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Old 08-21-2008, 04:42 PM   #76
MM
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
So, regarding my post yesterday about roto-hammer style aiki...obviously it's hard to know for sure from a description, but how does it strike you folks? Proto-aiki, aiki, or non-aiki? I would put this kind of practice under the heading of intuited aiki, but do any of you feel confident enough to say whether it's one way or the other?
Take care (and thanks for the great food for thought),
Matt
My cousin and uncle are union carpenters. My uncle retired a few years back. Both can out-hammer me any day of the week. Both can work all day with hammers and have done so for weeks and months on end. Neither has aiki. They have found a way of working that is streamlined and efficient, but it isn't aiki in my view.

I've worked the farm with them years ago and you either find that streamlined and efficient way to work or you tire very quickly. But it never got me any closer to aiki.

But, that's all my experience. Other's might find things differently.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:08 PM   #77
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sort of gives "Make your own Aikido" or "Make Aikido your own!" a whole new twist eh?
Actually Dan, YOU have given me a whole new twist on things. YOU have given me so many things to think about. When you begin your uchi-deshi program let me know so I can send my son.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:16 PM   #78
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Actually Dan, YOU have given me a whole new twist on things. YOU have given me so many things to think about. When you begin your uchi-deshi program let me know so I can send my son.
Well I try. And I also at least try...to be nice about it. Its only budo after all. Life's too short. I prefer to make friends.
But listen , the heck with your son man, the learning curve on this is way shorter than what we were told. And its the best way to grow old, while kicking butt, that I know of. You need to get here or elsewhere and just start. And as time is marching by , there are more and more "groups" of people practicing this, so that in very short time it will have hubs or local practice groups. Thats sort of plan I keep formulating in my own mind.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:52 PM   #79
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My cousin and uncle are union carpenters. My uncle retired a few years back. Both can out-hammer me any day of the week. Both can work all day with hammers and have done so for weeks and months on end. Neither has aiki. They have found a way of working that is streamlined and efficient, but it isn't aiki in my view.

I've worked the farm with them years ago and you either find that streamlined and efficient way to work or you tire very quickly. But it never got me any closer to aiki.

But, that's all my experience. Other's might find things differently.
What you described fits with my own experiences in construction, but I'm not talking about pacing and muscle-building. I'd describe your cousin and uncle at being good at using their muscles. I'm trying to use something else to get my results, relatively poor though they may be.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:48 PM   #80
TomW
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
My cousin and uncle are union carpenters. My uncle retired a few years back. Both can out-hammer me any day of the week. Both can work all day with hammers and have done so for weeks and months on end. Neither has aiki. They have found a way of working that is streamlined and efficient, but it isn't aiki in my view.

I've worked the farm with them years ago and you either find that streamlined and efficient way to work or you tire very quickly. But it never got me any closer to aiki.

But, that's all my experience. Other's might find things differently.
That's my experience too, Mark. I was a carpenter for 10+ years, did it all, foundation to finish. I could pound nails all the day long, pack lumber, spread and finish concrete, you name it. I actually am a small, wiry, now former-Seabee who, back in the day, could pack plywood up a ladder like a squirrel. It wasn't because of aiki.

At the time, I worked with a guy who could make every one feel like they were standing still with out even working up a sweat. That wasn't because of aiki either. Sure was a great guy to work with though.

Tom Wharton

Kodokan Aikido - Puttin' the Harm in Harmony,
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:40 AM   #81
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Well and it's a disconnect between constantly trying to filter everything into what you think you know . .which is why I don't necessarily buy into the "intuited" aiki . . smacks too much of aiki as religion/philosophy with these tenets that can be everything/nothing or whatever in between that you want . .

Again, using O-Sensei as the model, it seems he concretely built up his physical skills and was then able to apply them to his worldview. I don't see there being shortcuts around this, but I do see the roadmap to these physical skills as having been garbled, misinterpreted and otherwise dilluted by those that had/have the full range of the best and worst of intentions.

So, then these physical skills, they have to be taught - where I see more disconnects is what they are versus aren't (and the biggest is "technique" versus a conditioned body - the hallmark of the internals AND, to my limited perspective, what enables all "technique"). And in being more and more exposed to "internal" training versus what's been shown more typically in mainstream aikido, judo, karate . . and in other types of competitive grappling . . "this stuff" is the goods, in my opinion. And it must be shown. And then obsessively practiced on your own . .and level set with other people. Rinse, repeat. I don't see any other way that makes any kind of sense.

And as some say, "But aikido (or insert any other art) is different!!" . . Sure, every art has it's own take on the basic skills, but in my opinion, you have to make sure that it's training and optimizing the basic (to advanced, depending on breadth and depth of how the skills are used in your art) "internal training" that most all Asian arts seem to be built around.

One could could just appeal to authority based on murky debate skills, rank . . or you could use this wonderful gift of mass communication to further your ability to seek and research . . get looking and meeting up, keep questioning - even the "so-called experts", form your personal truths from experience (and give yourself the opportunity to have experiences that give you exposure, really!), rather than what you get told and/or want to believe.

But then maybe it comes back to what you want . . .do you want to validate your own thoughts and impulses as "truth" somehow (is it true because of your belief, or do you test it)? Do you want to participate and belong? Do you want to be great?

Can you do all of these things? What is the appropriate role of intuition? To me, intuition comes from a logical leap based on what I know and have tested to be true . . so I keep questioning, seeking, testing . .trying, failing and trying again . . what a wonderful journey, though

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #82
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
To me, intuition comes from a logical leap based on what I know and have tested to be true . . so I keep questioning, seeking, testing . .trying, failing and trying again . . what a wonderful journey, though
I agree. Intuition usually comes from pre-existing sets of understanding in which new connections suddenly make sense.
Similar to the idea of soto (external/superficial) and uchi (internal/substantive) teaching, I think revealed and intuitive learning serve different functions. I think they should be considered as two aspects of the same thing: learning. One without the other is far more subjective and dependant upon unknown factors than both used together.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:41 PM   #83
Blake Holtzen
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well I try. And I also at least try...to be nice about it. Its only budo after all. Life's too short. I prefer to make friends.
But listen , the heck with your son man, the learning curve on this is way shorter than what we were told. And its the best way to grow old, while kicking butt, that I know of. You need to get here or elsewhere and just start. And as time is marching by , there are more and more "groups" of people practicing this, so that in very short time it will have hubs or local practice groups. Thats sort of plan I keep formulating in my own mind.
Okay, okay. I will be the one to start the Pensacola, Florida hub of training as soon as Dan lets me come by and train... and many years of practicing.

Shoot, I would even be the go-between for Dan and Erick to see if it is possible to amicably reconcile their "opposing" views.

Yes, I know, it is dangerous but, " Blessed are the peacemakers".

So, lets see, Im 25 now...train hard for 6-7 years... that will be 32... then hope I have some skills bythen and then start a group. I can see it now...

-Blake
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:12 PM   #84
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've worked the farm with them years ago and you either find that streamlined and efficient way to work or you tire very quickly. But it never got me any closer to aiki.

But, that's all my experience. Other's might find things differently.
No, everybody who has verified skills agrees that just doing manual labor doesn't magically give you skills, but that won't stop people without a shame gene from continuing on as if they haven't been totally shut down at every turn.
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:55 PM   #85
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
No, everybody who has verified skills agrees that
4 out of 5 Dentists surveyed say .... that effectively shutting down a point in discussion requires something a bit more articulated than variations on the theme of "Nuh-uh!" or cheerleading the like of "Sweep the leg, Johnny!"
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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
... just doing manual labor doesn't magically give you skills, but that won't stop people without a shame gene from continuing on as if they haven't been totally shut down at every turn.
Ad baculum. Let me briefly summarize the shamelessness and give you a better opportunity to put the shame on. Probably do me good. Thank you sir! May I have another? '

Mindful of the limitations of the forum, over a period of time, drawing from a consistent interpretation of traditional sources (revelation) (Baien, basic mechanics etc.) interacting with my own physical experience (intuition), I have :

1) stated a physical basis for applied KI (moment/angular momentum)

Rebuttal? Show me wrong .

2) from that I have described a functional operation of aiki, in terms both spatial and temporal, deeply dependent on physical juji -- 90-degree resonant/harmonic relationships between fundamentally cyclic processes (static and dynamic -- to which gyrodynamics apply )

Rebuttal? Show me wrong.

3) I have suggested the functions of aiki in exploiting the human biological processes of balance and reflexive action, offensively and defensively.

Admittedly, the third point is still in development. But I am open to criticism. Gimme what you got.

4) The IMA exercises specifically describe putting the body into simulated load conditions -- or in very specific and identifiable shapes that form ideal load paths. It was formerly common that people developed the body in exhaustive labor simultaneously with having to actively defend oneself. That situation has largely vanished in urban settings. It is increasingly rare elsewhere. Fewer suffer routine physical attack. Fewer do that kind of hard labor.

The earlier pattern of harder more violent living naturally predisposed SOME people for an intuitive grasp of the martial application of those things used for other purposes -- once exposed to the martial applications (a point missed by all who commented on the point). No one said that hauling haybales makes a god-warrior.

You may join in Harden's rhetoric and an uncritical opinion to oppose the point -- but his own admitted history fully supports it. Any lack of basic "body skills" in the post-modern urban settings is much more simply explained than the inexplicable loss of arcane, mysterious knowledge. Rule of Occam. It isn't arcane or mysterious, it just requires careful attention and lots of hard, awkward work. Various attempts at IMA are all systematizing an historical evolution. It is simpler to recapitulate the elements of the historical process. Chop wood -- carry water. Zanshin.

If you have a different conclusion then simply show where the above argument(s) may fail. There are details in my blog or any number of posts.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-23-2008, 10:04 PM   #86
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Admittedly, the third point is still in development. But I am open to criticism. Gimme what you got.
OK, if you insist. You, and your teacher apparently, insult Harden but you keep talking instead of responding to his direct questions to you on that point. No one agrees that manual labor, salsa dancing, farming, or anything else provides the right foundation, which should surprise no one, but you keep on. No one agrees with you about any of it, no one vouches for your skill at anything other than endless typing, but you keep on. Worse, whenever anyone tries to provide substantive details that people might be interested in, you come and pollute it with your arrogant delusional babbling to the effect that you know it all already. There is something seriously wrong with you on an emotional level.

Until recently I was of the opinion that providing information in public is all good because it should benefit the truly interested even at the expense of feeding the egotistical loons who only want to improve their own standing in whatever little pond they swim in. But your demeanor is so utterly off-putting that I would advise Dan H., Rob John, Rob Liberti, Mike S (who wisely seems to have abandoned these discussions) and anyone who has any real information on how to train internal skills just to take it all underground at this point. It's actually worth it to make it harder for everyone else to find just because of people like you. You don't know anything, and it deserves to remain that way.
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:56 AM   #87
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
No one agrees with you about any of it, no one vouches for your skill at anything other than endless typing, but you keep on. Worse, whenever anyone tries to provide substantive details that people might be interested in, you come and pollute it with your arrogant delusional babbling to the effect that you know it all already. There is something seriously wrong with you on an emotional level.
If you were addressing the third point -- then you didn't. Rebuttal? No? I thought not. Ad hominem. Emotional? Interesting choice. I do not know a very great deal; but I know what I see; I categorize what I feel. I find ideas that fit what I see and feel. I don't know anything else beyond that. I suspect no one else does either. I laid out my four points of "shameless" discussion on elements that fit the "revelation" and "intuited" aspects of the thread. I simply asked that if my arguments are so trivial, then please rebut them.

So to avoid offense, let me see if I get the rules right. The standard for discussion is:

1) everyone agrees in advance
2) everyone must be "vouched" for agreement before speaking
3) anyone who does not agree is "delusional"
4) to say anything in violation of these rules is "arrogant;" and
5) everyone with a differing point of view (gasp) is emotionally unstable and incoherent ?

Do I have that right?

Why discuss anything?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:45 AM   #88
DH
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

No Erick, the rules are-I would imagine- to say something that actually makes sense, or hasn't already been talked to death by third year students. Then, people will respond in hopes of all parties holding up their end of the discussion.
I think it's -generally- agreed that you spending allot of time offering detailed analysis, and exhaustively long explanation with nuance and analogy is essentially meaningless. Allot of people are growing suspect that you don't know what you're talking about regarding aiki. So reading more ideas of whether its a revelation or intuitive -from your perspective has no meaning to those readers. Now your reducing yourself to debating the debate points or the discussion style.
I keep asking you to help us all out and allow me or someone who is known to possess these skils and can display aiki to come down so you and your teacher can teach me or them where and what we lack. IThen all these discussions can move forward, and the vetting process for you will be over. I don't know why you abhore the vetting process. It is PURE budo, all the way. It always was a vetting process. Folks heard so and so teacher had "it" and were told by word of mouth, then in print medium, now by the net. Aikiweb is just another version of budo people talking and researching. Just like it always has been with budo people.
Did you talk to your teacher yet?

Last edited by DH : 08-24-2008 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:16 PM   #89
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well actually I think Ueshiba was pointing to Daito ryu aiki when he said Aiki as one with the universe.
There were some articles in AikiNews from Daito ryu people that talked about harmony and blending type stuff in Daito ryu. Wish I could remember where it was. Somewhere before issue 72 for sure.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Thus I believe many aiki bunnies stole and misrepresented the
Someone here on AikiWeb (I think) said something about fluffy aikibunnies and fire-breathing aikidragons. Unless we're talking about Sluggy's rabbit or Monty Python's rabbit, I think having some substance to aikido is a better way to go.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was just re-reading some of Stans work where he re-states that these famous deshi mostly maxxed out at 4 or 5 yrs of part time training as Ueshiba was traveling allot.
Amazing how short of a timeframe they had before becoming very good. Even Ueshiba only took about 5 years before he was teaching and being looked at as a great martial artist.

Speaking of ... no one ever talks about Takeda and how his skills progressed. I've looked but there's very little information on him really. Just how great he was, but he had to have progressed like everyone else. The Takeda in 1915 when he met Ueshiba had to have been less than the Takeda of 1920. Five years is a long time. I just wonder why none of the big 5 ever talked about how Takeda changed. I find that weird.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I just don't see Ueshibas skills as different from them. Just a different "expression" from them.
Its all....aiki. Just not THAT aiki.
Probably why Ueshiba could look at Shioda and Tomiki and still say they were doing aikido even though they "looked" completely different in techniques.
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:29 PM   #90
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Amazing how short of a timeframe they had before becoming very good. Even Ueshiba only took about 5 years before he was teaching and being looked at as a great martial artist.
Some good points Mark. I think it's important to remember that nearly all of the guys you're referring to in the above quote were already seriously good *competitive* judoka though before ever meeting Ueshiba. The training path in aiki is (or at least could be expected to be) different if you step onto the mat not knowing how to take a forward roll, or if you're a yondan from judo college. It's not JUST 4 years with the right guy.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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