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Old 08-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #51
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
By complete I don't mean a set of techniques that can handle all and every situation with super human ability. But, rather all the tools needed to draw on. You don't have to go outside the art to get something. If your lacking something it isn't because Aikido doesn't have it.
I agree with this completely. from experience in the dojo,in myself,and on the street. Aikido has not shown me any holes in itself.
I have definitely found a few in my comprehension.

This isn't to say don't do something if you feel a want to. It means you don't have to do it because it is missing in aikido. Maybe it is simply missing in one's practice.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-19-2008 at 10:28 AM.

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Old 08-19-2008, 11:54 AM   #52
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this forum but; I've read alot about weather Aikido should or should not evolve and what the effects may be.

My opinion is that Aikido is constantly evolving. We as students are constantly learning and changing, therefore, our techniques change.

-The technique you learn today will be different tomorrow.
 
Old 08-19-2008, 12:17 PM   #53
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
By complete I don't mean a set of techniques that can handle all and every situation with super human ability. But, rather all the tools needed to draw on. You don't have to go outside the art to get something. If your lacking something it isn't because Aikido doesn't have it.
Kenji Tomiki, Gozo Shioda and Minoru Mochizuki often spoke about the deficiencies within the modern Aikido movements. They stated that modern Aikido was lacking, that's one the reason we have Yoseikan, Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido. It's not complete. Gozo Shioda was the closest student to O'sensei, so what makes you know more than him? No martial art is complete. They all have some deficiency. Maybe you mean it's complete for you. What's complete for one is not for the other. We will all have satisfactions that are different.

Last edited by salim : 08-19-2008 at 12:20 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2008, 12:31 PM   #54
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

From the perspective of the founder many of the dichotomies presented here would be false. Within the art are the exact lessons that are being attempted to convey.

"When anybody asks if my Aiki budo principles are taken from religion, I say, ``No.'' My true budo principles enlighten religions and lead them to completion.

Even though our Path is completely different from warrior arts of the past, it is not necessary to abandon the old ways totally. Absorb venerable traditions in Aikido by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms."

Forms in keeping with the sustainability our lives and our diversity. Not one form, one style, one type of person.

So, Salim, if you are even reading what I am writing here, your own dedicated practice will illuminate the correct direction for you. That is exactly why aikido is whole. Because you can do that without abandoning the art. That is the source of evolution. Variation among species. Not one homogenous trait.
There is plenty of room in practice for that.

So do what you gotta do. Train in your own way. Bring in whoever you want to. But don't expect that just because you think it is 'good' it will survive selection in the long run. Nature decides.
Or go start your own art and see how that stands up.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-19-2008 at 12:37 PM.

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Old 08-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #55
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Kenji Tomiki, Gozo Shioda and Minoru Mochizuki often spoke about the deficiencies within the modern Aikido movements. They stated that modern Aikido was lacking, that's one the reason we have Yoseikan, Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido. It's not complete. Gozo Shioda was the closest student to O'sensei, so what makes you know more than him? No martial art is complete. They all have some deficiency. Maybe you mean it's complete for you. What's complete for one is not for the other. We will all have satisfactions that are different.
But they didn't say it was missing in aikido. Just like the teachings of Christ are often lost in modern christianity It doen't mean that Jesus' message is 'not good enough'.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-19-2008 at 12:39 PM.

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Old 08-19-2008, 12:45 PM   #56
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Carson Cupps wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this forum but; I've read alot about weather Aikido should or should not evolve and what the effects may be.

My opinion is that Aikido is constantly evolving. We as students are constantly learning and changing, therefore, our techniques change.

-The technique you learn today will be different tomorrow.
If evolution is a fact, as people are tending to agree here, than it isn't really a choice, it happens of it's own accord.
And, then it stands that aikido would be constantly evolving, unless one believes that evolution only occurs in post-generational-jumps; which would be pretty hard to prove.
And so then we can be sure of one thing, if aikido is changing us as we practice it is certainly a piece of evolution of the species, not just evolution in the art.

We might want to notice how it is changing us as people. Then take a look around and see if we notice those changes anywhere else. That would be most anthroplogical.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 08-19-2008, 06:54 PM   #57
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
"Even though our Path is completely different from warrior arts of the past, it is not necessary to abandon the old ways totally. Absorb venerable traditions in Aikido by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms."
"Moreover, if the human mind once takes charge of water and fire, in accord the principles of 'Water-Fire, Yin-Yang", when your enemy attacks with water, you strike with water, with fire then hit with fire. Today, it is important to train thinking all this in terms of modern scientific warfare." The Boss.

 
Old 08-19-2008, 08:30 PM   #58
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"Moreover, if the human mind once takes charge of water and fire, in accord the principles of 'Water-Fire, Yin-Yang", when your enemy attacks with water, you strike with water, with fire then hit with fire. Today, it is important to train thinking all this in terms of modern scientific warfare." The Boss.
I agree. Neutralizing an attack while preserving the attacker is best achieved through essential training.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-19-2008 at 08:34 PM.

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Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 08-19-2008, 10:29 PM   #59
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Kenji Tomiki, Gozo Shioda and Minoru Mochizuki often spoke about the deficiencies within the modern Aikido movements. They stated that modern Aikido was lacking, that's one the reason we have Yoseikan, Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido. It's not complete. Gozo Shioda was the closest student to O'sensei, so what makes you know more than him? No martial art is complete. They all have some deficiency. Maybe you mean it's complete for you. What's complete for one is not for the other. We will all have satisfactions that are different.
Now, now, if you disagree there is no reason to get hot under the collar. I think their criticism is directed at how Aikido was being taught and maintained, instead of at Aikido as an art. They all loved Aikido and cared for it. Stan Pranin wrote that he believed modern Aikido was the result not of O'Sensei but of his uchideshi. Shioda was what, pre-world war Aikido, and continued that tradition.

Mochizuki also pre-world war has a crazy number rank and six ranks above 5 dan. He is 10th dan in Aikido, IMAF. He started his own, style of Aikido-may not be considered Aikido. So what he did was to create his own art, having spot on Aikido techniques done in a modern Aikido way. And Kano sent him to O'Sensei. And Mochizuki sword take disarms and such apply Aikido techniques. I wonder why that is? Why would Mochizuki apply Aikido? Mochizuki was the guy who could compete in all the Olympic events of Japanese martial arts. What art did he concentrate in, Aikido.

These two styles of Aikido, like Tomiki and Mochizuki Aikido, are build around Aikido. Aikido is the main ingredient. Shioda didn't do what Mochizuki or Tomiki did create composite arts, he was committed to Aikido. All these men ended up with stressing Aikido. Aikido had to have something for Tomiki and Mochizuki to comprise other art with Aikido and not the other way around. And be dedicated to Aikido.

Look up why Shioda, Tomiki, and Mochizuki why all where interested in Aikido. Look up what they thought of Aikido the first time they seen O'Sensei. Tomiki, and Mochizuki have composite Aikidos.




You said, "What's complete for one is not for the other. We will all have satisfactions that are different." If your are reinventing the wheel, then it is true. We are not taking about personal philosophy or choice that is best to take individually. We are discussing the art of Aikido evolving, that has its own defined constitution. You may not understand or agree with that constitution, or the idea of a constitution (form), but never the less there is an identifiable constitution that defines Aikido. In Aikido, lays a universal law at higher levels of evolution within Aikido, it does become formless, defining also as complete. Even that is the same idea Bruce Lee used and felt strongly about. That formlessness existed even before Bruce Lee was speaking out about it. Here we are full circle, Aikido like a circle, it is complete. With or without bunnies.

Last edited by Buck : 08-19-2008 at 10:35 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2008, 11:01 PM   #60
salim
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Now, now, if you disagree there is no reason to get hot under the collar. I think their criticism is directed at how Aikido was being taught and maintained, instead of at Aikido as an art. They all loved Aikido and cared for it. Stan Pranin wrote that he believed modern Aikido was the result not of O'Sensei but of his uchideshi. Shioda was what, pre-world war Aikido, and continued that tradition.

Mochizuki also pre-world war has a crazy number rank and six ranks above 5 dan. He is 10th dan in Aikido, IMAF. He started his own, style of Aikido-may not be considered Aikido. So what he did was to create his own art, having spot on Aikido techniques done in a modern Aikido way. And Kano sent him to O'Sensei. And Mochizuki sword take disarms and such apply Aikido techniques. I wonder why that is? Why would Mochizuki apply Aikido? Mochizuki was the guy who could compete in all the Olympic events of Japanese martial arts. What art did he concentrate in, Aikido.

These two styles of Aikido, like Tomiki and Mochizuki Aikido, are build around Aikido. Aikido is the main ingredient. Shioda didn't do what Mochizuki or Tomiki did create composite arts, he was committed to Aikido. All these men ended up with stressing Aikido. Aikido had to have something for Tomiki and Mochizuki to comprise other art with Aikido and not the other way around. And be dedicated to Aikido.

Look up why Shioda, Tomiki, and Mochizuki why all where interested in Aikido. Look up what they thought of Aikido the first time they seen O'Sensei. Tomiki, and Mochizuki have composite Aikidos.

You said, "What's complete for one is not for the other. We will all have satisfactions that are different." If your are reinventing the wheel, then it is true. We are not taking about personal philosophy or choice that is best to take individually. We are discussing the art of Aikido evolving, that has its own defined constitution. You may not understand or agree with that constitution, or the idea of a constitution (form), but never the less there is an identifiable constitution that defines Aikido. In Aikido, lays a universal law at higher levels of evolution within Aikido, it does become formless, defining also as complete. Even that is the same idea Bruce Lee used and felt strongly about. That formlessness existed even before Bruce Lee was speaking out about it. Here we are full circle, Aikido like a circle, it is complete. With or without bunnies.
No anger here. You said it exactly, yes I love Aikido too, but I agree with them in there ideas of what is lacking in modern Aikido. Hence the evolution will continue.

"Aikido Masters Volume 1, Shioda Sensei said today's Aikido was dimensionless, empty of content and nothing more than an imitation of the real thing."

"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that, wow!
 
Old 08-21-2008, 03:42 AM   #61
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

If a controversial understanding of aikido also means an evolution let me start with a phrase that aikido contains only 12 techniques. By name: Irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi, kaiten-nage, shiho-nage, ude-kime-nage, tenchi-nage, koshi-nage, juji-nage, ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo and yonkyo. On purpose I do not count a group of techniques called kokyu-nage which I accept for fun, relax and to practice my ukemi. What do these 12 techniques have in common? Their execution does not require putting uke out of balance. Before a throw, uke is supposed to be on his toes. Herein aikido differs from other martial arts.

It is a simple idea. When you raise yourself on your toes, your body stays straight to keep balance and your hands are powerless. If there is a solid grip established, it is easy to throw someone from that body position. It is apparent that it could be a deadly action, since an uke could be thrown directly on his head breaking his neck. Aikido can be a real threat and this why I consider it as a lethal weapon. It is similar to a gun intended to intimidate an aggressor and not to kill.

Let's look at it from another side. It was Founder's intention not to include any offensive techniques in his art. He never considered aikido to be a fighting art, but only a unique self-defense art. In aikido there is no preparation, no advance, no time for thinking but a trained reflex followed by a technique. The most importantly that action must end any confrontation. There are only two options; to intimidate the aggressor or to kill him.

There are consequences of such thinking. In my view Morihei Ueshiba's development is still unfinished. This possibly makes me an outsider to the aikido community.

I have been focusing on six techniques I found most applicable in real life situations. Each one of them is allocated only one attack. It is actually nothing new and it represents Koichi Tohei's Kitei Taigi: shomen-uchi-kokyu-nage (irimi-nage), yokomen-uchi-shiho-nage, mune-tsuki-kote-oroshi (kote-gaeshi), katate-dori-ikkyo, kata-dori-nikyo and ushiro-tekubi-dori-sankyo (katate-kosa-dori-sankyo). I split each technique in 3 parts to practice them independently. In order to perfect each part it is necessary to allot them different times.

I have developed a specific approach to an attack based on the notes mentioned earlier. Uke's attack always resembles a knife's attack made from a static position and from a very close distance. In this case we take in consideration three cuts and three stubs. It is crucial to achieve two goals at the same time - not to be touched and to establish solid contact with the uke. In order to accomplish that I suggest dodging with a small body movement and following with a forearm circulation (ude-mawashi). We want to establish contact with the uke by grabbing his wrist (a thumb and a middle finger). You have to use the same method for all attacks. Please note that it is the only moment when you can use your opponent's strength of attack to your advantage. Your goal is to stretch out the attacking hand in order to be able to bend the elbow and/or the wrist. By the way, in order to practice this way of dodging, I have designed and constructed a self attacking punching robot.

In order to practice the second part of each technique you can start by grabbing uke's wrist from any side. This exercise is similar to judo's uchi-komi. As I mentioned before your goal is to put uke on his toes and to ensure it I had to slightly modify the above mentioned techniques. Following the modifications all techniques are finished in the same position. It is important to notice that all pins do not impose any pain to uke, but they cause an expected his subconscious body reaction to joint stretching limitation. The final movement is based on a shoulder's pin.

As a result of the second part of each technique tori grabs uke's arm which looks like he is holding up a sword. It is a very uncomfortable position for the aggressor and gives you an opportunity to make him realize seriousness of the next move consequences. It is also the essence of the art of aikido. You are not going to hurt him and only send him a message; similar to a policeman firing his gun into the air.

I believe that my approach gives answers to some difficult aikidokas' questions: "Why do we call aikido a peaceful martial art?", "How do we use our opponent's strength in aikido?" and finally, "How to deal with attacks by feet, knees, elbows and heads?". The last questions may need some explanations. Without a doubt there is no aikido without a successful dodging, regardless of the kind of attack. Attacks without the use of hands make uke's hands powerless and make it easy for you to raise uke's inactive hand and to pin his shoulder to the desired final position.

Finally, the question remains: "What does aikido mean to me?". Is it a self-defense art? Not really. A self-defense skill is a consequence of practicing aikido, but it does not represent a value by itself. Aikido gives me a sense of responsibility to create calm and peaceful environment and also forces me to prevent any violence around. In its core it is a real face of Pacifism which is senseless without the ability to protect its values.

Last edited by observer : 08-21-2008 at 03:56 AM.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 04:48 AM   #62
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Maciej,

I have two exercises that might change your views on the 'how to use your partner's strength' question.
Ofcourse you need to feel it for yourself.
When I felt those things, it made me think differently about aikido.

Exercise 1:
Stretch your arm in front of you at shoulder hight.
Let someone grab the arm from under it with a strong posture.
Try to bring your hand to your belly in a big circle.
You will notice that when you muscle your way down, your partner will be able to easily hold your arm.
You should try to put your focus into your partners body (ex: its shoulder, back, knees, ...).
Then generate the weight from your feet into his body.
Your partner will feel as if a weigth of over 100+ kilo is consentrated on that specific point.
This will brake the structure of your partner (unbalance him) and you will be able to get your arm down.

Exercise 2:
Stand against the wall with heels and shoulders touching it.
Your partner pushes your chest/shoulders.
Try to move from the wall without touching your partner.
You will need to focus on your partner center.
The power that he gives you trying to push you against the wall will be redirected into his own system, braking his structure.
Giving you the possibility to move from the wall.

I have felt both exercises done to me, and was able to reproduce the second exercise in an easier version.
The most amazing about it is the way your body feels when they do these exercises. And all done with very little contact and movement.
For me, exercise 2 is a nice example of using your partner's force against him, literally.

I believe these are things that need to be rediscovered in aikido.
Other arts (IMA) have designed patterns to learn this stuff, where (most people) in aikido need to figure it out for themselves after doing a lot of techniques.
Maybe reinventing (by the masses) what it is all about is the next evolution in aikido.
 
Old 08-21-2008, 09:25 AM   #63
salim
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
If a controversial understanding of aikido also means an evolution let me start with a phrase that aikido contains only 12 techniques. By name: Irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi, kaiten-nage, shiho-nage, ude-kime-nage, tenchi-nage, koshi-nage, juji-nage, ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo and yonkyo. On purpose I do not count a group of techniques called kokyu-nage which I accept for fun, relax and to practice my ukemi. What do these 12 techniques have in common? Their execution does not require putting uke out of balance. Before a throw, uke is supposed to be on his toes. Herein aikido differs from other martial arts.

It is a simple idea. When you raise yourself on your toes, your body stays straight to keep balance and your hands are powerless. If there is a solid grip established, it is easy to throw someone from that body position. It is apparent that it could be a deadly action, since an uke could be thrown directly on his head breaking his neck. Aikido can be a real threat and this why I consider it as a lethal weapon. It is similar to a gun intended to intimidate an aggressor and not to kill.

Let's look at it from another side. It was Founder's intention not to include any offensive techniques in his art. He never considered aikido to be a fighting art, but only a unique self-defense art. In aikido there is no preparation, no advance, no time for thinking but a trained reflex followed by a technique. The most importantly that action must end any confrontation. There are only two options; to intimidate the aggressor or to kill him.

There are consequences of such thinking. In my view Morihei Ueshiba's development is still unfinished. This possibly makes me an outsider to the aikido community.

I have been focusing on six techniques I found most applicable in real life situations. Each one of them is allocated only one attack. It is actually nothing new and it represents Koichi Tohei's Kitei Taigi: shomen-uchi-kokyu-nage (irimi-nage), yokomen-uchi-shiho-nage, mune-tsuki-kote-oroshi (kote-gaeshi), katate-dori-ikkyo, kata-dori-nikyo and ushiro-tekubi-dori-sankyo (katate-kosa-dori-sankyo). I split each technique in 3 parts to practice them independently. In order to perfect each part it is necessary to allot them different times.

I have developed a specific approach to an attack based on the notes mentioned earlier. Uke's attack always resembles a knife's attack made from a static position and from a very close distance. In this case we take in consideration three cuts and three stubs. It is crucial to achieve two goals at the same time - not to be touched and to establish solid contact with the uke. In order to accomplish that I suggest dodging with a small body movement and following with a forearm circulation (ude-mawashi). We want to establish contact with the uke by grabbing his wrist (a thumb and a middle finger). You have to use the same method for all attacks. Please note that it is the only moment when you can use your opponent's strength of attack to your advantage. Your goal is to stretch out the attacking hand in order to be able to bend the elbow and/or the wrist. By the way, in order to practice this way of dodging, I have designed and constructed a self attacking punching robot.

In order to practice the second part of each technique you can start by grabbing uke's wrist from any side. This exercise is similar to judo's uchi-komi. As I mentioned before your goal is to put uke on his toes and to ensure it I had to slightly modify the above mentioned techniques. Following the modifications all techniques are finished in the same position. It is important to notice that all pins do not impose any pain to uke, but they cause an expected his subconscious body reaction to joint stretching limitation. The final movement is based on a shoulder's pin.

As a result of the second part of each technique tori grabs uke's arm which looks like he is holding up a sword. It is a very uncomfortable position for the aggressor and gives you an opportunity to make him realize seriousness of the next move consequences. It is also the essence of the art of aikido. You are not going to hurt him and only send him a message; similar to a policeman firing his gun into the air.

I believe that my approach gives answers to some difficult aikidokas' questions: "Why do we call aikido a peaceful martial art?", "How do we use our opponent's strength in aikido?" and finally, "How to deal with attacks by feet, knees, elbows and heads?". The last questions may need some explanations. Without a doubt there is no aikido without a successful dodging, regardless of the kind of attack. Attacks without the use of hands make uke's hands powerless and make it easy for you to raise uke's inactive hand and to pin his shoulder to the desired final position.

Finally, the question remains: "What does aikido mean to me?". Is it a self-defense art? Not really. A self-defense skill is a consequence of practicing aikido, but it does not represent a value by itself. Aikido gives me a sense of responsibility to create calm and peaceful environment and also forces me to prevent any violence around. In its core it is a real face of Pacifism which is senseless without the ability to protect its values.
I think the below video does a much better job of demonstrating, "Reverse Intimidation." It's definitively more comprehensive and applicable. Simple ideas put into motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5KLiDMzuTU&NR=1
 
Old 08-21-2008, 10:40 AM   #64
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I aikido contains only 12 techniques. By name: Irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi, kaiten-nage, shiho-nage, ude-kime-nage, tenchi-nage, koshi-nage, juji-nage, ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo and yonkyo. On purpose I do not count a group of techniques called kokyu-nage which I accept for fun, relax and to practice my ukemi.
Would you mind to tell us why usual techniques like gokyo and rokyo or the otoshi (aiki and sumi) are not included in your list?

Quote:
It was Founder's intention not to include any offensive techniques in his art. He never considered aikido to be a fighting art, but only a unique self-defense art. In aikido there is no preparation, no advance, no time for thinking but a trained reflex followed by a technique. The most importantly that action must end any confrontation. There are only two options; to intimidate the aggressor or to kill him.
Really?

Quote:
By the way, in order to practice this way of dodging, I have designed and constructed a self attacking punching robot.
Very interesting. Can you upload a video of this self attacking punching robot in action?, does he/she/it follows Asimov's laws of robotics?

 
Old 08-21-2008, 11:26 AM   #65
salim
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Would you mind to tell us why usual techniques like gokyo and rokyo or the otoshi (aiki and sumi) are not included in your list?

Really?

Very interesting. Can you upload a video of this self attacking punching robot in action?, does he/she/it follows Asimov's laws of robotics?
Great answers! You really have me laughing. I was thinking the same thing. Strange logic to self defense.
 
Old 09-06-2008, 10:33 PM   #66
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

The methodology of live training has become more apparent with the newer, more diverse Aikidoka. We are seeing an increase in those practitioners who have a strong desire to incorporate this method. We also, are see a strong desire to incorporate, what I like to call, Aikido techniques on the ground (on your your back). This evolutionary process is being incorporated for those who have the desire.

Roy Dean has exemplified an excellent example of this in his most recent video entitled, “The Art of the Wrist Lock.” http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/..._the_wristlock What's interesting about the video is the methods used in sections, 0:35-0:37 and 1:05 of the video. If you pause these sections and analysis closely, the principles of Ikkyo are used. The smooth transition that so many Aikidoka enjoy is executed from a standing position to the ground.

When incorporating these methods, “Aikido on the ground” with live training, we see a natural progression of evolution in the making. There are some many ways to incorporate Ikkyo, Sankyo, Nikyo and other Aikido techniques on the ground. Non traditionalist Aikidoka will greatly enjoy these methods, while the traditionalist Aikidoka will ostracize the mere mention of live training or being on the ground. The non traditionalist Aikidoka will have to continue to advocate these principles and propagate open mindedness.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 04:02 AM   #67
Michael Douglas
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I WANT TO SEE THE ROBOT!
I'm sure I'm not alone ...

Show me the robot!

On the other hand, I like Maciej's 'intimidation' comments and I feel them close to a truth.
He has also formulated a training framework which seems 'clear'; without confusion. This must be a good thing to start with.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 07:23 AM   #68
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

In an extremely traditional dojo I like to visit in Japan, when someone hits say yondan, they will typically ask their sandan training partners after class to start with some basic aikido attack and then try ANYTHING to hit or bring them to ground during the execution of the technique they are trying to do. Things tend to get more LIVE after that. I think that doing such things earlier in your aikido career is not necessarily "aikido evolution" - but I can see it evolving you as a martial artist in general. If you can get to yondan ability sooner then great. That's been my focus in terms of "the evolution of aikido". YMMV

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 09-07-2008 at 07:30 AM.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 08:59 AM   #69
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Onegaishimasu. As soon as you bring in competition, something gets lost.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
 
Old 09-07-2008, 11:49 AM   #70
DH
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Aikido simply needs to adopt internal power / aiki-it is *thee* single greatest advantage, and is all but lost or else exhbited in a diluted state in the art. If it adopts more live training on top of that via jujutsu It will become one of the most powerful arts of the world.
Until it does it will forever be victim of other arts superior technical training, or internal power / aiki approaches.
It's just the way it is. It's really not that complicated.
Everything is a judgement based on the level of understanding of those offering opinions.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 11:59 AM   #71
DH
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. As soon as you bring in competition, something gets lost.

In gassho,

Mark
Without competition so much is lost.
Martial arts are about competition, testing, vying, and winning over the enemy.When we made them a hobby, we, failed the arts.
Some of finest, most well balanced men, I have met were grapplers. Some of the weirdest most passive aggressive types and outright abusers, I have met were in the DO arts. Arts that are unchallenged. Why? They can get away with things they can never get away with otherwise. It has been noted way back in Japan. That opinion is not "news."

The best spirituallity is the one that gets played out, tested and tempered in the trenches...not in the pews.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 01:11 PM   #72
Mark Uttech
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Onegaishimasu. Aikido does not 'need' to develop inner power. anymore than a baby needs to develop its legs before it even attempts to start walking. Practicing aikido develops aikido.

In gassho

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
 
Old 09-07-2008, 02:41 PM   #73
rob_liberti
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. Aikido does not 'need' to develop inner power. anymore than a baby needs to develop its legs before it even attempts to start walking. Practicing aikido develops aikido.

In gassho

Mark
I'm not with you on this.

I'm guessing that you are making a point about "trying" to do...
Assuming that it is common knowledge that a baby does develop its legs before it walks. (That's why a newborn cannot bear weight on it feet yet.)

Aikido doesn't need to develop anything... But the entire point of the thread is the evolution of aikido.

To suggest that aikido has inner power is not wrong per se. But, to suggest that people in aikido do not have to TRY to develop internal power is so obviously wrong. Simply consider how many in aikido have power like the founder? It could be EVERYBODY, but they will each have to TRY to do it.

Rob
 
Old 09-07-2008, 03:52 PM   #74
DH
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
.....Practicing aikido develops aikido.

In gassho

Mark
Actually I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.
Come to think of it. Every...single...person... That has ever felt me from aikido wanted to learn how to do aikido-this way. Meaning?
With aiki.
Were we to meet, or you to meet several others I can name, you would too.
The truth of what I am saying is both self-evident and inescapable. Not only does training in aikido not develop real aiki-in any focused method, much of the results of the training models I have seen have presented to the world men with skills that are developed in the wrong direction. Thus their bodies have demontrated clearly that their teachers could not possibly help someone do aiki.
Our argument is not negative or demeaning. It is hopeful and rewarding. You now have Ikeda, Ledyard and now another accomplished 6th dan now realizing it as well. When we add to that go-dans, yon dans and san dans with Dojos who are adopting this type of training as well, we can map out a fairly optimistic case that this will become the evolution of aikido. I'd like to think it will include more live training as well, but we'll see.

I recognize that idea presents as stark and blatent. However, the argument we are putting forth is demonstrable. Further, it has and is being repeatedly tested, and here's the good part- it's teachable in a shorter time frame. Therefore its going to prove to be self-correcting of the bad habits inculcated -from within- aikido.
In any event the men training this way are going to bring aiki back into aikido.

Last edited by DH : 09-07-2008 at 03:59 PM.
 
Old 09-07-2008, 04:21 PM   #75
Aikibu
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aikido simply needs to adopt internal power / aiki-it is *thee* single greatest advantage, and is all but lost or else exhbited in a diluted state in the art. If it adopts more live training on top of that via jujutsu It will become one of the most powerful arts of the world.
Until it does it will forever be victim of other arts superior technical training, or internal power / aiki approaches.
It's just the way it is. It's really not that complicated.
Everything is a judgement based on the level of understanding of those offering opinions.
Sorry to disagree with you again Dan but that is not my experience at all. I am positively sure internal techniques would better complete our Aikido... However our training and techniques are complete with perhaps that small exception. Our philosophy is that Aikido MUST work against other Martial Arts and for the most part it does...Where in small part it does not we are free to incorporate outside experiences.

It's just that way... It's not really complicated.

Again its' the man not JUST the practice...

Ask my Forearms and the side of my head LOL. I sparred with a much younger TKD guy this weekend...He was good A Solid Base (for TKD) and man his feet were FAST. He bests the majority of folks he spars against using "just" TKD. We had a little cross training session with a few folks from other disciplines and all of them have their strengths and weaknesses technically but nothing beats kicking faster than you can blink your eye LOL

William Hazen
 

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