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Old 08-20-2008, 01:18 PM   #26
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
we'd
You got a mouse in your pocket?
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:55 PM   #27
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
(and again it is funny how one group simply speaks what they have experienced, and another group claims the first group "has issues"...I had THOUGHT we'd gotten past all that)
I tried many groups. I tried to take light ukemi, fully resistive ukemi, to just relax, to concentrate on my center, to flow, to be a dummy to be be thrown after attacking, to be "live" and make adjustments as I attacked, to let bjj people just randomly attack me, to trying aikido with kung fu type attacks, you name it, I probably tried it.

All of those groups of people had issues too. There is no escaping it. I can say that in my experience, the ones that are based in the feedback of the physical reality turn up to more "alive" tend to have fewer issues over all.

Rob
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:07 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
You got a mouse in your pocket?
?? sorry, my humor bone must be broken. That one went right over my head.

I used we simply because I thought most of the participants in this discussion had moved on from those attitudes. Then again, I've been away for a bit actually working, so...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:09 PM   #29
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Hey Rob, I know what you mean. I look back on my posts even on this topic, and shake my head. I **had** a background in kickboxing and wrestling, but I've become just as passive agressive as the best of 'em, at times.

I wonder if aikido will eventually stop breeding that?

Best,
Ron (probably shouldn't blame aikido for my own faults...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-20-2008, 04:25 PM   #30
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Matthew, I wanted to speak about this a bit---internal skill is both intuitive and counter-intuitive at the same time. It is paradoxical. The big issue---in the beginning, at least---is that you have to quite literally re-learn how to use the body.

It is intuitive because exploring the body is inherently a deeply personal adventure. It certainly IS about looking inward, trusting your body, and learning to be honest with yourself. Words can be used to describe what you (approximately) feel, but ultimately, the kinesthetic experience is something that can never fully be communicated. As such, the task of the IMA student is to interpret what certain advice means on a physical, biomechanical level, within their own body.

But it is counter-intuitive because re-learning how to use the body means going against what we already know. IME, there are two issues that make self-study of IMA extremely problematic, if not outright impossible:

The first is that IMA involves not simply refining skills we already have, but it involves learning totally new skills. Thus we have no frame of reference for what precisely we should be doing. IME/ IMO, internal skill involves developing conscious control over biomechanical functions that normally are controlled subconsciously. Since these functions are normally subconscious, we quite literally have no intellectual concept of how to engage them, let alone what these functions can do. The various mental imagery and meditative techniques associated with IMA training---particularly all the "intention" talk---is designed to engage the subconscious and activate those latent abilities. (In time, as the student becomes familiar with these various abilities, they can discard the mental tricks and engage the function directly.)

The second issue is that we all have various bad habits that impede our practice that we are often unaware of, as well as misperceptions of what is or isn't a correct habit. IME, good form is the first step in developing internal skill, and if someone did have perfect posture/alignment/etc, they probably would intuit a baseline of internal skill rather quickly. (The "external-to-internal" paradigm that many JMAs use is to developed good form, and then use the personal insight and sensitive granted by that form to guide internal development.) But noone has perfect form, and as I said, most people have in fact a poor understanding of proper bio-mechanics. Without someone to point out these unseen issues---ie, a teacher---at best these habits will slow down progress, but at worst, the student might start reinforcing their bad habits and block any progress at all. Personally, I view the "it must be felt" sentiment as being less about feeling what others are doing, and more about having a teacher who can feel what you're doing, and can correct what you're doing physically.
Timothy,
Great post! Thank you. I found that very helpful.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 08-20-2008, 05:09 PM   #31
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post

O Snude y-soune lyk a goose
Ichot be a rabyd vertyng moose
O sowne that verteth syc a blyster
A rabyd moose y-bitte my syster.

-Anon. Margarinalia Codex Digitalis
I had a music teacher mention this instrument once. I always wondered why anyone would want an instrument that sounded like a goose.
My only disagreement would (possibly) be with the idea that we always begin from an idea and progress to intent. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to diminish your point; I think it represents the vast majority of formal learning (my chosen occupation due to the fact that I believe so much in the idea).

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-20-2008, 06:00 PM   #32
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I tried many groups. I tried to take light ukemi, fully resistive ukemi, to just relax, to concentrate on my center, to flow, to be a dummy to be be thrown after attacking, to be "live" and make adjustments as I attacked, to let bjj people just randomly attack me, to trying aikido with kung fu type attacks, you name it, I probably tried it.

Rob
but I'd bet you have not tried aikido with folks who do aerial scissor kicks like vovinam.
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Old 08-20-2008, 06:44 PM   #33
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Just seems kind of funny ... you have people who have experienced the IMA version of "aiki" saying basically the same thing ... it's different and you have to train differently to get the skills. And then, you have all the people who haven't experienced the IMA version of "aiki" saying just train more in what you're doing or do some heavy work.

So, I guess the decision is yours for which you think is going to clarify the issue ...
There is an issue?

Look at this atricle by Tim Fong and Rob John (a good article BTW) on Aunkai and the first image of Akuzawa doing tenchijin. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=699
He is in the posture of bearing under load. The second diagram below it shows two arches. What do arches do? Bear loads. Their use of tension to form continuous connection through the body is simulating the virtual bearing of such a load. ACTUAL bearing of load makes those connections without any complex or virtual simulation involved.

"Weight transfer" is a real body problem in a loaded condition -- not a construct of one. Tenchijin is even DESCRIBED as simulated weight bearing in Ark's interview http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=701.

If you squat to lift a fifty or 90 pound back of cement and then lift and toss it to one side -- you just did shiko - under load. Trust me, if you toss a couple or twenty of those puppies you'll feel the "piano wire" tension all through your body, no worries.

Look at this series of descriptions of the exercises: http://unleashingfong.com/martialmov...Aunkai_Methods

Have you ever worked a post-hole digger in really hard soil in a deep hole requiring put your weight drop in to accelerate the spoons? -- You've approximated mabu.

Working the top of a ladder and needing to reach that spot JUST out of reach? So you raise the leg to prop it a toe against a wall while keeping your weight centered firmly on the ladder to get that LITTLE bit of extra distance to reach for the work in front or overhead ? Wobbling ladder bad, balance on ladder good. Congratulations -- that approximates Ashiage.

Just whacked the bejesus out of your thumb with the drywall hammer ? Wanna drive your (uninjured) fist with everything you got behind through that damn sheet of drywall (both to show it what-for AND regain the all important Symmetry of Pain )? Or try driving your fist through a sheet of drywall with your fist in contact, if you can make it go "pop" -- congratulations. You just approximated GO.

Lift a bucket of mortar to someone on the ladder pointing brick or laying block. Gee. -- Agete.

Pick up a sheet of plywood on one side, brace it over your head pivot forward to flip it over and drop it on the other side. tada -- Shintaijiku. (for this type of motion it could as easily be bags of rice, bales of cloth or better yet --- kegs of BEER.

It is not an argument -- you can simply see it. Moreover, anyone can do it -- there ain't no secret. If you do it enough, and do it to miminize effort so you are not so tired at the end of a day you are starting to learn efficient movement under load. And you get demonstrably better wiht great incentive. And do something useful into the bargain. That is the foundation.

IMA is trying to supply the lack of plain old lack of whole-body hard work that ALL martial traditions grew out of. Maybe even successfully, but that's the source of the lack they are addressing. Most people doing martial arts these days are urbanites, and the likelihood of having a a significant experience of heavy physical labor is very, very low unless they like it or have no otehr choice,m and let's face it martial arts are for most people a lifestyle choice and most people doing that kind of work these days don't think in terms like "lifestyle." Having a foot in both worlds is an increasing aberration.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-20-2008, 06:57 PM   #34
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Dan answered this idea far better than I could have.
And is reputed to be fabulously talented, which I even believe to be true -- and illustrates my point for me, again. Could .. there... be... a connection .. between fabulous physical talent and a hard physical foundation ????

Quote:
Since I was brought up by a farm boy turned contractor, into a family of contractors, taught how to carry and manage loads like shoveling all day, carrying 100lb shingles up a ladder, or bags of mortar or brick, long before I got out, I learned to do everything you just mentioned. I learned a much more practical means of shoveling and carrying than most guys ever would and used more lower leg and back power. Add to that- that I lived in the Gym mostly power lifting and wrestling for fun.
None...of which prepared me for meeting a little man from Japan with a different idea. Which he kept saying to me was "Danny...different" while showing me things to do with my body. And none of that I truly got till I STOPPED lifting and started training solo to change my body.
The example cited cannot from his personal history disprove the point that the heavy work is the foundation. The Golden Gate Bridge may not seem primarily a mass foundation structure like the pyramid -- but then you get a upclose peek at the ANCHORS of those monster cables -- and whoo boy! They may be hidden from view -- but they are there or the whole thing doesn't work.

Many young men learn to work hard but not work smart. That takes time too, like in martial art. Mindless lifting doesn't do a soul or body any good. MINDFUL lifting on the other hand is whole different stripe of zebra. People who start that kind of work OLDER tend to learn to work smarter as they learn to work harder .

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-20-2008 at 07:00 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:30 PM   #35
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I think the decision is yours to decide what clarifies your issues for you.
That.also denies any empirical findings from a set group out looking. Aikiweb as a community started looking into this three years ago.
group a (aikiweb)
I can have any four guys lift and twist and turn or strike and test it against
group b (internal guys)
Four others doing it internally
and they will all observationally lift, twist, and turn.
No problem.

Then I can have them do a series of tests that can and has demonstrated one set -group b- (the internally trained guys) are doing things differently in their bodies that group a cannot do. Further, upon hands on experience group a (aikiweb) has determined 100% that thy are converting to training this way or pursuing it in whatever fashion they can manage.

If one were actually concerned with truth, one might find it odd that no one from group a, (aikiweb), having trained with group b., has come back and said "yup! I was doing that all along. Further, under certain martial testing, all have seemed to agree it is more of, or even THEE aiki they were looking for.

Since it is right now either a 100% or very, very close to that-conversion rate of group a switching over to group b's internal training based methods. Or if not due to difficulties, they at least openly acknowledge the superiority of the method. And this is on on actual experience.

It began small, and it certainly keeps growing person by person. It is simply...truth. That group a those who didn't know or never trained this way, have completely converted to believing in internal power as THEE way to improve their aikido and overall martial game. They consider it a superior way to train.
So...some might look at group a- those still lifting, turning, twisting with weights and externally doing aikido and say that as a whole they are talking like flat earth believers, rather then a group truly considering alternates to what they currently know.

It is interesting that out from among themselves right here at aikiweb, they themselves as a community just keep on embracing upon contact-internal training. One after another, after another.
This doesn't even take into account folks from ebudo or from some internal Chinese martial art boards who...magically..having trained this way and felt it, have made the same findings.

I find it odd to see people not only accepting it, thats fine, but not even ackowledging the incredibly strange conversion rate. In any social group-study, or sport training method study -these new and burgeoning findings would be off the charts.

For someone claiming to be interested in truth or empirical evidence, or personal testing of a training method, or those in search of truth in this movement-It's starting to read like simple denial, of any potential for truth at all.
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:35 PM   #36
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

I am a convert.
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Old 08-20-2008, 07:43 PM   #37
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And is reputed to be fabulously talented, which I even believe to be true -- and illustrates my point for me, again. Could .. there... be... a connection .. between fabulous physical talent and a hard physical foundation ????

The example cited cannot from his personal history disprove the point that the heavy work is the foundation. The Golden Gate Bridge may not seem primarily a mass foundation structure like the pyramid -- but then you get a upclose peek at the ANCHORS of those monster cables -- and whoo boy! They may be hidden from view -- but they are there or the whole thing doesn't work.

Many young men learn to work hard but not work smart. That takes time too, like in martial art. Mindless lifting doesn't do a soul or body any good. MINDFUL lifting on the other hand is whole different stripe of zebra. People who start that kind of work OLDER tend to learn to work smarter as they learn to work harder .
This almost completely reverses the point I made in rebutting your post on another thread. Was this intentional?
You have stated
Quote:
If you want something more "gym-like" than warehouse, construction or farmwork maybe kettlebells -- but there really is no substitute for dealing with large loads like ungainly bales or sacks of stuff or that have long wobbly awkward moment arms quite like moving lumber or sheets of plywood or drywall by yourself
To which I replied
Quote:
If you tried, you could not be more perfectly...wrong.

Since I was brought up by a farm boy turned contractor, into a family of contractors, taught how to carry and manage loads like shoveling all day, carrying 100lb shingles up a ladder, or bags of mortar or brick, long before I got out, I learned to do everything you just mentioned. I learned a much more practical means of shoveling and carrying than most guys ever would and used more lower leg and back power. Add to that- that I lived in the Gym mostly power lifting and wrestling for fun.
None...of which prepared me for meeting a little man from Japan with a different idea. Which he kept saying to me was "Danny...different" while showing me things to do with my body. And none of that I truly got till I STOPPED lifting and started training solo to change my body.
In other words a little man tossed my well tuned, hard worked, muscular and martially trained body....all over the freaking mats.
This is ridiculous. What dontcha get Erick? You completely reversed my opinion and years of hands on observation and teaching hundreds of people-not to mention hundreds of my posts to suit your point which I find to erroneous and without merit.
I find your opinion of how to train for power to be totally wrong. And would love to have you show me.
Your view of training for internal martial power, are simply wrong.
And one by one, as -you- from group a., go out and feel, keep switching over. Now in ever growing groups. Again either 100% conversion or close to it.

No one I know of is trying to talk about it to say "look at Ark" or "look at Mike." No one is making any real money, gaining anything remotely resembling a reputation worth the having. I challenge you to consider that we are only pointing to a truth that we have experienced. Thus are willing to point to anywhere it is at or can be found. As a community your own people keep pointing it out to you as well.

I think this is more in line with a group of us all playing and there is a group with enthusiasm running on ahead and really just looking back at their friends and saying "Hey look, this is great! Come look!"
Again how odd that it is not even discussed that
One, by one, they feel it, test it. they want it. that is just not seen in training of any type.
Oh well.

Last edited by DH : 08-20-2008 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:21 PM   #38
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Just seems kind of funny ... you have people who have experienced the IMA version of "aiki" saying basically the same thing ... it's different and you have to train differently to get the skills. And then, you have all the people who haven't experienced the IMA version of "aiki" saying just train more in what you're doing or do some heavy work.

So, I guess the decision is yours for which you think is going to clarify the issue ...
You get better at what you do and not at what you don't do, so you definately have to practice something which engages the center in order to know how to power your movements by it. I don't think anyone would say not to check something useful out like all the IMA stuff coming to light. If you have the time and access, I think everyone would say check it out.
As for the matter of heavy lifting activities and aiki:
I work in construction and most people know how to use their muscles and not hurt their back. That's very close to the general extent of it, I would presume, so I can understand your skepticism there. And just to be clear: I'm not saying we all should just do more of the same to learn aiki. Learning revolves heavily around the idea of cross-referencing.
My Take on Aikido in terms of behavior:
Assuming I have some understanding of what aiki is, it could be described as a principle for coordinating the body for the purpose of moving an unwieldly force; that is not based in muscular effort. In a sense, muscles serve a coordinative function more than much anything else because it is the posture of the bones which allows for the greatest brunt of the force to be delivered and received. At least for me, that's a central point from which I intend all my technical Aikido training take shape from. After that it's things like "ki-tricks:" finding a way to make someone pushing on me feel like they're pushing against a wall; I feel like they're pushing against the ground...when I'm doing it. It's not always so easy, particularly the less I train and the more I use my muscles day after day (my wife doesn't mind the trade-off ). Today however I did think to try and engage my center/hara and relax my body as I roto-hammered through part of a support footing. I had better control and power over a greater range of angle of attacks (certainly tired less quickly at any rate). Beyond my grip efforts, I moved the hammer around by moving my center as best I could. I know I tensed my shoulders quite a bit toward the end in particular. I often think along these lines when I'm cutting things too. Everything with a little in/yo consideration becomes a little easier: quicker and a little more powerful per effort made. I'm not good at whatever it is I call aiki, but it makes a profound difference when it appears I've done it.
That said I have no experience with any IMA people yet. Until I can meet with people who can reveal a deeper sense of aiki, I'm stuck with my own intuitions based on whatever it is I've learned so far.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:46 PM   #39
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

I'm sure those of you who are arguing about "how to get aiki" are aware that "ai" means harmonizing and "ki" refers to life force. I'm sure you are also aware that "do" refers to the "way" or the path.

Each of these terms comes from the Chinese. Ki is Qi in chinese and "do" is Tao.

The Tao, in my opinion (and each of us has his/her opinion based on their experiences, insights and results) is a passage that is unexplainable and unknowing. Though, you internally "you know" when you are not on the path.

Given the fact that ki/qi is the life force...all of us have it...

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:52 PM   #40
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone would say not to check something useful out like all the IMA stuff coming to light. If you have the time and access, I think everyone would say check it out.
That hasn't been my experience, but I remain cautiously optimistic..

Rob
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:07 PM   #41
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
I'm sure those of you who are arguing about "how to get aiki" are aware that "ai" means harmonizing and "ki" refers to life force. I'm sure you are also aware that "do" refers to the "way" or the path.

Each of these terms comes from the Chinese. Ki is Qi in chinese and "do" is Tao.

The Tao, in my opinion (and each of us has his/her opinion based on their experiences, insights and results) is a passage that is unexplainable and unknowing. Though, you internally "you know" when you are not on the path.

Given the fact that ki/qi is the life force...all of us have it...
I disagree entirely with this definition. In computer science for example there is a the difference between a composite and an aggregate. Looking at aiki as a composite is a mistake in depth which makes it a bit ironic in that aiki also was used to describe the okuden level of a sword system (and okugi means "depth").

I keep reading this same surface level description of ai and ki, and that's just not what aiki means when you put it together - especially in the martial arts context.

It reminds me of the difference between keiko and renshu. They both mean practice. But keiko has the meaning to practice in such a way that you get in touch with original mind/intuition.

Rob
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:18 PM   #42
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This almost completely reverses the point I made in rebutting your post on another thread. Was this intentional?
No. I quite specifically said that handling awkward loads MINDFULLY leads to good things. As opposed to merely reveling in the reckless power of youthful, mindless energy -- unconcerned with efficiency -- as is typical of most young men. Even they might learn that way if regularly forced to work while plum wore out.

I knew a wiry little Seabee could take sheets of drywall up a ladder like a squirrel. I have no problem seeing the wiry Japanese guy mopping the floor with you. It ain't about strength -- its about something that starts just past strength. His body was smarter than yours at that point. Learning the alphabet was necessary to writing "War and Peace" -- it was not sufficient to do so, however.

Anything can be done badly or mindlessly. Some start doing things mindfully because it is in their nature. Others are led to it by wisdom, example or circumstance. Some never are. Like anything else. Sounds like you had an example.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-20-2008 at 09:26 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #43
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
That hasn't been my experience, but I remain cautiously optimistic..

Rob
I think there is good reason to be optimistic. More and more, folks with an open and research oriented mindset are looking or making plans to get out and check it out. I remain very confident that folks will continue just as they have been doing-test it, and end up adopting this training back into their art.

I think all of us- once we can get away from worrying about who is right, and on to focusing and caring about what is right, allows the personaility aspects; rank, style, loyalty through good friendships, or worse wearing blinders about our arts etc, to go away and to 'look fresh" at material presented and just play.
Once we get folks to do that-you know what happens next. "Hey....thats veeery useful, how'd you do that again?" And it's one more who can go back and reinvigorate their own art-whatever that may be on their own terms.
So, yeah, I am optimistic.
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:56 PM   #44
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I disagree entirely with this definition. In computer science for example there is a the difference between a composite and an aggregate. Looking at aiki as a composite is a mistake in depth which makes it a bit ironic in that aiki also was used to describe the okuden level of a sword system (and okugi means "depth").

I keep reading this same surface level description of ai and ki, and that's just not what aiki means when you put it together - especially in the martial arts context.

It reminds me of the difference between keiko and renshu. They both mean practice. But keiko has the meaning to practice in such a way that you get in touch with original mind/intuition.

Rob
Pretty established historical fact. Qi/Ki is "life force" Tao is chinese for do. Read any books on taoism. Read any definition of Ai Ki do as separate characters.

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:18 PM   #45
Erick Mead
 
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That.also denies any empirical findings from a set group out looking.
You have a queer use of the word "empirical."

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Am. Heritage Dict. -- EMPIRICAL wrote:
Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis. b. Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws. 2. Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.
In other words, "empirical" relates to testing a defined principle that makes a prediction that can falsify the principle if it fails.

SOOoo define your principle and tells us what it predicts, how you would test that prediction and if it fails how it will falsify your principle.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
a series of tests that can and has demonstrated one set -group b- (the internally trained guys) are doing things differently in their bodies that group a cannot do.
I've just watched two weeks of coverage of any number of people from all over the world doing all SORTS of things with their bodies that I either can't imagine doing or certainly can't do to that degree. What does that mean? As in this context -- not much.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Further, upon hands on experience group a (aikiweb) has determined 100% that thy are converting to training this way or pursuing it in whatever fashion they can manage....Since it is right now either a 100% or very, very close to that-conversion rate of group a switching over to group b's internal training based methods. It began small, and it certainly keeps growing person by person. It is simply...truth. That group a those who didn't know or never trained this way, have completely converted to believing in internal power as THEE way to improve their aikido and overall martial game. They consider it a superior way to train. ...It is interesting that out from among themselves right here at aikiweb, they themselves as a community just keep on embracing upon contact-internal training. One after another, after another.
This doesn't even take into account folks from ebudo or from some internal Chinese martial art boards who...magically..having trained this way and felt it, have made the same findings.
I find it odd to see people not only accepting it, thats fine, but not even acknowledging the incredibly strange conversion rate. In any social group-study, or sport training method study -these new and burgeoning findings would be off the charts.
Eric Hoffer, that "know nothing" longshoreman said it better than I can. So here ya go:
Quote:
Hoffer "The True Believer wrote:
The true believer is everywhere on the march, and both by converting and antagonizing he is shaping the world in his own image. And whether we are to line up with him or against him, it is well that we should know all we can concerning his nature and potentialities....
...
The urge to escape our real self is also an urge to escape the rational and the obvious. The refusal to see ourselves as we are develops a distaste for facts and cold logic. There is no hope for the frustrated in the actual and the possible. Salvation can come to them only from the miraculous, which seeps through a crack in the iron wall of inexorable reality. They ask to be deceived. ... They are easily persuaded and led.
Quote:
Hoffer,"The Passionate state of Mind" wrote:
A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self.
...
When we believe ourselves in possession of the only truth, we are likely to be indifferent to common everyday truths.

...Add a few drops of venom to a half truth and you have an absolute truth.

... You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-20-2008 at 10:20 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:05 AM   #46
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Anything can be done badly or mindlessly. Some start doing things mindfully because it is in their nature. Others are led to it by wisdom, example or circumstance. Some never are.
Yep, couldn't agree more that there are people who do things badly or mindlessly. Unfortunately, some don't take the time to experience their mindlessness firsthand. Sad for them because as the years speed by them, so do the people who are training.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:14 AM   #47
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
I'm sure those of you who are arguing about "how to get aiki" are aware that "ai" means harmonizing and "ki" refers to life force. I'm sure you are also aware that "do" refers to the "way" or the path.

Each of these terms comes from the Chinese. Ki is Qi in chinese and "do" is Tao.

The Tao, in my opinion (and each of us has his/her opinion based on their experiences, insights and results) is a passage that is unexplainable and unknowing. Though, you internally "you know" when you are not on the path.

Given the fact that ki/qi is the life force...all of us have it...
That expresses the most basic, first year level view of things. Really basic, straight out of the dictionary stuff. How about giving us some examples of how Ueshiba viewed "aiki" in regards to older koryu definition versus Daito ryu definition versus his own changed definition? That might help get some people on the same page when talking about revelation vs intuited aiki.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:21 AM   #48
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Pretty established historical fact. Qi/Ki is "life force" Tao is chinese for do. Read any books on taoism. Read any definition of Ai Ki do as separate characters.
I agree it's a fairly established definition that qi/ki is "life force". However, that isn't all there is to qi/ki, historically or definitively. Since you've got quite a bit of training and are teaching, can you share the other definitions from history?
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:24 AM   #49
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
That expresses the most basic, first year level view of things. Really basic, straight out of the dictionary stuff. How about giving us some examples of how Ueshiba viewed "aiki" in regards to older koryu definition versus Daito ryu definition versus his own changed definition? That might help get some people on the same page when talking about revelation vs intuited aiki.

Thanks,
Mark
Yah but that would be too easy
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:27 AM   #50
Erick Mead
 
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Re: revelation "vs" intuited aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yep, couldn't agree more that there are people who do things badly or mindlessly. Unfortunately, some don't take the time to experience their mindlessness firsthand. Sad for them because as the years speed by them, so do the people who are training.
Speeding to WHERE, exactly? If you have never been to your promised destination -- should you be in a hurry to go, and are sure you will like what you find when you get there? The travel brochures always look good. The reality is always more grimy (and often smelly, which the brochures never seem to get across). Speed has many characteristics. Among others, it blurs perception, and induces overconfidence.

I think there is even a fable on this point.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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