I hope one day I meet one that clears up all my delusions.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:44 AM   #60
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Is anyone familiar with Jiai Aikido located in San Diego, CA? It's my understanding they have a wonderful program, which includes grappling in their Aikido. There website has the below advertisement.

http://sandiegoaikido.com/video.asp?s=1

I would like to hear from individuals who have train in their dojo. Perhaps I will be in the area visiting and would like to workout in their dojo.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:15 AM   #61
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Wink Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu?
Just watch Mifune Kyuzo Sensei!!
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:11 AM   #62
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

When one sits and contemplates about the similarities of Aikido and BJJ, often you will find that BJJ is Aikido on the ground. The arm locks, wrist locks, motions of the body on the ground, just seem to be too familiar with Aikido. I know a lot of hardcore traditionalist Aikidoka will disagree. A slew of individuals will think I'm some sort of sport MMA advocate. I'm more intrigued with the application of arts that are similar. Arts that allow a defender to subdue an attacker without brute force or necessarily strong kicks and punches. Subduing an attacker to either make them stop or enough to escape is awesome, without having to beat them to oblivion. It's a peaceful way to resist attacks.

Often when a women is attacked, usually the women will find herself on her back. In that case a good arm lock or wrist lock would allow the women to subdue her attacker, maybe long enough to escape. I think Aikido and BJJ for purely self defense are great arts to learn for subduing an attacker.

Really if you remove all the prejudices, forget about sport MMA/UFC hype and closely examine BJJ, there is so much in common. Watching the body movements, arm locks, wrist locks, you see Aikido on the ground. Sure the philosophical/spiritual differences can be argued. I see BJJ just as peaceful as Aikido. BJJ is not about brute strength, powerful kicks and punches much like Aikido is not. Anyone can learn Aikido or BJJ, women and children. You don't need tremendous strength. Your attacker could be 100lbs heavier and you would have the ability to restrain them whether standing or flat on your back with both Aikido and BJJ. Restraining the individual in a peaceful way is humane.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:51 PM   #63
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Salim Wrote:

Quote:
Often when a women is attacked, usually the women will find herself on her back. In that case a good arm lock or wrist lock would allow the women to subdue her attacker, maybe long enough to escape. I think Aikido and BJJ for purely self defense are great arts to learn for subduing an attacker.
Yes...I agree...lots in common for sure.

However, as I posted in another thread a few minutes ago. This can illustrate a big difference in methodolgies between Aikido and BJJ.

In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble. Ellis talks alot about this in the other thread.

Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?)

using it as a strategy by a woman to subdue and get away...no..I agree with Ellis....you piss him off and have left no permanent control measure in place.

Anyway...positional dominance is foremost, and this is what I think is most distinctive difference in training BJJ and Aikido in the methodologies. Lots in common in principle, but we in aikido tend to over look this vital component or at least view it of lesser importance sometimes when training principles.

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Old 10-28-2010, 02:03 AM   #64
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Is nobody here practicing, suwari waza in depth anymore! Juat a point .

In Budo
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Old 10-28-2010, 03:56 AM   #65
Michael Varin
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I know this was from a few years ago, but I'm not the one who revived it...

Consider:
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble.
And:
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?) [emphasis mine]
The evidence is practically slapping us in the face!

For those interested in training and using aikido techniques practically, why don't we train them in the context in which they were meant to be effective?

Also worth considering is why the rear naked choke and the guillotine are the only "bjj" submissions that haven't significantly dropped out of the class of effective mma techniques, while the positional dominance taught in bjj is still highly relevant to mma.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 11-17-2010, 01:41 PM   #66
Richard Stevens
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

This is merely opinion, but to me, if you are training with "martial" intent and haven't added any basic groundwork to your training you're left with a glaring hole in your skill-set. Even light cross-training in judo or jiu-jitsu can make a big difference in your state of mind if you found yourself in a situation where you were forced to the ground.

My father was a pretty decent Judoka in his day and I learned a good deal from him when I was younger. I definitely don't consider myself a judo ace, but I feel comfortable going to the ground. I'm not foolish enough to think I can submit someone from my back, but I feel confident I can avoid any major damage while trying to get back to my feet or transitioning to a dominant position.

Obviously, most of us want to stay on our feet, but if we ended up on the ground wouldn't it be good to know how to get back up?
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:31 AM   #67
Dazzler
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Is nobody here practicing, suwari waza in depth anymore! Juat a point .

In Budo
Howdy Andrew

I'm sure there are plenty here that practice Suwari waza, although whether it is 'in depth' depends on what you mean by this..

Suwari waza and grappling, or more specifically ground grappling are to me very different things indeed.

Due to the diversity of opinions of what is and isn't Aikido on this site there will be those that will disagree with this - I can only speak from personal experience and always happy to read alternative views and consider them of course.

(This assumes your point was to draw some parallel between the topic and Suwari waza)

Regards

D
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:50 AM   #68
Dazzler
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Salim Wrote:

Yes...I agree...lots in common for sure.

However, as I posted in another thread a few minutes ago. This can illustrate a big difference in methodolgies between Aikido and BJJ.

In BJJ you spend alot of time learning positional hierarchy and dominance...this is important. It ain't the wrist lock that matters in BJJ, it is positional dominance. Wrist locks are secondary. In fact they may get you in trouble. Ellis talks alot about this in the other thread.

Wrist locks typically are used as a control device to loosen a grip, to take a weapon, or to gain temporary compliance for another more permanent control measure. (Cuffs maybe?)

using it as a strategy by a woman to subdue and get away...no..I agree with Ellis....you piss him off and have left no permanent control measure in place.

Anyway...positional dominance is foremost, and this is what I think is most distinctive difference in training BJJ and Aikido in the methodologies. Lots in common in principle, but we in aikido tend to over look this vital component or at least view it of lesser importance sometimes when training principles.
Hi Kevin

As usual I agree with much of what you say and always appreciate how you measure Aikido against the reality of your experiences.

I'd just like to pick out your comment that positional dominance is foremost in BJJ where as I think you are suggesting that in Aikido there is more focus on the wristlock itself.

I'd say this could be correct for some but not for all.

In my own experience the wristlocks etc are used to express the underlying principles of Aikido, for instance kamae or position in relationship to uke is particularly relevant to your post ..as is maai - range or distance.

So for instance a wristlock deployed with good kamae leaves tori in a better position than uke and with correct maai at the right range rather than cranking on a lock while in reach of ukes other weapons systems.

So really - positional dominance - the same thing.

Whats neat is that this doesn't in anyway detract from the effectiveness of the lock...a good lock deployed in a good place is just as good...if not better than a good lock deployed in a bad place.

Not everyone trains with this in mind - but from the quality of many of the posts on this forum - a whole lot of people do.

Regards...and apologies if this is topic drift.

D

ps - just seen date of your post ..a zombie thread restarted...sorry to quote you so far off your original...but you are still around so I'll leave this here as food for thought

Last edited by Dazzler : 11-18-2010 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:45 AM   #69
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Hey Daren,

Yup still around here! I agree, positional dominance...or at least the principles of positional dominance are exactly the same.

In most of what we do in aikido and BJJ we are trying to affect the balance/center...or better yet, the spinal alignment of our opponent to such a degree that they are at a positional disadvantage.

For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

Of course, as you put weapons in the mix, you might intially be focused a little more on the immediate area of the wrist to control, but I believe that this is a short term tactical consideration and a more lasting/permanent solution is gaining positional dominance through control of the spine or core.

I think though, to split hairs....that the pedagogy of aikido tends to allow students to focus on the extremities and what we are doing with them and acheive some success and miss this point.

Whereas BJJ pedagogy tends to put focusing on the dominance of the core (basic or literal positional dominance).

In the end though, yes, I agree if you are training correctly you reach the conclusion that "positional dominance" is the commonality to success in real control of a person.

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Old 11-18-2010, 11:52 AM   #70
Marc Abrams
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Hey Daren,

Yup still around here! I agree, positional dominance...or at least the principles of positional dominance are exactly the same.

In most of what we do in aikido and BJJ we are trying to affect the balance/center...or better yet, the spinal alignment of our opponent to such a degree that they are at a positional disadvantage.

For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

Of course, as you put weapons in the mix, you might intially be focused a little more on the immediate area of the wrist to control, but I believe that this is a short term tactical consideration and a more lasting/permanent solution is gaining positional dominance through control of the spine or core.

I think though, to split hairs....that the pedagogy of aikido tends to allow students to focus on the extremities and what we are doing with them and acheive some success and miss this point.

Whereas BJJ pedagogy tends to put focusing on the dominance of the core (basic or literal positional dominance).

In the end though, yes, I agree if you are training correctly you reach the conclusion that "positional dominance" is the commonality to success in real control of a person.
Kevin:

Excellent point. As you know, I strongly emphasize that focusing on the extremities is a futile act. Control of the center IS the key to success, regardless of how you access and gain control over someone's center.

Stay Safe!

marc abrams
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:06 PM   #71
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Awesome Aiki(Aikido) techniques used in newaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8
Sorry , this video is impractical in showing kote gaeshi as a defence against a pin.. Why would anyone pinned on their back face up try a kote gaeshi movement when there are openings for various arm locks?Any seasoned grappler /judoka would avoid the kote gaeshi attempt.Similarly the average judoka would not apply kote gaeshi.May I also state that in general Judoka do not use kote gaeshi in ne waza.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:11 AM   #72
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:
Never knew Newaza ever existed in Aikido.
Never knew O'Sensei ever demonstrated Newaza.

But this photo seems to be of O'Sensei in his younger days.
Any Newaza photos of O'Sensei in his golden years??
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:15 AM   #73
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Sorry , this video is impractical in showing kote gaeshi as a defence against a pin.. Why would anyone pinned on their back face up try a kote gaeshi movement when there are openings for various arm locks?Any seasoned grappler /judoka would avoid the kote gaeshi attempt.Similarly the average judoka would not apply kote gaeshi.May I also state that in general Judoka do not use kote gaeshi in ne waza.
Yeah,. According to Judo competition rules, only joint-locks on elbows are allowed. So no Kote gaeshi in Judo Newaza.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:22 AM   #74
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
For me at least, say for example, Kote Gaeshi, it is less about what you are doing to the wrist than it is using that as an access point to the spine...if you are doing it as an aiki exercise.

.
Yeah. I agree. For me, Kote gaeshi is not about twisting the wrist joint. It is about conquering Uke's centre & controlling his movement through the circular motion of his fore-arm. Not about the wrist.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #75
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Really if you remove all the prejudices, forget about sport MMA/UFC hype and closely examine BJJ, there is so much in common. Watching the body movements, arm locks, wrist locks, you see Aikido on the ground.
Is that "Aiki" in BJJ??
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